[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Moltres

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Tyki, Sep 8, 2013.

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  1. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Yes you're correct I can't see why because I haven't had any problems with it since like 2 people brought it up in the suspect thread.
    Ok that's all fun and games with hurricane but it's still unreliable same with fire blast. It does not matter if Munchlax is terrible to you (I never use it anyway myself..), that does not change the fact that it's a counter. People tend to use what's popular at the moment don't they?
    The amount of times Moltres would have to switch in and out with a specs set means it won't be surviving long. Yes Lanturn has a chance of being 2hko'd by Hp Grass, but unfortunately that's only if you predict right with it.

    I'm sorry if revenge killing is a bad argument in general... but in this case I'm just stating how it really is with Moltres, not theory. It is a threat I don't disagree but the combination of s.r, scarfers, plain faster mons and resistances forcing it to switch in and out makes Moltres manageable.
     
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    The main problem with Moltres is that after Stealth Rock, virtually any strong neutral move will OHKO. Not to mention that although it's very difficult to switch into, there are plenty of Pokémon who can easily force it out or KO it without fear of being OHKOd. Sloking, Lanturn, Manectric, Rotom(C) (C needs a Scarf), Galvantula, Swords Dance Feraligatr (survives Life Orb HP Grass, OHKOs with Waterfall - Aqua Jet OHKOs after Rocks - Hurricane only has 12.5% chance to OHKO without Rocks), SD Kabutops. I think Moltres is OK in LU - if being very difficult to switch makes a Pokémon broken, I can think of at least 10 things we should be banning.
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    For you guys still talking about revenge scarfers, think about this. Specs Moltres has the power to Nuke everything in it's path pending one hurricane hits or an easier fire blast hits. Add in "if" rocks are up on its side, then that gives it 3 switch ins against non priority and slower pokemon upon something you have dying. Revengers have to come in after something has died in order for it to be called a revenge. In plain sight, that means if one of the two moves hits, then that means 2-3 things are dying per game if they aren't munchlax, regirock, lanturn (unless HP grass but that lower the kill count if you can't spin). LO would have to roost after an attack, which lets them bring out a pokemon that can KO you under the right circumstances. It's why I hate the RoostLO set so much, as well you are leaving yourself as bait and not using your power to the full potential. Specs allows you to nuke a lot of threats in 3 switch ins. Scarf lets you outspeed 90% of "revengers". SubRoost lets you scout and potentially recover HP during a match, as well as stall out with pressure and toxic. LO Roost + 3 attacks is good, but the set I dislike the most in terms of offensive longetivity.

    Case in point of what I mean, Moltres can and will switch out if you force it out, come back in 1-2 times more when you have lost something as long as it outspeeds the target, and continue to deal damage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  4. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    If we were banning certain Pokemon because of their power, then we would be banning pretty much any powerhouse that is allowed in the tier - Crawdaunt, Aggron, Omastar, so on and so forth. Also, every team is going to have a way to handle Moltres that is not Stealth Rock. But that also applies to every other Pokemon in LU - you are overemphasizing its strong points. Sure, Specs Moltres is strong - so is Magmortar, Omastar, Escavalier, Emboar, Absol, etc. Most of them lack the speed or bulk of Moltres, but they all have a pretty high chance of killing something if used correctly. Is there no risk factor in Moltres? No, there is indeed a risk. While it is easier to spin in LU than some other tiers, Moltres gets half of its HP ripped off by Stealth Rock, and has key weaknesses to Water, Electric, and Rock-type moves, all three of which are common in the tier.

    I also notice that you are mentioning the strengths of the choice sets and not the cons. The problem with Scarf is that it is too risky: even with a Spinner, Stealth Rock is going to limit Moltres' switch-ins way too much that it is generally not worth it. Nobody is leaving a slow, fragile Pokemon in on Moltres to begin with; that is like saying Aggron is going to stay in on Krookodile. SubRoost is indeed very dangerous, but it lacks power, and can be handled with Clefable and Qwilfish, too very solid Pokemon in the tier, and can be stopped cold by Cinccino, even if it gets hit with Flamethrower.
     
  5. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    The biggest problem lies in the fact that, Moltres has literally no safe switch-ins. The only usable LU pokemon that can come in on Moltres is Lanturn, who has no reliable recovery, and can be nailed by repeated HP grass. So basically one has to sacrifice one pokemon before it can be revenge killed. Even then rapid spinning being so easy in LU, Moltres can comeback again to wreck havoc. And there's also the sub roost variant which can make even revenge killing difficult. Also there's the possibility that Moltres itself is carrying choice scarf. None of the choice scarf or priority users that would revenge kill it can come in safely against its stab combination. The instant firepower Moltres provides is incomparable at this moment; all the while sitting at a good speed tier in LU standards. So my opinion is it should be BANNED from LU tier.
     
  6. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    First of all, Choice Scarf Moltres is a bad set, even with a spinner. Also, there are SEVERAL powerhouses in the tier, and although Moltres cannot be switched into, neither can you switch anything into a +1 Crawdaunt or anything of the similar. Not the strongest point here, but you get the idea
     
  7. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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  8. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Celestial you do realize how much momentum you give up by killing something with Moltres Fire Blast and then having to switch out the next turn on i don't know. Smash Pass Omastar?? Moltres has a very hard time outright sweeping offensive teams, and every time it has to switch out that's momentum your opponent gets in their favor.
     
  9. Haughts

    Haughts New Member

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    I'm sorry if what I'm going to say has been mentioned, I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in being a pretty avid LU player. I am quite frankly, sick of LU being a continuous battle of rocks/spinning. With so much moltres, scyther, eruption typhlosion, entei, and other flying/bugs that are rampant in the tier, the entire battle becomes centralized around blocking spinning and trying to out predict the use of foresight. I've even seen alot of teams with backup spinners (offensive hitmons/kabutops). This also forces the use of LU's mediocre ghosts which I hate, and bulky SR users but staying on point, moltres slipps through the cracks when your rocks are spun away and always takes out something or ruins your special wall. Gastrodon and lanturn get nailed by HP grass. Then other special walls that are neutral to moltres attacks such as special def clefable and spiritomb are usually 2Hkoed. Main point being, rocks are not a very large threat to moltres because of the abundance and ease of spinning, and moltres' power makes running a sp wall in LU moot. One needs to run a ghost and an *electric* revenge killer and really no sp wall. Moltres is in a sense dictating a lot of team building.


    eviolite tangela can easily switch into crawdaunt even at +2
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  10. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Nobody uses Eviolite Tangela. Sure, it is bulkier than Tangrowth, but Tangroth can hold Leftovers, and is not completely useless if Tricked.
     
  11. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    can we stop talking about crawdaunt, it is no way relatable to moltres, so stop bringing it up.
     
  12. Haughts

    Haughts New Member

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    I use it in all the time. Its a tank. Staying on point, its really hard to find a good special wall to run opposite it, as I said earlier, because most sp walls get destroyed by moltres. And I'm not a huge fan of banded/specs hyper offense style
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  13. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Tangela has nothing to do with countering Moltres. Let's stay on topic please.
     
  14. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    And what else also has nothing switching into it? Choice Band Durant. Sure, it has that accuracy issue, but only Poliwrath and Qwilfish can switch into Choice Band Durant and expect to survive. And Moltres suffers from an accuracy issue as well, with an 85% accurate Fire Blast and 70% accurate Hurricane, so accuracy is really not a very logical argument here. Banded Durant is similar to Specs Moltres in how it really has no safe switch-ins. And Durant itself is not broken, because its biggest flaw, its pitiful special bulk, can be easily exploited. Durant is very specially fragile, and Moltres cannot switch in too many times, even with a Spinner available. If we declare Moltres broken because it has no safe switch-ins, then Durant would also, by that logic, be broken as well.
     
  15. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Please, PLEASE tell me why you are talking about Durant in a Moltres suspect discussion. Can you please stay on topic on all your posts lol. You can say Durant is broken but there are more switch ins into Durant then Moltres tbh. Durants coverage is incomparable to Moltres' imo, as if you run the LO set posted by Afro Smash there are honestly no safe switch ins. Another plus about Moltres' is its decent bulk for an offensive monster unlike Durants special defense. Durant is honestly one of the biggest LU threats in the metagame right now but I rather just discuss about Moltres for now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  16. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I know that some of his previous posts have been questionable, to say the least, but this is a valid comparison, in my opinion. A Pokemon that hasn't been brought up much in suspect discussions, as of late, and is seemingly fine in LU (according to most), in Durant, can threaten the whole tier similarly to Moltres. Although Moltres can sometimes 'spam Specs Hurricane', CB Durant basically 2hkos the whole tier - bar Qwilfish. Not to mention that Moltres is 4x weak to rock (meaning Stealth Rocks!), not blazing fast, and doesn't really have much survivability on offensive sets, especially with priority on Pokemon like Kabutops and Entei alongside hazards.
    Hell, we can compare it to CB Terrakion in OU. Not many things can tank 2 of its CB STAB hits, but that doesn't make it broken. I could dig up plenty of examples of powerhouses that threaten everything in a metagame, but aren't broken. With everything taken into consideration, 2hkoing 95% of the tier doesn't make something broken, especially if it lacks a boosting move and is 4x weak to rocks. I know Moltres is a huge threat, but it is not broken, in my opinion.

    Also, @Wepwn directly, you stated his logic was flawed without explaining why, which contributes nothing to the discussion or your posts quality. Plus, he can bring up whatever significant LU Pokemon as long as it has some context in the discussion or correlation to Moltres.
     
  17. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    The difference is, Durant and Terrakion aren't able to just spam 1 attack when they're choice locked, whereas Moltres pretty much can with Hurricane, negating the drawback of being choice locked. It can also perform just as well with a LO and has Roost to negate LO recoil, the same can't be said for the others, although a SR weakness helps to balance this, but the spinning debacle has been covered already. Durant can also be revenge killed by basically any Special Attacker faster than it, or any special attacker that can tank 1 hit, Moltres is a lot harder to revenge kill due to roost and greater bulk, or at least has a lot less pokemon that can revenge kill it.

    But I mean if we wanna ban Durant too don't let me stand in the way :]
     
  18. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Being choice locked on Hurricane isn't a drawback, though fire blast more or less is. The negating factor is the accuracy, though there are many common rain setters which negate this accuracy knock down (and all still have a viable niche on a team, since you are only wasting one move slot and possibly an item.)
     
  19. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    There's so much wrong with this post.

    Durant can spam either Iron Head or X-Scissor fairly reliably mid-game. Same goes for Terakkion with CC and SE. I agree that Hurricane is more spammable in that less things resist it, you also really don't want to be spamming a move with Focus Blast accuracy in the first place. Roost takes up a turn. When you Roost they bring in their check / counter and force you out. This only works when their check / counter is already weakened and thus is not particularly useful. Particularly when you aren't gaining any net health, only nullifying SR damage.

    Spinning also isn't as easy as you make out for Moltres if your name isn't Foresight Chan. Let's say I'm running a Mismagius or a Rotom, and you've got Kabutops (arguably best and most common spinner for Moltres). You SD on the switch and KO me with Aqua Jet. Sounds like great position to spin right? Problem is, now I'm bringing in something that will force out your Kabutops at risk of a KO and create offensive momentum for me. Kabutops isn't the easiest thing to switch in in the first place which severely limits its ability to be in a position to spin a second time, even assuming my offensive momentum falls apart. This obviously doesn't apply to stall because lol offensive momentum on stall.

    As to the Durant vs Moltres comparison, Durant has very good physical bulk, and special attackers that outspeed Durant include Sceptile, Accelgor and Scarfers. Moltres has considerably less bulk due to the SR weakness (even w/o SR its still only taking 2/3 attacks on average), and has far, far more things that outspeed and kill it given that it can be hit on either side of the spectrum.

    Durant hits harder too:
    0 Atk Hustle (custom) Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def (custom): 139-165 (40.76 - 48.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 105-124 (30.79 - 36.36%) -- 61.89% chance to 3HKO
    Courtesy of honkcalcuator, default stats used for defensive mons, offensive stats altered to 109 on Durant, 125 on moltres

    So we've got Durant, which is commonly seen as fine in LU, and we've got Moltres, who is slower, takes more from hazards, relies on worse accuracy moves, and has arguably worse typing. Good comparison.


    Regarding Lanturn and Slowking, a couple comments I made that seem to have been missed (thx 40 ppp)

    If your primary answer to Moltres is Lanturn you should be running Protect in your fourth slot (popularized by user Blarajan). Lanturn's fourth move is always pretty "whatever fits your team best" and Protect allows it to come in, even on an HP Grass and have a good shot at forcing it out. Over the course of the match its also pretty useful for whoring Leftovers on a Pokemon with no recovery.

    On Slowking, its still a pretty damn good check because a) you have to have Stealth Rock, b) you have to both predict the switch in, and hit the Hurricane, c) you have to hit a second Hurricane after that, and d) Regenerator and Slack Off mean its not a one and done check.

    Relevant calcs:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 42.64% - 50.51%
    2-3 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs 252 HP/144 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 46.45% - 54.82%
    2-3 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs 40 HP/216 SpDef Lanturn (+SpDef) : 43.39% - 51.12%
    After entry hazards: 224 - 255 (55.86% - 63.59%)
    Note that two rounds of Leftovers (switch in and Protect) negates the SR damage.
     
  20. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    All right buddy. If you can name me 10 things INSTEAD of moltres that should be banned, then be my guest. But I highly doubt you can give me 10 viably bannable pokemon before moltres, because there simply arent that many.

    Now, starting my own argument as to why I believe moltres is broken. Moltres is a truck, granted, many pokemon that are not boken at all such as rampardos are even more of "trucks," but moltres has a few qualities that makes it nearly un-handle-able. For one thing, moltres has 306, which, although not extremely fast, is enough to let it outspeed or speed tie common offensive threats in LU. Not only does it outspeed a lot of LU pokemon, but it has the potential to OHKO the vast majority of them. Forget your argument about it being "easily revengable" because almost all offensive pokemon, to an extent, are pretty easy to revenge. Let's take a pokemon like tornadus, for example. It was banned regardless of the fact that "scarfed electric types beat it," and it's moderately easily revenge-killed. It also happens to be weak to rocks like tornadus. Although, granted, tornadus' access to priority bulk up, rain dance, tailwind, and substitute did make it quite broken. To be honest, though, Moltres only has two true counters-- both of which are NU. All in all, life orb moltres is simply broken, and makes it almost impossible to teambuild anymore. I'm not just talking about stall. You cannot have a balanced or offensive team where simply nothing walls moltres. It's honestly ridiculous. Also, for spinning, foresight chan and even foresight lee as well as kabutops are fantastic spinners. And LU definitely is a tier where it isn't that hard to spin in.
     
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  21. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First off, your Tornadus comparisson is off. Tornadus has prankster substitute to block things like scarf volt switch. Also, Tornadus' main niche in the tier was sweeping, so it only took rocks damage once (plus, it's 2x weak, not 4x.) Moltres is more of a hit and run the fuck away kind of pokemon - it won't be staying in for long, unless you fodder it. So even if you get the ideal situation were you can fire off a free hurricane at will and get a kill (which isn't always, you have to: A) risk missing, B) take 50% from rocks (usually), and C) have a pokemon of yours die or predict well enough to get yourself in alive), then you are likely forced out (if not, then your opponents team just plain isn't well-made for the metagame. A plethora of common scarf users and faster pokemon destroy it.)

    Next, how is life orb moltres broken? You just poorly intigrate it into what you're saying at random that "All in all life orb moltres is simply broken." Is it the fact that it lacks 'true counters'? Didn't we just go over the fact that something 2hko'n the whole metagame doesn't have to be broken? A la CB Terrakion, Specs Chandelure, CB Durant, etc.

    Finally, LU is a pretty damn hard tier to spin in. You have Spiritomb, Rotom-A, Mismagius, etc.
    Basically, you have to predict them coming in and get the OHKO with Kabutops (or 2hko and outspeed vs Spiritomb). So, 50% success rate isn't that great. If you fail to predict them, you give Offensive Rotom-A a chance to gain momentum (or whatever else it elects to do) and Mismagius a chance to fire off a Tbolt or Sub (depends on set, obviously.)
    With Hitmonchan, you have to once again win the 50/50 with Foresight or Rapid Spin, but then you have to take another turn to spin, if you're right. So, you take damage, they can gain momentum, etc. And who says they can't just set rocks back up? Not every teams runs suicide crustle that'll be dead mid game, sadly. (Same goes with Hitmonlee, but less common, more frail, etc.)

    Also, @AfroSmash's response to my post (which was in response to Wepwn's posts, who was responding to Alfalfa ^_^), I agree with Texas, who basically disproved a few things you said
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
  22. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    Except for the fact that I mentioned that tornadus was broken for other reasons such as prankster substitute, rain dance, bulk up, and tailwind. Also, as for the part about pokemon that have no true counters, chandelure is broken in UU anyway, its just that since the pokemon is #1 in usage you have everyone sucking its dick, terrakion cant 2hko hippowdon, gliscor, slowbro, landorus-t, etc, and has counters. Also, terrakion is OU for a reason. Finally, CB durant has plenty of counters as WELL. It also has pitiful special bulk and is even more easily revengable than moltres. Also, hitmonlee has the same special bulk as hitmonchan with more speed and attack, and considering you named all special attackers, its physical bulk isnt that important in those scenarios. Also, LU is, no matter which way you look at it, pretty easy to spin in. There are a plethora of good spinners and a pretty crappy amount of good spin-blockers. Mismagius, the newest addition, is too frail to spin-block at all. If something gets OHKO'd by stone edge, you cannot call it a "reliable spin-blocker".
     
  23. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Was it really neccessary to post like 2/3 of something you posted earlier?

    Anyway on to your points, Durant has a lot more checks that are commonly used and have uses outside of walling it such as Steelix, Qwilfish, Poliwrath + sometimes Moltres itself. Iron Head + X Scissor are nowhere near as spammable as Hurricane until you get to late game, Hurricane you can spam literally turn one if your opponent doesn't have a Lanturn, and net KO's. It also doesn't really require any prediction because anything that can survive a Hurricane can't outspeed Moltres the next turn, whereas with Durant you need (generally) to make a prediction to land KO's. And again Moltres doesn't require a Choice Item to be efficient at Wall breaking like Durant does, so is a lot more versatile. Also you say they can bring in their Check/Counter whilst you roost, the problem with that is um, they don't exist so unless you want to risk switching to a faster mon as you predict it to roost and risk getting destroyed by a Hurricane/Fire Blast on the switch, that doesn't negate roost being effective.

    Also you say that Foresight Chan can always spin, but then go on to call Kabutops the best spinner, which I don't understand. Both are very efficient at getting the spin off, and yes Kabu might not be able to spin after it manages to KO the Ghost but it isn't difficult to find an opportunity to spin later unless you are severely weakened or the opp is running pure HO without an Entei.

    Stealth Rocks can be set up again but mostly every Stealth Rocker lacks a form of recovery so get worn down very easily throughout a match and will find it difficult to find opportunities to set them up again Mid-Late game. And if they do manage too and your Spinner is dead, you can always switch to Moltres as they set up rocks, kill them, then have 1 more free kill when you next come in (assuming youre forced out next turn.)

    As for Bulk, Moltres doesn't have 'considerably less bulk due to SR' because Stealth Rocks aren't always up, rarely should they be in fact if you're deciding to run a Moltres on your team, as keeping rocks off the field is basically your #1 priority, Durant can be killed not only by Special Pokes that naturally out speed it, but also basically every Special Scarfer in existence since its special bulk is so pitiful, and it doesn't have any form of recovery. And like i said even Special Attackers that don't outspeed but can tank 1 hit are able to revenge kill it, whereas basically nothing that can survive a hit from Moltres is able to OHKO in return, most barely 2HKO. And Durant has a 100% surefire poke that can always revenge kill it in the form of Scarf Magneton, i'm not saying you're forced to run this to beat Durant, but it will get rid of Durant every single time.

    I don't know what the calc showing that Durant was stronger on a neutral opponent was supposed to prove, since that can't really ever be transferred to an actual LU game.
     
  24. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    @Tournadus Comparisson, If you mentioned Tornadus was broken for other reasons, then why did you compare it to Moltres?

    @Powerhouses from other tiers Comparisson, Chandelure: I practically stopped reading your post after you mentioned Chandelure and "everyone sucking its dick." Terrakion: Terrakion can 2hko Gliscor depending on spread / situation. Terrakion can 2hko Slowbro, but this is a UU pokemon - if NU pokemon don't count as Moltres counters, this doesn't count here!!! And what reason makes Terrakion OU? Explain yourself before stating your general stance._. Durant: What are these 'counters' to CB Durant? Poliwrath is a check, Qwilfish is a better check, but it cannot hurt it much.

    @Spinner disucssion, Hitmonlee is still used less. When it's used, it isn't even a spinner with foresight...LU isn't easy to spin, as I stated. But, you can just say it's easy without explaining it and saying anything to counter my arguement that it comes down to a 50/50 and rocks can be put back up be right, of course!

    What? I was responding to different peoples arguements...maybe if they read then I wouldn't 'repeat' myself. Not that I repeated much. Plus, it had different context!

    @Durant checks / counters, Steelix: Steelix is easily 2hko'd by Superpower and cannot OHKO back - barely 2hkos with EQ when the drop from superpower counted - not a counter / check. Qwilfish: I said it was a check. Not that it does a ton bar get a layer or two up. Poliwrath: Said it was a check, must be wary of Superpower, though. Moltres: Not only does rock slide sodomize it, but Iron Head 2hkos after Rocks, too. (Not a counter/check)

    @Spammability, unless they one run of like 3 pokemon, Durant can spam STABs decently, especially with hazards. It does requier more prediction than Moltres does, agreed. However, Moltres has many more flaws. 4x weakness to rocks, slower, worse defensive typing, and general horrid survivability when not running bulk+roost.

    @Spinners, what? Here's what I said
    I never said anything about Hitmonchan always spinning, nor Kabutops being the best spinner. I said foresight is a 50/50 and if you predict right you still lose momentum, while Kabutops is a 50/50 with spin or attack and then it's always forced out/killed. Read before responding. (Yes, I'm repeating myself now, because you didn't read well.)

    To TL;DR all of my opinions / arguements, Moltres is fine in LU. Its weakness to rocks and hit-n-run techniques don't mix well. This basically makes it a one and (usually) done powerhouse, assuming it's Specs / LO and you even get one hit off.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  25. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    In short, you horribly overrate Stealth Rocks being off the field for Moltres to be able to come in at full health without severe compromises to your team during play and severely underrate the handicap of Moltres' lower speed when an entire team has to compensate for it to get it in, just to be forced back out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  26. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    @Finch my post was aimed at Cloverleaf not you, you silly goose!

    And Steelix, Qwilfish + Poliwrath are all good checks, resisting 3/4 of a pokemons moves, including it's stab moves makes it a good check imo (which is why I listed Steelix as a good check), as the pressure to predict correctly is much higher for your opponent than you. Moltres can also come in on Superpower/X-Scissor/Iron Head and avoid the 2HKO, obviously it relies on rocks not being up, but even if that's 50% of the time as some claim, that's still decent. Dusclops is a good Check too.

    @Clover

    Yes the pokemon you listed can come in on a Specs Hurricane, but the beauty of Moltres is that it doesn't have to be choice locked to do it's job, if you're running the Life Orb set then we can get rid of Aggron, Rhydon, Mgneton, Steelix, Rotom, Cryogonal, Omastar, leaving you with Just Lanturn + Slowking, which have already been covered, and neither are particularly reliable, and if you want to run max Sp Def on either of them then you can no longer Check Entei. And lol when did I claim Specs was the best set in the tier? if you'd read my posts you'd know I think Life Orb is the best. Regirock + Munchlax have already been mentioned as good checks but are lower tier pokes who shouldn't have to used in a higher tier to check 1 pokemon, especially when they don't function well in said tier. And I don't know how Druddigon forces you out on the roost, because offensive dies to Hurricane and Defensive can probably barely 2HKO with Dragon Claw

    Hitmonchan is not a waste of a teamslot outside of spinning, it is still a reliable check to many special attackers and priority Mach Punch is always useful.

    Your opponent may be dedicated to keeping rocks on your side of the field if he sees you have a Moltres, difference is he hasn't gone into teambuilding with the goal of keeping rocks on the field in mind (unless Hazard stack HO) whereas the Moltres user will have prepared for spinning at any cost in every single game. And Durant can literally never come in for free either, it gets 2HKO'd by most Physcial attacks and OHKO's by basically every Special Attack in existence, whereas Moltres can come in on Grass, Bug + Ground attacks for free, and most fighting types too.

    I never claimed Durant was weak lol, I just said you can't spam his attacks as freely as you can Moltres'.

    If you're running Moltres on your team you are going to dedicate teambuilding resources to getting the Spin off, moreso than your opponent is going to have his team dedicated to you not getting the spin off (again unless Hazard Stack) so the odds are in your favour to get the spin off since you have put more resources into it in teambuilding. But these resources aren't just useless pokemon outside of Spinning, i've already stated why Hitmonchan is useful outside of spinning, and Kabu is useful as an SD Sweeper, and as an Entei Check. And I assure you supporting a pokemon that's nearly guaranteed a kill every turn, regardless of opposing team, is well worth it.
     
  27. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    Why have I seen so many people claim durant 2hkos poliwrath with superpower? I'm clearly missing the part where you have a choice band and a white herb, my bad. Also, calling foresight chan horrible is one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. I mean, I've made my points, and Im not trying to add anything more or continue responding to finch because lets be honest who wants to hear finch's dumbass posts that are basically just calling people out? But, foresight chan is most definitely not a bad pokemon, and a better argument for durant would be that it 2hkos poliwrath with thunder fang because thunder fang is, indeed, the best move.
     
  28. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I havn't read the most recent stuff yet... but LU probably has the best ghosts besides ubers of any tier. Spiritomb, Mismagius, Rotom-n, Dusclops. Also for all you saying it is so easy to spin in LU, on stall teams Dusclops has insane defenses, which lets Moltres be checkable because rocks stay up. Also, Regirock is viable... I have used it with success para flinch + rocks is a very good set. Also, please don't compare Tornadus-T to Moltres... Tornadus-T has Regenerator to mitigate it's SR weakness, and OU has Politoed to make Hurricane 100% accuracy.

    @Afro Smash: You do realize hone claws Durant destroys those pokemon though right... besides qwilfish with thunder wave.

    Also a suspect pokemon IMO is something that does work without any support at all. Moltres certainly needs support to be its most effective.

    Also, Texas is not saying Foresight Chan is a bad pokemon, he is saying it is useless outside of spinning, which is true. If you have mach punch then you have two fighting moves which is terrible coverage...
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  29. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    You are taking that out of context a little bit. He said it was bad because it does not do anything else other than Spin. It fills only one role and that is it. It is not punching holes like other Fightings do, it is not tanking hits, etc. It fills one role and that role only. It does well at spinning, but just spinning at that.

    It also 2HKOs Poliwrath with Superpower, which it needs more than Thunder Fang so it can hit the Steels that would otherwise be a problem to it.

    So shunning a person is how you respond when you simply try to make someone look bad (he was not calling anyone out, he was creating a counterargument)? That works well in a debate.
     
  30. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Lol what? Poliwrath doesn't have Intimidate, that's Qwilfish. Foresight Hitmonchan IS a terrible Pokemon. You have zero offensive presence. You waste two moveslots between Rapid Spin and Foresight. You either choose between having Drain Punch and Mach Punch, and no coverage; having no recovery; or being a terrible check to Dark mons. Foresight Hitmonchan is a great spinner, and that is its only role.


    I'm not going to continue this particular line of dialogue because you've made your points and I've made mine and anything further would be circuitous. So I'll summarize my arguments against a Moltres ban below.

    1. Stealth Rock weakness. Its an inarguable crippling factor to Moltres whether you claim you can spin every time or not. It limits its ability to come into play. It prevents it from switching in on resisted attacks. It cuts its health in half when Moltres does come in.

    2. Extreme dependence on team support, specifically Rapid Spin. You are forced you build a team around keeping rocks off in order to use Moltres effectively. This severely compromises your ability to deal damage to your opponent and forces you to suffer consistent pressure in order to clear the field for Moltres.

    3. LU is the best tier for spinners, but spinning still isn't easy. Kabutops is the best spinner to pair with Moltres, no argument. If Kabutops fails to KO the spinblocker either on the switch or at +2 it will be forced out and you continue to take damage from your opponent. Bulky Rotom is still able to spinblock +2 Kabutops. Even if Kabutops manages to kill the spinblocker, it will subsequently be forced out or KOd by its opponent. Kabutops is not easy to switch in. It takes SR damage when it comes in, as well as a hit to come in the majority of the time. Being able to be in a position to spin twice is very difficult to do without losing your Kabutops or without having effectively lost the game. With respect to Foresight Hitmonchan, it is a competent spinner but also a terrible partner for Moltres, which loves offensive momentum, and a terrible Pokemon in general, lacking any offensive momentum. Furthermore, it automatically loses to the rare team with double ghost types (Rotom/Maggy, Golurk/Rotom, et al).

    4. Moltres' speed. 90 is a nice speed tier, it is true. The reality is that there are a plethora of Pokemon that can come in on a double switch, after a kill, or on (say) a Lanturn Volt Switch and force out Moltres at threat of an OHKO. For a Pokemon such as Moltres that is so limited in its ability to switch in, being forced out by a large portion of the tier is crippling. In the best case scenario where Moltres get's a KO every time its in play, it will still struggle to manage more than two kills in a game due to it being forced out on the free switch given by this scenario.

    5. It does actually have checks. Regirock and Munchlax have been recognized as counters. I don't particularly like them so I won't discuss them. Lanturn, however, is capable of switching into Moltres with SR up and taking any attack from LO Moltres without being 2HKOd (Protect required if predicted HP Grass). It proceeds to cripple Moltres with any of Scald, Volt Switch or Thunder Wave. Slowking similarly heavily checks Moltres, requiring Moltres to predict the switch in and successfully hit two Hurricanes in a row, potentially missing the 2HKO even after SR against the most specially defensive build. Slowking as well carries Slack Off and Regenerator, allowing it to attempt to check Moltres multiple times over the course of a game and crippling it with Scald or Thunder Wave. Against teams with these Pokemon the Moltres user is hamstrung by a need to not only remove rocks but to also weaken the 4 mentioned Pokemon before it can attempt to destroy an opponent

    6. Moltres, particularly LO Moltres is heavily susceptible to residual damage. With Stealth Rock stripping half its health and Life Orb taking off 10% each time Moltres dies fast. This is the HP range where revenge killing becomes relevant as Moltres will be dying to common priority bar Mach Punch in the 30-50% HP range. Several Pokemon, including Druddigon, Entei, Feraligatr and Kabutops are capable of preventing Moltres from being successful at this range. If Moltres, specifically LO Moltres decides to Roost, it allows a check (i.e. Slowking, or Aerodactyl on offensive teams) or a counter (i.e. Lanturn) to come in for free and force it out, squandering the opportunity created for Moltres to come in on its limited switch in opportunities.

    7. Accuracy. Not a major factor against its broken potential, but a notable one. Moltres has major problems with hitting its attacks consistently. This causes it to miss kills it looked to get and to fail to get past checks with Hurricanes. This contributes in no small way to Moltres continuously being forced out or failing to do something useful in a match. There are games where the RNG does not play a factor, and in those games Moltres can be devastating, but will still fall short due to its other shortcomings.


    I do firmly believe that Moltres is an excellent Pokemon in each 5th gen tier it resides in. But I also firmly believe it has significant, crippling flaws that prevent from being broken in these tiers.
     
  31. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    I wasnt hating on your post, I was just saying that you cant 2hko with superpower because superpower grants -1 attack, not because of intimidate...
     
  32. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I like how you have no legitimate response to Texas' completely valid points. Moltres is not broken. It is strong, it has blatant flaws, which have been stated.
     
  33. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    Maybe because the whole post wasnt directed at me, rather only the part where I said superpower didnt KO. In fact, I didnt even read what he said because I'm just here to make my point, not disprove others. Sorry if that offends you, maybe you should write a slam rap about how gay I am :]
     
    Proof likes this.
  34. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    But, if you make a point and fail to disprove opposing points, while your own point gets disproved, what is the point(of you posting)? (Hue)
    Either you are claiming Moltres is broken and backing it up, or there isn't much point. Also, no need to directly insult users (or reference insulting things.) Get the point? n_n


    Finally,@laurel, we were comparing it to Tornadus-I (not T) who was LU for a stint. If you read anyone bar Texas' posts you might know.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2013
  35. Whatzin

    Whatzin New Member

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    OH, so Moltres is broken now is it? Let's take a look at it :

    -50% from SR, and idc what people say about "LU being OP for rapid spinning, with spinblockers being foresighted" and what not. I've seen plenty of people running dual spin blockers, playing mind games with spinners, and taking good care of demolishing them. If it's so "easy" to keep SR of the field, then why do all decent players bother with it in the first place?

    -It's best, "staple", moves 'Fire Blast and Hurricane', or rather Hurrimiss and Miss Blast, are not reliable. I know I'm going to get a lot of shit for dissing the accuracy, and people are going to accuse me of basing this on 'hax', but really, anyone that plays seriously knows that low acc moves make a HUGE difference. Thank you very much, Focus Miss, for NOT Hitting my TTar 8 times in a row!

    -Easily Revenge killed. Seriously, what can't revenge kill it? All the main scarfers, like Krookodile and Galvantula,Rotom, etc, ohko it easily. CB Entei Espeed ohkos it after SR easily, and you do NOT want to take a life orb Aqua jet from Feraligatr. SR will be up MOST of the time, and even then, denting it or revenge killing it isn't something miraculous. This is where some people are going to start blabbing "you gotta sack something, there's no gurantee its death, blah blah blah". Which comes back to my saying that SR = dead bird. Slowking and Lanturn are quite common, and both can take Moltres on. Lanturn laughs at Hurrimiss and Firemiss even if they hit, and HP-grass aint gonna do much. Lanturn stronf.

    What I seriously find funny is the people saying that "Lilligant with sash HP Rock is uncommon, and having your sash intact is very unlikely" and then saying that Moltres users will never have SR set up around their team. lol

    I have used moltres for research purposes, but being so weak to SR, it's never appealed to me much. I've laddered on LU and faced several, none of which have done miracles (unless you count miraculously dying without so much as scratching a poke, protres)

    Incase it isn't blatantly obvious, I vote no to banning Moltres.
     
  36. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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  37. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I should stay out of Suspects there's always something that people say that bugs me so much :(

    1. Foresight Chan can't spin on Shedinja, ever. tbh I use Shedinja in some teams purely for this purpose.

    2. Offensive Foresight Chan, @ Fight Plate, Drain punch/mach punch/foresight/rapid spin is not a bad offensive Pokemon, it has enough Special Bulk naturally to do well against a multitude of things, beating quite a lot of SRers and having the offensive capabilities to dent any non-resist in the tier, beyond like Tangrowth.

    3. Just because someone doesn't reply to a post doesn't mean they didn't acknowledge it or can't find an answer to the points raised.

    4. You can't just ignore accuracy completely, it isn't an end-all solution that will allow you to say that Moltres is 100% not broken because it has a chance to miss its STAB's but it is always present.

    5.
    Finally someone else who thinks the same thing as me and what I said yesterday(?)
    #trendsetter y/y/y/y/y

    6. Slightly confused about some of the Durant and it's counters discussion, I understand the basic comparison, but not the continuation.

    7. For Foresight Chan, it is in no way a 50/50 about spinning/foresighting, lol, I don't know if you've ever used it to a large extent just from the way you worded that.
    In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned the way to use foresight chan so if you want to read that I would recommend it, to summarise that post, there's nothing wrong or bad about double foresighting. As well as the majority of ghosts in LU struggle to seriously hurt Hitmonchan, especially if it's a bulky set, but even if it isn't the point remains.

    All spinblockers in LU that are relevant:
    Spiritomb, Rotom, Mismagius, Misdreavus, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Shedinja. There is also things like Frillish but it can be ignored, imo.

    Out of the main ones listed, the most threatening thing is a LO or Specs Shadow Ball from Rotom or Mismagius, or a WoW from the others - depending on the set. in return Foresight Chan spins on all of them barring Shedinja, and Drain Punch hurts all but Misdreavus, Dusclops and Dusknoir anyway.

    But still. Don't disregard Foresight Chan just because its main intention is spinning!




    I suppose I should actually say something about Moltres as most of the above wasn't about it lol.


    I still personally think it's broken, the ability to break almost the entire tier and then somewith a nice speed stat is pretty ridiculous, regardless of weaknesses and accuracy issues. (I realise this contrasts with my accuracy statement above but who cares, really.) Of course Moltres has flaws, but they are all situational, and not a giant flaw, with all of its stats being either average or above average.

    To put above simply;

    Flaws are 100% situational, if rocks are up and you miss Moltres is completely useless, but without rocks and you hit most attacks Moltres can break teams.
     
  38. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Nah Moltres isn't broken. Water and Electric types are common in the tier, and true many can't switch in but once they're they can all usually force Moltres out. And lol at the people claiming it can just spam Hurricane without worry. You know that's BS. After Stealth Rock it's easy pickings. And Foresight Hitmonchan is dead weight when it's not spinning - I know, I've used it. There are loads of Pokémon who can easily beat it one on one even without Rocks - Galvantula, Manectric, Slowking, Lanturn, Archeops, Rotom-N, Scarf Rotom-C, Band Druddigon...

    And also: we've had Hurricane Moltres for nearly a year. Why is everyone screaming broken now?

    Ah...that's why. Should've known...
     
  39. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    [​IMG]
    That's from the summer of 2012...

    http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...scussion-Moltres&p=87342&viewfull=1#post87342

    http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...ussion-Moltres&p=136089&viewfull=1#post136089
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2014
  40. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Link is really old. You said "they can't switch in" then you said "once they're in" .... so are you saying you just have to let something die every time it comes in? Foresight hitmonchan is NOT dead weight after it spins, it still packs a hell of a punch (no pun intended). Yes, moltres can spam hurricane without worry, what is there to stop it from doing so?

    Galvantula-dies to anything
    manectric-dies to fire blast blast/hurricane does a huge chunk
    Slowking- this can sometimes take 2 hurricanes, but it can't ohko and it isn't always going to take 2.
    lanturn- this is somewhat of a counter, SE stab and it can take 2 hits, but without any recovery, and the fact that it's 3hko'd, it's more deadweight than hitmonchan
    archeops- wat
    rotom-N- dies to fire blast/hurricane hurts a lot
    rotom-c- dies to both hurricane/fire blast
    drudd- 2 hurricanes cleans it up, even if max hp max SpD

    The fact is, only lanturn and munchlax can switch in and munchlax doesn't cut it in LU, and lanturn lacks reliable recovery. Moltres IS broken, if a pokemon forces you to run 1 pokemon just to stop it, then it's broken. rocks will not always be up, and even if they are up, you're still forced to sack something if you don't have lanturn
     
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