You say you want the theme to improve, but you say nothing in the way of fixing it. As it stands now, the theme is simple and enjoyed by most of the channel, the main people having issues being both you and Matt. My question is how is this complicated? The only thing that I can think of is that the theme is a nonpeak with the ideology of a peak, but if anything that should be going towards it not subtracting from it. Ask anyone, including the other 3 QC members in your group. RudeStyle has expressed liking the theme at various points of the process and Pangaea already approved. Are they wrong because it's not what you think too?
Wat. I said I want the theme to improve? I said I have issues with the theme?? I've seen lots of people speak against it while playing. Your sampling size is slanted and/or biased. Simple or complex, it goes to simple more often than naught. The only complex thing is figuring out what to do beside try to kill everyone since you can't find allies for newbies. Idk what the ideology of a peak is - removing all sides other than one's own? What am I asking the other "3" QC members that I can't think of myself? I always put different minded people on themes, so why would I assume an idea is wrong which isn't my own? Unless I'm right, but that's a different matter. I know at least some of your assumptions are wrong, bringing doubt to the other ones. But eh. So the guidelines say I did everything right. Cool. I reviewed, not criticized nor suggested. When I do suggest stuff, it goes well. You could construe that you can't review without criticizing, but that feels like semantics. I made a formal assessment of the theme and put my decision, if you will. So what's the difference with criticizing? I want to say intent, but that may be a cop-out. Either way, it works.
...do you ever stop or do you just continue to push your agenda until it happens? Because you've turned a review thread into a page straight of that. Just stop, quit the crap, and do the job you were hired to do.
Huh, no. Should I bold this other part too? If the post is expected to be constructive, and you admited you didn't do it, then you are not doing it right. This reply of yours feels like you are making fun of the QC System. Semantics? This is a poor way of trying to get away without doing a proper review. It's basically running away from your obligation as a QC member.
Look, putting the bullshit aside, we're here to discuss a theme. For a nonpeak, this is probably one of the more if not the most complex nonpeak, but that being said it's simple enough to play and, with all the games I've played, the overall consensus from the average user is that the theme is enjoyed. Although, there is one thing that bothers me here. While I understand the context, this makes it appear that you want nothing to do with new people. However, if you haven't noticed, we don't have the player count to be this callous. We need to be helping everyone and playable themes, both established and new, will put us on that track. This is just an alternate spot on that road map, but differentiality is what makes a theme stand out.
I'm self-quoting my last suggestion, since it got lost in the sea of arguments on the last page. It was related to the issue that the game gets slower when Grey dies early: Also wanted to state that in the next Mafia Update, it will be possible to skip Voting Phase if no one is able to vote, which is ideal for the 3 and 4 players setup of this theme and helps with the average game duration that bothers some people.
That'd be very helpful, thanks! And don't worry, I read it and I fully agree with it as it keeps the balance there, I was just waiting for obey to check the thread. I actually read the arguments over again and the only thing still sticking out to me is complexity v incomplexity as the communication issue (never was one in my gameplay or any that was reported to me) is null. Yes it seems complex on the outside, but playing is rather simple and maybe something that would help is making the theme appear more user-friendly, though I'm not sure how this is possible as in my opinion it's already simple to grasp.
First of all guys, please calm down to both sides, we try to have a civil discussion instead then a flaming thread. Personally I am laughing behind my PC, because it's funny that instead to be 2 sides one on favour of RPS and another against it there are actually 3: Joey and Rice that sides for RPS as it is, Roild that wants it less of a battle royale where everyone drops dead as flies then and more classic as mafia theme, and Matt Ayala aka Scatterbrain that is too against RPS but because he wants it to be more a brawl battle royal with everyone against everyone where good hit kill the target and bad hit kill the targeter (if this is why you are against colors and Health Points). For how it is now I have some questions for @Roild and @Scatterbrain : 1) Spoiler: Find an Agreement between each other QC Both of you have asking this theme 2 completely opposite things which makes me unable to know what to do. So can you two discuss and come UP with an agreement so that I can go on with this theme? 2) Spoiler: What's wrong with Colors? Your comment makes it look like if you actually never played the game and only read the confusing code and looked the game as an extern. if I am wrong correct me please. Anyway I understand your point against HP but I still find it difficult to understand what is wrong about Colors, I mean they are only the names to relate the hands together, who is Blue is sided only with who is Blue and who is Pink is sided with who is Pink, if I was Roild he would say that this Hands are racist:grin:. So can you explain me more precisely what is your idea about Colors? 3) Spoiler: Make a List about what you think is wrong guys Can you guys make me an unique list of your complain? Because as it is now it's a little confusing and a little more order like point them with 1), 2), 3) etc. would really help me 4) One of your point Roild is that for you RPS is not a mafia game. Spoiler: Definition of Not-Mafia and Mafia Then I would like you to give me the definition of Mafia and not-Mafia game. I know that you said that is already explained in the Guidelines, but as I said you before when you were writing it, you should write a general description of the difference between mafia and not Mafia game. As it is now your point is that it's not mafia because for you it has the same qualities of a Free for All theme, but this is not a definition. Your point right now is like if you said that Square is not a Parallelogram, a Rectangle or a Rhombus, because it has all the angles and sides equal and has the qualities of all of them. 5) Both @Roild , @Scatterbrain and @RudeStyle in HD talked about the existence of games long 9-12 turns. Spoiler: Can I have some log of them? Personally I never ecountered such long games after that I have changed the setup into Village vs Mafia. I have checked RiceKirby's logs and the longest game that I found is only one 7 turns game . So can you guys send me a log with such long games if they will show up again so that I can understand about on how much players happens and have a better Idea what to do to solve it? 6) Scatterbrain Your Propose to have the theme without Colors and HP would bring the theme to be Really a free for all theme and will be really short because the players will have no teams and will resist less then now when attacked by other players. So what are your propose to solve this problems if I change it with this setup? And now guys if you excuse me it's time that the defense gives their: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1)If I am correct Matt Ayala said: But looking at the logs, more or less nearly all the games are around 5 turns. You said that you have saw games long 9 and 12 turns, but this cannot be the norm because if theoretically we think about a 12 players game and let's just think at the worst scenario where there are no gray Hands . If there are 2 Violet Hands (Actually on 9-12 players the violets are three) they will deal typically an average damage of 2 if they combine their attacks on the same target, let's add that village vote every night as it should like if it was vanilla, and let's remember that every green hand has 4 HP, now what happens? It happens that every day 1,5 Green Hands(villagers) will die, which mean that if there are 2 Violet(Mafia), then there are 10 villagers still. Now let's calculate: if there are 10 villagers how much will take the mafia to kill all of them? Answer: 6.6 turns . Now this is calculating the worst scenario with no Gray Hands from the begin and with only 2 Violet Hands. If I would have been realistic I would have added in the Algorithm even the 2 gray Hands that don't share their killing ability, the third Violet Hand for the mafia team as it should and the village X-fire. This mean that actually normally the game would be even shorter then 6.6 turns, which is pretty far away from this legendary 12 turns games. So for my theory the reason why there have been this rare long games is simply because the villager didn't voted, which means that this theme only suffered the same situation that Vanilla suffer sometimes when the village doesn't vote as it should. The only size that maybe could have this problem I guess is the 13 players game which still have the old ClanWar Setup, personally I didn't wanted to remove it because it was the most fun version of RPS when I played it thanks to the perfect number of players that permits connections and lies, but if necessary I will make 13 players Village vs Mafia setup too. 2) Your main argument Roild looks to be that the theme is a not-mafia game and a free for all. So let's analyze the theme a little. From what I understand a game to be considered Mafia should have this qualities: -A night phase for killers and prs actions, a day phase for discussion and a vote phase to vote out the suspicious players. Check: V -A team with more roles that are not connected, are more weak as single but with collaboration can win against the other thanks to the vote phase aka the Village. Check: V -A team with less roles but more power condensed in few roles and connect between teammates for a more effective collaboration. The problem is that they are less numerous then the other team. They are often known as mafia. Check: V -All the teams should be able to trick and/or collaborate and discuss with the other players in a general chat. This maybe in the past has been used less then in other themes because they talked more on PM then in general chat, but after that I added the village vs. mafia setup it got better . So Check: V -- Now this are all qualities that exist on this theme, sometimes people will not vote because they think to be more safe simply using their night actions, but before that I added Emerald hand it showed that this strategy would provoke often the victory of the mafia teams, what I am saying is that all of this points Checks are implemented in the theme, the only problem is that sometimes the players thinks wrongly to win without collaboration. About your Free For All statement that if a game has this quality it cannot be mafia as I said before I think is wrong. First of all this is not a total Free For All theme because people do not directly kill other people they only weaken them, otherwise any theme that have no vanilla villagers without abilities could be considered Free For All. Second the Free For All themes that showed on server until now were always with a DeathMatch or ClanWar setup, which obviously are not mafia because they lack some of the qualities that I described up there. This mean that even if you don't think like me that RPS is not a Free For All game, you have to agree with me that the game is still mafia because has all the qualities of it even if it has what you think are Free For All qualities too. Anyway on my opinion this theme on 5-12 players is more similar to vanilla and Dethy then a Free For All. 3) Another thing that you Roild criticized and until now I heard it only by you, Is that the pseudo-inspect doesn't work. Now I could say that I have a positive win-rate on RPS thanks to the pseudo-inspect, but this would be subjective and I have no proof with me right now. So here another Theorycraft game: You said that doesn't work because it doesn't always give a sure result: True, otherwise the ability would be overpowered and it would be like a theme full of sane inspectors, this is more like Dethy with math, maybe you will not get enough clues but I want to remember you that this is an action that all the villagers have, so if you don't get a good info, there are other villagers that can have more luck. On server you said that is useless night 1: Wrong, the first night result is the most useful one because all the same roles have the same amount of HP, making more easy to understand who got hit by what. You said that it was stupid because Villagers would die before to be inspected: that was true when the village had only 3 HP which meant that a good hit + a neutral hit is equal to a kill:eek:, but right now is different because now the villagers have 4 HP instead, making them able to resist enough to be inspected. 4) You Guys says sometimes that the game is confusing, but it looks like that you understood prety easily how it works when I explained to you. 5) Here what i think are some good points that you guys said, - The 13 players games is weird, this could be true, I wanted to have it still ClanWarish because it looked the most balanced one and great enough to have a good trickery mafia game. - The 3-4 players are not mafia-like and are weird because they cannot vote. True, they are what is more near to ClanWar and free for to all the other setup, but at the same time they work like a real Rock Paper Scissors game and they are one of the few 3 players games that endure more then 1 turn, so I would like that you guys would be kind with 3-4 players games because it works good enough and their weirdness is mainly given by the fact that still have a vote phase even if they cannot vote, which Rice Kirby is working to solve the problem, which I say thanks Rice. - The players are inclined to play silent sometimes because they think to be more safe and indipendent thanks to their night actions. True, but the main problem is not the theme but how the players use it. In the past the absence of Emerald Hand Punished the villagers that behaved this way because they were in disadvantage against the Violet Hands' coordination without the vote phase. Now it would be stupid to remove Emerald because gives to the village a Leader and the hands are more driven to vote, but I am thinking to give another type of punishment for the village if they don't vote. I am thinking to introduce a role called "CLEAVER", which is immune to all the night attacks and have 1 HP (this way can be inspected by Emerald Hand), their ability is that to cut all the fingers to the hands that they target, which makes the FingerLess hand unable to use their /rock, /paper and /scissors actions and reduce their HP to 1. The "CLEAVER" win when all the hands are Fingerless, it doesn't need to kill them all. And their complete night-immunity will force mafia and village to use the vote phase. And yes @IceKirby the Fingerless idea come up from your suggestion to substitute HP with Fingers ^^ Ok guys this is all, if I forgot something let me know. And I hope You answer me back to my questions and my defense, especially to know what you guys think about "CLEAVER" :wink:
If I recall ( I would post log but i seem to have misplaced it :/ i usually save most logs of a theme in testing ) it's in larger games of around 8 players ? Mostly because of Gray being taken out so early ( mostly because of this, if gray stays in it can shorten game length because of the direct kill . )
The Cleaver idea is interesting for sure, but I feel like this should be saved until the bigger games (11-13) for balance issues.
This exactly. Any "attacks" directed towards a player instead of the theme or idea of the theme will be dealt with accordingly. Server actions via a moderated source are also liable (for example, in #Mafia) for the same treatment. All criticism should now include either 1) a way to fix it or 2) a statement saying you have no idea how to change it for the better... in which case your argument on that side is considered weakened and you can't keep hammering that point until you fulfill #1. Otherwise, you're just going to be arguing in circles for another 4 pages and still end up no where. If the QC cannot properly review this theme for any circumstances, then I will reassign who is reviewing it.
It seems that changing Gray's priority brought a bug: Spoiler (22:44:36) ±Game: You have chosen to paper RiceKirby! (22:45:07) *************************************************************************************** (22:45:07) Times Up! : (22:45:07) ±Foot: RiceKirby (Green Hand) was eliminated! (22:45:07) ±Game: Paper wraps Rock! You received 2 points of damage. You still have Green Hand [2] Health Points! (22:45:07) ±Game: Scissors cuts Paper! You received 2 points of damage. You still have Green Hand Health Points! (22:45:07) ±Game: You lost all your HP and died! As you can see, the player (BlackStar44) used /paper on me, but I died to Gray Hand before he could attack me. Because of that, he didn't change into Green Paper and took 2 HP damage from both Rock and Paper on the same night. Fuzzy edit: Readlog if needed Spoiler (22:10:09) *** ::: ::: Log for RPS-themed mafia game ::: ::: *** (22:10:09) Players: Zwethie (Green Hand [4]), RiceKirby (Green Hand [4]), Rachethead (Gray Hand [3]), BlackStar44 (Green Hand [4]), Revengeance (Violet Hand [7]) (22:10:09) *** NIGHT PHASE 1 *** (22:10:09) BlackStar44 used: /paper RiceKirby (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /scissors BlackStar44 (22:10:09) RiceKirby used: /scissors Rachethead (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /paper BlackStar44 (22:10:09) Rachethead used: /gun RiceKirby (22:10:09) *** STANDBY PHASE 1 *** (22:10:09) *** VOTING PHASE 1 *** (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /vote Rachethead (22:10:09) Rachethead used: /vote Zwethie (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /vote Rachethead (22:10:09) *** NIGHT PHASE 2 *** (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /scissors Rachethead (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /rock Rachethead (22:10:09) *** STANDBY PHASE 2 *** (22:10:09) *** VOTING PHASE 2 *** (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /vote Revengeance (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /vote Zwethie (22:10:09) *** NIGHT PHASE 3 *** (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /paper Revengeance (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /scissors Zwethie (22:10:09) *** STANDBY PHASE 3 *** (22:10:09) *** VOTING PHASE 3 *** (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /vote Zwethie (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /vote Revengeance (22:10:09) *** NIGHT PHASE 4 *** (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /paper Revengeance (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /rock Zwethie, /paper Zwethie (22:10:09) *** STANDBY PHASE 4 *** (22:10:09) *** VOTING PHASE 4 *** (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /vote Revengeance (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /vote Zwethie (22:10:09) *** NIGHT PHASE 5 *** (22:10:09) Revengeance used: /rock Zwethie (22:10:09) Zwethie used: /rock Revengeance (22:10:09) *** GAME END *** (22:10:09) Winners: Violet Hands (Revengeance)
What's priority now if I read the code correctly, -2? Might help if it was made a positive number, though not sure how much that'd help.
Being negative it's not a problem. The problem is that it now comes before the other hands are able to transform into the form they had chosen for that night. This new bug came when OTK was fixing the bug mentioned here: http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/nonpeak-rps-rock-paper-scissors.26937/page-3#post-382667
Damn this is a huge bug problem, and I am not sure if I can solve it without returning into the old format where the Helth Points are revealed with the curse messages. Anyway I have an idea but I need to ask you if you think that it can work IceKirby because I am unsure how Shield precisely work. I was thinking to give "shieldAction": "copy", to gray hand so that when people uses /rock, /paper or /scissors on the same target of gray hand, they will redirect only the copy part of the action to Gray Hand so that they can change anyway. The problem is that I am unsure if when the target dies, does the shield still work or when the player will try to copy the dead target and fail instead to have the copy redirected to the Gray Hand?
Shield is not based on action, but on command. If you had "copy" in shieldActions, then nothing would happen since no role has a /copy command. If for example you add "paper" on shieldActions, then any command named /paper will be fully redirected to the shield user. It would probably be a bit complex, but can't you split the rock/paper/scissors command into yet another form, so priorities would be something like Changes into hand chosen > Gun > Changes into HP form > Attack ?
Hmmm, no I think that doing so the HP shown on the damage message will be the one that the player has before to be damaged so I will simply exchange the bug with another one as before. Damn, ok no PANIC!!! My Lucky Brilliant Mind ( More lucky and not so much Brilliant actually :rolleyes:) has come up with a new Idea, I simply exchange the kill action of /gun with a distract and a convert hand to 0HP, it should work this way.
In spite of my previous posts, I have reconsidered my verdict: mainly because it's now a village v mafia v 3rd party instead of a clanwar. I will accept on two conditions: that Emerald hand inspect (or expose, as it is right now) how much HP a person has lost, as it would require more thinking (though everyone on Mafia can do basic math. I hope) and encourage more communication, and that everyone stop arguing. We are here to discuss the validity of a theme to be uploaded onto the server, not to fellate our egos and bash each other. I remember somewhere that someone said a majority of the server did in fact like RPS. I've heard good and bad things about RPS, mainly which I addressed in my earlier post, but the QC should not (and hopefully, is not) dependent on the general populous when giving their verdicts. We, Mafia QC or otherwise, are mature human beings who are here to discuss themes on a damn Pokemon server. Let's not get things too out of hand here.
Conditioning an accept to people arguing is not the way to review a theme :x There's nothing wrong with considering popularity too, if that's what you meant: @Shazan Distract+Poison could work. The main difference I can see with that is that it wouldn't be possible to know who died to a normal attack and who died to Gun anymore, so if you don't see any problem with losing that aspect, then I say it's worth a try.
The distract and poison would be interesting to see at the least, just to see how it changes gameplay. I say go for it, especially if it'll fix bugs.
Damn, are you sure is necessary it's pretty hard to code what you are asking because gray hands and violet hands change their starting HP depending by the game size. As it is now the only idea that I can come up to do what you are asking is to create a different version group of Gray and Violet for every starting HP that they have in the Spawn Lists. If you have an easier way to code it, I would really appreciate it. Well i never saw the knowledge about knowing who died by Gray Hands used in any way to find some culprit but if you think that there is a way to use it in an useful way Ice, I could add a dummy message that says something like "Bang!! A shot has been heard on ~Player~'s direction." to make people know who Gray Hand killed. The only thing that would make useful the knowledge about to know who gray killed, is the fact that it means that Gray still didn't used their self-protect Recharge and so they know that they could still protect themselves the next night.
So for me its Approve [2] I'm fond of this theme, I've liked it since i first played it. It's out there in terms of Mafia themes even with the village set up. Since it has something different to offer to the mafia channel I think it's only fair to enable it. The HP System is balanced, being able to use /rock /paper /scissors and damaging the opponent accordingly is fun.There has been debates early on, about not much communication but I've seen improvements in that lately and it's mainly because of Emerald being implemented, and players being more familiar with the theme and how to get good results from it. The Theme creators have been open to criticism, suggestions and have devoted a lot of time to this which is all good and is what we expect. So great job on the theme :)
Alright, but it's still really frustrating when the Mafia starts out with an odd number of HP, and the village starts out even. I'm pretty sure there's no way to circumvent it through the expose inspect but I suggest modifying the HP they have from 5HP to 6HP. I never really understood why the 5HP was really necessary. Could be just my OCD. But with that being said I'll make my Approve [1] (the number's right, before you say anything) official.
Guys, all of you skipped RudeStyle's approve, so actually it's 3 approves. EDIT: Upon further reading... So via Scatterbrain's approve, that's the third, albeit misnumbering. We did it @Shazan ♡
Look I am not saying that I will not do it, I only wanted to understand if you knew that what you are requesting is not an easy feat which will require some day to apply and to know if you maybe had in mind a simple way to do it, so unless you know an easier way to do it i fear you will have to wait a little. About what you said of HP sorry but I fail to see what is wrong with an odd number of HP, I mean the Violet Hands need to have adifferent amount of HP depending by how much players there are, this is why they are not only even number of HP for gray and violet hands, and 6HP would be even more easier to inspect then 5 on small games because it requires more good hit and neutral hits to drop down that hand's HP to a level of HP equal to that of the green hands. Anyway going on the point can you explain me please why you require necessary that the hands should have only even numbers of HP?
You got attacked by a gray hand and then from a normal hand . Edit---------------------------- Ok I made so that gray hand converts all the hands into Paper 0HP, this way they should receive the message that they have 0 HP now when attacked first by Gray and then from another Hand.