[ORAS] Inverted Battle General Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Roku, Nov 3, 2013.

  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Dialga also has a nearly unresisted STAB move to spam, vast coverage to hit anything it wants to, extremely high offensive stats on both spectrums, amazing bulk, more than enough speed to outpace any wall, boosting move (Bulk Up Dialga was deadly in HGSS OU), and a few important resistances (Fighting and Ground are still important in Inverted).

    I see no reason to start testing the 680 BST mons when the metagame is obviously not balanced yet.
     
  2. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    Ok solid points, I'm pretty sure everything can hit it for SE, but it would be a good offensive tank/wall breaker.
    Maybe sometime in the future it could be tested
     
  3. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Let's keep in mind that Dialga still has this kind of bulk:

    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 308-366 (76.2 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 170-200 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 278-330 (68.8 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 380-450 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


    With this kind of power:

    252+ SpA Dialga Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 294-346 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Dialga Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Goodra: 206-244 (53.6 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Dialga Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 234-276 (72.6 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Dialga Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 318-376 (98.4 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

    I mean sure Choice Band Diggersby can kill it in one hit but it's a fucking CB Pure Power pokemon, it hits everything hard no matter what. Plus it's out sped by Dialga. Staraptor not having a 100% chance of OHKOing something it can hit super effectively is pretty important as well. This is like the suggestion to add Giratina to Ghost Monotype.

    Oh right Giratina was actually suggested too. One of the reasons why I stopped playing Inverted and focused more on UU when it came out.
     
  4. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    Ok gonna post some calcs to demonstrate my understanding of what would really happen,
    Btw Jolly Diggersby outspeeds stuff like Modest Porygon-z and Dialga
    You're forgetting SR damage too + I'm using your 252HP/252 Sp. Att set

    252+ SpA Mega Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 398-470 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    4 Atk Avalugg Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 254-300 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Last Resort vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 424-502 (104.9 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 392-464 (97 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (standard 100 Sp. Attack Mon gets clean ohko)
    252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 366-432 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dialga: 382-452 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    Now keep in mind that a lot of common Pokemon in Inverted can hit Dialga for big damage

    On a separate note, both Normal Gem + Chilan Berry (halves Normal type attacks) seem very useful
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  5. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    I've been seeing a lot of people complain about Curselax on the server so I decided to make this set to check it to some degree.

    Weezing(M) @Focus Sash/Lum Berry
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 124HP/124Atk/252Def/4Spd
    Nature: Lax(+Def,-SDef)
    - Clear Smog
    - Explosion/Toxic
    - Pain Split
    - Taunt[/HIDE]



    Clear Smog: To eliminate any stat boosts plus you inflict a little bit of damage.

    Explosion: I prefer to use this after Snorlax has 50% HP or less as it will not survive.

    Pain Split: Being that Snorlax has more HP overall you will always gain more HP back.

    Taunt: Effectively shutting it down from using Curse, Rest, & Sleep Talk.




    Weezing is somewhat of a defensive wall so it can take some good hits from Curselax even at +1. You also have a choice of using Sash to switch into +6 Belly Drum users or Lum Berry to shake off paralysis from Body Slam.

    Toxic can also be used for Snorlax that don't have Immunity & thanks to Gen 6 mechanics it won't miss as Poison types get a 100% accuracy boost.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  6. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    Weezing is just too outclassed by Avalugg to be of any use in monotype due to it's specially defensive stats and the fact that it gets no reliable recovery really really hurts it. Snorlax commonly runs immunity which means toxic is a wasted slot, and due to the fact that it does run rest it eventually just ignores other statuses, like Wow. If snorlax curses' on the switch, and then happens to be running return, Weezing takes half of it's life without really doing anything to snorlax, since weezing is faster than snorlax at that point. If it taunts it just stalls a turn and then can get smashed by return before snorlax switches, still not taking very much/any damage from your set. Venusaur(regular or Mega) Is decently common as well and has similar hp to Weezing, so even if weezing uses pain split when snorlax switches out on venusaur, Giga Drain has awesome coverage in inverted, and hits Weezing's much weaker sp def stat super effectively, healing back most of the hp lost by the pain split.(especially since water isn't common with all of it's weaknesses in the tier, and rock doesn't want to show it's face due to all of the super effective normal types and attacks flying around(never thought I'd get to say that.)
     
  7. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    This set was designed for Inverted Battle not Monotype sir.


    "Toxic can also be used for Snorlax that don't have Immunity"


    Big "if"... that's why you use Clear Smog to eliminate any stat boosts from Curse which makes Snorlax slower than it already is & Return won't hurt much since Weezing has high defense.


    Taunt last 3 turns (Unless opponent switches), then you can switch into Avalugg or whatever Pokémon that has Roar.




    Thanks for reading my set but have you tried it?

    I created this set for a 1 on 1 situation since most players like to hold on to their Curselax till the end or will switch it out once you use Taunt.
     
  8. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Doesn't the fact that you had to create something which has the sole purpose of taking it out alongside itself make you think snorlax is incredibly borked?
     
  9. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    Ikr?

    But I have no idea if Curselax is ever gonna be suspect so until then I'll continue to use Weezing.
     
  10. Wasabi

    Wasabi New Member

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    I used Mega banette for normals and Snorlax with good succes

    Banette@Banetite
    Trait: Prankster (You will usually mega evolve right away but Frisk is helpful for scouting)
    EVs: 252HP/252Atk
    Nature: Adamant(+Atk,-SpAtk)
    - Shadow Claw
    - Protect
    - Disable
    - Destiny Bond

    Basically a double edged sword. Using the weakness to normal as bait to keep the normal pokemon there. I usually scout the normal move with protect and mega evolve and then disable it next turn. If it's choice locked, (which you can discern by frisk), you force then out and get off a powerful Shadow claw on anything. I find this set works well on Curse Lax (since 1 attack) Choiced normal attackers (Banded diggersby, Staraptor etc)

    Can't switch in but it can smart play can net you 2kills easy. Prioirty Destiny Bond to go out when your health is low. Not sure if it's the best EV spread but it's the only one I've tried so far.

    Also I would like to make a shout out to Galvantula in the tier. People don't realize how OP it is. Electric is SE on Dragon, Ground, Electric and Grass in inverted. Pair that with Bug Buzz which is SE against Fairy, fire, flying, poison, ghost, steel and fighting. Giving Galvantula's dual stab a whopping SE coverage over 11 types. No other attacks requried.

    I've been running a lead set but a sweeper set is also viable

    Galvantula@Focus Sash
    Trait: Swarm
    EVs: 252SpAtk/252Spd
    Nature: Timid(+Spd,-Atk)
    - Bug Buzz
    - Thunder Wave
    - Sticky Web
    - Thunderbolt/Electro Ball

    Now the reason I put Electro ball is because of the set I run. He basically leads off my team (unless I can identify a Fake out user), setting up sticky web and paralysing pokemon for as much power on electro ball as possible. It pairs well with Sticky web lowering grounded pokes speed constantly allowing me to PL scarfes and the likes.

    OHKO Garchomp and other powerful ground pokes in the tier after just a Sticky web drop

    Sweeper set to me would be standard galva set.

    Galvantula@Life Orb
    Trait: Swarm/Compound Eyes
    EVs: 252SpAtk/252Spd
    Nature: Timid(+Spd,-Atk)
    - Bug Buzz
    - Giga Drain
    - Sticky Web
    - Thunderbolt/Thunder

    Grass has excellent SE coverage and although it can be redundant to a certain degree with bug, recovering health isn't bad. It helps with the resistance to SR as well for going in and out.
     
  11. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Alright, having played some more inverted recently, I'd propose a suspect on either Snorlax or Alakazite. Snorlax has only one weakness, ghost, and users of ghost-type moves tend to be hitting on the special side, which is where Snorlax is incredibly bulky, tanking boosted hits. It also doesn't help that if you want to have STAB ghost type attacks, then you are putting yourself at risk, since Body Slam will be super effective against you. It can almost always take out at least one member of the opposing team, as long as you don't play it completely badly or get crit unfortunately.

    Mega Alakazam is a powerhouse in the tier too, where modest can outspeed almost anything, giving it 493 special attack. Dual STAB in psychic and psyshock can clear out most of the tier, and energy ball will cover a lot of the rest.

    I won't say too much on either yet, and I haven't decided on the brokenness of either, but I think both would be worth a look.
     
  12. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Given the recent decision on banning Swagger from the XY OU tier, the tier leaders have unanimously agreed to ban Swagger from Inverted Battle. It essentially has the same effect, if not worse, due to the free turns it provides and due to turning the match into a complete and utter coin flip. We firmly believe this is for the best of the metagame. This decision will take effect as soon as owners are notified and tiers are updated.
     
  13. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I've been playing a lot of inverted lately so I'd just like to comment on some existing trends.

    # 1 - Dragonite (20.71 %)
    Thank god it isn't Avalugg, this might just be me spamming Dragonite on literally every team I make but Dragonite deserves to be #1 with Multiscale and a strong Espeed which makes it get almost 2 kills every game (lots of things are 2HKOed by Espeed). This is the reason Stealth Rocks are actually very useful in this tier contrary to what people might say.

    #8 - Scolipede (11.80%)
    A threat. Spike set is pretty good with Endeavor, while SD is lethal especially if it can get the pass off to something like Diggersby or Mega Medicham/Heracross/Garchomp

    # 9 - Celebi (11.16 %)
    Starting to see this a lot ever since I found out that Celebi is such a good attacker because Grass hits a lot of things hard in the metagame. Has the advantage of being weak to a lot of types and access to Heal Bell to let it muscle through Chansey/Blissey

    # 11 - Deoxys-S (10.27 %)
    Suicide leads work a bit better in this tier because of less of a concern with hazards, Psycho Boost doesn't hit very hard though and it has 4MSS, not to mention priority everywhere makes it hard to get more than one layer up (this is like the only tier where you'll see Espeed Deo-S lol)

    #13 - Genesect (9.63%)
    Probably the only Steel that deserves high usage because Extremespeed with a potential Download boost is powerful. Its STABs are a lot more theatening now, although being a Steel-type still hurts (I've seen a lot of Giga Drain Gene though, which are great)

    #14 - Gengar (8.83%)
    Not entirely sure where this is coming from, considering it's weak to so many things (priority, Normal Fighting, U-turn, Grass, Poison) etc. Hits Normal types back, but scarfers and the aforementioned priority are still everywhere which makes it hard for Gengar.

    #24 - Medicham (7.38%)
    This usage might only be coming from @Veteran Padgett because he's the only person I see using it but this is a threat, especially with Fake Out/Bullet Punch hitting a lot of things supereffectively. Fortunately Avalugg is everywhere to counter it but for a team without it you're going to be sacking things to this.

    #28 - Entei (5.70%)
    Surprisingly effective, Assault Vest set is very bulky, Sacred Fire burns are annoying, and having access to Extremespeed makes it useful. Has more natural bulk than Arcanine so it can function as a bulky attacker, although Arcanine is useful for Morning Sun and Intimidate.

    #66 - Keldeo (2.84%)
    Keldeo needs more love, as it has really good coverage with Water/Fighting STAB (Diggersby resists the combination though, so that's a problem). Still, it's fast and it probably 2HKOs almost the entire tier. It's too bad Fighting types are weak to rocks now because it has less opportunities to switch in.

    I think people are starting to realize normal spam isn't that great (it's good I guess but the stuff that it has like Pory-Z and Staraptor aren't very bulky so they die easily), which is good because I think Inverted can be much more than that.
     
  14. Veteran Padgett

    Veteran Padgett TFT Main Developer Developer

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    My own thoughts on some of the usage statistics:

    #1 - Dragonite (21.61%)
    Dragon is just as good offensively in this tier as normal is imo. The only type that resists is dragon, giving even better coverage with dragon/fire than in regular battles (nothing immune to dragon anymore). Defensively it's worse, but Dragonite is able to take all kinds of hits thanks to Multiscale. It's ability and access to Extreme Speed is what puts this Pokemon on top.

    #2 - Diggersby (19.22%)

    #3 - Avalugg (19.15%)
    #7 - Chansey (12.43%)
    I'm putting these two together because I hardly ever see a team that has one but not the other. Avalugg and Chansey form a skarmbliss duo, though not quite as good when Avalugg can't set up hazards. I think if people start exploring other possibilities in the tier they can come up with better teams than Avalugg/Chansey cores however. In fact, Avalugg could probably do just as well without Chansey (see bottom of post).

    #4 Breloom (17.95%)
    #5 Pinsir (13.30%)

    #6 - Porygon-Z (12.50%)
    Porygon-Z's STAB attacks do huge damage to a lot of Pokemon in the tier if not ohko them, and it has a good base 90 speed to outspeed almost everything once it's wearing a scarf. The only other prominent scarf users in the tier who can outspeed it are Genesect @ #11 (who has to U-Turn because it can't take Porygon-Z's attacks) and Staraptor @ #14.

    #14 - Staraptor (9.11%)
    Staraptor plays pretty much the same role as Porygon-Z but with physical attacks. It's not as bulky though and will also take lots of damage from Double-Edge and Brave Bird recoil.

    #28 - Ambipom (6.12%)
    Fake Out + Last Resort, or even just Last Resort, ko's a bunch of pokemon. It's defenses aren't that great though so you won't be switching it in on anything, and you may have to sack some Pokemon to keep it alive.

    #29 - Tyranitar (6.05%)
    I've used Tyranitar before, but it didn't work very well for me. If you want to know why look at the top 6 Pokemon in usage. All of them except for Breloom are solid checks/counters to Tyranitar.

    Other comments on the tier:
    The current metagame is centered around fast physical sweepers. Looking at the top 5 Pokemon, all but Avalugg commonly have priority moves (Dragonite with Espeed, Diggersby and Pinsir with Quick Attack, and Breloom with Mach Punch). These Pokemon also carry moves to boost attack (Dragonite with Dragon Dance, Diggersby Pinsir and Breloom with Swords Dance). And the one Pokemon in the top 5 that doesn't fit with the others is a physical wall (which is why I was saying earlier Chansey doesn't have to be on every team with Avalugg).
     
  15. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    Some of my favourite underrated pokemon are:
    Normal Kyurem has great stats and typing for this tier, physical sets with ice beam can break the Chansey/Avalugg core easy!
    Hydration Manaphy isn't too bad while setting up Calm Mind/Tail Glow (with support tho)
    Band Stoutland is a pretty hard hitting sweeper in sand, Stab Return making huge dents in everything bar Avalugg
    Munchlax is a threat if you don't run Trick or Knock Off, hope people start hopping on that wagon.
    Rhyperior tanks hits from Staraptor/Diggersby while ohko's with stab, pretty neat.
    Mega Aggron can hit hard with Heavy Slam but not as good.

    People need to start using rocks or at least stop hitting Dragonite SE at full health, I facepalm every time :(
    # 1 - Dragonite (36.33 %) lotta usage

    also Air Balloon Flying types are the pinnacle of pro-ness. Hope you enjoyed my ideas
     
  16. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    all right, after playing on PS's inverse battle tier for a while, I would like to propose a Dialga retest

    "but wait epik that shit is like 680 BST cover legendary r u retarded?"

    yes i know that it has high raw stats. but you have to also take a look at its typing. dragon / steel leaves it with 10 weaknesses, especially essential weaknesses like FWGE and normal. hell, shit like ambipom beats dialga 1v1. a x4 in grass is also something horrible to have as well since grass is the downfall of so many good pokemon in the tier currently, and you have to worry about stacking weaknesses, which gives it competition over arguably better pokemon like dnite with its unresisted Extreme Speed. because of all these weaknesses, dialga can generally only come in on a free switch or on ground / fighting hits, its only two resists that arent even that common and are usually run with coverage that will destroy dialga (e.g. edgequake)

    also if you're going to look at stats, Dialga is lacking in a very important stat - speed - making it much different from Deoxys-N if you're going to compare them as broken glass cannons. 90 base speed is not very good and when switching in dialga, you also have to worry about outpacing your opponent, and most mons will usually be faster.

    if you think im just theorymoning out of my ass, ive played about 20-40 battles with it on PS, and it did not get very many opportunities to shine at all.

    however, i get that it has an insanely high special attack and amazing coverage. and i get that this might dissuade people from retesting dialga, but i urge you guys to give it a try. maybe try it out on PS and form your own opinions, or use my experiences to support a retest. I'm not saying that it should be outright unbanned, but a retest would be the best option to see how it would really do in our meta.

    thanks for reading :]
     
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  17. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    There are a few problems I have with testing Pokemon in Inverted (and in Monotype, but that's irrelevant here). My biggest problem would probably be the relative lack of suspects that have gone on in the tier so far. There are quite a few Pokemon that are deserving of a suspect such as Celebi, Mega Medicham, Diggersby, Dragonite, Genesect, and Gothitelle (this is solely my opinion of course). Before introducing potentially game breaking or centralizing elements into the metagame, I'd rather first have it become stable.

    Another issue I have is with the activity of the player base. I've found quite often this gen (and towards the end of last gen) that the player base never really commented much on retests, which allowed very broken elements to go under the radar (such as Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D in Monotype) for much too long. I will admit that this is almost entirely my fault in not starting enough Inverted suspects (mostly because I'm worried about if there will be enough posters). PO's inverted metagame is currently far too underdeveloped to allow for suspects such as Dialga. While it would be cool to have Dialga in a non-Ubers environment, I believe at the moment we need to stabilize the metagame.

    On that note, I'd like to hear what other people think we should test. My list of potential suspects probably differs from a lot of yours and I'd like to find out which suspects you think deserve more priority than others.
     
  18. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    ok so from the list nothing jumps out as immediately "broken", but if i were to order them in the order i would suspect them it would be something like this:

    -diggersby
    -mega medicham
    -dragonite
    -celebi
    -genesect
    -gothitelle

    diggersby jumps out as the most suspect worthy since there are little to no switch-ins on most of its sets, particularly the band set. it kinda has lackluster speed, but ofc it can run scarf and still hits p hard. then ofc theres the sashSD set which terrorized UU and just profits so much on digg's ability to force switches and doesn't get locked into a move.

    mega medicham is kinda in that same boat where its rlly hard to switch in and i rely on mexican strats like paralyzing it with discharge from P2 and taking it down. ofc there are marginally more switch-ins to megamedi than there are to digg, such as rhyperior and of course avalugg. however, aside from standard fake out + 3 attacks, theres also bulk up, which takes advantage of the forced switches and can 2HKO avalugg at +1 with psycho cut, which is p impressive.

    dragonite, the top used mon, is of course very threatening, but its really more of a one trick pony. bandnite will usually only use extremespeed, theres very little need to click another button, except the occasional EQ for ditto matchups or ice beam to nail that avalugg switch-in. DDnite isnt too great because it just has so many exploitable weaknesses, but its all right if you can get it going.

    celebi is also one of the top mons and of course quite anti-meta with its grass typing raping shit like celebi. at +6 it can 2HKO chansey with LO, a really impressive feat. but of course, it too is plagued with common weaknesses like grass itself and ground, as well as others. also base 100 speed means its not to hard to revenge kill, and it doesnt get any priority of its own in such a priority-centric meta like inverted.

    genesect is one of my favorite inverted mons just for the sake that it can grab momentum so easily. its STAB attacks have improved and it just has great coverage all around, also being unpredictable and running a variety of sets. however, each set has its own downfall. in general, genesect just misses out on base 100, which rlly sucks if you're banded and want to go up against celebi, and scarf will kinda lack on power if you really need it. also weak to a lot of good priority moves like extreme speed and ice shard and fake out and bullet punch so that really sucks.

    goth fucks over stall completely, and basically does what any stag user does, supports the team and takes down specialized targets to open holes for a sweep. basically, if you rely on stall, it will really give you a hard time, but with the standard team, what you'll mostly be seeing is a one for one tradeoff at worst.

    ive just talked about the whole list now. damn that was long. other than digg and mega medi at the top a lot of these are really not set in stone in terms of ordering, especially genesect.

    tl;dr just look at the list if you dont care about the reasons

    IMPORTANT EDIT: LINOONE IS A LORD
     
  19. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    It doesn't need to follow my list by the way (it's mine for a reason!). If you think something else should be suspected or maybe if you think some things aren't even worth suspecting you can just list/not list them (reasons would be good though since this is a discussion thread).
     
  20. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    i just felt like talking about all of them lol, but ok what i believe would warrant a suspect would be diggersby, then mega medicham, for reasons i explained. basically its the thing about having no safe switch-ins, especially with diggersby. all the rest of the listed pokemon are great pokemon, dont get me wrong, but aren't suspect worthy or "broken" (i listed reasons in my other long post). even the two mons i listed have their cons, with digg having subpar speed and mega medi actually having a good handful of switch-ins
     
  21. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    The only thing that doesn't get 2HKO'd by CB Diggersby is Avalugg and maybe Cloyster, which can't even do anything back to Digg because it resists its two STABs unless you're running Rock Blast, but then you're running the shell smash variant anyways who can't switch in

    Diggersby is quite easy to bring in as well with important resistances to Grass, Water, Fighting and Ice, which means your Keldeo needs to be running some weird shit like HP Poison (it's viable, I destroy Rhyperiors with it) as its coverage move. Don't forget STAB priority Quick Attack which is unresisted.

    If you want to talk about Diggersby's poor bulk I could just refer you to the UU suspect discussion. Only thing that really hurts it in inverted is a weakness to Volt Switch and Stealth Rocks but once it gets in something is very very likely dying. Sash SD plays the same way it did in UU

    Mega Medicham is also only countered by Avalugg and maybe the weird Regirock (which is awful in inverted, because pure Rock is weak to lots of things like Fire, Normal, Flying, even though it does resist Water and Grass Regirock won't be beating a Celebi any time soon). Terrakion resists its dual STAB and Bullet Punch but Fake Out does a shitton and HJK probably 2HKOs it anyways lol

    Everything else is quite manageable. Dragonite isn't much of a problem if you have a tanky Grass or Dragon-type on your team and you've broken Multiscale; Genesect is weak to priority so if you can live Band Espeed you're good; Gothitelle is one of the best answers to that lame AvaChans stall, I might be biased because I always use it on offensive teams to break through it if I don't have a stall breaker like NP Celebi, it's highly matchup reliant as well imo and unless you're running the phys def set it's very frail.

    Then again a simple Scarf Gothitelle can do about 60% to Avalugg with Psychic and bring it in range for any of your other mons to finish it off; it can Trick Chansey/Blissey/Pory2 to render it useless; and it can revenge things that you don't want to keep letting your opp switch in and get free damage (Mega Medi), so I can see where you're going from here but I personally don't think it's bannable. You can definitely run viable inverse stall without the things I mentioned - Mega Venu / Rhyperior / Salamence / Lando-T are examples of defensive mons that can handle Goth so it's not like stall autoloses

    tl;dr should totally suspect Diggersby & Medichamite
     
  22. Micaiah

    Micaiah Bop it

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    I believe diggers would be a good first suspect, then followed by mega medi. Like Epik has said, nothing switches into the banded set getting 2hkos on most pokes and 1hkos on others. Only problem is its speed, but that can be worked around with a scarf, still doing over 50% to most things in the tier. Mega Medi is also another strong mon, only having a couple more switch ins like Rhyperior, Porygon2, Defensive Arcanine. Its stronger than Banded Jolly diggers, which is pretty impressive although its stab isjnt as easily spammble as return.

    Just a minor post stating my opinion
     
  23. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    I get why you'd want to Suspect Diggersby but I think its pretty manageable (for me anyway)
    If you run a tank like Avalugg or Hippo you can switch in and damage it, even Rhyperior works (without rocks up)
    252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 193-229 (44.4 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    I'd like to propose a suspect on Chansey/Porygon2 and Avalugg on the same team, its pretty hard to counter and a lot more centralized than Medichanite or Diggersby imo.
    As far as the Dialga retest goes, Im sure it might bring players back into inverted to try it out.
    Sulcata said the tier isn't really developed but I'd have to disagree. People know what's effective and the same pokemon are used all the time.
     
  24. Micaiah

    Micaiah Bop it

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    Considering the fact that the banded set is much more common and usually the superior set, Rhyperior cant even switch in

    252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 265-312 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    and Hippo gets 2hko'd after rocks
    252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

    So really Avalugg is the only reliable switch in to it.

    As for the Avachan+Pory2, i really dont find it /that/ bad but that could be cause i run gothitelle on pretty much every single team i make. But mons like Reuniclus ,Goth Mega Garde Meloetta Mamoswine beat the core by themselves, and im pretty sure im missing some other things that beat it.
     
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  25. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    We're not complex banning a combination of Pokemon. If one is too good at support/walling, then it will be suspected by itself.

    On a side note I'll be throwing up a Diggersby suspect soon.

    Edit: If you can get enough attention for one of the Pokemon, then I'd be fine with suspecting it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
  26. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Going to call complete bullshit on this because of the massive defensive coupling that is ChanLugg (Chansey + Avalugg, can be substituted with Blissey if needed). With Chansey/Blissey's skyhigh Special Defense and Avalugg's skyhigh Defense, these two alone are the main issue with teambuilding for this tier, often leading the builder to figure out how on earth to beat both Pokemon with one set because they know the opponent will just switch to whatever defense they need. Since I'm on my phone right now I'm not going to get into too much detail, but if others want to back me up, feel free. The coupling is highly overcentralizing, thus why I feel we need a suspect on either Avalugg or ChanLugg/BlissLugg.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
  27. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    There are good defensive cores in every tier; there are also ways to break them in every tier (including this one!!!!) I advise trying to come up with a way to do so and changing your team if it is weak to "ChanLugg" instead of proposing an unrealistic combination ban that would break all previously established precedents for the tiering policy.
     
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  28. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    What are you calling bullshit on ?_?

    There's no reason that this calls for a complex ban as opposed to other members of defensive cores that have been suspected/banned in the past.

    If you have trouble with Chansey/Avalugg on offensive teams there are plenty of Pokemon to run.

    Trick Porygon-Z (trick anything really)
    Ice Beam DDNite
    Abomasnow
    NP Celebi
    Gothitelle
    Knock Off Landorus-I (or anything special that can also run knock off)
    Keldeo
    Cloyster
    LO Latios

    Defensively they aren't hard to wall and neutralize.

    If anything I think these two are good to prevent mons like Porygon-Z, Staraptor, Ambipom, and whatever else from just spamming normal moves as they please.
     
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  29. Wasabifold

    Wasabifold New Member

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    Something that's been really bugging me about the inverted tier in recent times is the balance. The Balance. The Balance. Never seems to be balanced. But why is that? You ban this poke, then another poke, still more pokes after that and it's never balanced. Before I talk about how we can balance it, I'll just talk about the concept of Inverted. Gamefreak for 6 generations now have been building pokemon the way it currently is, with 17 different types of pokemon where the types are in a unique relationship of resistances, weaknesses and immunities to form some sort of balance. This could be a wall of text, but I ask that you bare with me.

    Now with inverted, they decide to pose the question of "what if it was all reversed?". All fine for a unique user experience, which was its purpose. To give you a nice distraction from the tried and true tested gaming format. As for as competitively, it was never for such purposes. But if we are gonna do a competitive Inverted Tier, then I think some things need to be adjusted from an overall perspective of the tier that may completely deviate from gamefreak's definition of the inverted tier. Banning one poke at a time really does nothing in the overall view of the tier, because in the end, Normal is still broken, FUCK Avalugg+Chansey, and Steel is shit. That's basically what the tier has devolved to and every ban gets nowhere to resolving these issue. With some seriously ridiculous megas on the way with ORAS, I feel the tier is gonna be thrown off the deep end unless some restructuring is done.

    The problem with inverted has to do with the concept itself and it's implementation. Just because one thing works one way doesn't mean switching it around means it will work properly the other way. And here are some things that differ from normal game play that messes with balance in inverted.

    1. Lack of good defensive core type:

    Steel is the defensive center of the entire battle system in pokemon. They pack a tonne of resistances, they pack great defensive stats to go with these resistances, so they can tank powerful moves of many types in the game over and over again. It allows for diversity in the types used in offense, but with a nice pool of pokemon to choose from, who will be capable of stopping most threats, instead of having to get 3 or 4 other types combined to be pretty well covered defensively, steel alleviates the needs for such strategies. Gamefreak never thought to have as many defensive powerhouses in other types as in steel because that was steel's entire job, to be that defensive nucleus for the game. Inverted has no such type, gamefreak has turneds all resistance AND Immunities into weaknesses and left us with no type capable of being as good as steel. Ironically, ice is now a good defensive type with several key resistances and 1 weakness, but because of the way the game was designed, ice type itself lacks pokemon with good enough defensive stats to utilize these resistances that exist in the inverted tier. Why design good defensive ice pokemon when ice is bad defensively? You basically have Avalugg or Regice. That's it.

    2. Immunities:

    No immunities is the biggest thing. Full out immunities are key for the tier, Dragon was OP, now fairies have created a nice balance, they aren't as all powerful as before. Flying being immune to Earthquake have a done a a nice job of nerfing the type that for the most part, was considered the best offensive move in the whole game. I think this is the main reason inverted is so messed up. Because of no immunties, nothing can stop normal, nothing but rocks and steels can stop EQ and they are bad because of the ever-present normal spam. The tier has just been completely tilted towards Pro-offense. Offensive pokemon need not even worry with coverage moves if they can make their 1 or 2 STABS beat everything else that's prevalent in the tier, making ample room in sets for set up/recovery moves that otherwise, coverage move slots would have taken up.

    3. Normal OVER 100:

    Normal has been the basic type as designed by Gamefreak, the gains-nothing, give up nothing type. Normal gained no real power over other types, and thus lacked too many other types having power over it. Thus because of no other type being weak to it's attack, Gamefreak compensated by giving the type itself more attacks than any other type over the base 100 mark. You have:

    Return, Frustration, Mega Kick, Giga Impact, Facade, Retalaliate, Double Edge, Explosion, Egg Bomb, Head Charge, Hyper Beam, Boomburst, Judgement, Last Resort, Self-Destruct, Skull Bash, Techno Blast and Thrash.

    It has more over base 100 power attacks than any other type. To be unresisted and have this many options over base 100 basically guarantees an inability for the other competing types to be able to effectively stop you.

    It's actually clear that Avalugg is the only thing right now keeping this tier together. It could all fall apart without the behemoth.

    To me these 3 problems with the very make up of the tier are what make this tier so unbalanced and unappealing for newer players to get into. And partly, it was handled wrong. We just accepted the new type formats, and slapped the same old clauses we use in regular gameplay on it, when at least some planning should have gone into what was really necessary to balance this tier. Inverted could be a really good tier, but it's plagued by inappropriate treatment.

    I think you can see what I'm getting at. In my opinion, there needs to be some additional clauses for this tier, and we should have a thread to discuss what clauses if any should be added. Not to the server overall, but clauses designed specifically to balance inverted. There are features of the tier that are just too broken to leave in, same way sleep clause was made to stop abuse of sleep. Things of this nature need to be adapted to cover the broken aspects of this tier.

    Some ideas I had were reallowing immunities into the tier and making the reversal of type advantages relate solely to resistances and weaknesses but leave the immunties constant. Allow fairies and ghost to find their way into the tier as viable checks for the types that most defensive pokemon are having trouble stopping. I don't know if this would be allowed but the tier as it stands doesn't lend itself to much defensive play outside of a select few pokemon.

    Also with such good neutral coverage, stopping normal types and maybe dragons as well from boosting their offensive stats when carrying STAB moves over base 100 might work to limit the needs for Avalugg so much. Their neutral coverage with just one move is too good to just let pokemon like Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Dragonite, Mega pinsir and even lesser used like Sawsbusk and Zangoose, swords dance and boost up with no type able to resist the attack, everything without over base 150 defense and recovery is fucked and that's just a major problem. Those last 2 are currently left out only because avalugg is able to check them but let's say for instance we banned avalugg, swords dance facade toxic boost zangoose, swords dance double edge, horn leech sawsbuck and other normal types would suddenly be able to thrive unperturbed.

    Anyways, we could discuss this here, or make a thread specifically for discussing Inverted Tier balancing, cause to me the tier needs work. It's not 1 particular poke that is breaking the tier, and as such, banning individual pokemon one at a time who are better at taking advantage of the mechanics than others doesn't solve the problem. It is the mechanics themselves that need looking at. I know this was a wall of text, but what do you guys think?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
  30. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    It may be (it is) entirely accurate to say that Inverted goes against what Game Freak has put some solid effort into designing, which is their type system. It's actually one of the better balance aspects in this game. It is also completely true to say that the normal type is the best type in the metagame, but these things are obvious.

    I'm not sure what your main point was really driving at. You have pointed out why (mostly correctly imo) Inverted will never really be a balanced metagame like other metagames. You proposed the idea of additional clauses. Which depending on your ideas might be interesting, but I can't think of anything good myself. You also proposed changing the mechanics, even if this were to be effective, I am almost certain it wouldn't happen. We have never and I'm pretty sure we will never, change game mechanics for the sake of "balance". Sleep Clause is in its simplest form, a change of mechanics, but it's something that can be done with an honor system in the real games at least, immunities in Inverted is not.

    Without mechanic shifts (which aren't happening) or some really creative clauses, Inverted is always going to be an extremely offensive metagame, much like my second favourite meta of all time, DPP LC. Stall was completely impossible in that metagame, there was no ChanseyLugg core to fall back on either. Potentially the best way to see the tier balanced in the way you want it (that is within the realms of possibility) is with a large number of quick suspects of extreme threats. But honestly if you want a metagame in which defensive play is on an even close to equal footing with offense, you either gotta ban Goth, so ChanseyLugg gets more disgusting and then ban a bunch of threats after that, or simply don't play inverted. I do not see it within the realms of possibility to "save" Inverted in the sense you mean to.
     
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  31. Chopin Alkaninoff

    Chopin Alkaninoff New Member

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    I actually agree with almost everything Wasabifold said. Banning some pokemon won't stop Inverted Battle from being unbalanced. Even if Medichamite is banned (which is currently being suspected), it won't have a significant impact to balance the metagame. There is powerhouses like Eviolite Munchlax, Toxic Boost Zangoose Facade, Porygon2, etc. And we will have a worse metagame if Chansey or Avalugg is banned. In fact, I am glad that Avalugg exist so that stall team is viable in Inverted Battle.

    I've heard many people said that Inverted Battle is full of broken pokemon. In fact, it isn't. The main point which makes Inverted Battle unbalanced is type matchups, not broken pokemon. No immunities just makes this tier really offensive oriented, as every attacking moves will deal damage. Normal is unresisted, Grass and Bug deals Super Effective damage to many types, while steel has too many weaknesses. It's ridiculously messed up. In fact, I think even Kyurem is better than Dialga if it's allowed.

    I've been trying to make a stall team without the need of Chansey, Blissey or Avalugg. Haven't had any success so far. It's just too offensively oriented.

    If anyone have a suggestion of what pokemon to use for making a stall team without Chansey, Blissey, or Avalugg, let me know.
     
  32. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    Here's some cool defensive stuff that ISN'T Avalugg + Chansey/Blissey:

    Zygarde: RestTalk/Dtail/Espeed, or SubCoil/Dtail/Espeed. Very good bulk with its only weaknesses being Fire, Electric, Rock, and Poison, the latter two being fairly uncommon in Inverted.

    Arcanine: With all the physical priority being prominent, Intimidate works very well with this dog. Flare Blitz/WoW/Morning Sun/Espeed is a stop to most physical things bar Genesect, Zard-X, and the odd Virizion (maybe SD Celebi but ?????)

    Mega Abomasnow: Only thing holding it back imo is that Grass weakness but it has monstrous bulk and the all important Grass stab for Dragons and Flying-types, wrecks Talonflame and breaks Dnite's Multiscale simply by switching in. No recovery out of Leech Seed hurts it though, especially without Leftovers.

    Deoxys-D: Insane defensive stats coupled with a movepool able to break stall itself as well (Taunt, hazards, Toxic, Recover, Wrap). Only two weaknesses as well.

    Vaporeon: Only weak to Fire and Steel thanks to Water Absorb, good utility with Wish Passing + Scald/Roar/Heal Bell

    Hippowdon: Avalugg with sand, but no spinning. Also weak to rocks, which is unfortunate, but Hippo is a great switch-in to anything physical not named Mega Medicham or Tyranitar.

    Rhyperior: Fuck Normal-type weakness, Solid Rock is incredible and it counters Breloom & Keldeo pretty hard outside of the rare HP Poison (not a thing). Run Lightningrod if you REALLY want to troll.

    Entei: Slap an Assault Vest on this thing and it'll be like Arcanine on the specially defensive side, minus the recovery and a little more physically-oriented.

    Mega Venusaur: I see you about to rail on me for the 4x Grass weakness, but Celebi or Breloom can't switch in on this anyways. Very tanky, Leech Seed/Synthesis/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb hits all the meta for good damage outside Chansey/Blissey but you can stall alongside them thanks to Leech Seed's %health recovery. Don't keep this in on Latios though.

    Garchomp: For Extreme Speed/Quick Attack spam. Have a Rough Skin/Rocky Helmet residual damage to the face. Don't even think about attacking with Talonflame.

    **Manaphy?: Haven't tried this out, but Tail Glow/Heal Bell/Surf/Energy Ball seems like death to stall though idk if it can get through Chansey at +6

    Goodra: Sap Sipper says fuck you Celebi. Decent Assault Vest user with good movepool (Dragon Tail, Thunderbolt, Muddy Water, Fire Blast) or you could go RestTalk with Dtail + Fire Blast/Tbolt

    Porygon2: This is probably not what you're actually looking for since it's pretty similar to Chans/Bliss but actually can do something offensively

    Obviously none of this stuff can cover as many threats as Avalugg and Chansey can but if you want some alternatives that aren't completely one-dimensional then there you go.

    EDIT: Cresselia is extremely tanky, SubCM Moonlight Psychic/Psyshock has no immunities but I'm pretty sure you can't beat both Avalugg and Chansey with that set, maybe SubCM Toxic Psyshock would work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2014
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  33. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    clean double post here, but some thoughts on how the new Megas will fare in Inverted:

    Mega Sceptile: If Dragonite is god, this is probably his right hand. Lightningrod to nullify his 4x electric weakness, powerful specially offensive stats and speed to outrun the whole tier outside scarfers. Grass is the best STAB in Inverted as it'll destroy Dragonite, Lati@s, Mega Venusaur, and the new Mega Salamence. Dragon has good neutral coverage and nothing in this tier resists Sceptile's STABS. Not really much else to use in his other slots, but Leaf Storm is a good nuke if needed and you can run HP Poison for Rhyperior if you really want to.

    Mega Slowbro: Fighting/Psychic/Steel/Water/Fire weaknesses. Other than that, you could feasibly run the CroCune set on this thing thanks to Inverted need less STABs to go off of.

    Mega Lopunny: Ambipom does the Fake Out + Last Resort job better, so don't bother. Ability is useless since Normals already hit Ghosts, and you're probably better off just using Frustration/HJK/Encore/Filler to annoy defensive mons.

    Mega Beedrill: Death of Avalugg with a simple U-turn into Gothitelle. The only trick is getting this in safely, as Beedrill has no defenses so it gets shit on by priority, especially Breloom.

    Mega Salamence: lol. Dragon Dance/Hyper Voice/Return/Earthquake destroys the entier tier except for like, phys def Emboar (please don't use this). Sadly as fun as this is it's going to need a suspect because its power is ridiculous. I mean, Breloom can probably revenge it but that's really all you have to deal with it after a +1/+1.

    Other cool things are Mega Pidgeot with a spammable Hurricane, Mega Swampert for rain, and Glalie for Refrigerate shenanigans. Nothing more satisfying than Exploding on a Chansey and taking it out for your team to sweep.
     
  34. Chopin Alkaninoff

    Chopin Alkaninoff New Member

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    Okay. Before it gets banned, I wanna share some things about Mega Salamence. Note that I don't accuse this pokemon is "broken or not." I just want to share some things that I studied and found so far, based on both analysis and experience of using this pokemon.

    Mega Salamence IS fast, no doubt. Almost nothing can outspeed it after using a Dragon Dance. So, in order to stop this pokemon, one has to take damage then fight back. Please notify if there are any mistakes in my calculations

    Based on what I've found so far, these are the things that stop Mega Salamence
    1. Focus Sash Breloom: If Breloom is in full health, it is a check to any kind of set Mega Salamence run, including SubRoost, DD, as one Bullet Seed will KO Mega Salamence. If it doesn't get KOed by Bullet Seed, Mach Punch it in the next turn.

    For offensive set (Dragon Dance mix or pure Physical/Special)

    2. Keldeo: This is actually conditional. If Mega Salamence doesn't carry Outrage or Stone Edge, it will fail to 1hko Keldeo, as Draco Meteor doesn't 1hko unless if it has Stealth Rock up AND Mega Salamence invest heavily in Special Attack. Hydro Pump alone will 1hko Mega Mence, unless it heavily invest in Special Defense. What if Mega Mence carry Hydro Pump? See here:
    252 SpA Salamence (120 Sp. Atk) Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    So even if invested in Special Attack, it fails to 1hko (unless with Stealth Rock). Same goes for Fire Blast. What about +1 Earthquake?
    +1 252 Atk Salamence (145 Attack) Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 193-228 (59.7 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock. So the only thing to worry about is Stone Edge and Outrage, which both resisted by Dragonite.

    3. Avalugg/Chansey: If it runs pure Physical/Special (which is bad in my opinion), Avalugg/Chansey stop it. See here:
    +1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence (145 Attack) Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 108-128 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- 72.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    So Avalugg will either Toxic and keep Recovering or just Roar the hell out of it. Even if Mega Salamence DD multiple times, it won't survive Toxic damage unless it runs Roost. Physically Devensive Arcanine can also stop the pure Physical set with Will o' wisp.

    4. Scarf Ditto: If Mega Salamence carries Earthquake or Fire Blast, this will stop it. It won't stop if Mega Salamence carries Roost though.

    5. Mega Gallade: Again, if Mega Salamence doesn't carry Stone Edge, Outrage, or Zen Headbutt, it fails to 1hko, while Close Combat 1hkoes it. Same goes for Mega Medicham, but Mega Medicham fails if there are Stealth Rock up.

    6. Infernape: Almost the same conditions as Mega Gallade, but with Fire Blast. Close Combat is 1hko.

    7. Mega Abomasnow: This time, if it doesn't carry Earthquake, but carry Stone Edge instead. Giga Drain 1hkoes it while Mega Mence fails to 1hko with everything else, including Outrage. See here:
    +1 252 Atk Salamence (145 Attack) Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 306-360 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    8. Mega Venusaur: Same conditions as Mega Abomasnow.

    9. Celebi: Same conditions as Abomasnow, but cannot take +1 Outrage or Zen Headbutt

    10. Mega Charizard X: If it doesn't carry Return, but Outrage instead, it can take anything Mega Salamence throw at (except Fire Blast) while Flare Blitz 1hko.

    This is the analysis of just the possible DD set. I haven't analyze for the other sets. Also, this is mostly assuming Mega Salamence doesn't carry bulk investment, because it's the sweeper set. Feel free to correct it if there are any mistakes.

    Edit: My mistake. Infernape 1hko if it's holding a Life Orb
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2014
  35. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    Salamencite is now banned in the Inverted Battle tier.

    We decided to ban it for its ability to destroy the tier with the variety of sets it can viably use. Due to its increased bulk and the Intimidate attack drop pre-mega evolution, Salamencite can utilize its sets to a greater degree. The addition of Aerilate brings another level to Mega Mence's already increased power.

    This change is implemented on the server.
     
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  36. VirajVora

    VirajVora VirajVora...

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    Since Hidden Ability Serperior is coming via an event, it can be used in Inverted Battle too... (If I am not wrong...)
    So how is it going to affect Inverted Battle with Leaf Storm ?
    Who's better from both ? Celebi/Serperior ?
     
  37. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    It depends what you're using it for. i don't think comparing them as better or worse than each other is accurate.
    Serperior has a much better speed tier and essentially a Grass-type Nasty Plot+Draco Meteor, but also has lower base SAtk (weaker 1st hit) and overall much lower defenses.
    Celebi at least fairs better vs. Tyranitar and Dark-types using Sucker Punch. Celebi also can function as a cleric or wall with a much better support movepool and instant recovery.

    I'm planning to test Serp out next time I log in.
     
  38. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Neo
    From my experience, I think Serperior is broken in the current inverted meta; it has a great speed tier and a 130 bp stab move which also acts as a free nasty plot boost, thanks to Contrary. Not to mention grass type attacks are the best stab moves on inverted. Basically the moveset it runs is Leaf Storm/Giga Drain/Hidden power/Substitute or Taunt; HP Rock is the most preferred as it hits mons like Rhyperior/Keldeo super-effectively who resist its grass stab. Sub protects it from status, where as Taunt allows to beat special walls like Chansey/Blissey 1v1.

    Overall I think it's unhealthy for the meta and deserves a suspect at the very least.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  39. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    Although I'm not sure if I agree with a Serperior ban, I agree with it having a suspect.

    Serperior boasts a really good speed tier and couple that with its great STAB in Inverted, it's pretty threatening. With Contrary, Serperior became much more effective as not much can switch into a +2 Leaf Storm. I kinda view Serperior the way I viewed Greninja in OU/Monotype: it's pretty frail but puts on a lot of pressure on opposing teams to play around it.

    But yeah, I'd like to hear more on it.
     
  40. Chopin Alkaninoff

    Chopin Alkaninoff New Member

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    My thoughts on Serperior: unlike Diggersby, whose counter is only Avalugg, Serperior actually have some counters or checks that are viable, namely:
    Chansey: obvious
    Rhyperior: this thing is a fullstop to Serperior, unless you run weird thing like HP poison. No, +2 HP Fire doesn't KO.
    Crawdaunt: More like a check. It can take a Leaf Storm hit and LO/band adap aqua jet 1HKO.
    Azumarill: same as Crawdaunt
    Sap Sippers: Goodra, Miltank, Gogoat, Bouffalant all can stop Serperior with its ability.
    Greninja: it resist Leaf Storm and faster. Also a check I think.

    From what I say in my experience Serperior is more managable than Diggersby. I has much less bulk than Celebi, so revenge killing it would be easier.

    Also I want to tell that Mega Lopunny is grossly underrated, and no. It's not Ambipom and its best set is NOT Fake Out/Last Resort. I don't even know why it's ranked B in viability. It performs much better than Mega Medicham at revenge killing with its dual priority in Fake Out/Quick Attack, both are unresisted and get STAB. It is very fast (Adamant Mega Lopunny outspeed Jolly Ambipom) and its base form isn't weak to Stealth Rock, which is nice. It also doesn't get shitted by Breloom's Mach Punch and it can also revenge the mentioned Serperior. It's bulkier than Mega Medicham too.

    Idk actually what's everyone's opinion on this, but from my experience Mega Lopunny performs much better than Mega Medicham in most cases.
     
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