Basically the same as the last one, but more organized and with better defined rankings. The rankings, that me and other tier leaders decided after a long discussion, are: S Rank: S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team. A Rank: A Rank Pokemon generally perform very well in the tier, but have some minor flaws that prevent them from fulfilling their roles consistantly. Although threatening, they usually require a bit more team support than S-Rank Mons. B Rank: B Rank Pokemon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support. C Rank: C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon, but can find still find use. D(ick) Rank: D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier, or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances. S Rank: Chandelure Heracross Kingdra Mienshao Shaymin Snorlax Victini Zapdos A+ Rank: Cofagrigus Crobat Togekiss Raikou A Rank: Flygon Mew Rhyperior Roserade Slowbro Umbreon A- Rank: Blastoise Metagross Nidoqueen Sharpedo B+ Rank: Arcanine Bronzong Cresselia Darmanitan Empoleon Honchkrow Porygon2 Xatu Yanmega B Rank: Accelgor Amoonguss Azelf Azumarill Cobalion Druddigon Durant Escavalier Golurk Hitmontop Lilligant Nidoking Porygon-Z Qwilfish Rotom-H Sableye Scrafty Smeargle Suicune Swampert Tornadus Venomoth Virizion Weavile B- Rank: Gligar Krookodile Meloetta Scolipede C+ Rank: Bisharp Crustle Ferroseed Hitmonlee Houndoom Machamp Mismagius Omastar Piloswine Rotom-C C Rank: Alomomola Ambipom Braviary Cinccino Gorebyss Milotic Ninjask Sceptile Slowking Tangrowth Torterra Zoroark C- Rank: Gallade Galvantula Registeel Riolu D Rank: Claydol Cryogonal Dusclops Untested: Dugtrio Klinklang Stunfisk
Zapdos is in both S and A for some reason, also Reuni is in A but it's OU now. 2 lazy to offer opinions now, but the majority of the list i agree with, though i still feel as though separating "high" "mid" "low" rankings within each part is a useful thing.
Fixed those mistakes, thanks. I want first to have a general idea of what belongs to each ranking. After that I'll consider adding high, mid and low subrankings, depending on what the people involved in this thread decide.
hi / mid / low is cool as it makes things a bit less cluttery edit: and gives us more to argue over :D EDIT: FOR EXAMPLE, A+ mons could be stuff like raikou / kiss / rosey / crobat / mienshao, A mons would be like slowbro / rhyp / shayshay / cofag / umbreon, A- could be mew / flygon / sharpedo / azerf / nidoqueen (wouldn't mind queen in B+ tho) EDIT AGAIN: metagross should be no higher than B. Blastoise is a B+ mon for sure, maybe A- since it's the tier's best spinner. zoro and cress should probably move down to high C territory, honchkrow is definitely in the upper echelon of B IMPORTANT EDIT: where the fuck is Xatu that's like B+ mon for sure, shit makes it impossible for rocks to get down
I don't really think + and - ranks need to be added to be honest Swampert is missing from the list at the moment, I would suggest putting it in B. It's a good all around tank, can check electric and physical fire types much like Rhyperior can, set up SR and fish for burns with Scald. As well as the defensive set, it can run a very good CB set with Waterfall/Earthquake/Ice Punch/Superpower which can hit pretty much everything in the tier hard with the correct prediction. Can't really see any major flaws with the list so far, it looks about right but I would like to hear what people think about Swampert.
How is Azumarill only a C? it should be a B rank at least, the only things that stop it cold are Slowbro, Amoonguss and Qwilfish, but the final 2 are situational generally depending on Azumarill's set. Sub Punch is it's best set imo as Band fails to do much to the many bulky water types in the tier, but can do good work with hazard stack or against offensive teams. Sub Punch can smack around most of the water types for good damage, whilst they fail to do anything in return, it has 404 HP to live through seismic toss, waterfall/Focus Punch + Aqua Jet combo can demolish basically any offensive mon in the tier, it's also pretty bulky being able to live Mienshao's HJK and other powerful moves. It's also especially useful now with Smeargle in the tier as it can reliably revenge kill Chandelure + Ndoking at -1 Def. Defo worth a B rank imo. I also think Shaymin should be S rank, this thing deals with every bulky water type in the tier of which there are many, Qwilfish, Blastoise, Swampert, Suicune, Milotic, and it can switch in on Scald every time and not fear the burn thanks to Natural Cure. It's offensive set has nice coverage and is a solid wall beraker/sweeper but what really sets it above imo is it's sub seed set. Again like Azu it can make 101 subs, and proceed to stall out many pokemon as they fail to break it's sub in one hit, whilst still hitting very hard with Seed Flare. The best set runs max hp, near max sp atk, bit of speed for honchkrow + 0 atk IV's, this allows its subs to stay intact vs Umbreons Foul Play + Bronzongs Gyro Ball, stalling them out with Leech Seed + Seed Flare Sp Def drops. It requires hardly any support to do its job, except something to take out Roserade + Xatu (Tasty Weavile). Definitely an S rank mon imo, it's role on my teams is to destroy opposing water types, and it does this every single time without fail. Seconding this.
Am i the only who thinks Empoleon Diserves a A rank? I mean, it's pretty easy to keep him alive. Switch into something he walls, set a sub while they switch to a counter and if there's a obiv. Mach punch then attack and switch out. (rinse and repeat) But otherwise i pretty much agree with this list... Azumarill should be A tier or B tier atleast. Choice Band Water Fall hit's real hard. Nidoqueen i think need's to be B rank. I personally never had trouble killing it.
My only main thing is I'd like to possibly argue for Cofagrigus in S. I feel like it is the absolutely definitive anti-meta pokemon in UU, it is capable of walling and sweeping almost simultaneously and it does both easily in a heartbeat. It so easily turns the momentum of a game to your side simply by being in play, especially when OTR, but also when a defensive set. It has no problem setting up on a majority of the tier, even special attackers, and suddenly you have an enormous threat on your hands. If it had some kind of reliable recovery for the defensive set I'd be here being outraged that it isn't already S, right now I do understand why it's A but I think it's truly worth a shot at S. I wish more people would see how incredible it is in/for the UU meta.
Mienshao for S Rank. Easily. It is probably the best scarfer in the tier and one of the best revenge-killers, if not, the best. With amazing offences, decent coverage and only a select few counters, and very, very few checks, it really stands out from the rest of the A Tier Pokemon. I don't care if it's "one dimensional", so are Heracross and Chandelure for the most part. Hi Jump Kick is insanely powerful, and it has access to U-Turn to make it an effective scout. It also has access to 2 very useful abilities.
As much as I love Cofagrigus (along with other Ghosts), I think it may be somewhat of a tough stretch to put Cofagrigus in S-Rank. While he is indeed an excellent Pokemon with OTR being able to fulfill a lot of roles on a team; I'm hesistant to call it on par with the five S-Rank Pokemon. It has to use two turns of set up to become a legitimate threat; it needs both Trick Room up and a Nasty Plot boost to be able to sweep a team; as otherwise it's really slow and without an NP boost it's rather weak. Cofagrigus also misses out on some KO's without hazard support; and while Cofagrigus is fantastic on hazard stacking teams, it's kinda dependent on hazards to sweep. While he has nice bulk and resistances also allowing him to have a defensive role even with OTR, he still has the problem of a lack of recovery; status and hazards as well as repeated attacks will wear Cofagrigus down eventually. Also, there's some specially defensive threats like Snorlax and Umbreon that can tank hits from Cofagrigus and threaten it; they also have enough bulk to stomach +2 HP Fightings. Cofagrigus has the defensive set, which is definitely good with Pain Split, Haze, and WoW, he is weak without any investment into offenses and no NP, and he kills a lot of momentum (kinda like Dusclops). Don't get me wrong though, I like Cofagrigus and he's definitely an excellent Pokemon, but what I just said above covers a good portion of flaws that could prevent Cofagrigus from making it into S-Rank; High A-Rank definitely, but I'm hesitant on whether it's worthy of S-Rank. As for some thoughts of my own. I'd like to see Claydol added to D-Rank. This might seem strange, but I'll just say Claydol receives enough usage to warrant mentioning it here. It is an absolutely horrendous Pokemon at Rapid Spinning, being unable to spin on any of the viable Ghost-types because it can't do a lot of damage to them, while their Ghost STAB hits it super effectively. Claydol is also incredibly weak to the metagame; when you go through all of the S and A-Rank lists, a vast majority of those Pokemon can and will beat Claydol one on one. Claydol also has this terrible inability to come in on anything not a choiced Ground or Electric move. Its terrible defensive typing also makes it lose to most of the B-Rank threats. Even worse is how weak Claydol is; it has no offensive presence, so it gets set up on by every setup Pokemon in the tier. It's an awful Pokemon and needs to be placed in the D-Rank, even if only to tell people not to use it. I'd like to see Krookodile on the list here, probably in B or C, preferably B imo. Scarf Moxie is a great late game cleaner, with enough Speed to suffice, and great coverage in its STABs. With that along with Moxie boosting its Attack, Krookodile can pulverize weakened teams like a complete boss, and has the Electric immunity and the ability to hit Chandelure and Nidoqueen hard as an advantage over Heracross. Krookodile also has better Speed, which allows it to revenge kill some other stuff too. Definitely give it a rank imo.
Yes but I'd prefer giving everything relevant in UU one of the 4 rankings we are using now, to then start adding subrankings. However if the majority wants, I'll comply. Impossible is exaggerating, but I do agree it deserves to be in B. Since it currently doesn't have a ranking, I'm adding it to B without much discussion, but feel free to argue about this. Agree with this, same situation as Xatu. Sure it lacks hard counters, but it isn't particularly hard to beat. The main thing is that switching it in is pretty damn hard, even with its above average bulk, literally everything in A and S threatens 2HKOes it. Second is that setting up a Substitute with the SubPunch set isn't as easy as it sounds, sure it can set up on Milotic (assuming no Scald burn / Toxic), Registeel and Dusclops without much trouble, but nothing else is letting it setup a Substitute without any risk. And finally CB Aqua Jet is pretty good at revenge killing some stuff and killing off weakened stuff, but there are a good number of sweepers that simply don't care about Aqua Jet (Shaymin, Agility Empoleon, Virizion, Kingdra, etc) and playing around CB Aqua Jet isn't particularly hard. Personally I believe it is fine in C, but I want to see other people's opinion on the subject (Including yours) before taking any final decision. I actually agree with you on this (Except on the "best set" EVs, but that's another story). Shaymin is by far one of the most threatening and reliable Pokemon in UU, only has a hanful of counters and most of them can be defeated with the right set (ie: Crobat and Roserade are donked by Psychic, Bronzong is setup fodder for the Leech Seed set, etc). It also has a tons of riskless switch ins, thanks to its bulk and ability. I can elaborate more on this if needed, but I honestly believe it deserves to be in S. Anyone has anything to say about this? I do agree Cofagrigus with most if of your points, but I personally don't think it is S worthy. Setting up with it isn't that easy, considering it needs to use both TR and NP to actually be a threat, and there are some Pokemon that can beat it even if it manages to set up (Togekiss, Meloetta). The reason why Mienshao is A and not S is because of its reliance on Hi Jump Kick and its incapability to switch in. Basically everything with an attacking move is a threat to Mienshao, that alone is a problem. Losing 50% of its HP if it misses one HJK doesn't help it either, if there is a Ghost type in the opposite team you have to basically predict every turn or abstain from using HJK, neither option is particularly good for the Mienshao user. I personally believe it might be C worthy, but going to put it in D for now. It definitely deserves a ranking, even with Moxie Heracross (its most direct competition for a team slot) around Krookodile is still viable and good in the current metagame. Adding to B for now. ========================= I'm going to add some Pokemon to the ranking: - Smeargle to B: Haven't played with it too much, considering it was recently unbanned for a retest, but the simple fact it currently is the best Suicide Lead in UU warrants him a spot in that ranking, imo. - Venomoth to B: The combination of Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder, Baton Pass and Wonder Skin make it an important thread in UU. - Durant to B: Good physical bulk, great speed and hits like a truck thanks to Hustle. It could even be A in my opinion, but not going to make any big decision without a proper discussion. ========================= Possible Changes: Azumarill from C to B Shaymin from A to S Cofagrigus from A to S Mienshao from A to S Changes: Xatu added to B Swampert added to B Claydol added to D Krookodile added to B Smeargle added to B Venomoth added to B Durant added to B Feel free to discuss the possible changes and new additions to the rankings!
Thanks for putting in the work BR. In my opinion Blastoise should be A rank easily. It is the best Rapid Spinner in the tier, and I'd say the only thing keeping it from "fulfilling its role consistently" is a lack of reliable recovery. Great overall defenses give it plenty of chances to switch in, its got access to Scald to fish for burns and a phasing move, and can even run Foresight to guarantee spins. Similarly I believe Qwilfish deserves and A rank as the best spiker in the tier. It is one of the best checks to Heracross, and gets plenty of chances to come in on fighting and physical fire types. I personally don't think Shaymin is quite metagame-defining enough to deserve an S rank.
I think Machamp could be B rank material personally. It has amazing power, and that No Guard Dynamicpunch makes it a very hard Pokémon to switch into. It also gets Stone Edge, Payback (helps with Chandy and Azelf) and the elemental punches.
All I have to say is the following: * For the love of god swap the Nidos. Nidoking's Speed Tier is much more useful than Nidoqueen's bulk. Yes it is a great supporter, but it lacks the speed to take out what is threatening while Nidoking has fewer hard counters. * Zoroark to C. I will be honest and say that Zoroark is not all that good from practice and is too hard to use. It is a great disruptor and screws around with a lot, but Team Preview and other factors that give Zoroark away like hazards and Illusion requirements make it easier to find out and harder to use. You need to be a professional in order to win the bluff. * Blastoise to A. Going with TIWSS's reasons. * I don't think I see Dugtrio, but I'd put that in the B-Rank. As for the whole + and - argument, the main perk of having those is to help filter out Pokemon. For example: if the B-Rank gets too big, it would be nicer to split them into subcategories and give some more room. It also shows which has a higher rank in their ranks (if that makes sense to anyone). It is my no means required, but is a lot more helpful when it comes to organization.
I feel you, but I mean, it has ample room to use both TR and NP thanks to its excellent bulk, good typing, ability to force switches and the fact that your opponent needs to figure out what set it is between OTR and defensive first (though i'd always assume it's OTR for the sake of prediction). And yeah, things like Togekiss and Meloetta do overall win out - but many S pokemon have things that beat their sets. Cofagrigus has very few checks and the only thing that truly screws up Cofagrigus in the whole tier is Scrafty, something which isn't hugely common nor a top tier pokemon. My general strategy with Cofagrigus is to switch it in on common physical resists like a Close Combat or Megahorn, use NP on the switch in, tank pretty much any hit that happens and use TR. Allows for an extension of the sweep and a low health Cofag isn't weak to priority etc. Also defensive Cofag has a reasonable amount of utility alongside the fact that it tanks pretty much everything that can be thrown at it. I really do think it's S worthy, I'm not adamant about it but want to give a case for it nonetheless :] about Shaymin, I really could see it in S. "Shaymin is by far one of the most threatening and reliable Pokemon in UU, only has a hanful of counters and most of them can be defeated with the right set" as BR said, I really couldn't have put it better myself. I feel like it shapes the meta more than it's given credit for, a pokemon that's able to switch in on so much and be an immediate huge threat regardless of the set it's running.
I disagree with the Nido-swapping idea. Nidoking's base 85 speed is outsped by a lot of offensive threats that can easily beat it. Modest Nidoqueen hits harder and can take more hits than Jolly Nidoking at the cost of some speed, which even then it can still outspeed many support/defensive pokemon. Nidoqueen can also run a defensive set, something Nidoking cannot do nearly as effectively. Nidoking still hits hard, still has the same great moveset, and with its decent speed still makes it a great Quiver/Smashpass recipient, so I would keep the two's rankings the same. I agree with Zoroark dropping to C-Rank and Blastoise rising to A-Rank for the above mentioned reasons. I would make Dugtrio B-Rank just because of its ability to trap and revenge kill very dangerous threats such as (but not limited to) Victini, Chandelure, and Raikou. However against many other remaining pokemon in the tier, unless they're low on health, its base 80 attack really isn't potent enough to hurt much else. Here's a few non-UU pokemon I would propose adding: Spoiler Druddigon - B-Rank Druddigon is a pretty good pokemon, being able to set up Stealth Rocks on Xatu due to Mold Breaker, hits hard with base 120 attack with STAB Outrage and priority Sucker Punch, and can also run a defensive set with good support moves such as Glare, Roar, and Dragon Tail, all of which can still hit Xatu. Cryogonal - D or C-Rank It should be mentioned since it's a spinner that, while weak to the rocks it should be spinning and has paper mache physical defense, is the only spinner that can beat Roserade 1v1 and also has reliable recovery. Being able to wall everything on the special side outside of Chandelure's Fire Blasts and access to Hail is a pretty nice bonus too, I guess. Bisharp - C-Rank Bisharp is walled by many physical walls such as the bulky waters and Gligar, is 4x weak to the oh so common Fighting-type and 2x weak to the also common Fire and Ground-types, and requires a lot of prediction to use successfully. However, behind those weaknesses are multiple resistances, decent bulk, a great base 125 attack, and the great Defiant ability, which can easily destroy unprepared teams, especially late-game. Mismagius - C-Rank While outclassed by Cofagrigus in bulk, spin-blocking, and late-game sweeping ability, Mismagius can still run multiple, effective offensive or support sets (apparently no one knows it can learn Heal Bell) with its above-average base 105 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed. Crustle - C or B-Rank A solid hazard setter that can set up both Rocks and Spikes along with the excellent Sturdy ability. Escavalier - C or B-Rank While it doesn't have the fighting STAB/attack as Heracross or the speed of anything else in the tier, it has an excellent typing, a great amount of bulk, a VERY hard-hitting base 135 Attack stat, and the ability to run banded, defensive/sp.defensive, or be a monstrous TR recipient. Rotom-C - C or B-Rank Pretty much replace Rotom-H's Fire-typing, Overheat, and rock weakness with Grass-Typing, Leaf Storm, and U-Turn weakness and it can still be a dangerous offensive or defensive threat. Houndoom - C-Rank Houndoom is a great check to pokemon such as Chandelure and Victini due to its immunity to fire and psychic and its resistance to ghost, and can then proceed to destroy them with STAB priority moves such as Pursuit and Sucker Punch. Unfortunately, unless you instead run the underwhelming (but occasionally effective) NP set, its mixed set requires a lot of predictions/mind games, making it a difficult pokemon to use, plus it also has multiple counters/checks holding it back. Omastar - B-Rank A greatly underrated pokemon, it can either be a powerful Shell Smash sweeper or run a very defensively bulky hazard setter, which is the only pokemon (aside from Smeargle) that can set up any/all of the three available hazard moves. Guessing the wrong set could either mean having multiple hazards on your side of the field or getting your team swept. Gorebyss - C-Rank Pretty much the only usable Smashpasser before Smeargle got unbanned, although it's possible to use it on pure Baton Pass teams or surprise people with a pure offensive set. I could mention Huntail, but it would either be D-Rank or not even worth putting in the list since it's just a worse Gorebyss.
Hi everyone. I’m glad to see that this thread is up an organized well. Anyway, I shall be posting my opinions on possible changes and explaining why I believe said changes should occur. Feel free to argue with me, because my logic isn’t always the best, but be prepared for me to counter-argue your counter-argument to my initial argument ^_^ Kingdra to A Kingdra is a great pokemon in UU, no doubts about that. Not only does it have the unique typing of Dragon / Water, but it also has decent stats across the board. Kingdra’s main sets are Choice Specs, Rain Dance + 3 Attacks, and Dragon Dance (usually with Substitute.) The Specs set is a real pain to deal with, but without Rain Support, or an opponent’s team that is generally weak to Kingdra, it won’t be breaking through much, in my opinion. Typical special walls such as Snorlax and Umbreon can survive Kingdra’s attacks and heal up / damage it easily. The Rain Dance set takes a turn to set-up and also goes down pretty quickly with Life Orb, hazards, and possible attacks (or whatever happened during the free turn when Kingdra set-up rain) which makes it less effective. All in all, it’s a decent pokemon who can sweep late game vs HO if given a shot, but it is not consistently effective (like an S tier pokemon should be.) Finally, the physical set, Dragon Dance, lacks the off-the-bat power after 1 DD. It rarely sweeps and stall teams have the ability to breaks its substitute and tank its attacks, which makes it even less effective of a sub-sweeper. Furthermore, although Kigndra is somewhat effective and versatile, it isn’t too consistent and lacks the qualities of an S tier pokemon. Azelf to B Azelf is an interesting pokemon. It’s fast, but frail. It has a great movepool and good attacking stats. However, it just plain isn’t breaking through much in UU and the Stealth Rock set isn’t anything special, either. The Nasty Plot set is decent, but needs a lot of support because it isn’t breaking through walls like Umbreon, Snorlax, etc. Also, the Choice Banded set has surprise value and decent power, but it’s still nothing overwhelming, more of an average pokemon in the tier. I believe it belongs in B, maybe even High B once it’s all said and done. Shaymin to A (@The people suggesting it goes into S) Shaymin is indeed a great pokemon, but it isn’t ‘metagame defining’ (as TiWSS said) and it needs quite a bit of support to do well. The special attacking LO set is nice, with decent power and helpful coverage, but it’s walled by the typical walls unless it gets lucky with drops. Plus, most teams pack a grass resist and even pokemon like Roserade, especially if bulky, can potentially check, if not counter, Shaymin. The SubSeed set is underwhelming, in my opinion. Usually, shaymin that lacks LO has two or three answers on each team and they can easily manipulate its lack of breaking through them to wear down shaymin, force it out. All in all, I believe LO is the best set. But, the sub seed set canfuck with balanced and some stall, just isn’t really doing much vs pokemon with recovery or walls. I don’t really know what else needs to be said, but it just isn’t S material. Possible points: Venemoth to C. Metagross to B. Raikou to S. Qwilfish to A. Milotic to D (I mean, what the hell does this thing do and who uses it!?, @Milo) Also, there should be an E rank for untested Pokemon, like Dugtrio or lower tier Pokemon that can be added but we lack testing / information on. Edit for lower tier Pokemon: Piloswine could make a decent addition to the C tier. Although I preffer Gligar, who is amazin and underrated, it has a niche in the Ground / Ice typing with good mixed bulky after Eviolite and thanks to great HP stat. Ice Shard, Earthquake, Roar, and Stealth Rocks is the set I'd use and it is nice utility. Mismagius would also fit into C, if not high D. It has a mediocre niche with Nasty Plot as OTR Cofagrigus is stealing its thunder, or Chandelure is used to break walls as a ghost. It can run TrickScarf, TauntWisp, you name it - it probably has it, but it doesn't have many great sets or anything. Also, it is frail as a feather in the physical side, but it has nice 105 speed. I'd say C will be fine for it. Slowking could go B rank if it got the use and appreciation it truly deserved. I mean, it can run a specially defensive and offensive sets. Slowking has nice typing, like Slowbro, only special bulk, which just makes it fit into different teams which don't need it as much in the metagame - doesn't mean it is a bad Pokemon. It is still relitively bulky and has plenty of offensive potential (especially with Specs / LO TR / NP as options, and regenerator so it has nice survivability.) The niche Slowking has in the tier is quite significant, in my opinion. Furthermore, although it never gets the love it should be given, it still is worth of at least a low B ranking. Amoonguss to C rank. It is overshadowed by Roserade, but it has more mixed bulk and regenerator. Not muc to say, but decent Pokemon that just doesn't do a ton in the tier. Edit: Oh wait, Amoonguss is UU here :x Well, in that case, it should go C rank, in my opinion. Crustle and Scolipede to B rank. Crustle has the lovely Custap set that typically gets up two hazards, or an attack, if not specifically played around by one of a few Pokemon that can do so. Also, you don't have to lead with it if you see it in team preview, it can be a lure lead to give you momentum off the bat then hazards later for a sweeper or something like scarf Heracross. Very viable, great niche as stated previously, and when used the hazards it gives has a huge effect on the game - B rank fits it well. Scolipede has speed, spikes, Tspikes, and endeavor (which is amazing with sash.) It may also run aqua tail and Megahorn (always runs the later), which do decent damage. All in all, a bit less overall significance than Crustle, but still hanging in B, if not then High C - until smeargle retest ends, at least. Bisharp to C. It has a nice of sweeping on the offensive with steel type and stab sucker punch off of godly attack. Sadly, it is frail, slow, horrible defensive typing in UU, and cannot find much time to boost. Once it boosts, some walls may stop it, but it wrecks most HO. Problem is, it requires so much support that c fits it, in my opinion.
Busy Saturday and Breaking Bad Sunday (greatest shit I've seen in my whole life btw). I'll update this later today when I wake up, I obviously haven't forgotten about this n_n.
I don't agree about swapping Nidoking and Nidoqueen. In a tier dominated by fighting types like Heracross and Mienshao, Nidoqueens extra bulk comes in very handy. Nidoking really needs to run a Timid nature to make best use of its speed which is its biggest advantage over Nidoqueen, whereas Nidoqueen can afford to run Modest (which hits harder than Timid Nidoking) and invest in HP EVs. 252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs 4 HP/0 Def Nidoking: 38.82% - 46.05% 3 hits to KO 252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs 100 HP/0 Def Nidoqueen: 30.92% - 36.42% 3-4 hits to KO As you can see from the above calculations, Nidoqueen is taking significantly less damage from Heracross and is actually a decent check to it unlike Nidoking that is almost 2HKO'd by a resisted hit. It's the same thing with many of the other fighting types in the tier, Nidoking is simply too frail to take advantage of it's resistances. I agree with your thoughts on Zoroark, though. C is a good rank for it. It's nothing amazing, but it can occasionally get a surprise kill when played right which can open the door for something else to sweep. About adding + and - to the ranking, if it gets too cluttered it could be something to consider but right now I think 4 ranks is enough. Definitely agree on Blastoise being A, it's far and away the best spinner in the tier. Pretty much all the ghosts have a hard time spin blocking it due to not wanting to switch into Scald. Chandelure/Golurk both take super effective damage from it and while Sableye/Cofagrigus can switch into it a bit easier, then won't appreciate the likely burn and they can't do a whole lot back in return (Cofagrigus needs to set up a Nasty Plot to do any real damage to it). I really think Kingdra belongs in S. Quoted from the OP: S Rank: S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team. There is no Pokemon that's more versatile than Kingdra in UU (Victini comes closest) and this is what makes it so good. Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, Rain Dance are all viable and can cause major damage. Kingdra has a STAB combination that is resisted only by Empoleon and its typing is also great for it defensively (double resistance to water/fire attacks and and only taking neutral damage from electric, grass and Ice type attack). Here is a damage calculation just to give you an idea of Kingdra's power: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Kingdra (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Umbreon (+SpDef) : 39.59% - 46.7% That's a potential 2HKO on one of the tier's best special walls with just a bit of prior damage. Agree on this point. Azelf is nothing amazing in the current metagame. It doesn't really have the power to break through things like Umbreon and Snorlax, is very frail and it's easily revenge killed by scarf users such as Darmanitan, Heracross or Mienshao which are all very common. In my view, Shaymin is the most threatening grass type in the tier and IS metagame defining. It is only one of two grass type Pokemon in the tier that has natural cure which means it can switch into bulky water types without having to worry too much about being burned by Scald. Roserade, the other grass type with natural cure, has a hard time switching into certain bulky waters, namely Slowbro and Swampert as it can be OHKO'd by Psyshock from Slowbro and takes a lot of damage from Swampert's STAB Earthquake. Shaymin on the other hand, switches in with very little risk against these Pokemon. I have to wonder if you've actually used the SubSeed set when you're calling it 'underwhelming' because IMO it is Shaymin's best set. Many Pokemon that are usually decent answers to Shaymin's LO set (when it doesn't get a sdef drop) such as Snorlax, Umbreon, and Bronzong have a really hard time beating SubSeed Shaymin and are just turned into set up bait. Bronzong/Umbreon cannot even break Shaymin's substitute which means it can start firing off Seed Flares to fish for a special defense drop and Leech Seed turns Snorlax's massive HP stat against it. If you're opponent lacks specially defensive Roserade, Amoonguss or Crobat then they're most likely in for a massive headache and even these Pokemon can be hit hard with Shaymin's coverage move (Psychic/HP Ice/Air Slash). The Life Orb seed set is also deadly, it has great coverage and even special walls will be forced out if Shaymin lands a special defense drop In case it isn't obvious, I believe Shaymin should be S rank.
Okay, I see your points. I'll drop the Nido subject. Guess Speed isn't everything :[ Anyway, I personally think Cryogonal should be D. It has enough usefulness to be put on the list (best Roserade counter in existence, good offensive spinner), but even I admit it isn't great enough to be high on it.
While I agree with your stating Kingdra is versatile, as most mixed-attackers are, the DD set is nothing special (as I stated in my last post) and the Special sets need quite a bit of support. Without Rain or Multiple layers of spikes, it isn't going to be getting those crucial 2hkos (Rain Support, Hazard Support.) On the RD set, it needs to waste a turn setting up rain, so that's just as bad if not worse. Underlined what fit Kingdra. I'd reply to what you said on Shaymin, but you have good points and I already stated what I believe is true. I still stand by it being A, but I wouldn't really mind it going S, just don't think it is that brilliant. Also, I've used SubSeed and LO Shaymin on multiple teams, @Orcelot asking if I've used SubSeedMin. Just thought I'd mention some more LU / NU Pokemon Druddigon is a B rank Pokemon, in my opinion. It is really hard to OHKO and can be a stealth rocker and choice banded with sucker punch, EQ, outrage, etc. All in all, Druddigon is great, underrated in my opinion. Tangrowth is a tough one. I'm going to say lower B or higher C, good bulk on the physical side with regenerator is nice, but not much more niche out if it.
Sorry for the late post. This is the 3rd time I type this, the first two got deleted accidentally (my computer is a shit) and I got quite frustrated. The other two versions of this post were better, but cba doing that again. I have to agree with you on this. Blastoise definitely isn't the best buky water, but without any doubt it is the best spinner. Good typing, good stats, workable movepool and the fact it can actually hurt spinners, unlike Hitmontop, makes Blastoise A worthy. The best Spikers is arguable, considering both Smeargle and Roserade are in the tier. I do believe Qwilfish is pretty good, because its typing and Intimidate allows it to check Pokemon like Heracross, Darmanitan, Victini, Mienshao and Cobalion. However, its nonexistent special bulk, exploitable weakness and poor offensive presence, make me hesitate on agreeing with you. Noted. I haven't used Machamp in months, so I'm going to abstain from commenting on this one. Orcelot and Kyrk already explained this one. It isn't as hard to use as you imply, but I really don't think it is better than a C. I haven't seen any Dugtrio and when it was UU in the past it was pretty underwhelming, not a fan of putting in B but eh. Well I gave my opinion and you gave yours, hopefully more people post theirs to solve this "conflict". I /really/ believe Shaymin deserves to be in S! Druddigon is a great, underrated Pokemon in UU. I agree with you. I guess D is fine for this thing. Sound good. The last one is kinda outclassed by Smeargle, but Custap + Sturdy and an offensive presence make it unique enough. But stopping it isn't particularly hard, even if you don't prepare specifically to face it. Escavalier is quite underrated in UU, it's a good counter / check to common UU Pokemon like Shaymin, Umbreon and Snorlax. However, I'm not sure if it deserves B, it needs a bit more discussion. Rotom-C is pretty good, but is not a particularly huge threat in the current UU metagame. Leaning towards C right now. This is fine. Underrated? Sure. Worthy of B Rank? No, in my opinion. Too many exploitable weakness and fairly easy to revenge kill (Scarfers / Pokemon capable of taking a hit and koing in return) even after setting up. I really don't think it is worth more than C rank, but feel free to argue this. This is fine You are underestimating Specs Kingdra. Even the two best special walls in UU, Umbreon and Snorlax, lose to this set after some minor prior damage. The former can Protect to gain Leftovers recovery and has Wish, which allow it to deal with Kingdra decently if it is healthy, but the latter outright loses if Hydro Pump doesn't miss. Empoleon is probably the only UU Pokemon that can switch into this set without much risk, but the lack of recovery means it can be worm down “easily” and it gets smacked hard by HP Electric. However this set relies too much on Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump, both of them come with big drawbacks that can easily backfire. Rain Dance Kingdra isn't meant to survive for long, it only needs a handful of turns to get its job done. It can easily take a hit thanks to its bulk and typing, setup Rain Dance and have enough HP to get 2-3 kills against HO / weakened teams, if played correctly. +1+1 Kingdra isn't that much of a problem for most teams. But what makes the DD set a huge threat in UU is its ability to set up multiple DD on so many things, specially against bulky / stall teams that don't have a problem with +1+1 Kingdra. Azelf does break Snorlax after a boost, offensive versions get OHKOed and defensive ones survive with 10% assuming no prior damage. The problem with Azelf is its nonexistent bulk, which makes getting the NP boost borderline impossible, and how easily revenge killable it is. I agree that it should be B. Sounds good As much as I like Slowking in UU, I don't think it deserves anything higher than C. Sure, its high Sdef, Dragon Tail and Nasty Plot make it quite unique and gives it a nice niche in UU, but despite all that Slowbro is far superior simply because it fits the metagame better. Slowking is good at dealing with specific threats like Kingdra, but in most cases Slowbro is simply better. Spoiler Agreeing with you here. I don't think Crustle deserves to be B, for the reasons I gave in my reply to Kyrk's post. However I fully agree with Escolipede part. Stopping it from doing its job is practically impossible, the combination of high speed, (Toxic) Spikes, Megahorn, Swarm and Endeavor makes it a huge threat in the current tier. Agreeing with this. I don't think it should be higher than C. Sure, it has a great physical bulk and Regenerator, but most important threats in the tier have no problem dealing with it and people are already used to Amoonguss, so is not like people aren't going to be prepared for Sleep Powder + Regenen. ====================== Possible Changes: Azumarill from C to B Shaymin from A to S Cofagrigus from A to S Mienshao from A to S Qwilfish from B to A Machamp from C to B Azelf from A to B Changes: Blastoise from B to A Zoroark from B to C Dugtrio added to Untested Druddigon added to B Crygonal added to D Bisharp added to C Crustle added to C Mismagius added to C Escavalier added to B Rotom-C added to C Houndoom added to C Omastar added to C Gorebyss added to C Piloswine added to C Slowking added to C Amoonguss added to C Scolipede added to B Tangrowth added to C ============== I'd like to hear more opinions on the possible changes.
commenting on the possible changes since BR won't stop fucking pestering me azu is fine where it is. cb aqua jet sounds tempting until you realize that a lot of mons can come in on since it's not as strong as you'd want it to be. mono-water also means you're sacrificing a team slot where blastoise / slowbro / etc could go shaymin to S is tricky. on one hand it was the premier grass in the tier until roserade's unban and it would have deserved the spot before then. but with rosey in the tier now they overlap a bit and neither really edges one the other one out. I think it's good where it is, pretty much equal to rosey. not sold on mienshao being s-tier, but I wouldn't be averse to it going to S, if that makes sense. it's strong as fuck no doubt, but the other mons in the tier have a lot more moveset diversity while mienshao does one thing, although extremely well. it almost fits the "superlative" definition, but I think it still has competition in the scarfer teamslot from shit like flygon / victini / etc. cofag is the same as mien imo, one of the best As that could be an S but isn't quite there in my eyes. it's great with mien/hera everywhere as it deterred spamming cc/hjk and it can sweep, but getting that sweep off isn't as easy as advertised considering status and its own low BP attacks. azelf moving to B would be cool. the dudes who say it can't beat snorlax / umbreon are wrong tho qwilfish / machamp are fine where they are, lol
Damn, this was a long read. ._. One think I'd personally consider is Suicune going to A instead of B. Crocune is pretty unique, and all it really takes is some Spikes support - something that Roserade will happily provide - and setup fodder like maybe Umbreon to threaten. Slowbro can't compete because of its hatred of status, and its natural bulk really is stellar. It can also shock people with surprise offensive sets too, which again sets it apart from all of the tier's other bulky Waters except maybe Kingdra.
My thoughts on the potential changes: Azumarill: I agree with Afro Smash here, Azumarill is a very threatening Pokemon. It's not the easiest thing in the world to switch in although it can often scare things out such as Chandelure with the threat of Aqua Jet and use that opportunity to set up a substitute (I also agree with Afro when he says this is Azumarill's best set) and bulky waters that run Scald as their only attack such as Suicune and Milotic can also potentially be used as Sub fodder, but that's a bit risky due to the burn chance Scald has. I think Azumarill should move up to B. There's really no Pokemon in the tier that 'outclasses' it and while there are several Pokemon that can take Aqua Jet comfortably, Azumarill can always catch them on the switch with one of its coverage moves (Ice Punch/Double Edge/Superpower) or even just set up a sub and start firing off Focus Punches. Shaymin: I already posted my thoughts on Shaymin and I still firmly believe that it should be S. Cofagrigus: I've used Cofagrigus A LOT in the past and while its popularity has meant that people prepare for it more now, Cofagrigus still really shines in a tier where fighting types dominate. There are really only two solid counters to Cofagrigus if it gets the chance to properly set up and those are Togekiss & Meloetta. Special walls such as Snorlax and Umbreon do 'ok' against it but they will usually end up losing if Cofagrigus sets up Nasty Plot due to their weakness to Hidden Power Fighting. Also, it doesn't absolutely need to always set up both TR + NP although it definitely has the bulk to do so fairly consistently. Many offensive teams will struggle to beat Cofagrigus under TR even when it's unboosted, especially if the team has been weakened and/or spikes are in play. Many players will attempt to stall out trick room turns by switching between things that resist Shadow Ball/HP Fighting so entry hazard damage can build up pretty fast. I know pretty much every Pokemon likes spikes support, but the difference here is that Cofagrigus can actually block spin attempts. It's S worthy in my view. Mienshao: This is a tough one. On one hand, the presence of any ghost type is a major hindrance to it as it risks losing 50% of it's HP if it tries to use Hi-Jump Kick before removing them. There are certain Pokemon that are weak to fighting but often run protect such as Umbreon and Rhyperior which can also cause Mienshao to lose 50% of it's HP for nothing... but on the other hand, Mienshao's Hi-Jump Kick is extremely powerful, it has decent coverage with moves like Stone Edge and Hidden Power Ice and U-turn is very easy to spam until' late game, when Fighting resists and ghost types have been removed/eliminated. I'm leaning towards it moving up, but I would like to hear more opinions from people. Qwilfish: Another Pokemon that I have used quite a bit in the past. It's still good, but IMO not the best spiker in the tier anymore. Smeargle is a much better option for offensive teams and it has a lot of competition with Roserade for the spiker spot on balanced teams and unlike Roserade, Qwilfish really can't do anything to the best spinner in the tier, Blastoise which is quite hard to spinblock. I think Qwilfish is fine where it is. Machamp: Fine where it is, I think. Lots of competition among fighting types in the tier, so there are usually better options. The only thing Machamp really has going for it is No Guard DynamicPunch Azelf: Already gave my thoughts on this, I think it should move down. P.S. I was talking about unboosted Azelf when I said it can't break through Umbreon/Snorlax. It gets very few opportunities to set up a Nasty Plot in this metagame.
Duggy to B imo He's a good poke, but because of his lack of power and bulk, he isn't A or S. Trapping a metagross is great, but unless you're CB and it's offensive, it's gonna live and EQ and hit you w/ 2 BPs or EQ/mash+BP. You can switch into a victini that isn't using u turn, but a smart player won't lock themselves into vcreate if you have a duggy. Chandy will die to duggy, so that's nice, but if scarfed, duggy can only switch in after something dies/a uturn/volt switch. He gets rocks, so he can switch into a choiced raikou, get rocks up, and kill without any fear. He's also very fast, the fastest poke outside of crobat not counting scarf pokes. B rank.
CroCune isn't anything special in the current metagame. Despite its bulk, more often than not it won't be able to boost to the point it becomes a threat to the opposite team, the UU metagame is simply too offensive for CroCune to get a chance to properly setup. Also Gen 5 Sleep mechanics make Rest + Sleep Talk unreliable and extremely risky. Offensive Suicune, which is really common and is hardly is a "surprise" set, is by far its best set. Sure 90 Satk isn't anything special, but that combined with its speed and overall bulk allows it to get the job done. However, it lacks immediate power and its "walling" capabilities are virtually nonexistent, so don't expect it to last for long like its other sets. I believe Suicune is fine where it is. This post confuses me, are you talking about Focus Sash Dugtrio? ======================== Adding two LU Pokemon to the ranking: - Sceptile to C: It is basically faster than everything but Weavile, good offensieve stats and good movepool. Roserade and Shaymin are usually far better than Special Sceptile, but its speed gives it something over those two Pokemon. However its best set is the SD Acrobatics set, which is quite unique because it allows Sceptile to beat some of its usual checks, hit surprisingly hard and it becomes imposible to outspeed, making it a great late game sweeper. - Hitmonlee to C: Its unburden set is similar to Sceptile's, but it hits significantly harder. The Endure + Liechi + Reversal is incredibly threatening if you lack a Pokemon like Slowbro or Cofag, and / or if you lack priority. ========================= Possible Changes: Azumarill from C to B Shaymin from A to S Cofagrigus from A to S Mienshao from A to S Changes: Azelf from A to B Sceptile added to C Hitmonlee added to C Going to give people another day to discuss about the possible changes, after that i'll decide their position based on the arguements in this thread. PS: Is there any other lower tiered Pokemon that should be added to the ranking?
I alphabetized the whole list per rank :3 Amoonguss is in there twice btw. Spoiler S Rank: Chandelure Heracross Kingdra Snorlax Victini Zapdos A Rank: Azelf Blastoise Cofagrigus Crobat Flygon Metagross Mew Mienshao Nidoqueen Raikou Rhyperior Roserade Sharpedo Shaymin Slowbro Togekiss Umbreon B Rank: Amoonguss Arcanine Bronzong Cobalion Cresselia Darmanitan Druddigon Durant Empoleon Escavalier Gligar Golurk Hitmontop Honchkrow Krookodile Meloetta Nidoking Porygon-Z Porygon2 Qwilfish Rotom-H Sableye Scolipede Scrafty Smeargle Suicune Swampert Tornadus Venomoth Virizion Weavile Xatu Yanmega C Rank: Ambipom Amoonguss Azumarill Bisharp Crustle Gorebyss Hitmonlee Houndoom Machamp Milotic Mismagius Omastar Piloswine Registeel Rotom-C Sceptile Slowking Tangrowth Zoroark D Rank: Claydol Cryogonal Dusclops Untested: Dugtrio[/HIDE]
Ah, sorry, I was indeed talking about sash duggy there. Although, duggy can run a CB set, as I've seen a few times on the ladder, to decent effect. Unlike his sash set, he can hit things much harder, such as metagross, who normally would live his EQ's and kill it off w/ 2 BP's. But sash duggy can switch in a raikou w/o fear of dying and kill unless scarf and locked into hp ice/grass. duggy gets free rocks vs tbolt locked pokes as well. I think it is indeed deserving of at least B rank.
Piloswine to B pls. I started using it recently and that thing is an amazing Fire and Electric type counter, being able to hold its own against top tier threats such as Zapdos, Raikou, Darmanitan, and Victini, while also having access to the coveted Ice Shard to pick off Flygon as well as other weakened threats
Lilligant deserves a place in B for sure, I think. It's heavily underrated due to its boring typing, but access to Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance make it a huge threat to any team not running a Snorlax (and even while running a Lax, some bad sleep talk rolls could spell doom very quickly). Piloswine on the other hand is definitely not a B mon, not with so many fighters running around. C would be okay though. About Mien/Shay/Cofag: again, I would be okay with them being S tier, but it just doesn't feel right. All of the S-tier Pokemon are huge threats that have helped to shape the meta in some way; the only Mon out of these to do that is Mienshao. Shaymin is great but not a complete offensive threat the way Tini or Kingdra are, and while Cofag is amazing in the current meta, it's more of a reactionary Pokemon to Hera and Mien and not something you have to keep in mind too much as a threat when teambuilding.
Proposing more lower tier pokemon to be added since BR asked me to: Spoiler Lilligant - B-tier An underrated set-up sweeper that can destroy unprepared teams thanks to access to one of the best boosting moves in the game, Quiver Dance, and Sleep Powder. Own Tempo + Petal Dance also allows it to hit with an extremely hard-hitting grass attack without the confusion. Galvantula - C or B-Tier A very fast, but frail attacker with base 108 speed as well as great coverage, great offensive typing, and a much more accurate Thunder thanks to the accuracy boost from its ability Compoundeyes. Braviary - C or B-Tier Base 123 STAB Brave Birds hurt, and can also run a Substitute+Bulk Up set as well as a choiced (preferably banded) set. It also has decent coverage to take care of anything that tries switching in on it, as well as the useful U-Turn for scouting. Alomomola - D or C-Tier While its Wishes restore the most HP in the tier thanks to its very impressive base 165 HP, as well as it being difficult to destroy on the physical side due to its modest base 80 Defense and access to the ability Regenerator, it has very few ways to actually harm its opponents other than its mediocre-damaging water attacks and Toxic stalling, making it setup fodder for a lot of sweepers in the tier. Riolu - D or C-Tier Riolu is a pretty situational pokemon, requiring hazards on your opponent's side of the field, your health being preferably full, and a turn to actually use Roar, it can easily tear apart unprepared teams with hazard damage thanks to the combination of Roar and the Prankster priority-boosted Copycat. This lets Riolu spam priority Roars unless your opponent has a higher or faster priority move such as Protect or Extremespeed. Accelgor - C or B-Tier By far the fastest spiker (and pokemon excluding Ninjask) in the tier that can easily get at least two layers of spikes with the suicide lead, and can prevent and slightly cripple spinners from spinning for a turn thanks to Final Gambit. It can also run a more offensive set with its impressive base 100 sp.atk. Gallade - C or B-Tier A very versatile fighting type, it can run multiple physical sets while having a great moveset and a strong base 125 Attack. While it also has a great base 115 Sp.Def, it's very frail on the defensive side, which can be alleviated by running a Bulk Up set. Cinccino - C or B-Tier A very fast, but frail pokemon that can break subs revenge kill a lot of pokemon with its ability Skill Link combined with several diverse multi-hit attacks. Whimsicott - D-Tier Its only function is to annoy the crap out of you and force switches with annoying support moves such as priority Prankster Encore, Stun Spore, and Leech Seed to name a few. It's easy to beat with most common grass types (although you can run the powerful, but inaccurate Hurricane to deal with them) or to simply switch around until its PP for its attacks are gone, but it can be decently effective in stall if you can constantly keep your team's hazards up. Ferroseed - D or C-Tier Another spike setter with decent bulk and support moves, but with multiple Fighting and Fire pokemon roaming in the tier coupled with no form of recovery outside of Leech Seed, it won't be lasting very long unless played well with additional defensive support. Klinklang - C-Tier While it's a very usable late-game sweeper thanks to its very useful boosting move, Shift Gear, and an impressive base 100 Attack and 115 Defense, Klinklang has a pretty poor move set and many common weaknesses that prevents it from destroying more teams than it should. Stunfisk - C or B-Tier A pretty underrated support pokemon, it has a lot of bulk and makes an excellent counter to pokemon such as Raikou while also potentially being able to cripple most voltturn teams in general thanks to its electric immunity and the ability Static for pesky U-Turners.[/HIDE]
I agree with most of Kyrk's rankings. However I don't feel Braviary deserves a C rank; in terms of Brave Bird spam its almost entirely outclassed by mons like Honchkrow (more powerful) and Crobat (much faster and much better typing). I honestly wouldn't really see much reason to use Braviary in the current metagame. I also think Klinklang isn't really C worthy. Its stopped too easily by many of UU's physical walls, and mono steel typing really isnt great in UU. Other than that great work Kyrk, glad to see so many other usable mons get included. Duggy really isn't B worthy. In OU its used to trap defensive mons, so its much easier to bait them and then U-turn out or double switch into Duggy to trap them. However in UU Duggy is mostly able to trap offensive mons like Tini/Chandy/Raikou, and it really can't switch into any of them bar a well-predicted tbolt/volt switch from Raikou unless its sashed and no hazards are up. And since they are offensive mons its much more difficult to bait them and double switch to duggy, since they're mostly only coming in on free switches or on other way harder to predict switches. Also yeah Pilo doesn't deserve B either, since its bulk and offensive capabilities aren't quite up to UU's standards and its typing isn't stellar. I agree with Meow that none of Shaymin/Cofag/Mien deserve S rankings. I've already voiced my thoughts on Shaymin, and I think neither Cofag or Mien are entirely metagame defining either. Mienshao is a major threat, but its pretty much one-dimensional. In comparing it to the S Rank Heracross, what sets Hera apart is STAB Megahorn which prevents Hera from being walled by Psychic types. This dual STAB really shaped the meta, leading to the rise of pokes such as Nidoqueen, Cofag and Crobat that resist both CC and Megahorn. Mienshao on the other hand is far easier to check, since it can be handled by Psychic types such as Slowbro and Cress that are unable to take on Hera. Furthermore, the simple presence of a Ghost makes clicking HJK much more risky than CC. It's faster but much easier to check and much less metagame defining. Cofag is even less worthy of an S rank imo. Its defensive set is okay but nowhere near S worthy as I'm sure anyone would agree. Its best set is easily the OTR set, which is quite good but the fact that it needs two turns to even attempt to set up a sweep is on its own enough of a drawback to prevent it from being S. Its straight up handled by mons like Togekiss and Meloetta, and its pretty easy to play around for any decently built team. Edit: Gonna suggest Ninjask to either C or D. It's easily taunted/roared out, but nothing can pick up speed boosts and potentially pass them on with the ease that Ninjask does. It has a pretty unique niche and deserves to be included at least.
I must register my strong disagreement with what you're saying here. "Needing 2 turns to set up a sweep" you make it sound like Cofagrigus doesn't get free turns all the time and doesn't have the huge bulk to take any next hit to do it. And it's really, really not easy for decently built teams to handle OTR unless they have 1 of 2 pokemon, 1 of which is BL2 rather than UU! Cofagrius is the best spinblocker in UU, one of the best walls and utility mons, and even above all of those things an anti-meta sweeper that is a strong threat vs offensive and defensive teams. It's truly an S mon. About Piloswine, I'd want to push for it to B because of its insane tankiness and ability to beat common physical and special attackers. However, I'm fine with C, I understand it's fairly niche. It's a really goddamn good niche though. It imo is better for more teams than Gligar whose only point is to take a Close Combat and suck lol.
Let me illustrate just a few of the many ways to play around Cofagrius. First of all, you'll be using Cofag to spinblock, right? But Cofag really doesn't appreciate being toxic'd, which both the primary spinners in UU carry. Furthermore, its outsped by both spinners so should they run foresight then Cofag has failed at its job. Additionally, it doesn't like taking on Blastoise at all since it doesn't like eating Scalds and can't set up due to Roar. (Yes I realize Blastoise can only carry 4 moves but my point is its not a good matchup whether Blastoise carries Foresight or not) If Toxic'd, its fairly easy for Special walls like Umbreon and Snorlax to handle Cofag. Offensive Rosey takes only 42-50 from a Shadow Ball and can OHKO with Leaf Storm after rocks. Specs Raikou takes 36-43% and can 2hko with Tbolt. Too lazy to calc but the Sub CM set fares pretty well as well. Specs Kingdra takes 42-38% and ohkos with Draco Meteor after rocks. Specially Defensive Rhyperior is only 2hko'd by a +2 Cofag and can phaze out or deal decent damage with EQ (its a 3hko after rocks accounting for lefties). Standard lax takes 43-51% from a +2 hp fighting and can phaze out, and offensive lax takes 45-53% and can 2hko w/ band or deal 38-46% w/out. Point is, there are so many ways to handle Cofag that I don't even immediately consider it when teambuilding like I do the other S-tier threats. Yes its a great check to Fightings, great supporter and can threaten offensively. Certainly worthy of an A rank. But is it metagame defining and S worthy? Not in my opinion. Also, I wouldn't say Cofag is hands down the best spinblocker in UU. I prefer to run Chandy on offensive teams, since its more of a threat and is not spun on by Foresight spinners 99% of the time.
If S means metagame defining then there is no way Mienshao isn't an S, you can't build a team without taking Mienshao in to consideration, its scarfed HJK sweeps any unprepared team with ease and it can U-Turn on Checks to weaken them. Mienshao unlike Heracross forces you to run Checks for it since there are no pokemon bar obscure scarfers like Azelf that can outspeed and revenge kill it, and it can 2HKO generic Defensive pokes like Blastoise with HJK, and OHKO most offensive pokes, so you have to use its specific counters like Cofagrigus, Qwilfish etc. to make sure it doesn't sweep, good defensive synergy is obviously a possibility too, but its no guarantee. Also I agree with A for Cofag, it's too specially Frail and takes too many turns to set up to be an S rank imo, but is a great mon that can fit on any team as a Fighting Check. I do think Shaymin is worthy of an S rank based off the S rank description, it is 'superlative' in destroying bulky Ground and Water types, If you slap this thing on your team no CroCune or CM Slowbro is ever a threat, it can switch in on Scald and either Rest up or heal up on the switch with Natural Cure, it can break through Specially Defensive walls like Umbreon + Snorlax with Seed Flare defense drops, severely limiting it's reliable Checks. It can also go Sub Seed to Stall Break or Offensive to Wall Break/Sweep, and before you know its set it's difficult to switch in to, if you go in to Lax on the Sub Seed set you're going to be easily Stalled etc. However Shaymin isn't really a pokemon you need to think about during teambuilding, but it's still incredibly good at what it does and deserves that S rank imo.
Spoiler Thanks! I edited the rankings a few days ago using this post, but forgot to mention it. Piloswine is usable in UU, but B worthy? Definitely no. It has an specific niche that comes handy once in a while (Check Raikou and Zapdos), but it really doesn't have much to offer and it barely is a threat offensive or defensively in UU. I have never use it, but it seems to have potential in theory. Adding it to B for now. I haven't seen this thing in a while in UU. It hits harder with it STAB than both Zapdos and Raikou, it; it is one of the few special attackers capable of breaking through Umbreon without a single boost; and Thunder / Bug Buzz / Giga Drain offer an excellent coverage. However its bulk is nonexistent and it has a nasty SR weaknesses. Adding it to C for now, but I'll make sure to test it more in the near future. Spoiler (05:12:24) Korra: btw fuck Kyrk posting about Braviary (05:12:40) Korra: I have like 10 min theorymoning it in UU (05:12:51) Korra: I really can't think of any reason to actually use it (05:13:00) +Xdevo: defiant (05:13:03) Korra: other than "It might get a boost from Arcanine" (05:13:11) +Xdevo: Qwilfish (05:13:12) +Xdevo: ~ (05:13:19) +Xdevo: so common (05:13:22) Korra: y (05:13:39) Korra: with Scarf it cannot break anything (05:13:44) Korra: with CB is waaaaaaaaaaaaay too slow (05:13:49) +Xdevo: Sub BU (05:13:51) +Xdevo: maybe (05:14:09) Korra: idk (05:14:13) Korra: it doesn't seem too hard to stop (05:14:24) Korra: and I don't think it has many setup opportunities in UU (05:14:28) +Xdevo: Immunity to ghost is somewhat decent (05:14:30) +Xdevo: in UU (05:14:37) Korra: well it beats Cofag (05:14:42) Korra: but Chandelure donks it anyway (05:14:53) +Xdevo: I just meant for switches (05:15:28) +Xdevo: donking cofag could help Adding it to untested for now. I guess I need to use it a bit more, hopefully other people do that and post their opinions here. Adding these to C, for the reasons you gave. This one is similar to Scollipede. Stopping Accelgor from actually doing its is quite hard thanks to its speed and offensive presence, also it beats the best spinner of the tier in 1v1, which is quite important. Adding to B Basically a less useful Heracross. It does get Ice Punch and Shadow Sneak, which is nice but nothing special. I think C is fine for this thing. I haven't seen this thing lately, but it's is a fairly decent Pokemon and switching into it is surprisingly hard. Adding to C. I personally believe this thing is C, for the reasons you gave. Prankster is such a gay ability. Adding to C. Great typing, good bulk and SR / Spikes, this thing is fairly decent in UU, even if its offensive presence is nonexistent Same as Braviary. Adding to C. ================ Possible Changes: Dugtrio from Untested to B Changes: Lilligant added to B Galvantula added to C Braviary added to Untested Alomomola added to C Riolu added to C Accelgor added to B Gallade added to C Cinccino added to C Ferroseed added to C Klinklang added to Untested Stunfisk added to Untested Ninjask added to C Azumarill from C to B Shaymin from A to S Mienshao from A to S ====================== Two things: 1- I'd appreciate if people tested the Pokemon in Untested and posted their opinions here 2- I think we can start with the +/- ranking now (ie: A+, A, A-, etc)
I thought I'd contribute and make a rough draft of a + and - sheet. This isn't a confirmed list, just a basic idea of where I think they should go from how they were put originally. You don't have to follow it by any means :x [SECRET]S Rank: Chandelure Heracross Kingdra Mienshao Shaymin Snorlax Victini Zapdos A+ Rank: Cofagrigus Raikou Togekiss Umbreon A Rank: Blastoise Crobat Metagross Mew Rhyperior Roserade Slowbro A- Rank: Azelf Flygon Nidoqueen Sharpedo B+ Rank: Arcanine Bronzong Empoleon Honchkrow Nidoking Xatu B Rank: Azumarill Cobalion Cresselia Darmanitan Durant Hitmontop Lilligant Porygon2 Qwilfish Rotom-H Sableye Scrafty Smeargle Suicune Swampert Tornadus Virizion Weavile Yanmega B- Rank: Accelgor Druddigon Escavalier Gligar Golurk Krookodile Melloetta Porygon-Z Scolipede Venomoth C+ Rank: Amoongus Bisharp Ferroseed Houndoom Machamp C Rank: Ambipom Cinccino Crustle Gallade Gorebyss Hitmonlee Milotic Mismagius Ninjask Omastar Piloswine Registeel Rotom-C Sceptile Slowking Tangrowth Zoroark C- Rank: Alomomola Galvantula Riolu D Rank: Claydol Cryogonal Dusclops Untested: Braviary <---- No idea where it should go Dugtrio <---- Really think should be in B Rank Klinklang <---- I don't know. We already have Metagross... Stunfisk <---- People still use this? [/SECRET]
seeing how we're making +/mid/- now, got my list ready here. not accounting for the things I want in higher/lower tiers [SECRET] S Rank: Chandelure Heracross Kingdra Mienshao Shaymin Snorlax Victini Zapdos A+ Rank: Cofagrigus Raikou A Rank: Crobat Flygon Mew Nidoqueen Rhyperior Roserade Togekiss Umbreon A- Rank Blastoise Metagross Sharpedo B+ Rank: Arcanine Cresselia Darmanitan Empoleon Porygon-Z Porygon2 Yanmega B Rank: Accelgor Azelf Bronzong Cobalion Druddigon Escavalier Golurk Hitmontop Honchkrow Lilligant Meloetta Nidoking Qwilfish Rotom-H Scrafty Smeargle Suicune Venomoth Virizion Weavile B- Rank: Amoonguss Azumarill Durant Gligar Krookodile Sableye Scolipede Swampert Tornadus Xatu C+ Rank: Ambipom Crustle Ferroseed Hitmonlee Houndoom Machamp Mismagius Omastar Piloswine Rotom-C C Rank: Alomomola Bisharp Cinccino Gorebyss Milotic Ninjask Sceptile Slowking C- Rank: Gallade Galvantula Registeel Riolu Tangrowth Zoroark D Rank: Claydol Cryogonal Dusclops [/SECRET] happy to give justifications to anyone who wants to challenge my tiering positions. also willing to be wrong. most should be obvious but not all will be givens.
too lazy to sort everything so im going to use Aurist's list as reference and say stuff from there Mienshao to A+. It's been said to death as not S rank material and I agree. One-dimensional, Ghost-types ward off use of its STAB HJK, pretty easy to revenge in general, blah blah blah. Piloswine to B- (I'm ok with C+ but I still think it's B- material). I'm like the only one who likes Piloswine ;~;. Anyways, I've voiced my opinion on this before, and while it's bulk may not be stellar, it's good enough. It's Attack reaches 328 fully invested iirc, which is pretty good for UU. Checks a good half of the current S mons and a decent portion of A mons, as well as a few more (and that's just the standard bulky offense version). So yeah it may still be niche, but I wouldn't go as far as calling it a very specific one Gligar to C+ or even C. It sports no offensive presence, is easily shut down by Taunt, and any Ice move will bring it down, as will strong Water moves Togekiss to A+. Tanky, haxy (ugh paraflinch), has reliable recovery in Roost, great cleric, can boost for a sweep. extremely versatile both offensively and defensively