Arceus

Discussion in 'Theme Development' started by Fiery Espeon, Dec 31, 2013.

  1. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    This is just the basics and mechanics and I am open to any suggestions you may have before i actually start coding it completely.
    Roles:
    Arceus-A Villager that can convert to any of the 5 chosen types (Poison, Steel, Dragon, Fire and Ghost) or stay normal. If the Arceuses decide not to change, they will get no boost so it is advised that everyone change so they can have a better chance of winning. Some might say its too much like Rotom, butRotom is based on Magikarp, and Magikarp was based on Juggernaut but they all have different mechanics. Arceus-Steel is immune to poison and has a voteshield of -10. Arceus-Poison has a 1 poison per night but that poison kills in one day. It also has a one time additional poison. Arceus-Fire is a basic nightkiller with a vote of 2. Arceus-Dragon has a non-revealing daykill every day(Something like "Arceus-Dragon used ROAR OF TIME! It was a critical hit. -Target- went back into the Original One!). But, It has votes added to so if Arceus-Fire voted Arceus-Dragon, it would be 4 votes for the Dragon(2 votes added to the total). Arceus-Ghost evades daykills and has a vote of 4. You might think this is just like Rotom but there are more roles!
    Because there are no inspectors or distracters, there is Ditto. Ditto is conspirator. Can win with anyone but Professor Rowan.(I will get to that later). He inspects , distracts, and bodyguards (tri-command). Ditto can claim and easily win if there is no Rowan but some people will vote him out because of his distracting powers. It helps the Arceuses find and try to connect with each other.
    Professor Rowan, the common enemy of all Arceuses, has a nonrevealing daykill and a nonrevealing expose. His partner is Gary Oak who can BG himself or Professor Rowan. Gary Oak is Kuja.
    You might think that the Professors are very OP but, Ditto can easily inspect and find them, and Gary has to choose between him or the Professor nightkillers can hit them. They can also be poisoned or daykilled so I would say it is pretty balanced.
    In terms of flavor and why the Professors are here in the first place is that since Professor Rowan is in charge of Sinnoh and evolution, he wants to "find" out what type Arceus and how he can change. Overall, its basically a group of villagers that convert into 6 different teams with a conspirator to help them find teammates and a common enemy.(Its like merging Rotom, ClanWar, Juggernaut, Magikarp and Pokemon together to form a whole other theme with different mechanics.
    I am open to critique and changes to make this theme better.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  2. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Rotom came before Magikarp, and Juggernaut came after both. Also, how are those 3 themes even related at all? They have nothing in common, while your theme is basically Rotom+. I don't see how your theme has anything of Juggernaut and Magikarp either, as you said.

    Also, you expect a conspirator role to balance a Kuja role? My advice is that you never should use conspirators to balance a theme, as those are roles that have no responsability to help anyone. Also, all those killers and poisoners would probably have a better chance at dealing with Rowan/Gary than Ditto, so Ditto's purpose is not only null as it's far from being efficient.

    And all of those broken votes (1.5, 3.5, 4.5) will only make the theme confusing. Ideally, you should avoid giving extra votes to anyone that doesn't really need (I'd say only 1 role), and if you give them, keep it rounded so the voting phase don't become a mess.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  3. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    It honors me for someone to say that Rotom was inspired by Juggernaut :3
     
  4. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Okay im following your advice RiceKirby but im still keeping Ditto as conspirator. It seems very clear that something like Ditto would try to impersonate Arceus. I am editing the votes but im keeping voteshields. Also, for some crazy reason, the people without Extra votes, negative voteshields, normal Arceuses, and Ditto can just say there going to selfvote to find the other ones. (Fire and Dragon can be easily found. Ghost can be found and killed by Fire or poisoned. If they decide to selfvote, it helps the normals, poison and steels have a chance. Also, Arceus-Steel can be a role that Normals can choose where there is two poisoners or Arceus-Ghosts that will allow them to win with their voteshield and immune to poison. And how its similar to Magikarp? Fisherman and Magikarp have a common enemy of Gyarados. All the Arceuses and Ditto have a common enemy of Professor Rowan. And similar to Juggernaut? Again, Professor Rowan would be a "Juggernaut" as he can kill up to 2 people per cycle and have a low chance of being killed.(One daykill and Gary's Vote). You can see the edited votes and voteshields.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2013
  5. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    This doesn't make any sense. By that logic, this is also similar to Caterpie, since Caterpies and Charmelon have Weedle Family as a common enemy. This would also be similar to Default, since Village and Mafia have Godfather as an enemy. This would also be similar to Zelda. And to FF. And to Myth. And to all themes.

    When comparing to other themes, you need to look at the core of each theme, not just "who fights who". Magikarp was about communication and sacrifice (Tell the others who you will distract to possibly clean someone). Juggernaut was all about stopping a single person before they get too strong by becoming the person that must be stopped. None of those are present in this theme or in Rotom, which makes your argument of Rotom being based on Magikarp completely out of place as a way to justify this theme being a Rotom+.
     
  6. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Then again, Rotom had no bombs and it was all about disposing the other formes. Arceus is different. Ghost, Steel, Normal can't kill but they have a certain advantages. Rotom is much killfest. Anyway, in Arceus, instead of becoming a role that gets to kill, you can be various aspects that you would like to be. Some people like being bombs, some hate poison, some like to slowly kill people and some people just enjoy being able to kill randomly. You might say its just Rotom+ but its only like Rotom because of the converting. The main differences are that there are other roles, they all have a common enemy and there is a converting role that you can choose where you can win and not get killed or voted out. Me, personally, would always convert to Arceus-Ghost or Arceus-Steel as I hate being lynched, daykilled and poisoned. Or, unlike the changed Rotom, there is a possibility that I can be neutral but when it seems like I have to convert to a winning side, I can convert to a side that can easily overwhelm them. Ditto is more for people who like to inspect and connect people as there is usually 1 person that gets do that in a theme. Gary Oak is a kuja and a bodyguard which is a very unusual combination. It can overwhelm all the Arceuses with its votepower and protect but Arceus-Dragon was meant to counter him. Gary Oak has to decide whether he wants to help support his team by bodyguarding and saving his votes for later, or voting all the Arceues for a faster win and hoping that no Dragons pop up but, he also selfishly is not bodyguarding Professor Rowan who is very vulnerable during the night.
     
  7. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    You are missing the point. Although this theme has different roles, it uses the same core as Rotom: letting people choose their side. Sure, there will be some different situations due to the different roles, but the way it's played is basically the same. And it's not a Kuja role or Ditto that is going to change everything.

    Think about it, if you are Kuja in a theme full of killers and poisoners, would you reveal itself early? I doubt it, since you would become an easy target even with protection abilities. There's no way Gary can try to "vote all Arceus for a fast win", since Gary is weaker that other Kuja roles since there's not a village. You know how mafia often leave Kuja alive so it can rampage the village, and then they kill Kuja later? This simply wouldn't happen here, as no one would have a reason to let someone else dominate the game when they could do this themselves.
    And if you are Ditto, would you really try to connect the different sides? I doubt it, most people would simply say "Conspirator here, don't kill me, I win with everyone" and just do nothing that can get itself killed. That's how it works for most themes with a Conspirator, there's no reason it would be different with this one. If anything, some players would see Ditto as a threat because it can either reveal them or feed information to another side.

    The thing is, having those roles is not a bad thing. But having those roles in a theme that's not much more than Rotom is not enough to justify having a different theme since the cores are identical. Sure, there are other themes that have similar cores between each other, but Rotom is a gimmick theme. There's no reason to have 2 of the same gimmick theme.
     
  8. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Fine. We can have the same thing but instead of getting to choose, its in spawn. No gimmick. But, the types and roles are still the same. Also now it will be roles-revealed at startup. A few twists here or there can make more balance and Ditto can't claim because doesn't win with Professor. There will be more Arceus-Normals in a spawn then Arceus-Dragon forthe sake of balance. I might decide to give Arceus-Normal a distract. Also, Arceus-Normal and Arceus-Dragon are the only roles that dont have roles revealed at startup. New Mechanics: A theme where there are many sides and each team has superiority over one part of Mafia gameplay but aren't sided together. I will balance out so there is a chance that any of the 6 types and Rowan can win.
     
  9. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    The problem with 6 different types will likely be the spawn, if it isn’t a multiple of 6 (idk how Rowan would disrupt it, but it’d probably be 6 + 13 + 20 +26 etc (accounting for Gary) as the only truly equal spawn lists).
     
  10. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    But, we can kick out Arceus-Fire and it can be 5+12+ 18 + 23+ 28
     
  11. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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  12. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Not really because its funny how Arceus's creations are rebelling against them. I might just remove all sides and do sides like this:
    1) Arceus (Can transform into 3 type , but each has a fail chance of 50%)
    2) Ditto(conspirator)
    3) Professor Rowan
    4) Ash's Posse
    5) Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Mesprit, Azelf , Uxie
    and Zidane FFIX's team doesn't really have any connections.