"Roles able to win alone or not" discussion

Discussion in 'Mafia' started by Stocke, Aug 1, 2013.

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  1. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    Fuzzy hijack:
    These posts were split from the Caterpie theme thread in order to better discuss a possible problem. That problem is, "Should every Mafia role be able to win alone?"

    Without further ado, here was the start of the discussion
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    Kakuna really needs a better way to win on its own and not just pray for village to be a bunch of morons who don't know anything about how to deal with the -2 votes. If Weedle and Beedrill die Kakunas can hope for a tie at best, an assured loss otherwise. I suggest that at n4 or so they get an /evolve Self command that makes them Beedrills. Or maybe they can evolve if a Beedrill is lynched instead. But there have been too many times that I've seen kakunas left alone unable to do anything at all.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 4, 2013
  2. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I strongly disagree with the argument that any role with a team, specially on the mafia side, needs a way to win by itself, since that makes it seems as if Mafia is a Free For All game instead of a game that requires teamwork.

    Kakuna, like other roles in the same situation, only spawn after a few of their teammates are in the game, and it has a power strong enough to support their teammates without making its team obvious. If a Kakuna is by itself at the end of the game, then that's more of sign the team not playing well enough.
    You say you saw many situations where Kakuna was alone, unable to win by itself, but then again, most of those times those players could have saved their teammate with their vote or simply by tricking the village, yet they let them die.

    In other words, people like to say Mafia is a game of strategy. The main component for any strategy game is long-term planning, so if a Kakuna is alone at the end of the game, then Weedle's Family team's strategy failed.
     
  3. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Or they all got haxed and your -2 vote couldn't do crap to save them when a boatload of people already voted
    Also, crossfire.
     
  4. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    Though ninja'd by Fuzzy who points pretty much the same thing.
     
  5. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    On the contrary, mafia should rely on teamwork more than village. After all, that's the reason they get team-reveal and less members.

    Sure, there are lots of possible situations that could lead to Kakuna being alone. But still, the only reason all roles need a way to win by themselves would be if the game is Free-For-All. Other than that, the mere fact of having a team is what makes up for that, which is the exact same reason a single villager is unable to win by itself, and the whole point of Mafia Game.
    Arguing that a role that already have a team is required to have a way to win alone is only a valid argument if you consider mafia is not strategy-based.
     
  6. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    The thing is most Mafia themes (those who follow the default formula) go this way: village gets strength in numbers to vote out mafias and mafias get kills/poisons to reduce that strength until they win. The only exception to that is kuja roles, and when that happens village is sure to get a vigilante as a counter.

    But what we have here is a mafia role that can easily be left without any methods to win for reasons that they are totally unable to prevent no matter the amount of strategy. I find that totally unfair, and I ask for it to be fixed. If you follow your own reasoning, saying that mafia is strategy based, then you should agree that there shouldn't be any situation where strategy can't stop luck and then strategy becomes an impossible option just like this one.
     
  7. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I actually don't think Mafia is strategy-based, but that's what the standard the QC staff insists to hold on, so I'm just following that.
    Also, from a strategy-based point of view, I find the situations where a side plays ridiculously bad but still wins due to having a role that can win by itself way worse than having a role unable to win by itself because it's team is decimated. Those situations are what actually waste an entire game's plan.

    It's not going to be fixed because it's not broken. Mafia is a game of social deduction, so it's through player's interaction that you can prevent undesirable outcomes. Unless you think someone is unable to meatshield, fake claim, play silently or annoyingly, mislead the other players and do other tricks just because they got the Kakuna role.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  8. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    If you don't believe on it don't use it as an argument against me. Even more when that argument actually favors my point of view, that being that luck shouldn't completely destroy strategy and leave a role totally useless.

    If we consider the rest of the players half competent (enough to know that kakuna has a -2 and able to use basic logic) then there's no amount of strategy or luck in the world that can make Kakuna win since that deduction that you mention destroys Kakuna in a second. Village would need to be totally stupid to not find kakuna and let him win.

    In any case, since it's obvious that you won't yield I'll ask QC members their opinion about the matter, since I know I'm not the only person who thinks that Kakuna alone should have a way to win. If they decide that I'm wrong then I'll drop the issue and deal with it.
     
  9. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    If that's the standard being set for Mafia themes, I have no option but to follow regardless of what I believe if I want my theme in.
    Also, it doesn't favor your argument because the assumption that strategy and luck can't co-exist is simply wrong. A vital point to strategy is planning in a way that you can adjust it to unexpected situations, as it oftens happen in games like chess (note: this is not an implication that chess is luck-based, I'm specifically referring to the unexpected part here).
    It would be a thing if any small chance-based occurence could entirely break all games, but that's not the case here.

    Only because you assume the half-competent players are all against Kakuna. Caterpie has been in the server for a long time, with all kinds of players having played it, yet Kakuna is still able to win when working well with their team.

    Sure, go ahead. But in case they request Kakuna have a way to win alone, then I will request absolutely all roles in Mafia have so too. There's no logic to applying that restriction to a role while Villagers are unable to win by themselves too.
     
  10. Roild

    Roild Member

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    I'd like to point out that I can win as kakuna by claiming kills and poisons, masking my caterpie. I'd also like to point out that not having a kill/poison benefits the rest of the team. I would also like to point out that 'evolving' into a Beedril does not sound like a bad idea. :3 My two cents.
     
  11. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    I'm really against the existence of a theme completely dependent on hax in the first place, but I think Kakuna either needs a way to win on it's own (Shared poison with team every other night perhaps?) or it needs -more votes so it can actually do it's intended purpose which is to keep it's team from being lynched, -2 isn't going to do shit.
     
  12. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    Maybe for flavor's sake make beedrils able to target kakunas but the kakunas evade the beedril's kill and get converted to beedril because they get "split"
     
  13. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Hm. What if kakunas evaded Shiny Bee's DK? It would definitely help. It would work for a lot of things and people might see the usefulness of Kakuna.
     
  14. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    mm I should have responded to Stocke's PM earlier.

    but yeah, I just (personally) don't like the existence of mafia roles in general that can't win on their own. A /convert to Beedrill if it loses its partners might be a good fix to it.
     
  15. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Kakuna already evades Daykills. And recently I made Kakuna has nightkills too to reduce Venomoth spamming /kill.

    Kakuna is meant to be a support role, almost a mafia-sided empowered villager. It already can silently disrupt close votings, connect to Shiny Beedrill, make Butterfree unable to fully clean someone, fake claim both as Caterpie and Metapod and now even hold Venomoth back, and people still want it to kill/poison too?

    Just a reminder, Caterpie is a theme where no roles share their actions, and that's an important part of the theme, so the idea for sharing poison with the team is completely out of question. Having Kakuna evolve in any way into Beedrill is also out of question as the theme already have enough killers/poisoners.
     
  16. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    I've been a bit distracted by other things so I forgot about this, but there's at least 2 QC (wind and mewtwo) who think that Kakuna should be able to win alone and I've also seen complains from other people about it in the chat. I don't want to be that guy, but Kakuna needs a change.
     
  17. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    If you think Kakuna needs a change, why are you not complaining about Element's Radium? That role is in a way worse situation than Kakuna, having the same vote count but far less teammates in a theme with far more deaths. And Radium has been around like that for several months before Caterpie was even made. You could also complain about ClanWar's BGs, Hookers, Spies, Roamers and Inspectors.

    I'm only changing Kakuna if you can prove me that the role, as it is currently, is making the theme unbalanced. The "all (mafia) roles must be able to win by itself" argument in a game based on teamwork is invalid. The correct argument is "All sides must be able to win".
     
  18. The Hades

    The Hades My Wall

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    There's honestly to much killers and poisners for kakuna to be changed, kakuna is already a great support role to mafia, and the fact it can't be haxed or day killed is already good enough
     
  19. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    Kirby, I don't do that because I don't play elements much and I hardly know the roles there. But don't worry, I'm not only complaining about kakuna. I just recently complained about Near in DN too. That's what you want, don't you?

    Also it's not a matter of me having to review every theme (which I don't have to do), it's a matter of QCs themselves telling you that they feel kakuna's role is wrong. Don't target on me for that.

    And zach, guess why kakuna can't be haxed? Because it can't kill or poison, so there's nothing to hax. And so it can't win alone, which is what people are complaining about.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  20. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    All some QC did was to say they don't like roles unable to win by themselves. Unless they can also prove or argue that this makes the theme unbalanced, there's absolutely no reason to risk breaking the theme's balance for that.

    Just to emphasize: What's important is not that all roles are able to win by themselves, but that all sides are able to win. Anyone who argues the opposite clearly don't know what mafia game is about.
     
  21. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    All I say say is that MAFIAS should be able to win alone, not all roles. But apparently for you it's all black or white, everything or nothing, and think that village and mafias are the same thing, when they're not. QCs citing they don't like roles unable to win by themselves refers exactly to that, mafia roles. Ask them though, but I feel it's pretty obvious that they mean that and not "every single role should be able to win alone whether mafia or not". I called them again though, and hopefully this time we'll get somewhere.

    Also, citing Clanwar as an example of roles that can't win alone is a bad example because Clanwar is pretty much 3 village teams. The only mafias would be the Neighbour Assassin and Village Leader who, oh surprise, can win alone. Who would have thought.

    EDIT:
    P.D.:Just in case, I don't have a personal vendetta against you or your theme, and I say again, I don't want to be that guy. It's not only my own opinion that I'm voicing in this matter, and all I want is this to be resolved definetely one way or the other, no matter if it's decided that I'm wrong.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  22. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I was quite clear the first time I mentioned that:
    The 2nd time was just to add some emphasis. It doesn't change the fact that the argument is weak. Mafia game is about Sides vs Sides, not Roles vs Roles.

    If anything, ClanWar is a better example exactly because there are 3 "village" teams. Not being able to win by yourself there is much worse since not only you won't have the power, but you could easily not have the numbers to win with your team either since there's another village.
    You even said it yourself here : Village tends to get vote power, while mafia gets killing power. But in ClanWar, you can easily get to a situation where you, as a "villager", can not win with team power nor have the numbers to win.
    Does that means ClanWar is broken? No, because ClanWar shows quite well how mafia is about a side working together instead of roles winning by themselves.

    I know it's nothing personal, I know I too may sound agressive sometimes, but it's because I'm trying to be objective/assertive. I suggest we request some moderator to split this thread into a new thread about this specific "Win alone" issue then, since we are already discussing way more than only Caterpie.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2013
  23. Roild

    Roild Member

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    I'll just paste what I said elsewhere.

    I understand what [Rice's] point is and it isn't a completely bad one. Kakuna's use is quite interesting seeing as it can be distracted, can provide a pivotal role to connect the shiny beedrills (as a sacrifice or through chance), fuse into the caterpie background by claiming hax. With enough intelligence, a kakuna can win a 2v1. It would require the other people being a little silly though, so that's a negative aspect of doing it. I did post in the thread and I find the theme to be different from others, while staying mafia on it's own. I've personally used some of these 'can't win, but proper use of support' models to some of my other themes. The most impressive (imo) being Cell's bodyguard, Cell Jr.

    Being hax'd is annoying, but it's low enough for it to mostly just be who's dying, not who's killing. I personally don't even poison as weedle and kakuna allows me to roll around with many different things.

    I'd seriously recommend adding how your moves may be hax'd though. Just so people know that they shouldn't switch around. I know it's not the norm to say that, but this is a theme that highly revolves around hax. Not telling players how to play, just telling them that it may happen if they switch around. It's not really a hint to tell someone that the code makes them not share (but it is good to include). A hint would be to not switch around since they have a higher chance to be hax'd.

    I guess it comes down to what works and what doesn't -- I treat all themes with this idea/model, but also with how unique the theme is. People may dislike hax and kakuna in general, but the theme itself works and is unique enough for it to work. Now if everyone disliked the theme and found it not fun, that'd be a problem. Yet people start it and play it and find it to work. That said, people do want some motion to a betterment. As to what it could be, I'm saying a slight help enhancement. Not how they should play, just knowing what happens if they spam kills/poisons and stuff.
     
  24. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    I agree with this. Whatever we conclude from the win alone issue will probably determine the Kakuna thing too. Also thanks Roild for posting again about the matter.
     
  25. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    Perhaps we might need a kind of general model for these thins (or not? Mafia is a diverse game so going case-by-case could also prove effective provided enough logical reasoning)

    I've started playing Caterpie more and I am seeing more appreciation for Kakuna as the lack of kill forces the player to be more cunning in convincing village is clean, so yeah I think I'm actually leaning towards keeping Kakuna as is. If we're going to talk about other roles like this I'd also say keep Radium because Uranium is immune to nightkills and has a higher chance of staying around to kill the inspections Radium does. Can't really talk about roles in themes like ClanWar because I don't play those often enough.
     
  26. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    Ok, now that the thread is split, I'll explain my point regarding this. It's a long ass post that has taken me over an hour making, I hope it's at least worth reading.


    How I think mafia is, and my reasoning for it.
    Mafia as I see it is a game where a not connected majority (village) has to use their numbers to lynch the connected minority (mafia). Village has control of the lynch thanks their numerical superiority, and most of the time connect via a leader (Inspector or revealing roles like Link or Roy) who guides them in the voting phase. Lynch is the main strength of the village.

    Mafia on the other hand has kills/poison/conversions (any action that eliminates an opposing role, I will refer to this as mafia powers from now on). Mafia has to eliminate village's strength before it grows too strong to stop. That's why the leader PRs are such a priority: once they're down the village can't reliably lynch anymore. And it's the reason why once a mafia has as many members as villagers left (assuming no other mafias left either) they win the game, since the village hasn't got strength to stop the mafia anymore.

    That's the basic layout of a mafia game. What happens when we change that layout? Let's see some scenarios.

    If we add a mayor for the village suddenly we need a VCLR list because he alone changes how the game works, due to his augmented voting capabilities. Mafia can no longer autowin a game if they match their numbers against village if the Mayor is there because functionally it's like if they didn't. Mayor is a role that has more strength than other villager roles since he doesn't need a partner to win a vote. Conclusion: Village's power is in voting. Changing a role's vote from 1 makes an impact in how the game works.

    If we add a vigilante/samurai/poisoner/converter to the village, we get the same result. We've given the village something it shouldn't have normally, and that is the tool that mafia uses. Conclusion: Giving mafia powers to a villager makes him able to win alone, because that role (and as long as he's alive, his side) became like a mafia and doesn't need to vote to win anymore.

    If we add a Kuja role that decides lynches alone and therefore robs village of their strength, it becomes mandatory to give the village the tool that mafia have to counter it, a kill. Also Kuja roles get their own WinIfDeadRoles list. FF has Cloud and Lightning in the village to counter Kuja, Body has Heart and Liver to counter Anthrax and developed PWS/AS. And just recently in Mythology the spawn list got modified so Achilles and Kronos spawn at the same time exactly for the same reason, so village isn't totally dependant on crossfire to win. Conclusion: we need to give village mafia powers if they can't use lynches to vote out a mafia role, effectively trading mafia's and village's power. When there aren't any mafia powers anymore the Kuja autowins because his strength (voting power, the one that normally village relies on) is unstoppable.

    The problems I see, and also examples of problems caused by mafia roles unable to win alone:
    The rules I mentioned in the other paragraphs apply in almost every game I've seen so far. For example, when we make mafia unable to kill a villager role (Aerith, Fluttershy) that role gets prived of its votes as well to make it fair. Ganondorf can't be killed during the night, and so the other main mafia, Vaati, gets more numbers than Ganon does (making them more village like). Yunalesca, Judge Gabranth (FF) and Empowered Oceanus (Mythology) have more votes than usual because they couldn't kill, but even then, Oceanus was given 5 votes (making him semi-Kuja) and Y/JG were given a kill because most of the time they couldn't win with 2 mere votes. Near (DN) has 2 votes too, and just like the FF roles I think should be able to kill.

    However what we have in Kakuna is a mafia that, if left alone, has even less chances to win than the roles I just mentioned. It isn't semi-Kuja, it can't kill, and -2 votes is very easily found via voting in pairs, which is pretty much the "selfvote for Kronos" way to find Kakuna here. But don't think I'm saying that Kakuna is totally useless. It has many strengths that make it a valuable partner for its team, but what use are those when sheer luck can defeat any strategy that Kakuna would want to use? There are the high odds for hax, Venomoth, Butterfree, Charmeleon, Bug Catcher and Shiny Beedrill before it finds Kakuna to connect, any of those can leave Kakuna without any means to win. Faking hax backfires if no Caterpies left, and guess what, Caterpies are/should be priority to kill since hax is the easiest way to find mafia in the theme. And thanks to voting in pairs Kakuna will be found fast.

    Result: unless there's another mafia left to thin out village, Kakuna is screwed- and this is what I say I don't like. It goes against how I think mafia works. A mafia role should rely on the mafia powers to win and Kakuna is deprived of those. It happens with other roles as well in other games.

    Clanwar is a mess many times. Without Gunners we have 3 villages. Since there's no main village per se, the odds for tie once there's no mafia powers rise a lot more than in any other game and it also makes Neighbour Assassin/Village Leader roles that can only get more powerful the more the game advances due to their immunity to kills, distractions, hax and +X votes (making Assassin the only thing they should really be wary of).

    Malladus simply can't deal with Ganon and SK can't do it most of the time until Moon appears. SK to begin is told that he's alone, and even if he knows Moon is sided with him, he doesn't know who Moon is so he has to manually search via killing everyone until "you can't target your partners" appears, which is tedious and makes it hard to oppose Ganon anyway. Even Vaati/Vaati's Minion suffer of impotence against Ganon if they're numbers are reduced, which is a village trait and not one mafia should have.

    Radium is nice? Wrong! Radium can't prevent Uranium being Nitrokilled, or Plutokilled, or lynched. And so we get Kakuna 2.0. It's useful to his team, but can't do shit alone, and most of the time -2 can't prevent lynches anyway. And there's probably more roles like these ones.

    Finishing conclusion
    Overall result: all these roles rely on massive luck or other mafias to win when they're alone. It makes need villagers being stupid or villagers acting as kingmakers between them and other mafias to have a chance to win. That opposes the normal functioning of mafia games that I explained at the beginning, and so I ask Mafia roles having a chance to win even alone. Not being able to is the weakness of village, not of mafia.

    There's precedent in the form of Yunalesca and Gabranth being given kills supporting my reasoning. Achilles and Kronos having to spawn at the same time when before Kronos could appear without village having a way to stop him supports it too. About Kakuna, since it's what caused this discussion in the beginning, I only suggested it being able to turn into Beedrill at maybe night 4 or night 5 (since most of the time games don't last much longer) so if it happens to end up alone it gets the possibility to use a regular mafia way to win and not being almost doomed to fail trying. The game wouldn't change much and whoever got Kakuna only has the option there to use it if he wants or needs to.

    That's all I have to say for now I guess.
     
  27. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Narshen was talking about reverting that change, as it can actually be negative to their teams (if they are distracted, the whole team loses its kill)

    This is a different case. It's a situation where an entire side was completely unable to, by any means, defeat another side. Sides like House Solidor (before Judge got a kill) and Weedle Family have the means to beat any side by themselves.

    About Kakuna, it's as Windblown said: by not giving it any killing power, it encourages the player to play more smartly. That's the same argument that got Vanilla accepted, and I'm sure lots of people who play Vanilla seriously will agree that their scumhunting abilities have improved after that theme was added.

    I can see two problems with this argument:
    1. Mafia is a game where players are expected to be removed. Crossfire can happen, luck situations can occur, etc. If we are going to discuss a role's strength by crossfire potential, we have to consider absolutely all possibilities, which obviously include those roles looking overpowered when they avoid those situations. Luck hits can go both sides. It's unfair to discuss the results of crossfire on a role only based on adverse situations.
    2. Mafia is not a game where every side should be able to resist everything from the other sides. Each side only needs to be able to win, so saying Radium is a bad role because it can't prevent Uranium from being daykilled or lynched would be like saying Don FCM is ineffective because it can't prevent FCM from being inspected, distracted or nightkilled. Basically, each side needs to have a way to win against their opponents (AKA their strengths), but they need some vulnerabilities too (their weakness) so they will have to play smartly instead of just surviving everything.
     
  28. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    I had actually planned to remove it as well, but I was too lazy to actually do it. HD was the one that added that. I was trying to code it so if both (well, all 3 in large games) teammates are dead, then they get a kill. So Yuna without Jecht, Anima, and Seymour will get a kill. This way distracts would ruin the team, and would help reduce some tie breaking situations (ie, Judge vs Yuna, Either vs Cecil, 2 non-VCLR roles vs Either, etc.)
     
  29. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    That is more a problem of the distract command than anything else. PL stall is a very cheap tactic for village to use, but that should be discussed in other thread other than this one. I might start something about it after I post this.

    Except that seeing games so far I don't think the average mafia player is that smart. I've seen too many times people failing to see the obvious to think otherwise. Either that or there's actually a group of supergeniouses that make the rest look worse than they are, but somehow I think it's not that. And Vanilla is a randfest most of the time, pretty much like SI (though SI has a leader). The only scumhunting ability that rises is "who lead a rand against a mafia is probably clean" (which is a very basic ability as well) and that only works because there's only 2 sides.

    How we don't agree in this when we think so similar is what I really don't get. I agree that every side should have strengths and weaknesses. What I don't agree with is Mafia having a weakness that should belong to village. It's not about resisting everything from the others, it's that only luck shouldn't determine the fate of a side. What does "playing smart" exactly mean? Let's take the Radium example. Basically Radium should Safeguard his partner, inspect other people and give the info to Uranium so they can eliminate what threatens them, right? But then BAM, Pluto kills Uranium and what's Radium going to do? It's not fair needing people who aren't on your team to win. Playing smart shouldn't just mean "hope that what luck took from me luck will give me back". Of course there's luck involved in a game and we can't make luck just banish. But what I'm asking for is for mafias not to totally depend on partners and luck to win.

    Anyway, I'm starting to see that this is going to be a futile attempt and I'm getting a bit tired of saying the same things over and over for no result. I won't post again (I should really have thought of this earlier, shouldn't I), if this post doesn't result I'll simply admit defeat now rather than drag it out anymore. I'm not trying to make people pity me or anything here, don't take me wrong.

    What I would like though is what Windblown says, a general model to follow at least. There's always room for gimmicks but I don't think a model is a bad thing to have. And I ask Rice to consider again the option of the evolve command for night 5. It wouldn't change the game that much, and if it doesn't work you can always take it back.

    EDIT: Just saw Fuzzy's post. So what I said, if it doesn't work you can take it back.
     
  30. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    If you only look at it in a shallow way, it will look as you said, but there's more to it. Ever since Vanilla was added, we can see players actually paying attention more often to behaviours other than voting patterns. It's easier to see players suspecting others for the way they act about another player, how they speak, how often they change opinions, if they are too defensive about whatever, etc.
    It's true that, most of the time Vanilla is a randfest. That's why I said "people who play Vanilla seriously". Those who do can actually gather information even in that randfest environment.

    I'd like to ask that luck play argument is kept out of this discussion. The same way you say Pluto can come and kill Uranium and Radium can't do anything, anyone can say Uranium can get a lucky kill on 3 unprotected PRs or Mafia in a row and those PRs will have nothing they can do about it. This discussion is just unproductive and it's better left out since it can't actually help any side of the discussion.

    As for playing smartly, you are only considering role actions. There's more to mafia than that, like deciding whether to kill/reveal other mafia immediately or leaving them live a bit longer so they can help rampage the village, forming alliances (and backstabbing them later), using they information you got to manipulate other players, etc.

    Luck aside, this is the main point of the discussion. We are basically a "Mafia shouldn't depend on partners to win" argument against a "Mafia is a game about teamwork" argument. At this point, it's not about which one is right or wrong, but about how each person see mafia game. I tend to look from the "sides over roles" perspective, because otherwise, the "uninformed majority vs informed minority" concept of the game would lose its meaning.
     
  31. Xinc

    Xinc Time for Oras?

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    Personally, to be fair, characters who can win alone need to have a redeeming factor, such as a very powerful action, such as Mad King Ashnard's or Zephiel's of FE.
     
  32. JhenMohran

    JhenMohran Random Art Guy

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    The way I feel about this is that Kakuna's win alone resides in strategy as opposed to luck based.

    Kakuna's and other similar mafia roles are structured so that they can legitimatly look village like and effectively support their partners "villageness" thereby keeping them alive to some degree. I believe that one of the ways of giving Kakuna something else would be more for new players of which the strategy element may be unknown to them.

    On the whole each mafia should not have a self win aspect. It defeats the purpose of the sides which is working together. If you wanted mafia to have an equal chance on winning on their own then there would basically be an odd village vs vepix set up happening which ultimately weakens the mafia side. Having a less similar role to the other mafias forces the user to pay attention. If all mafia had that shared kill then only one needed to pay attention really which severly weakens the mafia side when the paying attention one dies. The others dont know who is clean/read scum or town/scum etc.

    Having that "weaker" mafia actually makes the side stronger by forcing all those involved to pay more attention.

    However one could say that having a less exiting role will make people switch off anyway to which I reply that there needs to be some cut of for the mafia. Not every maf role needs to win on their own but needs to have sufficiently enough to do to make the user pay attention.

    As said by Stocke the villagers power usually resides in the vote and even though people might switch off after getting "citizen" or the like the fact that there are many PRs mean that the village can still have a concentrated majority.

    I hope I got everything across ok
     
  33. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    The problem isn’t roles that start off solo and don’t have many chances to win because of their alone-ness, it’s about roles that are left alone that, if put in such a situation, have no chance to win alone.

    I actually don’t see how Kakuna can help its partners appear to be village.

    I don’t understand what you mean by “village vs vepix”. I assume that because there are multiple mafia teams (usually) in mafia themes then that means it’s village against multiple teams of Vepixes, which, on a simple plane, is probably correct (see default). Differently styled themes give mafias powers originally delegated to PRs (which imo makes those mafia sides in those themes have a higher chance to win than the mafia in default) so yes, making mafias essentially Vepix teams weaken them.

    Actually I’m starting to see your point lol. I would disagree with your point that if the mafia has a shared kill then only one member has to pay attention. Even if I’m a role like Cerberus that shouldn’t be killing when Hades is alive, I make sure to pay attention to the chat for things like people haxing other mafias, villager claims, subtle PR tells, etc. A basic mafia member doesn’t (or I guess, shouldn’t) have the luxury of just sitting back and having the village PRs do the work.

    But yeah, Kakuna’s lack of actions makes it an empowered mafia villager as Rice put it and forces to try to blend in with the village. The problem with this is that because the Kakuna can become the cleanest of the mafia roles it’ll probably end up to be the last mafia member to be lynched and thus end up alone and unable to win.

    I don't want to theorymaf over this so I hope I can get in some games where I can observe Kakuna at work and I think logs posted in this thread (even of things like ClanWar or Elements because of roles in those themes like Rice pointed out) would greatly help.

    Right now I'm leaning towards keeping Kakuna ALTHOUGH I would not be opposed to an /evolve into Beedrill for Kakuna in bigger games maybe? or wherever the number is where the Weedle mafia is weakest.
     
  34. JhenMohran

    JhenMohran Random Art Guy

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    Mainly by claiming fake hax on other people, detering focus away from partners etc.
    I'll try and find some logs where this has been done well
    pretty much corect with the bolded statement
    I just dont want to every mafia to have a kill or a poison or a convert or a multitude of votes just for the sake of IF it gets left on its own. That would make mafia teams dramatically overpowered in large games i feel.
    emphasis on "I" there.. I think that data supports that people with "less important" roles pay attention less. Like whenever there is a teamvote or an "obvious kill that wouldve won mafia the game" it is as a result of not reading everyone
    Again just depends on the strategy played really I think. If you went for a non blend in approach it would divert focus away from other teammates masively
    LOL YES SO MUCH to the thing in bold... its not needed though I kinda went there
    How about Kakuna evolves once all teammates are dead?
     
  35. Stocke

    Stocke Wat is dis I don't even

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    Though I said I wouldn't post anymore, I'm only doing it to point out something I forgot in my last message, or rather, that I didn't explain well enough. Even though it's possible for Kakuna to win were it to end alone with a villager, how is that fair at all? Mafia autowins when they tie in numbers with villagers because it's inevitable that village will lose, due to the mafia powers that will eventually eliminate the village. That's the only reason. But, Kakuna can't do that. Caterpie vs Kakuna would be a tie since no one can eliminate the other, and yet it's Kakuna who wins, which isn't fair. Just like why does DKC lose if left alone against Garland? Why can't they tie if no one can eliminate the other?

    That's the difference between mafia and village. That's why I said that having a mafia role without mafia powers defies the purpose of it being a mafia. At least Radium, Yunalesca, Near or Gabranth can do that with their 2 votes and so the rule can still apply (2 votes vs 1 -> mafia wins), but unless the Caterpie in the example voted himself (which would be clearly against the rule of "don't try to hurt your team's chance of winning purposefully") they would tie since Kakuna has NO WAY at all to kick off the villager. The rule obviously favours mafia once votes should tie, but the rule is based on mafia actually being able to finish off village and if they can't do that they should plainly tie just like they do in Clanwar.
     
  36. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Radium also has -2 votes.

    There are 2 reason those roles auto-win when they are alone against another villager: 1) To save time, as it would be an endless, unnecessary stall; 2) Because mafia's goal is actually "taking over the village", so even if they can't kill, they are still in control/cannot be removed anymore. A better way to explain it would say that village's objective is to remove the mafia, while mafia's goal is to avoid that, so in those situations, village has already failed in their objective.
     
  37. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    How do you claim fake hax? Wouldn't the Kakuna be caught in the act when the village sees the mislynch? (And then again, any other mafia role can really do this - it falls to the village to figure out that it's fakehax and the fakehaxer is mafia) I see nothing special given to it that allows it to do so.

    'Every mafia member has a kill' is actually the rule rather than the exception, a few of which are pointed out already (Kakuna, Radium, etc) Bear in mind I'm not saying that's how it should be, but we should determine this once and for all.

    That's not a problem of the role, that's a problem with the player.

    How?

    Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
     
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