So, Sky Sentinel and I tried to balance Zelda and make it overall a more fun theme to play, even if it is fun already, without trying to change too much. Hopefully it appeals to everyone and that it balances out as we had intended. We put more focus on smaller and medium games than large ones being that with school and basically in real life things, Mafia isn't played as much and therefore we barely get over 20 players. As our intention of changing this up and putting it through Mafia Review, we expect for it to be tested/accepted by a majority of the QC for it..well, for the obvious to happen. Code Spoiler https://raw.github.com/SkySentinel/Themes/master/Zelda[/HIDE] New Roles Spoiler "role": "linebeck", "translation": "Linebeck", "side": "village", "help": "You're Captain Linebeck of the S.S. Linebeck, and a good friend to Link! Being a loudmouth by nature, you can /expose someone during the day. This will reveal you, so use it sparingly.", "role": "miller2", "translation": "Groose", "side": "village", "help": "You are Groose, a tough guy with a soft spot for girls-- especially Zelda. You've decided to make nice with Link to get closer to the princess, but you're still a bit suspicious, so Zelda will see you as an enemy.", "role": "mafiaboss25", "translation": "Ganondorf", "side": "mafia2", "help": "You are the Great King of Evil! You can use /Kill [name] to kill someone and can't be killed yourself by anyone except Link! You can be haxed and distracted, so be careful!", "role": "mafiaboss2", "translation": "Ganon", "side": "mafia2", "help": "You are the Great King of Evil in demon form! You can use /Kill [name] to kill someone and can't be killed yourself by anyone except Link! Since you are empowered by the Triforce of Power, you cannot be distracted until you calm down after Link's death.", "role": "godfather2", "translation": "Demise", "side": "godfathers", "help": "You are Demise, the source of all monsters. You're extremely skilled in combat and can /kill one person at night. Due to your large stature you can /protect someone every other night. You also poison anyone that kills you.", "role": "godfather1", "translation": "Ghirahim", "side": "godfathers", "help": "You are Ghirihim! Nimble and mysterious, you can /stalk one person during the night to see who they visit! You can also /kill one person during the night. This is not shared with your team.", "role": "phantom", "translation": "Phantom", "side": { "random": { "godfathers": 0.2, "mafia1": 0.2, "mafia2": 0.2, "werewolf": 0.2 } }, "help": "You are a phantom, a creature who protects various temples! Almost impervious to anything Link throws at you, you will not die if you are attacked by him. He will die instead! Your vote counts as 0 and you have a voteshield of -1.", "info": "Bombs daykills. Vote of zero, voteshield of -1. Sided with a random bad team.", "role": "millager", "translation": "Citizen", "side": "village", "help": "You are a normal citizen of Hyrule. Vote to remove people in the day!", "info": "Unlucky citizen who becomes the Skull Kid when the original Skull Kid dies! Sided with the People of Hyrule.", "actions": {} },[/HIDE] Copied code for the new roles because it's easier, if need be just check the code. Dorf's help text is messed up, but it isn't allowing an edit for some reason right now, hooray for modern inventions, but it will be edited when github starts working again. Anyway, have at it. Edits Zelda Evasion Removed Linebeck Removed Poison bomb, for some reason that was still on there, removed
So you're saying I should reject, right? I like some of these roles but am against some of them. Remove Lineback and remove evade chance for Zelda.
So, reading this theme, my impression is that you thought current Zelda's Village is UP. Ganondorf is largely nerfed while Koume and Skull Kid are only slightly buffed, and to top it all, there's a mafia-sided poison-bomb. Bombs, regardless of their sides, will always nerf the side with more killers (in this case, all but Village and the side with the bomb itself). When that bomb is sided with mafia, the nerf is even greater because 90% of the time that bomb will trigger against another Mafia, so 2 baddies are out in a single action. For the godfathers team, they have extra powers, but Protect will help them against other mafia, not against village, while Stalk, in a theme where only 4 roles sided with village have night actions, will again help them more against Mafia than against Village. And IMO, Day-Bomb is not a good fit for this theme. Not only you are throwing the responsibility of taking down Link to Link's error instead of Mafia's actions, you are also making the core role of this theme have to face lots of risky decisions everytime it kills, which is already a function better executed by Koume (Koume forces Link to make one big decision instead of several small ones with the same risk).
The poison bomb was a mistake; Thought that had been taken out. The Godfather Duo has a protect to fend off Mafia to threaten the village, which I would think one more mafia member would threaten village. I dunno, could be wrong. And could change the stalk to an inspect, if you would like. That does seem to be better.
Splendid. I'm glad to see an effort to rebalance this is being made. I'll give the new setup a look shortly.
It's not that you can't have Stalk or Protect, but as I said, those changes look more like they were devised favor Village over Mafia as if they needed that more. The main buffs mafia got are mostly meant to fend off other mafia than to fight against their immediate main threat (village). From my point of view, the side that needed better buffs was not Village, but even so Village is still as much as a threat as they were before, while mafia only "get a little more time". Also, I greatly dislike the Ganondorf nerf. I see no reason for a role to get nerfed right when they are rewarded with the defeat of their main opponent (and flavor-wise, the explanation as to why the role changes was quite weak).
Iirc the concept of Dark Link was a thing whose daykill message was the same as Link's. Whatever happened to that? Seems like a good way to deter from Link claiming.
Idk Zelda is already a nearly perfect theme. I'm also against change in general. There is a slight problem with Zelda though. It's one big "find the impa" game. If Impa dies n1 or n2, baddies actually stand a chance. If not well then the PRs get connected and the baddies get voted out/daykilled without much chance of a fair fight.
I'm actually unfamiliar with this, but that sounds like a really cool idea and one that might balance the game at that. Thing is that if you're going to do this, you should make the identity of Link not revealed in his daykill so that this check can continue past Day 1. At any rate though, I'm totally in favor of Dark Link getting added to Zelda. EDIT: Oh, and also have Dark Link inspect as Link.
If Dark Link is to be added, I'd rather it was more like in an Arceus/Zoroark format, where both have the same message, but one cannot kill the other. Prevent Link's claim is already Koume's job, so Dark Link could use a different mission (AKA confusing players).
I don't like what you did to ganon(dorf), seeing he's the main villain of most Zelda games. He should keep his hax and distract ignoring, but how about Vaati? Instead of a surefire evade, why not give him (Vaati) 50% chance to evade distract? It makes things a little more fair for Tingle.
Just a brief note I saw while skimming: Bombing Daykills = Both die Revenging Daykills = only the daykiller dies (Which is how Phantom is coded)
Windblown, that is correct regarding Dark Link. I do like the concept of it, as Rice pointed out to confuse the players but they can't kill one another, and that can be added. Elite's Aaron, the theme is unbalanced, and yes it is pretty much one huge 'find the impa' rat race. With the concept of Dark Link, that will actually cause less of that since village risks , unless my thought process at 2am is wrong. So that is looking to be a near guaranteed add. Matt Ayala, I see no point in editing the ignoring of distraction regarding Vaati. The minions can already be PLd, so there is no point in being able to stall another Vaati to hell. And with Ganon, at this point we thought Ganon was pretty OP already with a partner that distracts with a good amount of people, again 2am, and can evade every action and passive ability to where really only a vote, or a daykill, eliminates them. Although, if it is viewed that the convert is a bad idea, we'll toss it. Fuzzy, that will be fixed.
Alright, is there anything that we absolutely must do? Like, I'd also assume this was more of a community effort ("classic" theme)... This isn't really a huge change, but I do think we've at least made it a little easier for other teams to win. If you guys have any suggestions that aren't about Ganondorf not being changed, please feel free to add them so we can take them into consideration.
Let me just say to the people who will complain that we 'ruined' Zelda with these changes (if this gets through): IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THE THEME SAY IT HERE, COMPLAINING ON SERVER IN MAIN MAFIA CHAT MEANS NOTHING might look through it again later
I'll tell you right now that there's no way we're not changing this theme in some way, whether it be this way or not
So you are not going to consider not nerfing Ganondorf? Because that Ganondorf nerf is really pointless and will only hurt the theme.
We have to change him in some way, and that was the best thing we could come up with at that point in time, I guess...
What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this theme update? Are you trying to balance it because Village was too strong or because Village was too weak? It's hard to judge this theme if you don't make this point clear. And why do you "have to change him in some way"? Is there something wrong with the role, or are you changing just because you want to say you changed stuff? It makes me think you decided to change it on a whim, the same way you said "Lineback was added because he had to be there". In other words, there was no actual purpose for that.
This theme is really a mess as far as balance goes, I mean it's either Ganondorf or Village that wins. I think we just tried to take it too quickly. Um, we have to change Ganondorf or make something else able to get to him (maybe just remove hax evade on him completely) and we had to make Malladus stronger, but I also wanted to implement the new game, so I changed him to a two person team from the new game. The second skull kid was an idea from roild I believe, and I liked it a lot. I like the Dark Link idea a lot, also, but I don't know how it'll fit here so I haven't added it yet. Link needed another little obstacle for him to get over so we added the phantom, which was an obvious choice for a bomb in my opinion. I made it revenge on purpose, because Link can't really kill it at all with the Master Sword, but it can kill Link. Random side for it was just a thing because I didn't have a set teammate for him. Unless we bring malladus back, he'll probably stay that way. As far as Linebeck goes, he's one of my favorite characters and probably one of many fans of the series so "he had to be there" I guess, but i don't think the role fit. Groose was added as a secondary miller because there was already a second Midna in the spawn so I just replaced it with a new role. The poison bomb part about Demise is kinda a flavor thing since he "cursed link's reincarnations for eternity" and what-not and fuzzy never coded curse-attacker (although i don't see how that would work out) so I decided to do that. The stalk was just there so they weren't TOO game-changingly different from malladus, but just enough so that they could maybe see someone who visited link and maybe nail Nayru. I also think i lowered Navi's hax slightly... for probably obvious reasons.
It just doesn't make sense that you say only Ganondorf or Village wins, but then you nerf Ganondorf and buff Koume, and forget completely about doing anything regarding Wind Mage. Splitting Malladus into a 2-man team is not a problem IMO. Malladus has always been unable to beat Gerudo mafia by itself (it would need other players help to lynch him), and 2nd Skull Kid is kind of meh but not a problem either, although 1 mole is already too much for a theme with an evil PL, making Zelda is even more useless as a consequence. Phantom, on the other side, is a huge problem. Throwing bombs around is not the way to balance a theme. Instead of making the bad guys have to work to beat their main enemy, you are throwing that responsability to a possible mistake/bad decision from Link. Allowing baddies to brag when they successfully beat a powerful PR is one of the best part of Mafia, but it's much better when you actually can say it was your merit for playing well instead of the other person's failure. Also, saying Lineback is one of the favorites characters is... I don't even know what to say. I could point several other characters that are way more relevant and well liked than Lineback. Probably even the Windmill man is more memorable than him.
We're not leaving it up to the bomb, which will also affect Dark Link when we add him. He's just another little bump in the road for Link, so to speak.
Twinrova is something that must happen, why don't you make it happen? (when one of the sister dies "with their last grasp fused and formed twinrova") there could be a Shadow Link (not Dark, Shadow. 4 Swords Adventure's) sided with the wind mage who could be the one to fakeclaim link and also buff this side.
We've been working on Shadow/Dark(whichever name is chosen) for a good while, hopefully it will be finished soon. Because of my irl problems, Sky and I haven't been able to work on Zelda as much because it is a 'team effort' so to speak and so when I became in a bad position, it just stopped for the most part. The recent suggestions to changes will try to be finished as quickly as possible, given that it is going to be relatively slow for a few weeks.
REALLY glad to see someone trying to balance this, as it would be my favorite theme with just a bit of work. I haven't looked at the changes yet (although I will soon). I think this should be tested on the server and we should see if it's more "fun" than the original. I may post later after looking at all the new roles and balances and stuff.
Glad to see that there is some excitement with the upcoming changes that will hopefully be adopted to Zelda. In light of TCC near coming to a close, more progress will be able to be made than what has been made already within the past few weeks, so be ready for some new changes than ones that are already listed.
added dark link as a teammate for skull kid, might be temporary for that team but he'd be a really weak solo role