[BW2] The NU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Big Bad Booty Daddy, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    stunfisk may be a bit too high, but c rank is low

    stunfisk is one of the best counters to klinklang, and not too many pokes in the tier can say they consistently wall klinklang. it is also an excellent check to virtually every electric-type in the tier, bar eelektross (only specs may struggle with stunfisk, considering stunfisk really cant do too much to eelektross). stuff like rotom-s are highly reliant on volt switch for gaining momentum and doing damage, but stunfisk easily stops momentum without taking damage. also thefact it resists air slash helps its case too, and it takes hp grass fairly well.

    stunfisk is a highly reliable sr setter overall, and it can get sr up when needed and still take some hits and what not. may not have offensive capabilities seismitoad and piloswine may have, it is still an excellent sr setter. stunfisk is prob b+ or b at the lowest

    speaking of seismitoad, why is it so low, probably worthy of a or a+ imo. like stunfisk is it an excellent sr setter, and also makes a decent check for klinklang. it is still an effy check for electric-types as hp grass is rather common and it takes significant damage. water absorb is a really nice ability too with immunity to water being a fairly common offensive type in the tier (even tho a lot of them run a grass-move too)

    along with that it has excellent offensive capabilities with swift swim. it may not be ludicolo but it is capable of doin a healthy amount of damage to most of the tier
     
  2. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Eh, I think Stunfisk is fine as a A-. He was a unique typing that allows him to take on pretty much every electric type not called rotom frost, and great bulk. His SpA isn't too shabby either, and you can catch people off guard with a specs set. He is a premere counter to pokes like Klingklang and Rotom S, and a SpD 252/252 stun takes a hydro pump from Samurott. Yeah. He's a B+ on a bad day imo.

    Ludicolo could go to A+, he has 2 great sets in his specially defensive set and rain dance sweeper set; He CAN run a physical set, but lolwut. Abomasnow

    Seismitoad, I'd put him on par w/ Stunfisk, maybe an A, perhaps A+ on a good day. He does have the good water ground typing and SR is always great, but I feel like he loses out since hp grass massacres him, and every electric type carries it =\ (although that is his only flaw)
     
  3. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Fisk to B+ imo, it can run a good Physically Defensive set, walls most Electric, Flying + Steel Types, has access to SR and a lot of coverage options such as Scald/Foul Play/Sludge Bomb. Can also pull off a good Lure Specs set, hits quite Hard and has great coverage. However I believe it's held back from an A spot because it is weak to Grass, Ice, Water and Ground, very common move types in NU and it's Defensive set really fails to hit hard, it is a good mon though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I think people underrate Stunfisk's SDef sets, as well as the fact it can be a reliable SR setter or physical wall too. Stunfisk is pretty versatile and you gotta play pretty carefully around it because of the variety it has, so often it will smack something with a Scald or Discharge or Sludge Bomb or Foul Play and catch even the best players off guard. It can be easily tailored to fit what a team needs. I do think it deserves A-. Its flaws are actually pretty minimal for the reliable bulky threat that it is, imo, and it always tanks even super effective hits.

    oh and Cased... get Primeape out of S already :I
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  5. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I love primeape, I'm the guy who overestimates every poke (look at clops), but he's just not S rank :l
    He's an A poke imo, decent speed, nice attack, alright abilities, decent movepool, but he's nothing special =\ He runs an effective scarf set with access to uturn and is much faster than sawk, in fact he is fast enough to outspeed a +2 gory if scarfed which is great! But he just isn't S or A+ imo
     
  6. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    That is the definition of an S Rank Pokemon.

    Primeape has two to three sets. A choice scarfed set, a choice banded set, and a situational fist plate / expert belt set. In theory, you could label it as versatile, but the scarf set is the most common by an overwhelming margin (not to say it is the best set.) As the end of the definition states, "superlative in performing one task," a Pokemon that has one main set must fill that role outstandingly to be deemed an S-Ranked Pokemon. Choice Scarf Primeapd is the best scarf user, revenge killer, and u-turn (ab)user in the tier. It is amazingly easy to slap Primeape onto many teams as a scarfer because it has the pretty good mono-fighting typing, speed that lets it outrun other scarfers or +1 sweepers, and good synergy with Hazards + Ghost which leads to weakened Pokemon to be revenged and u-turning to ghost on opposing spinners. On the note of u-turn, Primeape uses it amazingly. 'Spamming' u-turn can wrack up damage, give momentum, and do decent damage to Psychic switch-ins (specifically offensive Gardevoir and offensive mesprit.) Also, it makes spinblocking that much easier (click U-turn on spinner, go to ghost type.) Furthermore, Primeape is an overall amazing Scarfer that can function on many teams, especially in te current metagame. It is fair to say, in my opinion, that Primeape is 'superlative at fillin this role'.

    If this isn't enough of an argument to persuade you that Primeape should go S tier, then I have a bit more. The choice banded set. Choice Banded Primeape is less common that Scarf Primeape and Banded Sawk (by significant margins), but it can use CB u-turn to break through some psychics (especially with hazards) and it outspeeds a majority of the unboosted metagame. Also, it may be less powerful than Sawk, but it has the two aforementioned traits (U-turn and Speed) that Sawk lacks and the power difference is important, but won't be significant bar hitting a few threats.

    With all of this taken into consideration, Primeape is a significant force in the metagame, it is arguably versatile with sets, and it has the amazing scarf set.
    Therefore, I believe Primeape should go S. Feel free to disagree, as you already have. I am willing to move it for a
    Majority against it in S.
     
  7. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I won't mention the rest of your post because I'm not going to sit here and insult your opinion, but this bit is wrong, BandSawk threatens almost the entire NU tier, and the Pokemon it doesn't threaten out as a revenger cannot switch in in almost every scenario (Off of the top of my head Missy/Mushy/Clops/Noir/Tangela are the only Pokemon that can always switch in on any move when rocks aren't up, and Tangela can't depending on damage rolls when rocks are up.

    Base 105 Attack (Primeape) is very average for a Fighting type (it's actually below average for Fully-Evolved Fighting Pokemon source: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Fighting_(type)#Fully_evolved



    U-turn + Speed obviously are advantages but Sawk is more of a wall-breaker then a scout.




    Primeape just isn't S-worthy.
     
  8. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    let me just say first that we went from a forum challenge encouraging people to use lesser used pokes to rating pokemon based on usefulness and rating most of the lesser used pokemon at C and below, lol, but anyways...

    Also with these 3 sets, primeape has a TON of offensive moves including punishment, seed bomb, earthquake and more. (Yes i have seen all of these moves on primeape before for specific uses) Along with these offensive moves Primeape is capable of running support moves to cripple opponents like encore and endeavor. Primeape should stay at an s rank imo.
     
  9. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Primeape can't really get past a variety of things though, and while momentum is nice its not as though that isn't something you can't play around either. Lets put it this way, S to me means something you ALWAYS have to build for. The fact of the matter is that not only do you not have to do this, by simply building for sawk primeape is taken care of. What's worse, primeape is OHKOed by a lot of +2 sucker punches that sawk is not (eg: Cacturne, Absol). Primeape is good. Additionally, the dusc/k father and son business has really put a dampener on all fighting types effectiveness, esp. scarf sets. All in all primeape feels more like a supplement to a team rather than a major player, simply helping with momentum when necessary, but rarely capable of doing anything else.

    I'd also disagree with 'best revenge killer' as having a multitude of safe switches by in large means they won't be able to keep things in in order to revenge kill.
     
  10. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    :]

    All discussed and will change.

    I'm fine with putting this Low A, great anti-meta Pokemon and can be extremely deadly with minimal support. I think your reasoning enough is fine enough to put it Low A.

    I wouldn't go that far, resistances to Grass/Ice/Flying/Psychic is great in this tier, (esp. Psychic), and with some support, Metang can be a solid part of any team. I wouldn't say Meteor Mash is set-up fodder, also when Psych Up is fairly common on defensive Metang then it's hard to make set-up fodder. I'll make it a possible change.

    I wouldn't go that far to say D, Steel/Rock is weak to Fight/Ground but it has nice resistances (previously mentioned around Metang) definitely a possibility though. Garbage Steels are garbage.

    MR LUMBER:

    Rhydon is certainly a great Pokemon, although I feel like the 4x weakness to Water/Grass-type Pokemon is the huge problem. It's a great Tank due to the EdgeQuake coverage and great Attack, although it needs some support to really shine, since Water/Grass-type Pokemon aren't a rare sight in NU. Like I said for most of the stuff I consider, I'll consider it.

    This is interesting, I've used Curse Muk recently and it's pretty damn good with support. From my past experience, it's tough to fit it on a team though. We could have different ideas about that, but that's just me. The support Muk needs is more than a little, but it's certainly an underrated Pokemon. Will consider.

    Discussed.

    Klinklang's ability to sweep is stopped by certain Pokemon, but it needs little support to set-up a late game sweep. Support sets are obviously mediocre and that's obviously not why it's A+. Its coverage isn't fantastic but all of its Checks/Counters are usually beaten the same way, I'll do it as a possible change. Although I'm personally highly against it.

    Just because it beats a certain Pokemon, doesn't mean it should be B. Esp. because it can't switch-in to LO HP Grass from Samurott, I mean nothing can truly counter Samurott bar Mantine to an extent. Frillish is fine where it is imo, but again I'll do it as a possible change, ask for opinions etc.

    All of its sets that it runs are top class, its defensive set is one of the best around and one of the only Psychic-type Pokemon to get Stealth Rocks. Support moves like Thunder Wave make it scary to switch a threat into. Its Choiced sets aren't great (mainly because of the trappers) but still very good nonetheless. Calm Mind is fantastic too, access to well above average bulk is important since it can set-up and tank more hits than Gardevoir.
    Highly against this, but will ask for opinions.

    I understand what you're trying to say to an extent, but you don't mention the versatility of Lapras. And it's impossible for me to make a judgement on Lapras if I don't know what sets it runs to be Low B. Try to re-do this and post again.

    Beheyeem looks fantastic on paper, it's a great Trick Room sweeper but that's a niche thing, and the Choice Specs set isn't really bulky enough to take hits and fire them back, it kinda has to hope that it won't be threatened by the opponent's Pokemon, and a lot of teams carry weapons that can deal with Beheyeem, Psychic-types in general. I'll add it to possible.

    ALSO ADDING STUNFISK TO B+ FROM THE QUOTES FROM MEEPS AND AFRO CASH



    Possible Changes:
    Bastiodon C -> D
    Metang B -> B-/C+
    Beheyeem -> B+/A-
    Rhydon A- -> A+
    Muk C -> B+
    Lapras D -> B-
    Frillish C -> B
    Mesprit A+ -> A-
    Klinklang A+ -> B+

    Definite Changes:
    Bouffalant B+ -> A-
    Primeape S -> A+
    Stunfisk A- -> B+

    DISCUSS THE RANKINGS OF METANG, BASTIODON, BEHEYEEM, RHYDON, MUK, LAPRAS, FRILLISH, MESPRIT, AND KLINKLANG AND YOUR OPINIONS ON THEM. THANK YOU.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2013
  11. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    i'll comment on klinklang because i use it a lot

    i might have said this about klinklang, but im too lazy to check, but you literally have to run a defensive check for klinklang to prevent your team being completely destroyed by klinklang after it sets up. sure it has many checks (seismitoad, camerupt / stunfisk / quagsire etc etc) but it's just the fact it's really tough to beat klinklang once ot sets up. not to mention it can find many opportunities to setup, just going through the usage stats setup opportunities and how it deals with threats:

    sawk - needs to rely on cc and eq to prevent klinklang from setting up, if stone edge / ice punch is used klinklang gets a free switch-in and opportunity to setup (assuming choice set)

    houndoom - fire blast rip klinklang

    musharna - both setup on each other in theory, klinklang doesnt worry too much about musharna unless it has hp ground, otherwise klinklang can get +2 and proceed to sweep a team

    eelektross - flamethrower, electric-attacks, superpower, bunch of stuff threaten klinklang from eelektross giving it trouble

    gardevoir - psychic can do decent damage from choice set, but klinklang will setup, focus blast ko's, hp ground has slight chance to ko, non-choice can focus blast right off the bat and usually outspeed and ko

    skuntank - can only taunt, usually gets outsped and klinklang gets a shift gear or a sub, unless running fire blast which is rather rare but in that case skuntank would prevent klinklang from setting up

    misdreavus - defensive can only taunt, and not all defensive missy even run taunt. np sets, hp fighting 3hko 13% chance to 2hko, if not running taunt klinklang can shift gear and do hefty damage

    mesprit - may do hefty damage with thunderbolt (specs) or outspeed (if running high speed) and twave, other than that klinklang doesnt have much trouble

    primeape - needs to rely on cc or u-turn to prevent klinklang from setting up similar to sawk

    claydol - klinklang leading vs claydol has 31% chance to be 2hko'd by eq, if claydol has earth power guarenteed 2hko, klinklang can do hefty damage and proceed to 2hko with +1 gear grind, claydol will still usually win in other situations.

    haunter - needs hp ground or w/e to even do damage and still cant ko, klinklang can setup shift gear and then ko haunter

    alomomola - scald / waterfall cant break sub, klinklang has potential to setup to +5/6 vs alomomola then field day for klinklang

    rotom-s - can volt switch or trick or w/e, klinklang almost never actually gets an opportunity to setup unless choiced rotom-s uses air slash while klinklang is alive

    samurott - hydro pump rip

    ludicolo - wins in rain, still does hefty damage outside of rain

    tauros - eq wont ko, +1 gear grind does have sr and lo damage

    armaldo - needs eq to do anything other than that rip armaldo (and potentially rest of team)

    gurdurr - drain punch and mach punch keep klinklang in check

    roselia - not doing shit ez setup for klinklang

    charizard - fire blast rip

    seismitoad - earth power 2hkos, +1 return only does ~30% vs phys def toad

    piloswine - eq has low chance to ko, +1 gear grind will ko after rocks, otherwise 38% chance

    absol - superpower ko's but klinklang can sub then ko after sr and lo damage

    torkoal - good check overall klinklang loses

    gorebyss - can take +1 return (but not wild charge) and ko with surf after shell smash

    zangoose - ko's and outspeed with toxic boost, without it klinklang can get +1 and take it down

    exeggutor - most attacks from specs do a lot of damage psychic can 2hko sometimes. subseed will lose if running psyshock, may still lose even if using psychic depending on how it is played out

    drapion - eq does enough damage to usually 2hko if offensive, +1 gear grind does a lot to drapion, defensive drapion will have to rely on whirlwind to stop klinklang

    wartortle - has haze usually to eliminate boosts, scald will break sub sometimes, but will be worn down eventually

    miltank - unless offensive klinklang sets up all over it

    emboar - fire and fighting attack boom klinklang ded

    dusclops - night shade, seismic toss, will-o-wisp. as long as it's played correctly dusclops can win

    ferroseed - cant do anything to Klinklang (2hko subs with gyro ball), klinklang can setup easily

    arbok - intimidate prevents ohko at +1, needs eq to win

    marowak - usually has bonemerang

    altaria - can use roar on defensive sets, but will still take some damage, dd needs earthquake, specs needs to rely on fire blast

    swellow - klinklang resists all attacks, gets a free setup turn

    vileplume - needs hp fire to do anything to klinklang, otherwise setup on

    drifblim - klinklang resists acro, may shift gear when drifblim acros, may outspeed and avoid will-o depending on speed spreads of both pokes, kinda situational.

    electabuzz - volt switch and stuff

    lickilicky - klinklang sets up ez

    garbodor - needs drain punch to do anything, even then it cant do much and must setup hazards while klinklang sets up

    im bored now, but basically 13 pokes of top 43 will almost always be setup on by klinklang, and many others are setup on due to potentially being locked into a move from scarf

    klinklang shiuld stay a+, or may even move up to s
     
  12. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    I don't have a lot to say about Bastiodon, since I rarely use it. Albeit thats mostly because its shitty and completely outclassed, genuinely the only thing going for it is metal burst. :/ What's more Probopass completely outclasses it with Twave, usable Spec A, and Volt switch.

    I like metang, but it is crazy predictable. Biggest problem is giving too many things too much space, so I can respect the drop. Again don't use it much.

    Other things I don't really want to reiterate on, although I must amend my post as Offensive rhydon is indeed Ohkoed by Absol with +2 and LO.

    The other things I think I could elaborate on are Muk, Lapras, and Frillish.

    Muk
    Muk doesn't actually need that much support, as the curse set functions ably as a wall/pivot early and a dangerous sweeper late. It is indubitably the best switch in to all grass types within the tier, as well as both rotoms. It can be easy to pair with, working is a great complement to anything not wanting to take grass type moves, scald, or status in general. Its only real flaws are marginal defensive bulk before setting up, steel type immunity to its stab, and semi common weaknesses (although they are both rarely covered by what it wants to switch in on).[/HIDE]

    Lapras
    In regards to Lapras, it is capable of running defensive, physically offensive, AND specially offensive sets. Water type immunity is also huge in NU. Lapras functions like a more defensive Samurott, albeit trading less immediate threat for staying power. While all of these sets can technically be 'out classed' it can fill any practical niche, and requires scouting to be handled. Ice typing is a major double edged sword, for obvious reasons, but with decent support it functions with aplomb.[/HIDE]

    Frillish
    Frillish. With a positive nature in special defense and around 120 EVs, Frillish is only a 3hko to specially offensive samurott after rocks. Water ghost is GREAT defensive typing, checking a HUGE portion of the tier. While dusclops will obviously give it some competition for a team slot, access to recover makes up for the difference in defense. Other than that it essentially functions like you'd expect it to, being supremely bulky with a nice typing and movepool. Obviously enjoys things like heal bell support and spinning, since passive damage wracks up on eviolite users. All in all a great pivot and alternative to the common ghost and water typings of the tier.[/HIDE]

    @ Klinklang posts above.
    You don't really mention the bevy of counters Klink has, ranging from stunfisk to ampharos. In addition you only talk about the counters in a way that gives Klink the advantage IE, with someone switching into klink or with klink as a lead. EG: Roselia vs Klink, Roselia can potentially sleep powder on the switch OR get up all three layers as klink (1) switches in (2) subs (3) shift gears, and on turn four the roselia player can switch to an easy counter ala stunfisk or Quagsire (who is horrendously underrated in the tier btw). Simply saying 'If klink gets its +1, offensive teams be trippin!' isn't saying much considering that klink will have a REALLY hard time setting up vs offensive teams AND so many things outright beat klink on balanced teams. Sure its something you have to be prepared for, but that usually just constitutes having HP fire on your tangela or something.[/HIDE]
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think Lapras deserves to be higher than D. It can run defensive and offensive sets, has a Water immunity, STAB Ice Beam and THunderbolt for coverage. It can also make 101 HP Subs, and it gets Dragon Dance. Massively underrated. I think it deserves to be High C myself. It is weak to Stealth Rock, and Samurott gives it stiff competition, but it does have enough of a niche.
     
  14. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    MR LUMBER:

    I mean for the Curse set it needs to reliably get rid of all Steel-types, although there aren't a lot, you still have to be able to consistently get rid of Steel-types for the Curse set to function. Muk's weakness to Psychic/Ground-type Pokemon is probably my biggest annoyance, Psychic-types are huge in NU even if there are a large amount of trapping Pokemon. That requires more support, since every Psychic-type Pokemon will basically destroy every possible Muk set. Although that's not a huge reason why it should be where it is currently, but it just requires Muk to have a bit more support. I'm fine with putting it B, but I personally feel B+ is too much of a jump.


    Alright, that's solid reasoning. I'm a bit turned away by the lack of reliable recovery but that could be used for a lot of Pokemon. B- it is.


    Water/Ghost isn't as good as you think it is, Water doesn't do anything for the Ghost-type, just makes it weak to Electric/Grass-type moves. Frillish is outclassed by all Ghost-types since it doesn't have attacking power and isn't a check to Fighting-type Pokemon due to its awful Defense. It's a good Pokemon, but it's highly outclassed by the other Pokemon. Most of the Water-type Pokemon in the tier carry status if non-offensive, an Samurott/Carracosta/Ludicolo are the main offensive Water-type Pokemon and threaten Frillish.

    Actually vs. Offensive teams, Klinklang isn't OHKO'd by a lot of moves, i.e Tauros LO EQ not taking it out. And one +1 Gear Grind is able to OHKO a lot of offensive Pokemon. Also Meeps mentioned that 1/3 of Pokemon in the top 42 get set-up on by Klinklang. And the minimal amount of team support it takes to almost ensure a Klinklang sweep is scary, it consistently does well vs. many playstyles with minimal support, which constitutes the A+ ranking that meeps said.


    Definite Changes:
    Lapras -> B-
    Muk -> B

    Possible Changes:
    Frillish -> B
    Klinklang -> B+
     
  15. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    roselia rarely runs sleep powder, only toxic spikes sets can also spikes + sleep powder is illegal combo. allowing klinklang to attempt to setup on roselia when the team has a klinklang counter is a rather poor idea, but even without setting up klinklang can still do significant damage to roselia. and yeah klinklang finds many opportunities to setup on offensive teams with great natural bulk and steel-type which allows it to take some super effective non stab physical attacks

    case comment on my seismitoad thoughts pls???

    o ya btw looked through the rankings again and didnt see octillery. octillery is a really strong poke with specs water spout it can 2hko stuff like lickilicky and it has excellent coverage. i used it on one of my teams once (case and finch may remember) and the team was pretty nice. octillery still needs rapid spin support and stuff has it is slow and lacks bulk so it may be tough to fire off max power water spout. so octillery would prob be nicely suited in c or c-
     
  16. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Sorry buddy didn't see you mentioned it, Seismitoad is very versatile and has a great RD Set, although its main niche of RD is because it can beat Ludicolo under Rain Dance, it doesn't exactly have the coverage that Ludicolo has. Its defensive set is very good and has access to Stealth Rocks, but Ludicolo generally runs a bit of a better SpD set. I think A is well deserved, the Water/Ground typing is amazing though!

    I'd say this is about right, generally Trick Room sweepers are around the C ranking due to the support they need to do well. I remember your Octillery team, yes. And it needed almost a full team of support to use, C is probably fine for it!

    Definite Changes:
    Seismitoad B+ -> A
    Octillery -> C
     
  17. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    On this note, I didn't see Vileplume. I have no idea how good it is, but I noted it's not on here and I think it deserves a ranking.
     
  18. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    respond to my post too cased!

    @Klinklang deserves an A because it's Steel typing and solid Defenses allow it to set up on a lot of Choic Locked Pokemon and most Grass/Psychic types and other random mons, and it only requires 1 turn of set up to Sweep through teams since nothing outspeeds it at +2 and it resists Quick Attack/Sucker Punch, probs the most common Priority in the tier, takes meh damage from Aqua Jet, loses to Mach Punch but loses to Gurdurr anyway.

    @Frillish C+ becuase it's unique typing allows it to spinblock and check a lot of the tiers Water/Fire/Normal types, has access to Will o Wisp and recover, Water Absorb is a nice ability, however its not that bulky when it's not resisting stuff and doesn't really cut above a niche mon.
     
  19. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'd put Vileplume in low B myself, it's a good cleric and a good check to physically orientated Water types. Reliable recovery and ability to remove Toxic Spikes by switching in gives it a niche over Tangela.
     
  20. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    AFRO SMASH

    [​IMG]

    Klinklang is A+ because of those reasons basically, and the fact that it takes one turn to set up a sweep on a lot of the Pokemon in the tier (Like some A+ Mons) is a big deal. Especially because the minimal support you need. Klink stays A+?

    Alright, since more people want it/give alright explanations, moving it to C+.

    CANT BELIEVE I FORGOT VILEPLUME. Heavily defensive Vileplume is able to beat Fighting-type Pokemon in the tier, which people really seem to underestimate. And it can also run Special sets unlike Tangela. It also uses Hidden Power Fire to prevent Sawsbuck/Klinklang from setting up on it. Soaking up Toxic Spikes like Dr. Doom mentioned is also a nice boost for Vileplume. Being a Cleric is a big deal too. For now, I'll put it in B. Anybody who feels differently may post.

    Definite Changes:
    Frillish C -> C+
    Vileplume -> B
     
  21. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    I still vote klink is moved down to A-. It's just too easy to stop, despite its ability to set up on so many things. Nearly every ground type beats it, as well as most fire and water types. Three typings a that are incredibly common. Further more it has several genuine hard stops, which aren't even terribly difficult to fit on a team. Eg: Quagsire, Seismitoad, Gurdurr, etc.

    While you should probably have a check for it, it likely won't be able to do anything if you do.
     
  22. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Klingklang is tricky, he has plenty of counters, but since he has the elusive steel typing he can set up on many pokes. Things like roselia/alom/licky/missy become set up fodder. I'd say he's an A- or an A poke tbh. He has an incredible boosting move in shift gear, a unique stab move in gear grind, and wild charge to hit bulky waters. He lacks something to hit steel types, but there are VERY few of those in nu outside of himself and metang. He's weak to many common types such as ground, fire, and fighting, but most of those types outside of gurdurr, Water/fire ground types; such as camerupt and quagsire, and Bulky fire types (which there are very few of) such as Lampent, VERY underrated poke. I think he's an A- poke at worst, A at best.
     
  23. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Mesprit should stay in S imo, all of its sets are top class, and it fits well on a lot of teams. It can support its team with SR+T-Wave and serves as a really neat pivot with U-turn, and also being a Sawk check is really good. Its good mixed bulk (not Musharna/Dusclops esque bulk, mind you) allows it to take hits well and makes it a good CM user since it can endure hits and hit back hard, and in general is a really good bulky sweeper in the tier. It's incredibly versatile too, so it makes a pretty good glue Pokemon that can do a lot. Keep it in S imo.

    And I'm not sure about Klinklang, I personally think it should remain at High A because although it has common checks, many of its checks mainly see use because of Klinklang itself because if you don't carry those checks you're probably bound to lose. And with the exception of Gastrodon and Quagsire, a vast majority of answers to Klinklang have issues regarding being worn down over time, so Spikes+Toxic Spikes can wear them down to the point where they can't check Klinklang anymore. Klinklang on its own is also really destructive with its Speed and power, and if its checks are gone, you're finished basically. Keep it in A+ imo, might even be S material because it forces you to run at least two checks to it.

    The biggest problem I have with Beheeyem is it has to compete with Gardevoir, Musharna, and Mesprit for a teamslot since they offer much better general utility to a team as a Psychic-type; Beheeyem's bulk isn't too remarkable either. It's decent at what it does, but I feel it's got some competition from other Psychic-types (oh and I forgot about Eggy!), but it's probably fine in B+.

    I do wanna propose a couple of things though

    [​IMG] Absol to A. Absol is simply a boss. It hits pretty damn hard, and Sucker Punch+Superpower is excellent coverage, while Absol can use SD, go mixed, or trap. With the prominent Psychic-types dominating (Gardevoir, Mesprit, Musharna) along with Dusclops and Misdreavus around, Absol's Dark STAB is incredibly valuable. Sucker Punch and the power make Absol a great sweeper, revenge killer, and wallbreaker all in one, and it is one hell of a force to be reckoned with. Definitely A imo.

    [​IMG] Dusclops to A (or at least A-) Dusclops is broken imo. This thing is an incredible defensive Pokemon, as its bulk is so great that nothing can OHKO it in a common scenario. Being the ultimate check to Sawk and Primeape only sweetens the deal, and Dusclops can stall with CurseSplit or RestTalk and overall be a pain in the ass. It can also run EQ to murder Houndoom and put up a fight with Skuntank and Drapion, and the burns are great to wall. At least A- imo, if not higher.

    [​IMG] Ferroseed to A Probably one of the best spikers in the tier. Its typing is very useful defensively, giving it good resistances to set up Spikes, while it has Leech Seed to heal and other support moves like T-Wave. It has great synergy with Dusclops, Ferroseed+Dusclops is a deadly combination, hazards are really good right now. Ferroseed is one of the most useful mons imo and is A.

    [​IMG] Dusknoir to B It's okay. It's outclassed by Dusclops in most regards because of the bulk, but Dusknoir does come with decent offensive presence, and it's not terrible at what it does. Good but not great is what I think of it.

    [​IMG] Eelektross to B+ (or maybe A-) This thing is really good. Eelektross's slow Volt Switch is very useful, to allow in a Zangoose or Swellow to grab the status boost easily and proceed to wreck the opposition. It's also a strong offensive threat on its own with T-bolt and great coverage to lay some great damage. It's good, needs to be higher up.

    [​IMG] Armaldo to C It's bad. Sucks at Rapid Spinning and provides no defensive synergy. It's okay on rain, but not worth using otherwise.

    Just some thoughts
     

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  24. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Mesprit is definitely an A+/S poke. It can run a myriad of sets ranging from any choice item - defensive (on either side) /stealth rocker /Trick room support/ Weather support etc
    It has Stealth rocks and bulk. That is an instant +, it has great 105 offenses and defenses as well as decent 80 speed and hp. It gets access to Trick, Trick room, weather inducing moves, healing wish, Twave, and other support moves.
    It lacks reliable recovery, but it makes up for it in versatility and usability and charismagnatism :]
    If this is in the lead spot, you need to be careful, because you don't know what set it'll be. You may be leading with a piloswine/rhydon, thinking you can take any hit and get your rocks up since it lacks taunt, then get hit with a trick or toxic. You could have stunfisk out and take massive damage from an ice beam, you never know what this lil guy will do and that is why I think it should stay up there :]
     
  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Mesprit is the universal glue of NU; you can literally stick at least one of its sets on any team that synergize well with it(don't put CM sets on hyper offensive teams etc) and it will perform well. In that sense, Mesprit is a great S pokemon because it's superlative in being able to fit everywhere in one way or another and be much more than mildly useful.

    If Eelektross was faster or a lot more bulky it would be an easy A in my eyes, but that speed and mediocre bulk weighs it down a lot. B is perfect for it, since it does require being slotted into a specific team to work well. It can really only switch in once per match unless it gets a lucky giga drain off. It does pester walls well but still hates status as well.
     
  26. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Revival.

    I would like to discuss Alomomola. I believe it could be moved from Middle-A, which is Alomomola's current placement, to High A.

    To quote the OP, stating what a Pokemon in the A tier should have in terms of niche, effect on the metagame, and overall characteristics:
    In bold, I have the primitive factors of an A-Rank Pokemon, which also happen to describe Alomomola in the Neverused tier.

    To go in depth on the matter, I will start with the first bolded description of an A-tier Pokemon: generally perform(ing) well I the tier.

    I believe that anyone who has used Alomomola themselves or witnessed it being utilized properly in the tier can truthfully state that it does it's job well. For those of you unsure or wanting to hear my reasoning, Alomomola is a wall that has a large HP stat and reasonable defenses. With a moveset consisting of Wish, Toxic, Protect, and either Waterfall or Scald, it is able to support teamates with Wishes that can replenish HP, tank basically everything on the physical side of the spectrum bar a few choice banded (sometimes Sawk, Rhy, and Emboar) or super effective (Torterra or Eelektross) attacks without being 2hkod, and cripple common Pokemon with Toxic (or plain outstall them with Wish + Protect.) To add onto this, even if it is hit with a powerful move such as one of the aforementioned pokemon's attacks that can 2hko, Alomomola can switch out to a Pokemon able to wall or resist these attacks and regain health thanks to Regenrator. With all of this taken into consideration, I think it is fair to say that Alomomola does it's just exceedingly well and is probably the best tank in the tier (not to mention that it can run a less common, but still effective specially defensive set.)

    The next portion of the description of an A-rank Pokemon is that it may have some minor flaws , which is preventing it from being broken or in the S-tier. Alomomola has flaws. As previously stated, it can still be 2hkod by a few physical attackers. Additionally, some special attackers, especially with moves like Thunderbolt or a set-up like Calm Mind, can defeat Alomomola effortlessly. This correlates to the next point: requiring team support. Alomomola does need something to defeat powerful attackers and set-up sweepers via revenge killing, resisting / walling, or whatever method possible. Also, a Pokemon resistant to Grass and/or Electric is certainly another helpful source of support as Alomomola has those two weaknesses, only.

    With everything above taken into consideration and Alomomola's overall impact on the tier being examined, I conclude that Alomomola not only fits the qualifications of an a-tier Pokemon, but it does the aforementioned task of walling and team-supporting inordinately well.

    Therefore, I believe that Alomomola should go to the High-A tier.
     
  27. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Agreeing, also can we start to discuss the ranks of the 'untested' pokemon now?
     
  28. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    If you have tested the Pokemon, you may.
     
  29. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    Hello, I would like to discuss the viability of Zangoose.

    I believe that Zangoose should move from the Low-A rank to the Middle-A rank.

    For anyone that has used Zangoose effectively, they would know that it is an amazing wallbreaker. With Toxic Orb and Toxic Boost working in conjunction with already a high attack along with access to great moves like Facade, Close Combat, and Night Slash, Zangoose is a force to be reckoned with in the NU tier. When Toxic Orb is activated, Facade reaches a Base Power of 210(with STAB factored in), which breaks some of NU's sturdiest walls.

    It has access to Close Combat, which is used to hit Steel and Rock types such as Rhydon, Golem, and Probopass. To complete its coverage, Zangoose can use Night Slash to hit ghost types in the tier such as Misdreavous and Drifblim. If supported correctly, it can destroy the opponent's defenses and allow for a fast sweeper to clean up.

    When looking at the definition of an A Rank Pokemon, I definitely believe that Zangoose fits it perfectly. Although it performs very well in the tier, it has the minor flaw of having an average speed stat(90) that can prevent it from fulfilling its role consistently. It also requires some support in that it needs some entry hazards to net important KOs.

    Here are some calcs done to show Zangoose's Facade against NU's toughest walls:
    Jolly: 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 252-297 (58.19 - 68.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Adamant: 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 276-325 (63.74 - 75.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Jolly: 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 138-163 (41.44 - 48.94%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Adamant: 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 151-178 (45.34 - 53.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Jolly: 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 262-309 (49.06 - 57.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Adamant: 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 288-339 (53.93 - 63.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    I definitely believe that Zangoose should move up to the Middle-A Rank.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2013
  30. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Zangoose easily ranks up there as one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. You don't just counter Zangoose. You can check each of his moves separately, but you don't take them all. I think Zangoose can move up to middle A rank, he only really uses 1 set (2 if you count moving SD over one of his moves as a new set) but that one set is all he needs. He is definitely threatening, and usually needs a bit of team support, and does preform very well in the tier as demonstrated by Kody's RMT.
     
  31. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Alright, based off of the last few posts, the following Pokemon and their tiering need to be discussed:

    From untested to a specific rank: Ferroseed, Absol, Claydol, Miltank, and Dusknoir.
    From Mid-A to High-A: Alomomola.
    From Low-A to Mid-A: Zangoose.
     
  32. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Having used Claydol on many teams, I can safely say that it's the best defensive Rapid Spinner in NU. Unlike Armaldo, it doesn't take a hefty chunk from entry hazards (in fact it's immune to Spikes and resists SR) and it's bulky on both sides of the spectrum. It's typing allows it to check huge threats like Rotom-S, Sawk, Klinklang and Primeape. However, it does have some crippling weaknesses to Ice, Water, Ghost, Dark, Grass and Bug. This limits it quite alot, because there are so many pokes in NU it can't safely switch into (Samurott, Tangela, Haunter, just to name a few). That being said Claydol is the premier Spinner right now, and imo the description for B rank fits it nicely. Functions very well, but has flaws that can be remedied with good team support. I'd go as far as saying it's worthy of High B. Feel free to argue with me though.
     
  33. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Jus gonna repost my thoughts on Zangoose

    Zangoose is just an absolutely incredible Wall breaker/Sweeper/Revenge killer. It's STAB Facade is incredibly powerful, on par with CB Sawk's Close Combat, except it can be spammed against common bulky pokes like Weezing, Musharna + Mesprit and rack up 2HKO's without a problem. It also has coverage with Close Combat + Night Slash to nail Rock/Steel Types and Ghost types respectively, so it has basically 0 counters. And Finally Quick Attack deals around 50% to most offensive pokemon, so is a very effective revenge killer and hits a nice speed tier with 90 Speed. It can perform well against every playstyle, it wall breaks against Stall, it straight up 6-0's Buky Offense, and it can get a lot of kills with Quick Attack + Facade against Offensive. It's held back by Toxic Orb putting it on a timer and it's relatively frail, but it's damage output is so incredible whilst it's alive that it's worth it.

    tl;dr it functions very well vs any playstyle, hits a good speed tier and is uncounterable, it is held in check by its frailty and toxic timer. Defo worth A+ imo.
     
  34. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think Miltank is A rank material. It can run offensive and defensive sets equally well, has 3 great abilities and can be fitted on most teams pretty easily. Absol I'd say was high B - it's a high risk high reward Pokémon. Dusknoir - low B. Unlike Misdreavus it can actually do some damage, although it has to rely on the weak Shadow Punch for STAB. Ferroseed - Mid C IMO. Great hazard stacker and check to Samurott - however, it tends to find itself set up fodder for anything with Taunt and/or Substitute.
     
  35. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Miltank - B Its a pretty versatile mon having access to 3 great abilities, and the ability to go Offensive or Defensive. It has access to rocks, heal bell, reliable recovery and body slam to slow opponents, although it hits a good speed anyway. however in practice i find it to be much worse than on paper, its defensive sets become set up fodder, and its offensive sets generally lack power, though it can be strong after a Sap Sipper boost.

    Ferroseed B+/A- This things Defensive typing is incredible, it is a very reliable counter to some of the biggest threats in the tier such as Ludicolo, both Samurott Variants, Klinklang, Rotom-S etc. It also has access to spikes which it can set up reliably due to its great typing, Leech Seed for recovery, Gyro Ball for good damage Vs any offensive mon that doesn't resist, and either T Wave or Protect to cripple things or scout. The beauty of Ferroseed is that it's typing Forces so many switches, which goes hand in hand with its ability to lay down Hazards, and to catch any switch ins with a T Wave or Leech Seed. A great mon that tbh im glad isn't being used more.

    Absol - B It's the strongest Dark type in LU, has a pretty good movepool, can go mixed or SD, and can hax through Walls with Super Luck. However it really struggles to shine in the LU environment due to the plethora of Fighting types, and it being reliably stopped cold by walls like Alomomola, Torkoal, Armaldo. It also really lacks the bulk and requires a LO to hit noticeably hard. It can be a huge threat dont get me wrong, but NU has too many good Checks for it to shine.

    Claydol - A- Claydol is pretty great, it's just so many things mixed into 1, its a spinner, a hazard setter, a Fighting Check, a Volt Switch blocker and packs a ground immunity. Claydol is sort of the best spinner in the tier but at the same time the worst. It is immune to Spikes and resists Stealth Rocks so can remain healthy throughout a match to spin, however it is weak to Spin Blockers, so will struggle to spin against teams with a Ghost type without support or running a gimmicky ring target set. It also has 4 move slot syndrome, which can leave it set up fodder for the right mon, and its defenses arent spectacular, and can be worn down fairly quickly without Wish Support. But due to it filling so many roles, it can slot on any team and perform well, deserves that A rank imo.

    Dusknoir - B- It's Sub Punch set is the only one i think is worth mentioning, it can reliably wall most Fighting types in the tier, and its good bulk affords it a lot of opportunities to set up Substitutes. From behind a Sub it Focus Punch and Shadow Sneak to pick up kills, and Will o Wisp to wear down walla/cripple Physical Attackers. Dusknoirs downsides are its horribly weak STAB options + inability to break through common walls, it also fails to take on the most common Normal types in the tier, with Kanga and Zangoose being able to 2hko it. Misdreavus outclasses it in almost all ways, but it finds its niche as the best Physical Ghost in the tier
     
  36. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I'm in the same range as Afro for them, a little up or down for a few. I won't write as much since you pretty much wrote everything, but I'll add some thoughts

    (Miltank- B+/A-) I really like Miltank, it has 3 great abilities and a plethora of sets. Defensive (both sides) Offensive w/ LO, cursetank, etc. Fast, Bulky, alright attack. If you get a sap sipper boost, he becomes pretty strong, making up for his low attack. It has recovery, Twave, heal bell, and stealth rocks. There isn't much more you could ask for in a wall.

    (Ferroseed- B+/A-) Great spike setter, counters rain teams single handed, huge bulk. He has pitiful offenses, but gyro ball can break subs if the mon is fast enough (mesprit) and it has access to twave+leech seed for some status inducing+slight recovery.

    (Claydol- B+) He and Wartortle are the best spinners in the tier, Wartort is up there because of foresight, Claydol because he has lefties and a more unique typing (good bulk on both sides and alright attacking stats) As Afro said, his downside is that it has 4 moveslot syndrome and cannot run everything it wants to :[

    (Dusknoir- B) Nice poke, can use sub punch or bulky ghost. Will-O-Wisp+huge bulk is nice, priority in shadow sneak, it's a nice wall. It's downfall is that there is no reliable recovery for it :[

    (Absol B+) Strongest dark type in the tier, access to swords dance, there isn't really much to say. He needs some support, but he can do quite a lot of work, even without an SD.