Well I had an idea and wanted to discuss it with people to think stuff through Spoiler (20:31:47) +Hannah: We should (20:31:50) +Hannah: have a few days (20:31:55) +Hannah: where the main picked themes aren't used (20:32:08) +Hannah: Like FF, FE, Elements and other stuff like that (20:32:08) +Hannah: give the newer themes some time (20:32:08) Human Destroyer: People won't like it (20:32:08) JhenMohran: that kakuna is strategy based to win (20:32:16) +Hannah: You know, people won't like it because they're lazy (20:32:23) Human Destroyer: Exactly (20:32:23) +Hannah: The same reason when those themes started out (20:32:30) Human Destroyer: Learning a new theme takes effort (20:32:35) JhenMohran: needs more fruit (20:32:35) Human Destroyer: that most people aren't willing to use (20:32:42) Human Destroyer: exception: nonpeak themes (20:32:50) Human Destroyer: I think all of those get played a decent amount (20:32:52) +Hannah: Well, having only 4-5 themes consistently be used (20:32:55) Human Destroyer: even the newer ones (20:33:00) +Hannah: despite having loads of tehemes (20:33:10) +Hannah: is a bit off putting for theme makers (20:33:27) +Hannah: (not me but, most of the themes end up being overshadowed, untested, and dumped) (20:33:34) JhenMohran: everyone would then play the next largest ones like clanwar and castle then (20:33:48) +Hannah: Well then it would shift (20:33:51) Human Destroyer: The only themes I would say are really not played (20:33:52) +Hannah: if it was tiered by usage (20:33:53) Human Destroyer: are Survivors (20:33:54) +Hannah: A - B (20:34:01) +Hannah: and C (20:34:06) +Hannah: it'd be B - C instead (20:34:07) Human Destroyer: Chrono Trigger if that's still enabled (20:34:12) +Hannah: letting some of the deader themes get used (20:34:23) JhenMohran: chrono is still up (20:34:24) Human Destroyer: beast's themes (20:34:26) Human Destroyer: marvel (20:34:31) +Hannah: y (20:34:34) Human Destroyer: and geass (20:34:52) +Hannah: Those themes are rarely used, and people are still transitioning them by playing (20:35:03) +Hannah: because the only people who would run those themes (20:35:05) +Hannah: are the creators themselves (20:35:07) Human Destroyer: well the simple solution is (20:35:13) Human Destroyer: you have the ability to ninja-start games (20:35:14) Human Destroyer: use it (20:35:17) +Hannah: because if you have FE, FF, geass, Space invaders, Default (20:35:22) +Hannah: Really.. ?? (20:35:22) Human Destroyer: just don't /ab/use it (20:35:36) Twinkies left the channel. (20:35:37) JhenMohran: TOOMESP (20:35:45) +Hannah: Your solution to getting more themes to be used.. is ninjaing the picks (20:35:46) +Hannah: o-k (20:35:55) Human Destroyer: well it makes sense when you think about it (20:35:58) JhenMohran: well themes like DN and DBZ did well (20:36:01) JhenMohran: they are quite new (20:36:01) Human Destroyer: if you start the theme and enough people are around (20:36:03) Human Destroyer: people will play it (20:36:07) +Hannah: It only works if you're the actual creator (20:36:16) +Hannah: or if you really like that theme as a single person (20:36:33) +Hannah: It's not that we're disabling the more known themes permanently, just giving it shifts every other day (20:36:50) Human Destroyer: I remember considering pitching a similar idea once (20:36:57) Human Destroyer: but I figured the community feedback would be startlingly bad (20:37:05) Human Destroyer: so I decided not to (20:37:32) +Hannah: If people quit over not being able to play FF and FE (20:37:33) +Hannah: then lol (20:37:41) Human Destroyer: they might not play for the day (20:37:50) Hopkirk joined the channel. (20:37:56) Human Destroyer: which might lead to a dead channel (20:38:05) +Hannah: That is a really bad way to put it (20:38:11) +Hannah: but I'll make a thread about it on Mafia (20:38:25) Human Destroyer: If you want (20:38:26) JhenMohran: alrighty (20:38:28) +Hannah: Just see #Mafia right now (20:38:31) +Hannah: and how alive it is (20:38:33) Human Destroyer: I still think it's a bad idea (20:38:35) +Hannah: blossoming with tons of users (20:38:39) Hopkirk: what's the idea? (20:38:51) Human Destroyer: restricting certain themes each day (20:38:59) Human Destroyer: so like one day you can't start ff or fe (20:39:18) Human Destroyer: another you can't start elements and caterpie (20:39:24) Human Destroyer: etc. (20:39:50) Human Destroyer: the idea is to increase the usage of less-played themes (20:40:31) Hopkirk: but isn't that due to not being popular (20:40:37) Human Destroyer: yes (20:40:50) Human Destroyer: the theory is that if you temporarily remove popular themes, less popular themes will be played (20:41:28) Human Destroyer: I a) don't think it'll work as intended, and b) have a terrible backlash among the community Discussion from Victory Road with a few MAs there, feel free to comment on what you guys think. There are a few pros and cons I can think of at the moment so I'll list them down. PROS 1. More variety within themes, playing lesser used themes for people to get used to 2. Balancing other themes that don't get to get tested due to lack of usage (since some themes only get started when the authors try to "ninja" 3. More attention towards Theme review subforums as well as new potential themes to be used 4. Theme makers get "credited" by having their themes being used more and not overshadowed CONS 1. Mafia players might not like the idea and boycott mafia or something 2. Channel activity might die due to players not wanting to try less known themes 3. Possible Theme Bashing 4. More questions from users "why is x not startable?" It's a pretty mixed bag so I'm not sure where to start at. It's just that most of the days I see a few teams consistently being used and voted for while leaving a lot of dead themes overshadowed. Such themes as Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem, Kirby, Space Invaders, and stuff like that. What I propose is keeping the regular vote system on, where you can't vote or start a theme recently played while disabling some of the highly used themes for a few hours to give attention to other themes. Including them in the votes and such.
It's true that this will affect Mafia somewhat; as it is now, I feel that the Cons are much heavier than the Pros. In my opinion, some Mafians do not enjoy playing new themes, such as, as you said, Survivor; truth be told, I've never seen or played a game of Survivor, like, ever. When I check /playedgames (often), it is clear that FF, FE and the like are played repetitively. Not only that, but the number of players playing those games are significantly more than games that hide away in the corners like Space and such. Indeed, Channel Activity, somehow or other, will die because of the fact that their favorite themes cannot be played. The idea and intention is great, in my opinion, but the way it's being executed, not so much. I mean, I think it's a great idea, but to disable some crowd-favorite themes is a bit harsh...? My idea will need coding, and that's easier said than done, but here goes. There could be a tag placed on the 'most-liked' themes, and then maybe every 5/10 games only one of these games can be started. Maybe not so great an idea. Also, Hannah, can you define "some hours"? Peak hours or not really does matter in this case, I assume you mean Peak hours. During Peak hours (assuming 35 players), the cons aren't much of a problem, but the number of players joining initially may drop to 20-25. After a few days, however, I think that more players will slowly warm up to the idea of underrated themes and understand that some underrated themes are good themes, and the numbers of players joining should rise to 30 or so. This is just my opinion on the matter. I hope somehow this idea will go through.
I'd rather have a way to encourage the lesser-known themes than to disencourage the most popular themes from being started. I once suggested a "Featured Theme" idea, where not-so-popular themes would get in a poll every week and the winner would get highlighted at Mafia Channel to encourage players to try it more often. That probably is not enough in the long term, but at least it's an idea that helps some themes without hurting the others. I'm against the idea of temp-blocking some themes only for being popular. They are popular for a reason, so it's up to the other themes to keep up to that. Of course, the theme needs to be started to have a chance, so the author will probably need to ninja starttheme a few times, but if the theme is good enough it will eventually get the deserved attention. Also, some may have noticed that the mafia theme being played affects momentum for the channel. Try starting a really obscure theme when the channel is at 30 players per game and you will see it drop to 25. Try it again and it will drop to 20. Then most likely it won't go back to 30 for at least a few hours. Of course, it also depends of the time, but I already saw a single theme create a record peak-time in a time it doesn't usually get it (AKA Rotom made games go from 20 players to 43 in less than 1 hour of its first day).
I have to agree with my mafia senpais, it wouldn't make any favour to the channel. Punishing what works to make what doesn't work flourish will only get you 2 things that won't work. Just like Rice says it's better to encourage people to try new themes than preventing popular games from being played. Also I like the idea of a "Featured Theme", maybe it could be like the Tour Event of the Day in the Tournaments Channel? I would support that idea. I don't know exactly how to implement it but I think it's worth giving a try.
I said that idea so many times, forgot who I told it to but first, I think you should get more QCs so we can have more themes turned in and tested.
Yeah, I totally agree with this post. Encouraging is better than discouraging (despite what I had said earlier <_<) and yes, I've seen Mafia die several times because of a not-so-loved theme. Even if Mafia doesn't die, it will die due to a lot of Mafia bans - there will, for sure, be themebashers. "OMG this theme is so terrible!" "wow this theme sucks, lol..." etc. It's not very nice, as a themecreator, to have your theme being bashed on. It makes the themecreator feel extremely awkward and such. Rice's "Featured Theme" think is very plausible, similarly, maybe a "Theme of the Week" idea might be cool. Someone could write a short and sweet about the nice things about this theme that makes this theme fun and stuff, and maybe put in the topic of Mafia so that people are like, "Oh hey, this theme is cool, maybe I should try it out!"
We discussed this awhile back, long before I was even sMA. It was more of a joke ("Lets disable the top 6 themes and watch everyone panic"). If you want less popular themes to get started, then you can start them yourself. There might be a reason why people don't like particular themes... too confusing, too chaotic, too unbalanced, etc. If every theme was top notch, we wouldn't have this problem. There is a clear inequality between various themes, and well... that's just life.
The thing is most of the themes were too unbalanced and chaotic because people would prefer playing the known themes rather than learning or developing new ones. Having to reply on "ninjaing" is a pretty bad solution to this. You need to have a userbase that's willing to make due with the theme and not just kite through it. Also how does the Featured theme go?
If we are trying something like "Feature theme of the Day" i think we can know what themes we have in hand: Later, i think we can do a sort of classification of the themes (i'm not counting non-peak themes because used only in dead hours: Dethy, Lyncher, Oracle, Trust, Vengeful) I tried of be impartial, but if someone thinks we can upgrade or downgrade some theme, just give opinions, its not a definitive list :3 I was a bit unsure about the AC, Geass, HP, KH and Marvel place, but i opted to place them in LU. So i think the UU and specially the NU themes are candidates to make for feature themes.
Although I agree that it's quite common to see themes being ignored (regardless of quality) because players would rather start the ones they like more, some people can remember that a some point the started themes went like FF>Zelda>Myth>SSBB>Elements>FF again (themes that existed since very early in the channel), but then themes like Kirby, FiM and FE managed to enter that cycle, and still now we see some themes managing to do so (I barely had any effort to ninja-starttheme Trainers). About Featured Theme, it could even be made without any coding. Just have a poll run for some days and the theme that wins gets a "Try Theme X blablabla" message in #Mafia's topic. If we want something more visible, it wouldn't be hard to code it so a message is broadcast to the channel featuring a theme and explaining its qualities when a game ends.
And to link Theme of the Week with the mafia megaguide we could have people say why they like that theme as well as a guide to go with it! Yeah I think Theme of the Week or some other time frame could work really well for doing what everyone here wants as pushing some of these lesser known themes. Like theme summaries used to put in "nice quirks of the theme" but you only see them AFTER starting the theme. Here with a potentially pushed theme we can have this as a reason to start the themes in the first place!
I'm not in favor of any preventive measures in the ability to start themes. Giving more publicity to less-started themes is probably the way to do it. Rice's theme is good in theory but the problem is I don't think many people read the topic in the server. A better place to put the message might be when said featured theme is started a link to the featured theme thread is placed. About actually getting themes to be more popular - I will say that it's certainly possible for new themes to get boosts in popularity and be on an (almost) equal playing field with the 'classics' like FF/FE, as pointed out in Rice's post. Sometimes you can't help that some themes have much popular and recognizable figures though (FF, Zelda, Myth) compared to things like Geass and AC (which imo can easily get to being on par with the most popular themes). Neat themes with clear helps don't hurt either (this is one of the reasons why I like Elements although the actual concept doesn't seem like a really popular one, kudos to Master for that)
If the topic is not enough, it's simple to code it so something like "This week's Featured Theme: Cellphones, a theme where smartphones must try to defeat the unbreakeable Nokia phone (Try it!)" message is displayed whenever a mafia game ends (and if said theme was not started recently).
If the featured theme was a link, do you think most people would click it? I wouldn't, because I am too lazy. That is probably the case for most people also.
I want to do the one where we have theme of the week! Im good with interviews :) Mafia players are decreasing already I dont think we should the popular themes and make it worst imo
I like this idea, not just because I did an unofficial one (and interviewed you of course haha) but that we need a separate team (an Editorial Staff?) aside from the QCs, so that way this can be more of a, per se, community run place. Nominations can be sent to them, and why they think why.
Featured Theme is now coded. Every set time interval (currently at 2 hours) a message will be broadcast telling players of a theme they can try out. For now, the sMAs will decide what theme goes on there to gauge reactions to the system. Once everything is integrated into standard play and the feature seems to be moderately successful, then we will open it up for the community to vote on different themes to feature (I've already coded the part for that as well). Example of what it will be: (23:32:36) *************************************************************************************** (23:32:36) ±Murkrow: Looking for a theme to play? Try out the Featured Theme: Vengeful (23:32:36) ±Murkrow: Click here to vote for the next Featured Theme! (23:32:36) *************************************************************************************** Clicking "Vengeful" brings you to the theme's thread, using "threadlink" as defined by the theme. This way, players can leave feedback and suggestions easier. Clicking "here" would bring you to the voting page to cast your votes for the next featured theme, but in this example just links to google. I might add something that sends another message after a "Featured Theme" is played with like: (23:32:36) ±Murkrow: Comments and Suggestions about the theme you just played? Click [here] to let the author know!
Oh, cool. I think 1 hour would be a better interval. Also, a short description to highlight some of the theme's interesting points could help bringing more attention to the theme.
Good idea, again, this will take some testing to iron out where it needs to be improved and not It also finally gives another use to "threadlink" too, which is always good. So: 1. Shorten Interval 2. Optional string to put details about the theme Also, first "official use": (01:44:27) *************************************************************************************** (01:44:27) Times Up! : (01:44:27) ±Prophet: Soldier duFLOCKArant was banished from the village! (01:44:27) ±Game: The Village (Veteran Padgett, Swimmer-F Rhydon and Setsuna.F.Seiei) wins! (01:44:27) *************************************************************************************** (01:44:27) *************************************************************************************** (01:44:27) ±Murkrow: Looking for a theme to play? Try out the Featured Theme: Geass (01:44:27) *************************************************************************************** (01:44:28) Swimmer-F Rhydon: lol (01:44:32) Swimmer-F Rhydon: boom (01:44:32) Veteran Padgett: that was dumb (01:44:33) *************************************************************************************** (01:44:33) ±Game: Setsuna.F.Seiei started a game with theme Geass (Code Geass)! (01:44:33) ±Game: Type /Join to enter the game! (01:44:33) ***************************************************************************************
I think 2 hours is fine, unless you make it a dynamic interval (2 hours for dead periods, 0.5-1 hours for high activity). During the dead periods, there's little activity for a good 2-3 hours and seeing a message repeated like that would kinda suck :D
I think it should be, instead of time, according to the number of games played before a new one starts. Like, in small games, ~10 games they'll pop up, then in big games, every 8 or so? Idk if that can be coded but with the appropriate numbers, I think it would work better.
Doing it by number of games isn't a bad idea tbh. Saves on keeping track of what's peak/non-peak too.
It only broadcasts after a game is completed somehow, for now... Or using /forcefeature (Was originally going to be testing script, but then decided it might be helpful if we could use in the live version). Not sure if it broadcasts if a game fails to start though, I don't think it does.