Rotom

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by IceKirby, Nov 19, 2013.

  1. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    That conspirator mentality is yet another thing that forced me to make that change. As it was before, people were not converting, not helping any side and just begging for their lives or complaining when they got killed/converted/voted in the hopes they could simply wait to join the winning side. Basically, they were joining the game but not playing, just wanted to win without putting any effort. If that was the case, it would be better to have the RNG theme than Rotom.
     
  2. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    Going to actually step back and say that the abundance of regular Rotoms made a pseudo town in the fact that the biggest numbers of a side, basically 2 shot inspectors, didn't really pose a threat and their goal would actually be to eliminate as many Rotom firmest as possible in order to either win or join the last remaining side at the end, which I don't feel is all that bad.

    I also want to bring up something that someone said to me (the individual's name escapes me ATM) but I feel it's fairly significant, and that often times the crowd favorite Rotom former, so to speak, would probably acquire more wins than most others because of their sheer numbers and thus balancing on a choose-your -role theme is very difficult. In the case of the Wash sheer numbers and only a 50% chance to evade distracts for Mows end up in Mows getting beaten by Washes if there are a fair amount of them - fortunately this does not happen often in practice, but I hope you see my point.

    So yeah as a player who favored the normal Rotom form I did put quite a bit of effort into playing as a semiconspirator
     
  3. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I don't mind a few players trying to play as pseudo-conspirator, but the theme begins to lose any meaning if 17 of 18 players try that (and that was happening quite often). As for pseudo-village, this is something that restricts the theme as it can easily disencourage players from converting, which as I said before, can really hurt the theme.

    As for the balance, I'm aware that it's basically impossible to expect a similar win rate for all sides in this type of theme. What I plan to do soon is to have all forms attractive enough so players will want to try them occasionally. My ultimate goal is to have players trying something different every game, which, in my opinion, makes the theme more enjoyable.
     
  4. The Hades

    The Hades My Wall

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    I agree with Rice and Matt. Half the time you would get killed or converted before shock happened, and if you do survive auto win for normals, I think normals shouldn't be allowed to win and the change was for the better as it promote being afk for 6 nights
     
  5. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    I find better to eliminate the convert chance after n3 and give something else rather than poisoning regular Rotoms to force them to convert. They could perfectly be a side of their own.
     
  6. Dreams

    Dreams Active Member

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    I would like to see the heat rotom role removed
    Played rotom a few times just now (non peak time and people are lazy to apply their mind) , and I went heat since they have the lowest wins , and well Mow has the ridiculous -60 voteshield which needs four washes to tie , and mow voted a fellow heat d1 and promptly killed me n2 , there is no role as unbalanced and over powered as mow , wash no longer kuja's it as -60 means four washes piling up their votes (50% chance is rubbish) and since we don't know who is on who , that rarely happens .
    Everyone goes mow as it is overpowered and other roles dont stand a chance , there were 2 heat , 2 mow , a wash and a frost in the most recent game , mow voted out one heat , killed the other , other mow killed the wash and frost was boned . This is absolutely no different from staying normal to shock everyone . Mow is almost always a guaranteed win
     
  7. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I'd love to have normal Rotoms as a playable side, but to have that, I first need a solution to the anti-play tactics that players have been abusing. If you have a suggestion, I will be glad to listen.

    You are asking for a role to be removed for being too weak instead of asking for the OP role being removed or seeing all roles balanced? lol
    Well, I don't disagree with you, and I have plans to rebalance the roles yet again, but no form is going to be removed. Not having one of the forms would make the theme feel really awkward.
     
  8. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    I know that i am pretty late to join the argument, but i just wanted to say what i think about the normal rotom not-converting problem and the fact that people like to convert all on the same side.
    My opinion is: that maybe the problem is the fact that rotoms can choose a side without a limit caps and whenever they wanted before of the adding of the poison for the normal rotoms.
    So i was thinking that maybe if there is a limit on how much heat, mow, washer, frost, fan can be possessed, so that players will think twice before to wait that the winning side will be obvious to choose the side to join, because the number of players that can became /mow or any other type of rotom would be limited, so more time they wait and less chances they will have to join a side.
    As you Ricekirby said after all, players typically try to win without putting any efforts waiting that one of the sides will be near the victory before to join it.
    But with a limit of how much rotoms can join that side, the players will have to take more risks instead to wait, because it will no more guaranteed that they will be able to join that side.

    About how to code something like that, i know that a direct way to do it is impossible unless it will be invented a reverse "ondeadroles" command that convert players when there are certain roles instead of when those roles are dead. But i think that it can be done something similar even with shared commands with a prefixed number of "charges" or with the "massconvert" mechanic.
    For exemple :
    1)all the normal rotoms could have their converts shared and with a limited number of charges, so that when the charges of one of the roles is completely depleted, then such role cannot be choosen anymore.
    2) Otherwise it could be added a massconvert inside each normal rotom converts commands and any normal rotom will have a 70% chance to evade such massconverts. Practically this mass converts when the player that use them has choosen a side, this will have a 30% chance to convert the other normal rotoms in a version of normal rotom that when they try to convert in that same version of rotom they will instead receive a dummy message that says "sorry PLAYER but there are no more washing machine to posses here so you cannot became a Wash Rotom anymore" (now i am doing an exemple with wash rotom convert but the same concept could be applied with all the other types).
    3) Another method with massconvert could be that with any normal rotom that has a precise number of charges for any convert, and every time that one rotom converts himself into a new sided rotom: all the other normal rotoms will be mass converted into a version of normal rotoms with a charge lost inside the convert that has been used by that rotom. Personally i do NoT suggest this method because even if it is the less random of the three, it could require to code a number of normal rotoms version pretty high because of all the possible combinations, for exemple if a game can have only 5 wash, 5 heat, 5 frost, 5 mow and 5 fan, the number of normal rotoms to code will be near 255 if i am not wrong.
    Sorry for the long post.
     
  9. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    @ above (too much to quote :<)
    Wouldn't that run into problems with Frost, which focuses on increasing its numbers?
     
  10. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Restricting the number of players each side can have is far too much trouble, and sincerely, I'm not sure it would make the theme better.

    I'm not completely discarding having the normal Rotom being available again in the future, but before I even think about reverting that, I plan on rebalancing the converted forms. The priority is to have all the converted forms attractive enough so players will have a motivation to use other forms.
    /shock, on the other side, has a really low chance of coming back, and if it eventually comes, it will be largely nerfed (something like 3 kills instead of 10 and only at N8~9). I don't plan on rewarding stall tactics anymore (it was originally meant to reward survival, but that's not what was happening).

    Someone once suggested that Heat, and not Wash, should have /distract. That has been wandering in my mind for a while, and today I thought about having a side with a /protect command (would safeguard+protect, can't use on self, and there would be some limitation like every 3 nights or only 2 charges). That could work so I could make one side more defensive-oriented, but I'm in doubt if I should have Heat with Distract and Wash with Protect or the other way.
     
  11. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    Personally i don't think that frost will be a problem because this way even them loses a bunch of volontary conversions but i understand when IceKirby says that is too much trouble to apply it to make it more problematic then useful.
    Mmm... I have another idea a little more simple.
    What if you make all the rotoms appear as the basic rotoms into the "playing roles" list? a bit like miller into default practically when in that list they appear as mafia bun in to the team list they appear as miller.
    This way all the rotoms knows only how much people are sided with them but don't know how much people the other teams have
    So that basic rotoms cannot choose so easily what team is winning because they don't know how much manpowers this teams have.
     
  12. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I think I tested that once during the first time Rotom was uploaded. I don't remember the results (I tested it for 2 games, at most), but I could give it a try.
     
  13. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    The only issue with that is that people can still say "Going Wash, join me" (just an example) and ruin that preventive measure that way. Sure people can lie, but odds are they'll be telling the truth and that kinda ruins the everyone looks like Rotom thing.
     
  14. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    Yeah it's true that rotom are more likely to say their true role. But is even true that they could fake on how much players are already part of that team, to make more appealing the idea to join that side, when they actually are only 1 or 2 players at the moment.
    Or they could even fake to be a role that no one claimed still and that their role is strong against it, so to make convert some fools into a team which against it they have the upper hand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  15. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I would agree with you, but the 30 second period leaves hardly any room to try to appeal people to come to their side. Unless, of course, I missed something and the converts are pushed back from "n1 or die" now. I mean, it's likely that people will, but it's not enough time for what you said to come true.
     
  16. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    You didn't miss anything, Rotoms still have to convert N1. The point is that one of my objectives is to revert that after some balance and other adjustments are finished, which, in case, would make that quite an interesting point.
     
  17. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    What I think you could do (without altering the entire game) is remove the evasion of poisons from the Wash Rotoms and reduce the distract avoidance on Mow to 25%. You can also try giving Fans immunity to poison (I forgot what they avoid and I can't open dropboxes, just going off of memory), just random stuff for this theme that could possibly make it better alongside your ideas.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2014
  18. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

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    Hey, man, I love rotom, but it needs balancing. Wash is fine. he's pretty damn good. I honestly dont think he should have the evade poison, cause he's already insane, but the har har fire beats water flavor should make it stay. Mow is #1 now, with that voteshield. No changed needed there, he's winning in wins. Frost doesn't need work either, he can win if his converts spin out of control.

    Here's what DO need work though. Fan Rotom. He's more like the underdog. daykill is the ultimate kill, but he's so slow. I see what you did with the 50% fan evades mowtom, but i dont think thats enough. I would like to suggest a one time self BG for fan rotom either in replace of the 50% evade or in addition to the 50% evade. This would keep fan safe from mows long enough to daykill them.

    Ok, now for my favorite part. Heat Rotom. He sucks. he gets lynched by wash, wash evades his only method to do something, dies to mowtom, dies to fantom, he beats frost rotom but poison is a really slow kill. And he can poison his own teammates when his only method for killing is slow. Basically in a 1v1 fight between any rotom, heat loses. Idk how you can make him better but PLZ DO! he just sucks at killing when all the rest of the rotoms are great at it. (except wash) My only suggestion to make him slightly better is to make it so he cant target fellow heats. this givges heat immunity to poison, ANd helps connect (but still, no one converts into heat anyway.) (except me)

    Rotom is the only theme I /start. And basically I only play mafia cause i can start rotom. Im just trying to help balance it. Plz take into consideration my thoughts. Ty.
     
  19. NotMafia

    NotMafia Miltank: Destroyer of Souls

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    Fan needs d1 kill quickly
     
  20. The Hades

    The Hades My Wall

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    I say give mow only -15 voteshield
     
  21. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I made yet another big balance update. Here are the changes:

    -Heat now distracts (every 2 nights) and no longer protects. The Poison Resistance was removed.
    -Wash no longer distracts, but can protect+safeguard (even itself) once per game. Vote is now 20 to reduce the cases where non-Wash/Non-Mows could outvote them.
    -Due to the above changes, Mow no longer evades Distracts. The voteshield was also changed to -19 (enough to tie 1-on-1 against a Wash, but not to win it by itself). Mow's kill is also faster than Heat's poison again.

    Frost received a big boost recently, so I decided to not change it. I still need ideas for Fan, but Daykill D1 is not going to happen. This would turn Rotom even more of a mindless killfest, possibly even turning it into Daypix.
     
  22. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    The turn after it converts, give Fan a 50% change of a -100 voteshield and immunity to either kills or poisons. Since the voteshield would only be for one turn, that shouldn't be that overpowered.
     
  23. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    (21:22:18) ±Game: You have chosen to protect Honest Wr4et!
    (21:22:21) ±Game: You are a Wash Rotom!
    (21:22:21) ±Game: You possessed a Washing Machine! Your vote counts as +20, and you can use /protect [yourname] once during the game to protect yourself from any night action. You also have a 50% chance of evading poison.

    Should either say that you can protect anyone or make it OnlySelf
     
  24. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I changed the help description to tell them they can protect anyone. The idea is that Wash should be able to protect someone else to frame them, if they wish so.

    Also, the first buff to Fan Rotom will probably be the immunity to distract (AKA Heat's distract will be just a regular distract). With this, they should be able to recover the advantage that standby actions naturally have.

    Lastly, I need opinions (not suggestions) about how is the balance between forms. Heat and Frost seems to be better balanced, but Wash now seems too weak. Please tell me if you agree, disagree or think something about some other form, and why do you think that.
     
  25. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    I think the balancing issue issue could be solved better by changing the resistance order. Before, when Frost and Wash were most popular, Heat had trouble countering (or whatever word was used) Frost iirc. I think this may at least partly be because it was weak to Wash, which could easily eliminate Heat and allow Frost to dominate after.

    If the actions were to stay Kill, Daykill, Poison, Convert, and Distract + Mayor, perhaps something Daykiller > Distractor > Killer > Poisoner > Convert could work. Not entirely sure if this is the best, but what I'm thinking is that Daykillers naturally avoid distract, distract slows down killers, killers have an advantage against poisoners since they're faster (idk this is kinda weak), double poison can control the population of converts, and idk for the last one. Maybe you could try something that works better and makes more logical sense, but see what I'm trying to say? It might mess up the flavor or confuse people if you change what roles do, but I think trying to revise this sequence could balance the theme more than adding actions and buffs to each role (Frost Rotom Jr. is kinda a silly name btw x:)
     
  26. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I get your point, but want to avoid changing the form's ability, so I'd try that only if I'm unable to balance it with the current abilities. The recent update with Heat having Distract (instead of Wash) seems to be the way to go. It's still not the perfect (since then, Heats won 7 games, while Mow only won 1, but that is partly be due to Wash and Mow's nerf too), but it's a beginning.
    BTW, I plan on reverting Heat's distract into a regular distract (AKA not affecting Fan's daykill), since the main difference between Daykills and Nightkills is that the former is, by default, immune to distractions, can bypass protections and doesn't miss a kill due to target overlap, but most of that advantage was lost with Fans being distracted, and to top it, Mows also have their voteshield.

    About Frost Rotom Jr, I agree, but I wanted a name that wouldn't separate both forms in the Roles list. If you have a better suggestion that fits this criteria, I will gladly change it.
     
  27. -Mike-

    -Mike- hi

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    2 inspects for everyone in a small game seems too OP for me somewhat. Maybe try to reduce it to 1 for small games? (Dunno if it was told yet, I have not read other posts)
     
  28. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Mini Frost would work better for the converted people name-wise. It then has a real-life connection then, with fridges and mini-fridges and whatnot.
     
  29. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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  30. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Well, then what do you want? If I'm understanding right the only thing that would make sense is if you went back to Frost Rotom for all and make a note about converted ones in the /roles: frost.
     
  31. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    It doesn't need to be the same name, it just can't be separated by any other form. "Mini" and "Frost" would have "Heat" between them.
    Also, I don't mean /roles, I mean the Current Roles list.
     
  32. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Oh now I understand, it's better when you explain it :x. I'll try to think up stuff, I'll PM if I think of anything more fun.
     
  33. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    I was thinking. Instead to make the rotoms dies from poison if they do not convert: you could make them automatically convert into a random rotom type with a curse if they do not convert.
    It could be interesting for players that likes to test their luck and players that forgets to act during the night will be punished in a less severe way.
     
  34. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Thinking about what Shazan said, that does sound like a nifty idea. That can also throw what may have been a very one-sided game off, which is very beneficial. As for Frost Rotom Jr., only name I could think of is Frosted Mini Rotom.
     
  35. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    Have you thought about letting fans daykill d1 right after they convert? Fans dont last long and it would shift the balance so that Fans could have a fair game.
     
  36. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    The thing is that that's how the original Rotom worked and everyone just went Mow, the daykiller at the time, which meant no strategy.
     
  37. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Random rotom/eevee packaged spawn imo. Just a flavor switch. :3
     
  38. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Just 2 problems I have with Shiny Rotom. Gonna quote the help message.

    As you'll see, it says first night, which refers to night 1. However, when a normal Rotom converts into a shiny Rotom, it is unable to use any of its actions night 2, leaving it extremely vulnerable.

    On top of that, the "inspect as normal Rotom" thing was meant to make the person seem like they're not a threat, but one glance at /roles ends up with the opposite being true. My suggestion, on top of making a second form of Shiny Rotom without a recharge to distinguish converted v spawned Shiny Rotom and let the shiny be worthwhile, is to make the Shiny inspect either as a random side or as the inspector's side.
     
  39. Ascarotte

    Ascarotte Well-Known Member Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    You should like make all the convert roles apart from /random start to have a chance to fail as nights go by, or as more people become that role (harder to join a dominant team). I mean, there are only so many appliances out there to inhabit :O
     
  40. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    lolno. That would go exactly against what I have been trying to do recently, which is to make more people play as a converted form. Anything that disencourages or makes it harder to convert is not desirable, as the theme gets ridiculously dull when most players decide to not convert at all.