Ideal deadlines.

Discussion in 'Forum Games' started by Marquis, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. Marquis

    Marquis beez in the whazzit??

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    Lately, I've been a bit torn (well, more than usual) on deadlines.

    There's always that conflict between later deadlines that allow for more discussion but make a game drag uncomfortably, and earlier deadlines that in theory make for a better-flowing game at the cost of discussion time.

    Despite the push for shorter deadlines lately, part of me is thinking I've underestimated how valuable longer Day phases are to games. I mean, the main issue I've been having with shorter Days lately is determining what's an acceptable amount of time between last post and prod- I can't always expect everyone to post every day, but it really hurts a game with 5-7 irl Days to have people who post only once every 48+24graceperiod hours.

    And short Days don't exactly pressure people to post or help out more frequently as was thought. You still have those damn idlers who join games yet make, like, 2 posts in a Day phase, or who make me inactivity-replace them, costing them and the Town valuable time to catch up with each other.

    So basically, thoughts? I mean, I already have several ideas as to how to remedy the problems, but I don't want to just become stricter than I already am being.
     
  2. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    As a player I like shorter day phases personally and it seems most or a lot of people here do, I certainly prefer them to 14 day days, but that's a different topic.

    Idling is always going to be a problem, you could even make an argument that longer deadlines could cause idlers to become even more disengaged and exacerbate inactivity and replacement issues, were longer deadlines formerly used here? What I plan to use for my future games is 7 day d1's, dropping to 5 days thereafter with a 24 hour extension per replacement (unless 2 people replace out simultaneously, which I only really see happening with players who fail to confirm).
     
  3. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Short days means that people are more likely to idle, not less likely. If you have 5-day d1s and your activity requirement is 48h +24h grace you can't complain when someone gets through the phase with only two posts.
    If you want to force people to post more you either have to make activity requirements more strict or make deadlines longer (or more likely, both).

    If you think replacing people takes up too much of the town's time then the obvious solution would be to extend the game longer when a substitute happens; in NOC I seriously doubt 24 hours is enough time for them to introduce themselves and discuss anything with the other players.

    A solution for having long days not just drag on with nothing happening is to a) not even consider lynch by plurality ever (can even consider punishing town if game goes to deadline without a lynch, say by killing a random town-sided player if game goes to deadline), and b) incentivizing town to lynch faster, perhaps through something like bankable deadlines [also c) get better/more experienced mafia players to play]

    Longer deadlines mean that you have more time to weed out inactive players d1 and replace them with people that are actually going to play. Idlers being "more disengaged and exasperating inactivity and replacement issues" isn't a downside of having longer deadlines, it's an upside. Frankly if your game is both suffering from idler(s) and lacking replacements for them then you're screwed either way whether you end up trying to replace them or not.
     
  4. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    short deadlines are absolutely way better than long deadlines. i've honestly always really disliked the culture of "let's make deadlines every 3 weeks" and then the resultant "gee why did everyone lose interest in my game." NOCs and OCs should be treated the same in that when you sign up you make a commitment to be active. Activity isn't once every 48 hours, activity is at the very least once per day, more likely to be multiple times per day (if everyone followed this, there would be more to post about, no large gaps of no people talking). you absolutely should expect people to post once per day, playing mafia as per any game if something that is a commitment, and if you can't meet that commitment and you know you are going to be busy, you shouldn't sign up for a game. i would much rather have smaller games than big games, not because smaller games are more fun (they aren't) but at the very least you know the game won't disappear from the face of the earth due to idlers.

    i disagree with the above post because the thing is, it seems ok in theory, but every single game that has had long deadlines has suffered from idle people. every single game with 7+ days has literally come close to dying (see: secret society, fege's game). the incentive should be you're active or you lose (which is why i continually push for short deadlines). people have gotten away with idling for so long that i seriously think it's become a huge problem (hosts and players alike, and i'm not exempt either). we talk about the "theory" of deadlines but literally close to all games played are plagued by inactivity the longer the deadlines are. longer deadlines have never encouraged activity. you only have to look at the two games above to see that the game started out quite active and then died off due to lack of discussion being generated

    i am actually fairly convinced this is more of a "culture" thing as I've played games that have had 3 day town deadlines that worked out no problem (because everyone was active, everyone knew each other was active so everyone posted). maybe if i'm up for it i will host a short speed game with 72 hour deadlines to show that (well hopefully) it can be done.
     
  5. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    i'm sure there's a middle ground between 5-day deadlines and 3-week deadlines that is better than both

    short deadlines are fine if you're going to make everyone post every day (like I said, having harsher activity requirements is an alternative to longer deadlines) but if you want a 48h + 24h grace period you probably will either want longer deadlines or have to live with the fact that people will coast by doing almost nothing (which obviously hurts town if they end up having to lynch lurkers because that's the only way to get them out of the game)

    long deadlines won't encourage activity but they're the only way to ensure everyone will at least pretend to have some if you insist on having overly generous requirements on activity; having short deadlines + lax activity requirement is a surefire way to have at least a few people end up not really contributing
    it also gives you the time you need to find the people who are not going to contribute regularly and sub them out because a D1 sub or modkill is much less disruptive than one that happens in D3

    i think it's more likely that those games died because of a combination of long deadlines and also being really huge games as well; if your game is only going to be 3 day phases i don't think it's unreasonable to make each phase 10 days and have the game take a month total while if your game is set up to be like 8 day phases long obviously you'll need shorter deadlines so the game ends before everyone gets tired of it