Mienfoo gets beasted by cotton candy and Fletch. Cotton candy just gets unburden activated on the knock off and Fletch can just protect on the fake out and OHKO (or it can just take a few fake outs cause it 3HKOs). Mienfoo isn't as bad as I thought it would be. True it can destroy every defensive mon in the tier bar sticky hold users, but defensive stuff has never been that good. I think gen 6 hurt it more than it helped.
Seriously this has nothing to do with what can wall Mienfoo, this is the sheer level of ridiculous support Mienfoo provides for any offensive team, rendering any vaguely defensive team seriously inferior. The way it can easily come into play, remove an eviolite that isn't on Grimer/Trubbish (it isn't just a pun to say that they're otherwise trash) and leave play for free or better than free is stupid. It's not knock off that's the problem, it's Mienfoo with it. With other knock off pokemon in the tier you have to think strategically and will generally only remove 1 eviolite against a well played team. With Mienfoo against a team with any degree of defensive synergy you can easily remove multiple a game with minimal prediction, providing huge support for a lot of the offensive pokemon in the tier, I frankly think that without Mienfoo's support Yanma was a lot more borderline, and for other pokemon like Murkrow, Meditite etc it creates a lot of OHKOs and 2HKOs that wouldn't usually be there with zero risk. It's Mienfoo's speed and ability and natural bulk that pair with Knock Off that contribute to it almost single handedly making defensive playstyles unviable. Its ability to hit hard no longer is much of an issue imo though the fact that it can on a good amount of the tier in addition to all of this certainly helps it. Mienfoo is absolutely disgusting in XY LC and needs to go, ASAP, and before any other suspects.
RIP sub forum I don't get how Mienfoo helps Yanma and Murkrow sweep. Like really things that check/counter those two have no business staying in on Mienfoo in the first place, like seriously do you even play LC. Here is an example Murkrow eviolite gets walled by porygon, would Porygon ever switch in or stay to Mienfoo at all? Same with Archen, Chinchou, Lileep, Mantyke, etc. The only thing that would get some benefit from Mienfoo from those three pokemon would be Meditite because of the same fighting typing, but even then things like Slowpoke and Honedge have no business switching in into Mienfoo at all (Btw those two are probably the only things that can switch into Meditite iirc), other than predicting every move) You are over exaggerating the amount of support Mienfoo actually has this gen even last, you just don't like the pokemon at all for some reason. Just because playing XY LC with Mienfoo in the meta, doesn't mean you to ban it. Even if you think what Mienfoo does is unfair still gives you no right, and atleast try to give some in game examples like displaying a list of defensive teams that absolutely get destroyed by Mienfoo. I'll give you chance: Please list a generic or your own defensive team that Mienfoo runs over.
Yay semi-revived sub-forum!!! Mienfoo isn't broken at all imo. Fletchling = ded foo 100% and it can switch in on any move bar stone edge (and I have only seen one stone edge Mienfoo). Swirlix can come in and get an immediate unburden too. It is without a doubt the best user of knock off, but it can't stay in on birds and psychics like Stunky can. Stunky needs more luv, gen 6 just made it a bagilion times better. I'm iffy on Meditite. It hits like a god damn freight train, but is completely walled by Honedge/Slowpoke. Meditite is more deadly than Yanma, but has true counters unlike Yanma. With Honedge everywhere it makes Meditite's life much more difficult. Meditite is p easy to revenge with Fletch/Krow/Missy. Merry Christmas and happy new year LC, and happy w/e for the rest of you.
Hey. Looking to gauge interest in a sub-forum tour. Get some play going on. Could also do a forum challenge. Which do you guys think is best? (I'm partial to the Sub-Forum tour idea myself). Also do you think there are any potential suspects.
I'm in for both but seeing as we have a XY LC tour going on in the main Tours forum if we do another tour, it should be a bit different. But like I said i'm good for either. As for potential suspects, only Pokemon that springs to mind could be Murkrow but I think the meta is pretty good atm.
Personally I'd prefer a forum challenge, similar to the Money Problems Challenge in BW2 NU (see: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?21788-Money-Problems-NU-Challenge). Get people using some of the more underrated Pokémon.
I'm wondering when LC UU will open up. LC is stable right now, so I think LC UU could be created about now. With a 4% cut off like UU we would have a cool tier with stuff like Froakie, Drifloon, and Spritzee roaming around and sun would probably be everywhere. I think it's time to create XY LC UU.
LC UU isn't happening this gen unless something changes. Nobody played it last gen, and there's not much usable and new this gen, so it will be the same. Nobody even plays normal LC this gen :D
Time for thread revival ~ So right now there are 3 options (or combinations of) I feel we could possibly go with to change the tier: Swirlix Suspect Meditite Suspect Unban Berry Juice So if you want to see changes ( or if you think the tier is perfect as it is) then post which you like the best. I don't expect essays but some reasoning will go a long way to help your arguments. Thanks
I see no reason to ban Swirlix here. I have never had a problem with it, especially with the new priority users, and the amount of things that can OHKO it before unburden. Meditite is mehish to me in this meta. I've seen it used to destroy whole teams yes, but I have yet to experience even the slightest problem from one out of TR. I do see the Berry Juice unban as an option, but that will instantly break Swirlix so idk there.
Personally I'm for this just because of how ridiculous it is to prepare for Swirlix. The unpredictability of Swirlix is what makes it that threatening. Firstly there's the Calm Mind variants that arent that hard to check/counter. Anything with a bit of bulk can survive an attack and KO Swirlix. Then there's Belly Drum set that is much more threatening than the weak CM set. Only needing one turn to set up and sweep. BD/Play Rough/Return are standard with moves like Sub, Flamethrower, Aromatherapy and Thief being options for last slot. BD is much harder to check imo since it depends on the last move slot. Flamethrower deals with Ferroseed and other Steels. Sub bluffs a CM set and gets a free pass to set up a BD. It also blocks vs status and priority. Aroma and Thief are a bit inferior imo especially the latter with the lack of Berry Juice. Aroma can cure status, which otherwise is a death sentence for Swirlix. Then probably the most threatening set would be the CM + Cotton Guard set. I've used it a lot and I must say its pretty ridiculous. At +3 Def Meditite(other priority users) isnt beating it without hax. With Draining Kiss and an Oran Berry Swirlix cant be worn down by weak priority etc. The combination of power + speed + unpredictability just makes Swirlix too much for the tier. I'm not saying its 100% borked, just that it needs a suspect. Regarding Berry Juice, I'm kinda on the fence. On the one side it makes the meta a bit more offensive and increases item diversity. It does, however, push Sturdy Smashers a bit over the edge. Maybe look at a Sturdy + Juice or something option? Also why is tier dead smh.
Berry juice unban OR DEATH. Would add the diversity LC needs and give several pokes such as munchlax,bronzor and tyrant a new lease on life Of course if it is unbanned swirlix needs to go. As it stands now however, the only set that is broken IMO is belly drum. CM can be dealt with via paralysis and is always walled by something. Cotton guard cm is formidable, but takes a while to set up. Medidouche needs to go. It kills everything and makes me want to claw my eyes out. It has a coverage move for just about everything and makes me want to stab something every time i see it ;-;
I can agree to the suspect of both, and I vote for a ban. Meditite has clear factors, but I'll mention them anyway. To start off with, his blazing 28 attack without any item that boosts his attack due to his Pure Power ability just makes this a really frightening Pokémon in general, due to being able to sweep teams on his own, once he gets a free switch in. The only thing that is a letdown to this is his speed and hence why many pokes can check or counter this, especially Misdreavus and Murkrow. They both cripple Meditite hard, and Murkrow OHKO's with a Brave Bird. Swirlix has a surprise factor, yes, but it can easily be dealt with anyways. As an example to this, Koffing and Honedge, and possibly others, can both check both of Swirlix's variants, although the latter fears Flamethrower. But if you get a safe switch in, Koffing can Clear Smog away Swirlix's stats and also do damage in the same time, while only taking a maximum of 85% from +6 Swirlix's Return. Koffing can still be OHKOed by +6 Sp. Atk Swirlix Flamethrower, but if you let that happen, you deserve to lose. After an Unburden boost with a neutral nature, Swirlix outspeeds anything in the meta bar scarfed 20's such as Abra or Voltorb, but these can't really do anything to swirlix anyways, and it speed ties with scarfed 19's such as Murkrow and Misdreavus, making it extremely fast and hard to revenge kill without Priority moves, mainly Bullet Punch. And even though you can counter BDrum Swirlix, no one wants to run a Koffing just in case you might bump into one. Further down you can see how hard Swirlix can hit, and how they hit back at him. Also LO Murkrow can counter Swirlix before he gets to boost, due to a Brave Bird from LO Murkrow has a 93.8% chance to OHKO. (236 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs. 24 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 21-27 (91.3 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO) +6 212+ Atk Swirlix Return vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Koffing Clear Smog vs. 24 HP / 0 SpD Swirlix: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO +6 212+ Atk Swirlix Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 204+ SpA Swirlix Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 220 SpD Eviolite Honedge: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 196+ Atk Honedge Iron Head vs. 24 HP / 68 Def Swirlix: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO This shows how Swirlix can be dealt with by both Koffing and Honedge, even after the boost, as long as they have not been damaged, yet you should not run those in your team(s) just for the sake of countering a Swirlix. If you are going to unban Berry Juice, I will have to say that this will make Swirlix even more broken due to the fact that Berry Juice would heal about all its HP after activation. ~ Fletchling
As a gimmick option would magic room be relatively viable? Yes its outclassed by knock off but I did say gimmick No eviolites, sashes or choice items for 4 turns is pretty great Of course the distribution sucks...
To be honest, Magic Room isn't learned by many Pokémon that stand in the LC metagame. Abra is a Pokémon that learns it but it's super fragile defensively and it really needs its Focus Sash. Misdreavus and Natu are two other users but they both need they both are weaker after losing their items. So imo, Knock Off is way better! But like you said, it's gimmick but be careful that it won't be always effective.
Magic Room is interesting. I've seen it work, but it more often than not it does nothing significant. I'm a little upset with the direction the current meta has taken. Its like every team has some combination of Swirlix, Misdreavus, Murkrow, and Mienfoo. People have gotten so un-creative that if you build to stop those four, the majority of your matches will be pushover battles. Almost everyone is using teams focused around these four and its making the tier stale. It's sad to see this because they are in no way the only things worth using right now. Just over an hour ago I had a match that was both the most difficult I've had in a long time, and the most fun, and the person I was battling against used not only none of these four, but used a defensive team to incredible success. Yes defensive teams can work in LC. I'm going to put out a question for all of you. Why do you insist on making teams around the same four Pokemon when there is so much more potential out there? Drilbur, Croagunk, Stunky, Dratini, Archen, Frillish, Skrelp, Vulpix, Koffing, Goomy, Axew, Meowth, Venipede, Froakie, Clamperl, Shellder, Gastly, Anorith, Darumaka, Amaura, Spritzee, Tyrunt, Carvanha, Shelder, Sewaddle, Cubone, Bronzor, Machop, Bellsprout, Bulbasaur. All of these Pokemon have something they're great at. Meowth has possibly the strongest Fake Out, technician boosted covet, and knock off. Did you know that Swirlix cannot beat Dratini 1v1 without hax? Is Stunky now bad just because he doesn't have knock off? There is so much potential in so many mons in LC that is just left alone because a handful have more attacking power. As a community we need to be more creative. The way LC is right now, its boring for most people. Every team looks the same and that is discouraging new players. However, there is no reason not to change up the way we team build. Just because one person uses one thing doesn't mean you have to use it. There is so much unrecognized potential in LC, and I hope that we as a community will be able to find and exploit that potential.
Hum, quick post for now because salty at the Swagger loss, is it intended that LC did not ban Swagger like other tiers?
That being said don't be surprised if Swagger is the next suspect after the metagame calms down. Swagger is much more effective in LC than OU imo.
I agree with you fitzy. We got four Pokémon in the metagame with Prankster and Swagger (Riolu, Cottonee, Murkrow, Purrloin). Two of these Pokémon can also learn Foul Play -Purrloin and Murkrow- making them unstoppable with a 95 STAB move and also access to Thunder Wave and Substitute. I tried these two Pokémon with Swagger sets early XY (thanks fitzy for the core) and I won most of the matches thanks to Swagger. So yeah, I agree with a Swagger suspect until the metagame gets more stable and after the current suspects end.
I agree with a Swagger suspect/immediate ban; Prankster SwagPlay in particular is bullshit mechanic no matter what tier it is in. Worst thing is that Murkrow is one of the fastest 'mons in the tier, allowing for a priority Swagger then an (in many cases) immediate Foul Play on the next turn that will likely get the kill. The fact that the two primary abusers can live some neutral +2 attacks with Eviolite and decent bulk doesn't help either.
Some users think about a Knock Off and/or a Mienfoo test ban because that'll make some stuff shine, and to be honest it doesn't look like a bad idea in my opinion. What do you guys think?
Personally, I don't see any reason why Knock Off should be banned. A Mienfoo test ban could be interesting in a Berry Juice environment, but aren't Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Meditite bigger threats than Mienfoo right now? If anything needs to be test banned now, I think it should be Swagger.
Mienfoo? Mienfoo isnt that broken without Knock Off. (Even with it, there are another pokes that deserve the suspect way before it.) When you 1st told us about the possible suspect on Knock Off I was like... 'God yes!' but then realized that it would have a massive 'counterpart'. Lack of Knockers means that Eviolites can only go away with Trick, so I ask: Wouldnt this make LC a pure stall tier?? I think Knock Off deserves a suspect test, despite the 'Stall Way' the tier would take.
I don't think Knock Off deserves a suspect myself. It's a great move, but I don't think it's broken. The only thing which could be banned ATM is Swagger: I literally can't think of a reason to keep it.
Last gen Knock Off was near completely non-existent, there was no trouble with Stall. Anyway, Swagger suspect/testban may well be on the cards. We'll see.
In all honesty, there isn't much to talk about in a Swagger discussion. Swagger play's the same deal here as it is elsewhere, we just don't have something as hard to kill as Klefki to abuse it. Berry Juice was a complete shift in the tier and look at how much discussion was spawned off that. I mean some discussion could happen, but I seriously doubt it. Not many people run Swagger in LC anyways so there's that too. Knock-Off could possibly draw attention from Smogon players and would definitely shift things around some. I don't really have much of an idea as to how the tier would shift during a Knock-Off ban, so I'm all for a test ban there. While Knock-Off isn't broken, a ban could liven up the tier and bring back old threats that were made obsolete by Knock Off such as Stunky. I think knock off should hold priority over swagger.
cottonee and murkrow are hard to kill~ especially if they opt for roost... Swagger>knock off imo On the topic of knock off, I really don't see any reason to ban it...? even if its only a test...to me it'd be like banning voltturn. Just because it can be hard to play around doesn't mean its that bad a thing :v Assuming it DID get banned sturdyjuicers would fuck everything up (even if the glitch still isn't fixed) and thus would lead to another suspect. Yay for chain reactions.
Yeah I'm agreeing with rioku. What is going to be the point of a swagger suspect? Would anyone really be opposed to just adding it to the banlist? I'll talk to weavile. As with knock off I don't really want it to go. I mean there is no reason to not have at least 1-2 users per team and it is an amazing move but I don't see how it puts anything over the top. Maybe the metagame will be more diverse afterwards but I really don't see it. Knock off is also a major reason why SturdyJuice is kept in check being able to remove the juice.
To be honest, knock off is doing absolutely nothing against Berry Juice right now as there is a glitch that causes Berry Juice to activate on the Knock Off. So the tier we are playing right now is essentially one where Berry Juice cannot be removed except by the means of Trick, Covet, and Switcheroo. I do agree that there is no real reason to ban knock off, but a test might show something productive, so by all means go ahead. Initially I was like what have you done when Berry Juice was released, but it freed up so many opportunities to use things that I would have never expected. Banning Knock Off would breathe new life into old Missy beaters like Stunky and would hurt Mienfoo, possibly balancing out the usage stats of LC to be more like those of the main tiers. I think the goal right now is to make LC the most balanced tier we can that isn't run by just a few threats, so if a Knock Off test ban could provide the opportunity to do that, I support it.
I am an advocate of testing a Knock Off ban, I like to experiment, not theorymon (I was guilty of that with Berry Juice, I was wrong!). But I will say that there is a lot of shit that Knock Off gives a significant boost to, like Anorith, Timburr (although it's good anyway), Pawniard, Vullaby, Defensive Turtle etc. So saying it'll make Stunky mediocre again and maybe open up the tier more is nowhere close to guaranteed.
Double post hype: Based on the general feeling that it's a good idea from most of the players, and the fact that the swagger discussion is pretty similar in all tiers, and that we both want it out. Fitzy and I have decided to ban Swagger.
This would seem like a nice discussion subject, I wanted to make a thread but even this General Discussion thread has people who post in it. So: Berry Juice or Eviolite? What's the right choice? In my opinion both of them are effective but it depends on the Pokémon, you should take these things into account if you want to to chose between them: -If you're using a Pokemon with Sturdy (it should have 21 HP or less) and Recycle then you better give it a Berry Juice. -If the Pokémon already has a recovery move to rely on then Eviolite is the better choice. -If you're using moves like Acrobatics or Unburden then you better give it Berry Juice since it's a one use item unlike Eviolite, it also gives the Pokémon recovery so it can live longer. -Sometimes Eviolite helps the Pokémon live some attacks that can OHKO it which makes it the better choice on Pokémon that have below average defensive stats. I conclude from all that, that Berry Juice plays some important rules in the metagame and makes some Pokémon more effective than if they're holding an Eviolite. But Eviolite is still a better choice, especially if the Pokémon holding it has access to a recovery move, since it multiplies the Defense and Special Defense of all the Pokémon in LC by 1.5% making them bulkier. But hey, that's my opinion. What do you guys think?
Far too broad of a question imo. It's really simple for a lot of pokemon. You will never find an Eviolite Zigzagoon or Eviolite Magnemite but in the same way people are never going to use Berry Juice Slowpoke or Foongus because they have better reliable ways of healing so appreciate the bulk. Whats much more interesting is things that can run both and even then it mainly depends on how your play style is and the rest of your team. Things like Misdreavus and 4 attack Chinchou can run both perfectly fine with their being no right answer. Edit: You totally edited the question since I saw the post to include a bit of what I was saying, yay
Way to put a stopper on that discussion Fitzy. But yeah he's right, it is completely team/Pokémon dependent. It's like saying "Specs are better than Life Orb", they're just different. That said I think that Eviolite still plays a larger role in the metagame than Berry Juice does, Berry Juice adds a degree of saliency to a lot of Pokémon but I think Eviolite is still the core of the item world. Maybe that will change with time even.
The reason why I asked the question is that because it's really wide so that people can discuss it, everyone say when he finds Berry Juice a better option than Eviolite and vice versa