First analysis, so any help with fixing this would be appreciated. General A new generation is amoung us and our friendly Ho-oh is looking as powerful as ever. With the loss of permanent rain and a nerf to Stealth Rocks in the form of Defog, Ho-oh certainly has plenty of room to create havoc on any team. Boasting a high base Attack stat of 130 and godly Special Defense set of 154 alongside it's powerful and scorching Sacred Fire, Ho-oh can play star roles on both offense and defense. In addition, the increase of Steel types in Ubers will give Ho-oh an even greater fearsome presence. Not all is great for the phoenix however. With the loss of permanent rain comes permanent sun, not to mention blinding weaknesses to Water, Rock, and Electric moves, all of which are fairly common in some way. It gains a few threats this generation, namely Arceus-Rock. However, with good play and careful team planning, this can all be avoided and Ho-oh can be the star it was meant to be. Power Phoenix Ho-oh @ Choice Band Trait: Regenerator EVs: 252Atk / 4SDef / 252Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) / Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk) -Sacred Fire -Brave Bird -Earthquake -Sleep Talk Clocking in with an impressively high 591 Attack stat, Ho-oh seeks to come in and destroy everything that dares come in its path. The EVs are designed to hit as hard as possible while also taking a few hits if needed. The EVs are designed to allow you to tie with offensive Groudon and Choice Specs Kyogre before they can OHKO (if Adamant or Modest, respectively), given they are running full speed.. If you desire, you can trade the Speed and HP EVs, just note that the speed drop is very noticable. Thanks to this EV layout, the only Pokes you should have an issue plowing through are Lugia and Giratina. If you want, however, you can trade in the Adamant Nature for a Jolly Nature to shock these threats and other Base 90s such as Reshiram (if it runs a Specs set). Going into the moves, Sacred Fire is Ho-oh's bread and butter. With a base power of 100, accuracy of 95%, and the ability to burn the opponent 50% of the time, Sacred Fire will do a massive number to anything unprepared. Due to often coupling in the sun, the calculations for Ho-oh will include both Sun damage and out of sun damage. To compliment Sacred Fire is the even more powerful Brave Bird, which sits at base 120 power. Although it takes recoil damage, this can be easily compensated due to its key ability Regenerator. Together, these moves will hit everything hard except for Rock types, but this is handled thanks to Earthquake. Finally, the last slot Sleep Talk allows you to properly handle Darkrai's Dark Void. Since you won't outspeed the move, you will be able to absorb the Void and strike back with any attack at Banded damage, which will definitely create a problem for the opponent if the right moves are made. Fat Birdy Ho-Oh @ Life Orb / Leftovers Trait: Regenerator EVs: 248 HP / 180 Atk / 80 SDef Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Roost - Sacred Fire - Brave Bird - Earthquake / Toxic / Substitute / Thunder Wave Though not the heavy-hitter the prior set is, this set aims to make use of Ho-oh's high Special Defense and HP Stats. With these EVs, it hits a staggering 415HP and 365 Special Defense in stats, being rivaled only by Lugia and Chansey (on the special side anyway) in terms of defense. The set strives to make use of Ho-oh's good defenses while still creating havoc. The moves are pretty simple. Roost is for quick recovery while removing your Flying type, which will help out in certain situations (mainly against Thunder and Stone Edge users). Sacred Fire is your STAB move that provides a very nice chance at a burn while Brave Bird hits even harder, helped out by the Adamant nature and investment in Attack. The last slot is up to your needs, and the item at that. Earthquake allows you to hit Pokemon you normally couldn't hit hard with either move, such as Zekrom. If you run with Earthquake, use a Life Orb. Toxic is a nice status spreader that hits the wide majority of the Uber metagame whilst Substitute allows you to block hazards and have a nice pseudo-protect whilst you heal up with Roost or slam away with Sacred Fire or Brave Bird. In the cases of Toxic and Substitute, use Leftovers. In addition, you could also shock Pokemon like Kyogre or Palkia, thinking they can come in nice and fine, and slow them (along with other speedy threats) with Thunder Wave. While Life Orb is the preferred item, Leftovers is easily applicable with a stallier team. Steel Phoenix Ho-Oh @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Roost - Sacred Fire - Brave Bird - Whirlwind This Ho-oh, whose defensive stats reach a nice 415 HP, 306 Defense, and 346 Special Defense, is meant to take your opponent and aggrevate them with how bulky this bird is. The moves, once again, are self-explanatory. Roost for instant recovery, Sacred Fire for STAB and a great burn rate, and Brave Bird for an even more powerful move. The last slot, Whirlwind, should indicate that this set is most beneficial for stall teams, forcing out the opponent and throwing them onto whatever hazards you've laid down. It's also decent for teams looking for a phaser, however, as Whirlwind would be able to remove the boosting Pokemon off the field (in this metagame, usually Xerneas or Arceus) and keep their power at check. The set seems relatively plain, but has great potential once you see how much it is truly able to tank. For example, it laughs at both Mega Mewtwo Y and +2 Xerneas using Psystrike and Psyshock respectively, being 3HKO’d by either move and the latter only having a tiny window of doing so. Other Options While Ho-oh is usually a strictly phyiscal Pokemon, it does have a good enough movepool and Special Attack base stat (110) for a CM set consisting of Calm Mind, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Roost with Leftovers or a Life Orb. However, this job can easily be done by more Pokemon with greater force without having such blinding weaknesses, such as Choice Specs Reshiram or Arceus-Fairy. On the Power Phoenix set you can opt to run a Life Orb over the Choice Band, but with Brave Bird's residual damage and possible Toxics and entry damage you may take, it may only kill your awesome bird much faster than need be. On the Fat Bird set you can opt to run Calm Mind over Roost and replace Sacred Fire with Flamethrower, but in most cases it is not worth it. Also, to trip up predictions by more experienced people, you can choose to run Recover on the Fat Bird set, though Roost is generally more useful. In addition, for a large surprise, you can opt to run a Choice Scarf scarf set consisting of the same movepool as the Power Phoenix set. You'd simply just take the EVs and shift them to be max speed and max attack, your choice between an Adamant or Jolly nature. Ho-oh also has two nifty tools in Flame Charge and Tailwind, which can speed up Ho-oh or your team respectively. These moves would best be utilized on the Fat Birdy set, but that would mean losing Earthquake. Checks and Counters Kyogre is going to be the biggest annoyance for Ho-oh, due to the fact that it summons rain right away and has access to the double STAB Water Spout. While Kyogre can't really switch into the Power Phoenix set, they are more than capable of revenge killing with Water Spout/Surf whereas Salamence could pose an issue with Outrage if given the window. Physical attackers may also pose a problem if not burned, such as Mega Mewtwo X and Groudon with Stone Edge. Neither will appreciate switching in on any move by the Banded set, but they will OHKO with Stone Edge if not treated. Speaking of rocks, Stealth Rocks will massively hinder Ho-oh and leave him wide open to all sorts of hits, leaving him vulnerable. Arceus-Rock will also pose a great issue due to being able to OHKO with Judgement and come in generally unharmed by most of Ho-oh's attacks save Earthquake. Due to it outspeeding, Darkrai can also pose a problem, but the Band set should fare fine with proper prediction with Sleep Talk. Palkia can also be slightly annoying with its STAB Surf/Hydro Pump and can 2HKO most of the time with either move. Don't forget about the offensive powerhouse Zekrom, who can OHKO with a Banded Bolt Strike. It must be wary of switching in on the Banded set however, as coming into Earthquake is a nightmare and Sacred Fire could null the Band with a burn. Lugia may also pose and issue due to Toxic Stall. Your biggest wall issue is going to come in with Physically Defensive Giratina, who fails to be 2HKO'd by a Banded Brave Bird.
Roost over Recover, as Roost helps it more for it gets rid of its flying type. For example, against a burnt groudon, Stone Edge now fails to 2hko Ho-oh. Sleep Talk over Recover/Flame Charge on the Band set. Recover isn't too useful while Flame Charge is too weak to be locked upon. Darkrai is the 6th most used mon currently, so it's a good mon to counter it completely. I also recommend adding an Offensive SubRoost set, with BBird/SFire/Roost/Sub LO or Lefties, as it still works greatly like Gen 5. Adamant with 160 Atk, 248 HP, and rest into speed should be enough. Hope I helped.
I was looking on Bulbapedia and for some reason it didn't show Sleep Talk or Roost, thus why I listed those options. Thank you though, I'll look over what you said again later and edit the OP appropriately. I posted this during Microeconomics so yeah.
Agreed, I recommend to slap Recover in OO or maybe an extra option on a set here Roost is utilised, because if you are against an experienced player and they predict the Roost and in a case where Ho-oh goes first for that turn, they could, say EQ with a Groudon for example and then *bam* your Ho-Oh is gone, but it's up to you. ;)
Mention Kyogre can't switch in.. Mention Salamence in checks/counters y/y/y/y/y/y/y Mention Rockceus in checks/counters cos that's what it does.
First thing that catches my eye is the butt load of calcs. A lot of them are pretty pointless, e.g. you don't need a calc to know Brave Bird completely destroys Blaziken and MMX, Reshi never runs 252 Hp etc. If you wanna demonstrate power, one for 0/0 Palk, to show what an average Uber would take, and one for Def Groudon, for the more bulkier things in the tier, would suffice: 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon in Sun: 229-271 (56.6 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 322-381 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Anyway, General You definitely should not put in statements that imply Ho-oh has gotten worse this gen. Many (including me) would argue it has gotten better. The weather nerf has both helped and harmed it. Permanent sun isn't a thing anymore, but you shouldn't forget the same applies to rain. Losing your Groudon, while they have a Kyogre, no longer means your Fire moves will be neutered for the rest of the match. The Defog upgrade also means you can clear rocks off the field most of the time. Conversely, the ease of hazard removal means it is harder to wear down switch ins. So definitely rephrase/remove things like: You should definitely mention his 4x Stealth Rock weakness, as well as the buff to Defog. You've only lightly touched on it by saying Yveltal is less SR weak. Why this isn't already mentioned is beyond me, as it is literally the first thing most people think of when Ho-oh is mentioned. Remove, irrelevant as neither Xern nor Yveltal diminishes Ho-oh in his role. Power Phoenix Quick things: 248 Hp for an odd number to take less from SR, ability is Regenerator Max speed lets you outpace Gira before he Rests, Groudon before he can Stone Edge and beat/tie with Specs Ogre, all of which are quite important. I'd rephrase it to something like: If you desire it, you can throw the HP EVs into Speed. This let's you outpace or tie with offensive Groudon and Choice Specs Kyogre before they can OHKO you, but the bulk you lose is very noticeable. Fat Birdy I really don't understand the point of the EVs at all. Compared to a physically defensive Ho-oh (which should be a set), you don't have much of an advantage: Spoiler 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 243-286 (58.4 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 2hkoed 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ho-Oh: 171-202 (41.1 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery not 2hkoed Spoiler 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Ho-Oh: 148-176 (35.5 - 42.3%) -- 89.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery not 2hkoed 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 184-218 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery not 2hkoed Spoiler 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Ho-Oh: 126-149 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery not 2hkoed 252 SpA Life Orb Dark Aura Yveltal Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 157-187 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery not 2hkoed I could go on, but there isn't much point. Running WoW on Ho-oh is bad due to the extremely high burn rate of Sacred, so it is a waste of a moveslot most of the time. Honestly the set is pretty janky and I would just remove it entirely and add a tank and a physically defensive set. Tank Ho-Oh @ Leftovers/ Life Orb Trait: Pressure EVs: 248 HP / 176 Atk / 84 SDef Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Roost - Sacred Fire - Brave Bird - Earthquake/ Toxic/ Substitute Earthquake is the best move for its ability of Zek, Rockeus and Heatran. SubRoost still works, but the ubiquity of Rockeus means it is considerably worse this gen. Toxic is also nice for annoying Rockeus. Physically Defensive Ho-Oh @ Leftovers Trait: Pressure EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk) - Roost - Sacred Fire - Brave Bird - Whirlwind The Def EVs lets you do cool stuff like check +2 Ekiller twice after thanks to Regen, survive the 2hko from Mewtwo, survive a Stone Edge from support Arceus and Groudon etc. Whirlwind is nice for resetting buffs from Ekiller and what not, while the rest of the moves are pretty standard. OO Sky Attack deserves no mention. CC Ekiller is not a check or counter. Add physically defensive Giratina, who isn't 2hkoed by even a banded Brave Bird. I'm tired as balls so some of this May not make sense
Notes taken, will apply when I have the time. EDIT: I'm really sorry these changes are taking a while, it's just I rarely have laptop access so it's harder to do something like this, but I'll try my best to get it done swiftly. EDIT2: Finally got some laptop access, but with me having so much to do I only got time to edit the Power Phoenix set. The Tank (which will become the new Fat Bird) and Physically Defensive (Steel Phoenix) sets will be added sometime within the next week. I'm doing everything I can with my resources, so sorry for my slowness.
Power Pheonix- Max Speed for sure, you could mention HP in comments but max speed helps outspeeding SE Groudon and stuff Also Offensive Groudon and Specs Ogre have invested speed so the statement about outpacing them is untrue. (Then again when you change it then it will be true e.e) Nitpick but I'd wrap those calcs in a spoiler thing, kinda a burden on the eye if you know what i mean CC-No mention of Zekrom??? A Pokemon who can take several BBs and can OHKO back with a Bolt Strike? A very good check, though it must watch out for Band EQs which /could/ OHKO it and Sacred Fire burns.
I'll be honest, I forgot Zekrom was even a thing xD. I'll go ahead and make those edits ASAP though, thanks.
I think Assault Vest Ho-oh deserves a mention, my EV spread is often weird, so I don't know which to recommend, but here's an idea of how fun it can be : 252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ho-Oh in Rain: 290-344 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO OKAY, I only posted that to show off how bulky it can get, even though I don't see why you'd run 252hp/252SPD on a tank like Ho-Oh Oh, and on the physically defensive set, maybe slash whirlwind with WoW?
Assault vest Ho-oh is not supposed to have 0 atk EVs as all it can do is attack. That'd be completely useless set. I'd much rather give it max hp max atk EVs. Also, flame charge(on a set with speed EVs only) and tailwind both deserve a mention in OO.
Ahem Exactly what I said, I was just showing a random calc for amusement. But yes, I think 170HP/252ATK/88SPD or something of the sort for a serious spread
Well i think another Hooh set deserves to be mentioned though many do not use it, but it is extremely good and useful Hooh@C.Scarf Sacred Fire Earthquake Sleeptalk Bravebird 252attack 252speed 4def(adamant) This set is extremely good and i will ask people to use it. Outspeeds DeoAttack and destroys with sacred. Faster than all forms of mew2 and destroys them as psy doesnt kill hooh from full and i hope u wont switch into an incoming rockslide from mew2 x. Outspeeds normal palkias and does a shit ton to them with brave bird. One of the best darkrai counter and the best part is: people switch in Arceus rock to tank hits but u predict that go for eq then they think u will switch out but turns out u r faster and destroy them with eq agn. Nightmare for mega mew2X, outsped and kill kangas but not from full but sacred burns can change a game. Extremely nice revenge killer and regenator is a gift from God so that u bb everything. Has some flaws 2 as locking into move is not very good and protect can be a pain. Giratina and them rocks hurt but i m sure ull run defog with a hooh team. But in reality no one expects a scarfed hooh and u land the surprise factor with it.
I see the grand potential in that set, it's pretty dasdardly. I planned on adding that within the Power Phoenix set, the only issue for me is that I'm confined to a phone that loves its auto-correct so editing is a nightmare. I'll try to add it ASAP.
I was planning on adding it as a slash-in with the Power Phoenix set since it's the exact same movepool. EDIT: Noticed the EVs are different, so what I'm going to try to do is after I throw in the Assault Vest set that was suggested into OO is I'm going to try to add the Scarfed set right below the Power Phoenix set since it has been on the rise. I plan on naming it something like ''Skyward Phoenix''.
I'm gonna have time today and tomorrow, albiet this time is limited. I just made the edits, if there's anything else needed just let me know.
Saying as I've attempted to contact QC a few time during the last month, is there a specific reason as to why my analysis hasn't been checked by QC yet or...?
I'm not sure if I'm officially QC yet, but here's some suggestions/nitpicks anyway: Banded Very awkward typo in EVs makes it look like you recommended SDef instead of Speed.. You don't outspeed offensive Groudon and Specs Kyogre, you'll be lucky if you tie them with Adamant Mention different speed tiers, something bulkier with ~92 Speed for creeping on uninvested base 100s works, as does Jolly 4 (S)Def > HP, be consistent between sets in reducing hazard damage Standard Thunder Wave is an option too Sub allows you to block...status LO is also good without Earthquake, slash before lefties imo Explain what you are specifically EV'd for (I'm still wondering, I know 248/80 lives Kyogre Surf and 248/52 lives Xerneas +2 Thunder but 248/84 never seen) Physical Def Mention how this is one of the best Mewtwo Y counters and also you troll Psyshock Xerneas hard, because people might wonder what physical attacks you will be tanking OO Don't mention all the CM/Flamethrower bs imo, it does nothing the normal set doesn't HP Ice maybe? Zorodark knows it's good on every Pokemon :))))) CC Make this more organized imo, divide them into groups that do the same, for example - SR - best counters: Arceus-Rock/Water, Ground types, Lugia - fast things that hit hard but can't switch in (on every move): Kyogre, Zekrom, Palkia - weaker defensive checks: Giratina (only beats Leftovers), Eleceus/Dialga in rain - mention how everything can have rock moves i.e. Stone Edge Arceus Fairy/Grass, Stone Edge Giratina-O, Head Smash Aegislash
hmm atm just wondering if this is a better spread for def ho oh since u can always live +2 thunder from xern and when is an extra xern check ever a bad thing EVs: 248 HP / 208 Def / 52 SDef +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 350-414 (84.1 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery u still check the other stuff alright as well 252 SpA Life Orb Mewtwo Psystrike vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 195-230 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 257-304 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (this kinda sucks) 0- Atk Arceus Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 244-288 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery keep in mind +2 thunder doesnt have a good shot at ohkoing, but still +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Ho-Oh: 362-428 (87 - 102.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Toxic should not be a slash on that LO tank set. You could just nuke everything you'd want to hit with that, and that's what you should be doing. Also you should probably cut out a few of the Reshiram mentions because it's kinda very bad in this meta and not seen much at all. Other than that it looks fairly ok but i'm going to need to look i-over it more carefully another time.
Regarding C&C 252+ Atk Teravolt Zekrom Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 566-668 (136 - 160.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO Zekrom doesn't need to be banded to ohko Ho-oh ( you mention only Band Zekrom which is false) If I find more , I'll just be editing this post. The "General" section was a good read o:< In General Section - It's among not amoung - Even this is incorrect -should be more along the lines of : A new generation is UPON us permanent sun should be replaced with the loss of permanent sun . It isn't redundant , it's necessary Arc-Rock was available since D/P and always countered Ho-Oh (apart from getting 2hkoed by eq). It isn't something Ho-Oh "gained" in X/Y.
Maybe add Sub with 3 moves on the Fat Birdy set ? With lefties and some bulk it can do really good to check Xerneas, and it's then prevented from status thanks to Sub. However you may lack of power as you have no Life Orb to increase power. Maybe mention Rhyperior and Heatran as CC ? Hope i helped :)
Downright incorrect, blocks status moves, not hazards. Also, I'd like to suggest you remedy the lack of the word "kacaw". Heatran is conditional and cant really do anything back, dying to Earthquake, or at most getting SR Up if Ho-Oh is locked into a STAB. When Ho-Oh switches, regenerator will shrug off any pathetic damage heatran does, and most people will carry a defogger or rapid spinner on a team with ho-oh, so SR being put up very likely wont do much.
Heatran isn't meant to damage Ho-oh directly- it checks it with toxic/phazing. And SR is still great even with defog, as it does limit the opponents switch options, wear their team down etc. while it's up and in any case pressuring defoggers or punishing them for spending a turn defogging is entirely possible (Steel types are weak to Heatran's fire attacks, supportceus and Gira-O are all really susceptible to toxic, etc.). So yeah I think Heatran is worth a mention in C&C for checking defensive variants and I guess coming in on choice Sacred Fire. Also I think this has been mentioned, but C&C does look very disorganised, things are listed in no apparent order. Also Salamence being there (does anyone besides Piexplode use this?) and Eleceus not being there is odd
I know, I'm just stuck on a phone so it's pretty hard for me to organize it without my phone going bonkers on me with formatting. Trying to find time but atm, it's really hard.