here's where I believe the +/- should be for the current A tier A+ Cofag / Raikou / Togekiss / Shaymin cofag and raikou both have the potential to sweep or clean at the drop of a hat and togekiss is amazing as a wall/stallbreaker. you could make arguments for all three being S-tier but none are quite there, which is why A+ is perfect. shaymin should probably be here too. A Crobat / Flygon / Mew / Rhyperior / Roserade / Slowbro all pokemon that fit into a ton of team archetypes. all are great in the current meta but aren't on the cusp of S like the A+ mons A- Blastoise / Nidoqueen / Sharpedo / Umbreon blastoise and umbreon are the best spinner and wishpasser in the tier respectively, but have little offensive presence that hold both back. nidoqueen is a great offensive pivot against fighters, but struggles a bit to find a niche outside of that (but it's a great niche atm since mien and hera are everywhere). sharpedo is an amazing cleaner but requires more support than other offensive mons in the A tier metalgross belongs in B+, as a metagame filled with bulky waters and crazy strong fire types does it no favours
I think Togekiss deserves S rank too tbh, it really doesn't have any flaws apart from a weakness to Stealth Rocks, it's natural bulk is great and becomes very hard to break with investment and has access to Heal Bell and Roost to remain healthy throughout a match. It has the ability to 6-0 Stall thanks to it's access to Nasty Plot and Serene Grace Air Slash, it's also incredibly versatile, being able to go Choiced, bulky Nasty Plot, offensive Nasty Plot, Para Flinch, Support and even Hustle E Speed (Seriously this thing is strong after it gets a Work Up.) It has an good movepool with access to Fire Blast, Aura Sphere and Grass Knot to give it incredible coverage, and generally laughs off any attacks from potential Revenge killers, unless they're hitting it with a Super Effective STAB. It's ability to Flinch Walls to death essentially leaves it with very limited Checks and Counters, Zapdos being the only reliable one that springs to mind, and that doesn't appreciate switching in to Thunder Wave or repeated hits if Rocks are up. I'd probably go as far to say that Togekiss is the best pokemon in the tier.
Ugh, togekiss, why is serene grace allowed.. I'm not sure I'd agree with it being an S rank, he has several sets, but they mostly do the same thing. He has a few sweeper sets with fire blast aura pulse or grass knot etc and can run a weird work up espeed hustle set, but most of his other sets essentially are just flinch, flinch w/ specs, flinch w/ scarf, paraflinch w/ special bulk, paraflinch w/ physical bulk, nastyplotflinch, and more flinching. It seems fairly one directional and the same pokes that wall 1 set wall the others for the most part, such as zapdos.It breaks stall well because it has roost and heal bell + nastyslash lolimaflinchu. ....ugh But yeah, my personal hatred for this beast aside, it's a solid poke no doubt. Nasty plot sweeper, or stallflincher, it does its job well. I just don't know about S rank, but it certainly is meta defining and is a considerable factor to think about when building a team.
Added the +/- rankings to the OP, using people's opinion and my own judgement. Of course all the rankings are still subject to change. ========= Added both Braviary and Torterra to C. I tested the former and the BU set is quite unique and surprisingly useful in the metagame, sure it isn't the greatest Pokemon of all times but it is pretty good with proper support. Torterra basically because: Spoiler
Still disagree with Mienshao being S. Reasons stated before so I'm not gonna say them again, as I don't have anything to add to it really Why is Slowking only C? It's a specially defensive version of Slowbro and has the potential to Scald burn a physically offensive switch in. It definitely competes with other special walls / tanks for a team slot, but it deserves B rank at least Sceptile to C+. It's an incredibly fast special threat, as well as a physical one. With it's Unburden set, pretty much nothing outspeeds it once it gets going and most of the tier is going to find themselves hard pressed to stop it due to the versatility of it's physical movepool. And the special set nukes and is fast so yeh. Heracross is also primarily choiced and one-dimensional - maybe that could also go A+? Not going to complain with it being in S tho cuz Moxie does get it going and the great typing is certainly an advantage not much else to change at this point this viability ranking thing looks really good. gj and ty to BR and all other contributors
I'd agree with this in theory, it functions just the same as Slowbro. The problem for Slowking in UU, compared to Slowbro in UU, is that the end of the spectrum it walls is entirely full of problematic super effective STAB moves. Slowking can't do its job as well as Slowbro because of things like Raikou, Chandelure's Shadow Ball, Zapdos, Roserade, Shaymin, Nidos' Tbolts, etc, where Slowbro has a typing geared well for phys walling in UU. ------------- Few changes I'd like to argue for: Hitmonlee from C+ to B- or B. A lot of people underrate Hitmonlee saying that it's outclassed by other Fighting types. I really disagree thanks to the niches and sweeping ability that it has in the tier. Hitmonlee's Endure Liechi set is easily at its most threatening in the UU tier of all tiers, with actually quite few things really checking it, though it functions best as a late game sweeper but Mach Punch allows it to have some usefulness during the rest of the battle too. It also can run a pretty effective Spinner set, I find a Sub Spin set doubles up really nicely as an Offensive threat and a utility mon. IMO a lot of teams can easily benefit from Hitmonlee and it's nearly as good a late game sweeper as Sharpedo. Zoroark from C to C-. It's a stupidly high risk, low reward pokemon, its ability doesn't actually help it, it's KOed by walls that it fails to KO/2hko itself (all of them). If I had my way it'd be a D pokemon because it's so bad it's basically worthless, so much of the tier is a much better use of a slot than this thing. actually that's all i can think of actually. i thought i had more to say. i'll have more stuff later probably.
Zoroarks actually a very functional pokemon should it be used properly. its speed allows iit to KO the fairy types in the gen, as-well as check weavilies that dont carry a fighting type move. Wheres Hydreigion? I beleive it should be A or A+, with the right support, this things a monster
Hydreigon is underused, in XY UU. However, if you were to read carefully, you can see that this is the BW UU Vaiability Rankings. BW (Black and White) is Generation Five while XY (X and Y) is Generation Six. Hydreigon is BL in Generation Five on PO. Also, you mentioned hitting Fairy types in your first post when they are non-existent this generation. This is the SubForum for current UU.
Oh, simple mistake on my part, i came here not noticing it was gen 5 discussion , my bad. In which case, disregard my post about hydrei. However, Zoroark still preforms incredibly well if you know how to use it, even more so in gen 5 .
I agree on it being very strong if used well, but the thing is fully abusing zoroark is rather hard. There is also the chance of your opponent noticing your bluff, and then you also have hazards that can be annoying. It's risky, but may be rewarded. Without the Illusion ability, it is rather weak though. I feel like it should stay where it is, if not move down one point.
I agree, without proper support, zoroark would preform pretty badly. And that it should stay where it is, however it isn't to say hat late game, zoroark cleans up pretty well.
How is Zoroark cleaning late game when scarf fighters (among many other things) are common and easily put a stop to it? Also, by the time it is late game, Zoroark's ability is practically useless due to Pokemon being damaged and the amount of options for it to hide as being slim-to-none. In the end, Zoroark's a mediocre Pokemon in UU with a cool niche - it'll never be common or consistently effective.
Zoroark running scarf itself is viable. And exactly, by late game the teams are weakened, and zoroark can come in and clean up if the opponents team is weakened, assuming any pokemon faster than it is either fainted or easily taken care of. Meaning it wont even need to hide considering its high offensive abilities and speed.
Zoroark running scarf itself is pitifully weak and still loses to the fighters, so how does that fix the problem? Also, you can apply slapping a scarf onto any random pokemon and hoping to clean the opposition late game - Zoroark has never been too great in this role because it doesn't have the stand-out attack and/or power ability of Mienshao, Heracross, Darmanitan, Chandelure, etc., so slapping a scarf on it and justifying it as you did just doesn't fit the bill.
actually, zoroark 2HKO's alot of mons in uu, and asumming that the mons he is hitting already has damage done to them, those 2hko's could very well be OHKO'S. Thus , he has a chance to be very efficient late game. Theres also the focus sash set, which lets him take a attack which woulda usually OHKO him and in turn deal some heavy damage . Though it really depends on the team. 252+ SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 283-334 (80.6 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Umbreon: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mienshao: 266-315 (98.1 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO 252+ SpA Zoroark Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heracross: 212-250 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0- Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 229-273 (87.7 - 104.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO 252+ SpA Life Orb Zoroark Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Chandelure: 299-354 (114.5 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO I know zoroarks not exactly the strongest special attacker, or the best sweeper, but this thing is actually worth a try late game. Not exactly that weak or useless.
you could use that logic of 'if some Pokemon have taken some prior damage then this Pokemon can sweep' for any Pokemon, the problem with Zoroark is that it requires a lot more Pokemon gone than some other things (like Scarf Mienshao or Scarf Heracross) those calcs are flawed for several reasons: - Darmanitan isn't switching in on LO Zoroark, and the most common Darmanitan are scarfed which outspeed LO Zoroark - Umbreon runs max HP / max SpD. 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 192-229 (48.7 - 58.1%) -- 58.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Factoring Protect and possible Focus Blast misses, as well as Focus Blast only having 8 PP, Umbreon can outstall a Zoroark - Mienshao isn't switching in on Zoroark and it's a speed tie anyways, not to mention most Mienshao are also Scarfed which outspeed - Heracross isn't switching in on Zoroark and again, most Heracross are scarfed yes, it beats Chandelure, which isn't surprising because a) Chandelure is slower, b) it's weak to Zoroark's STAB considering that many of the Pokemon in the tier are Fighting type which all resist Zoroark's main STAB, it makes it very difficult to threaten entire teams, not to mention it's ridiculously hard to switch in because even an attack from a defensive Pokemon like Suicune 2HKOes it. anything that can outspeed it can pretty much OHKO it, and there are plenty of those in the tier
Just as you can use the logic of" [insert pokemon] isn't switching in on [insert pokemn] ' i can usethe other logic. Also, We're talking late game here, this implies that the majority of the opponents team are already wore out. Also, i used the calcs assuming that none of the oppsoing team are statuesd or had prior damage. Given the calcs, it would be plausible that should it be late game, the pokemon zoroark is trying to sweep are already weakened for him to out'speed and OHKO. Also, scarfed zoroark outspeeds scarfed haracross. And i agree. Zoroarks main purpose as a late game sweeper is due to the very fact that its fery hard to switch in mid-early game. Not to mention we're not factoring entry hazards, status, ect. The point im trying to make is that zoroark is not useless here, and potentially a deadly late sweeper with the right support.
Why are you calculating with Modest LO when the set you keep talking about is Scarfed? Calculations should use the relevant sets if you are trying back up an argument with them. Zoroark's lack of bulk, being considerably weaker than a lot of other common scarfers, and reliance on having an opponent's team weakened (much more so than a plethora of better scarfers) are why it is ranked so low. It's Illusion ability gives it a small niche in the tier as a lure, but its use as a sweeper/cleaner is much better done by a number of better Pokemon. They can use less support than Zoroark to do more damage to a team. That is why Zoroark is rated low. Outside of it's one unique (but extremely unreliable) niche, it's entirely outclassed by better or more powerful Pokemon like Mienshao, Heracross, Chandelure, etc.
I'd like to add on Scarf Dodrio, Scarf Exploud, LO Accelgor, LO Ninjask, Scarf Hitmonlee, Shell Smash Torkoal and Choice Scarf Xatu, which all can work as a potential deadly late game sweeper.
Gurdurr isn't even on the list, what blasphemy is this? I think it's at least a C rank mon. Bulk Up with a bit of defense investment shuts down stuff like Curselax, DD/BU Scrafty, SD Cobalion, SD Bisharp, etc. Idk why no one used in in BW. Also, Alomomola should be way higher imo. The thing shit on like every physical attacker in the tier. Mienshao, Victini, Darmanitan, non SD Heracross, Rhyperior, Flygon, Metagross, Sharpedo, Azumarill, Cobalion, Golurk, Escavalier, I could go on forever. In all my time playing BW UU I never saw another person use Alomomola. I'm the only one who understood fish, and fish understood me, ever since then I've used fish on every team in every tier that allowed. It's at least a B+ mon from my experience but I know some of you would disagree, probably because you've never faced the beauty.
Agree on Alomomola, you have a point with Gurdurr, but the pokemons you listed aren't that common anymore, aside from SD Coba. Things like Honchkrow, Crobat, Zapdos (depending on payback or Ice Punch), Banded Heracross and Slowbro shits on it, all common pokemons in UU.