[BW2] LU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Xdevo, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    At least a solid B/B- in my opinion. It requires rain really to be a successful special sweeper, but has access to powerful moves with life orb even without rain being up. Has a unique Water/Grass typing that makes it take neutral hits from most of the tier, and the fact in it's own right is a bulky enough pokemon that it's subseed tactic is actually one of the most annoying things I've ever faced (Damn you Aurist). Having used both sets to success, I think it deserves the notch at least up to a solid B for it's offensive capability and surprise feature as a specially defensive subseeder. Though its still weak to the physical hits that you'll encounter, it might be worth the nudge to just B-. None the less, Ludicolo is one pokemon you never really wanted to face in LU at any point under the right conditions.

    Magmortar I'd agree could take a nudge up to B- but fits fine at C+. It hits like a nuke, has great variety of coverage moves, but a lack of speed or power (that isn't fire blast) in most cases hurt it when I used it regularly. I mean the confuse ray set is obviously becoming standard for a reason (huehuehue), in that you honestly need specs/e-belt on a good switch and then outspeeding to really grab them KOs in success. But, using both I've found it to lack in enough areas that it's not worth being above B-.

    Rest of C (all) I pretty much agree with. Though we can argue Houndoom being a B/B- mon. Great speed tier, powerful attacking strength, with a great boosting move. Though the defenses suck, and its dead by the usual priority in the tier, it's basically high risk and high reward, but isn't that hard to use effectively as long as you have spin support.
     
  2. Molk

    Molk New Member

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    Looking at Tauros's placing in B- i'm sorta confused as to why its so low, from my experience in both RU and LU Tauros is a pretty excellent offensive Pokemon and should definitely be placed somewhere like B, B+, or hell even A- like new breed mentioned imo (from using Tauros a lot i'd say its on par with Cinccino, dunno about you guys though :x) Sheer Force in particular is a pretty cool boon for Tauros and gives it a partial immunity to Life Orb recoil that makes it a bit harder to wear down while also significantly boosting moves such as Rock Climb, Rock Slide, Zen Headbutt, and even Fire Blast. Fire Blast is especially nice as even with Tauros's somewhat low Special Attack stat it can score 2HKOs and even OHKOs on Pokemon that would normally be able to easily beat it and any similar Pokemon such as say Escavalier Steelix and Tangrowth. Tauros sits at a pretty nice Speed tier that lets it move before and deal significant damage to the vast majority of the tier before they can strike back (it outspeeds Durant by one point which is actually really cool since it can OHKO it with Fire Blast as long as it doesn't end up missing or something), and because of its decent physical bulk it can take priority moves pretty nicely compared to say Cinccino (LO Hitmonchan's Mach Punch will never OHKO Tauros after Stealth Rock for example, CB Entei ExtremeSpeed and Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet don't even come close, especially the latter). The lack of resists make it a bit hard to switch in and start dealing damage, but once it does end up getting in its going to do major damage, and often ends up ending games for me, especially with Spikes support from say Crustle. Anyways, to end off this Post i'll put some damage calculations in hide tags to show just how well Tauros performs against the current S and A ranks (some other things from lower ranks that i've mentioned such as Steelix will be included too).

    [secret] Warning: kinda long :s

    S Rank
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 250-294 (63.45 - 74.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 144 Def Slowking: 211-250 (53.55 - 63.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not sure what spread is most common here so i just used the smogon onsite spread for the second one lol)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 227-269 (64.12 - 75.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 125-148 (35.31 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (once again not sure what spread you guys use most often so i just maxed it lol, kinda unimpressive but uxie is bulky af anyways).

    A Rank:

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Durant: 520-614 (201.55 - 237.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 226-266 (70.4 - 82.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 504-598 (157 - 186.29%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 270-320 (72.77 - 86.25%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Krookodile: 277-328 (83.68 - 99.09%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (EQ from Scarf Krook doesn't even come close to a OHKO after rocks but Superpower does ;-;)

    252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 229-270 (87.4 - 103.05%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-C: 196-231 (81.32 - 95.85%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Leaf Storm OHKOs if scarf though ;-;)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 253-298 (104.54 - 123.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 203-242 (69.52 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 129-152 (31.93 - 37.62%) -- 97.24% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 250-294 (61.88 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 296-348 (104.96 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    (Outspeeds and kills with Leaf Storm/Focus Blast though :/)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mismagius: 175-207 (66.79 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gallade: 292-344 (105.41 - 124.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Omastar: 195-231 (69.14 - 81.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Omastar: 146-174 (42.44 - 50.58%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Qwilfish: 138-164 (41.31 - 49.1%) -- 19.14% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -1 252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Qwilfish: 146-172 (43.71 - 51.49%) -- 66.41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Crustle: 190-226 (67.61 - 80.42%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hitmonlee: 343-406 (141.73 - 167.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    (can potentially activate unburden i guess though ;-;)

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 227-269 (56.6 - 67.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Tauros Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 260-307 (64.83 - 76.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 263-309 (93.26 - 109.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham: 263-309 (100.76 - 118.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    (Scarf outspeeds and KOs of course here ;_;)

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier: 276-328 (80.46 - 95.62%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 172 HP / 8 SpD Escavalier: 276-328 (85.18 - 101.23%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Misc:

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Steelix: 195-231 (55.08 - 65.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 160 SpD Steelix: 166-198 (46.89 - 55.93%) -- 50.78% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 218-260 (74.65 - 89.04%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock[/secret]

    If i missed any important sets/mons/ev spreads just let me know, i don't play LU as much as RU so idk if meta changes make certain spreads better than others between the two tiers lol.
     
  3. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    I gotta agree with Molk here. Tauros is definitely one of the best wallbreakers in the tier by far. As you can see from the calcs posted by Molk, pretty much everything in the tier is 2HKOd by it. Sheer Force boosted Rock Climb is just so powerful and you run Fire Blast to lure in steels and this thing becomes an absolute monster. Some of the best physical walls in the tier can't even switch into Tauros as Tangrowth goes down to Rock Climb+Fire blast nor can Steelix and any other Steel. Another thing Molk touched on was Tauros' great speed tier, as it can outspeed all other premier wallbreakers in LU (Galvantula, Durant, Krookodile, Moltres, etc) not scarf ofc and OHKOs all of them with the appropriate move. The other plus about Tauros is its good natural bulk as it can take any form of priority and hit back hard as hell. So I'd like to say Tauros for B+ or A-.
     
  4. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    So overall I think this Rankings thread is very good but I notice it's missing two pokemon I love?? Dragonair and Fraxure

    Dragonair

    Dragonair seems to be seriously underrated. I did not ever use it till I saw it on one of Oglemi's RMTs on Smogon. I can say I have had more success with it on Pokemon Online, because Cryogonal is less popular. I am going to suggest it to be C+ rank. The standard Careful DD Rest Talk set has fantastic coverage. It hits everything besides steel types, which are fairly uncommon besides Steelix and Escav who are easily handled by Magneton. Dragon typing is fantastic, please see Druddigon. Also, with Eviolite and max SpD Dragonair has some truly magnificent defensive stats for LU. Sure it is very slow, but it is very easy to get a couple of dances and sweep teams. RestTalk might seem stupid, but it has Shed Skin so it can actually wake up immediately, and it allows Dragonair to second as a status switch in to pokemon like Uxie and Amoonguss. Dragonair checks several top tier LU pokes including Sceptile, Magmortar, Rotom-n, and is definitely a poke to consider on your team.

    Fraxure

    Fraxure is another Dragon that I really love using in RU. Clearly the best Dragon Dancer in the tier, Fraxure has incredible attack, and decent enough speed to pull off a DDance Set. Furthermore, it has access to both Taunt and Substitute to block out status, and gets great coverage with Outrage and Lowkick. I think Fraxure should be B rank. It can break through standard FGW Cores. It is really really good. It gets very very good coverage, and is not easily revenge killed. It is also very easy to set up with, it can come in on many pokes, Sceptile, Lilli after sleep clause, Tangrowth, Manectric, and Rotom-C and start setting up.

    Musharna is also missing from the list. I have seen CM Baton Pass versions work fantastically, but do not have enough experience to determine it's rank. I assume it deserves atleast a B- rank.
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    let's nooooooooooooooooooooooooot get into RU mode here and start putting niche/gimmick pokemon into B rank and higher. especially not Dragonair which isn't even that, it's just bad. (No offense to RU players, just seriously they go wayyyy too far in fetishising some things that are only OK / do well because of unprepared ladder)

    Fraxure could go into C+, Dragonair doesn't deserve a place in the list at all. Musharna is pretty neat at what it does, it does deserve B-.
     
  6. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Musharna sucks in LU. I don't particularly like it in NU, it lacks power and is mauled by most Dark types. Gallade is a better offensive Psychic type in LU while Uxie is a better defensive one (although it lacks reliable recovery). The only thing it can do reasonably well is Baton Pass, and even then Venomoth can pass Quiver Dances.
     
  7. 49.

    49. Active Member

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    Ok, so I got peer pressured into re-familiarizing myself with LU, and I feel as though I'm just about familiar enough with it to speak with a fair amount of certainty. Also I'm think I'm gonna do a soapbox thing real quick, don't yell at me pls ;-;

    For the few people that know or have heard of a nobody like me, I'm a regular on Smogon, and I might even go as far as to say a pretty decent poster in RU. That being said, I 100% agree with the fact that there is a ton of over-exaggeration of certain 'mons usefulness, an issue that can attributed to a large group of the some more well-established / "influential" users in the community establishing biases and refusing to separate from them, quelling any nay-sayers by pure strength of numbers. This has been basically the only issue I've had with that community for a while now (since honestly they're one of the most chill groups of people outside of that), and I'd like to think I've actively opposed that sort of hive-minding, because it's incredibly unproductive and thoroughly unenjoyable for everyone barring that circle of people. I actually really respect that someone is capable of conforming to overlook personal bias and take on this sort of thing in an entirely objective manner, it's a really important quality for this sort of thing. However, if you're going to follow a statement like that up with a short sprawl of sentence fragments dictating where something belongs without giving any real reason behind it, do you really feel ok with that? To me it comes across as a tad hypocritical; Laurel delivered a serious argument for each of his 'mons that, at least to a player like myself that has a pretty firm grasp of the metagame as a whole (since I played quite a lot in the past, as well as a decent amount in the more "recent" LU), seems pretty reasonable, it seems only fair that his arguments get validated with a serious response :/ If his logic is off, maybe somebody has a more extensive knowledge of the 'mons he mentions who can offer better insight, but as is it just seems like his argument is getting waved off without any effort to justify why it isn't valid; I don't mean pry, but judging only from what you posted, I would assume that not only did you not make any effort to test his claims or find any reason why they aren't valid, but also that you acted solely on the interest of being "anti-Smogon". Once again, I'd like to stress that this may full well be entirely wrong, and if that is the case I whole-heartedly encourage you to prove me wrong, but this is what your tone reflected to me, and that kind of attitude is really unhealthy in a thread such as this. If I could be so bold, I'd re-consider the suggestions presented in this thread with an open mind or, if that is already the case, at least have your posts reflect that attitude a little better; close-mindedness can be pretty contagious, it'd be a shame if it were to happen here n_n

    Ok, done now. Feel free to flame me, delete this post, or just ignore it entirely, but if you could spare the time, I think it'd be worth considering.
     
  8. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Musharna isn't anything amazing in LU (although it is in NU, but we'll save that for an NU discussion), but it is still decent.

    You say that it lacks power and is mauled by dark types. Also, you claim it is outclassed.
    Well, all psychic types are 'mauled' by Dark types, that is a simple type-weakness. It's like saying that Mewtwo is weak to Dark; therefore, it isn't a good Pokemon. Hell, this general weakness makes Krookodile as great as it is in the current metagame!
    Musharna doesn't share anything with Gallade, which you compared it to, bar 1 of Gallade's two types (in psychic.) Musharna isn't meant to be some offensive monster in LU, but it can give you a CM sweeper, tank with reliable recovery, cleric, Synchronize user, general wall with great natural bulk, and / or whatever else you want (it can run T-wave, Baton Pass, Signal Beam, Hidden Power, etc.)
    Uxie lacks reliable recovery, a support CM set (it basically is always SubCM or a SR variant), and a few other things (I.e: Synchronise - for status.)
    All in all, I get that Durant, Krookodile, etc. all threaten Musharna, but it is better than what you pass it off for.
     
  9. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Fair dos on the soapbox thing, I could have gone more in depth into what I was talking about. No anti-Smogon bias here, just problems with the way a lot of people approach the RU tier (and a couple other tiers but that's for another thread). The positions on these pokemon are coming from experience rather than bias, the post itself was coming more from an "oh god, not people coming on PO to go on about this" position.

    RE Dragonair - one of its biggest problems is it needs +4 to outspeed the common scarfers of the tier. It simply doesn't have the bulk nor the speed or the power to reliably pull off a sweep in LU. It is 2hkoed minimum by physical hits from common pokemon (Entei, Kabutops, Hitmonchan, Krookodile, Hitmonlee, Gallade, etc etc), it is still outsped by common pokemon at +1 or even +2, it lacks the power to KO walls (it needs +4 to 2hko tangrowth), many of whom have tools against Dragonair too. It's just a thing that absolutely any team in LU has about 3 or 4 different answers to Dragonair even if it's begun to set up. It's an extremely unreliable pokemon on basically every level, from its lackluster bulk, no power and reliance on Shed Skin.

    Fraxure is difficult to get set up though it has reasonable bulk, but it can be dangerous if it sets up. It does require an awful lot of support however (like an entire team's worth), as Oglemi's RMT showed.

    Musharna has really good bulk and can come in on most attacks in LU and be a threat to a team. It's not amazing, because common things can 2hko it (Entei, Druddigon etc) but it can slot reasonably into a team, take a majority of hits in the tier and be able to set up and be an immediate threat to most teams in LU. Its main problem is the prevalence of Bug types in LU as well as the omnipresent Druddigon, Entei, Krookodile. I've found though that a lot of teams are weak to Musharna and many teams naturally pack only 1 thing that actually counters/checks it.
     
  10. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Dragonair's not going on the list at all. Just because smogon regulars have fun on their ladder with certain pokemon does not make them good. It's not even anti meta and requires huge support to function. Fraxure could probably go C+ simply because a DD makes it pretty strong, but lack of Earthquake really, really sucks. Otherwise it probably would have been B rank from the start. Molten's spot on about Tauros though. Maybe A, although I could definitely see at least B. If its physical coverage was better it would be like a fast physical Nidoqueen.

    Musharna's a very good cleric by the way. Extremely bulky, nice natural attack stat and actually has recovery unlike most clerics in the tier. I wouldn't try CM sweeping with it though, too many things in the tier 2HKO it.
     
  11. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I have a problem with Hitmonchan in mid A Rank. The only things it can really do is a Life Orb set and a Rapid Spin set, and those two sets, although good, are seriously flawed. The Rapid Spin set can only do one thing well, and that is Rapid Spin. And once it Foresight spins, it takes the risk in getting Trick by Rotom formes / burned by Mismagius or Dusclops. And after it does its job, it does not do much else. The Life Orb set is good, but it is still beaten by Psychics and Ghosts very badly (sans Slowking) and it is Burn bait for Dusclops and Mismagius. It also fails to 2HKO Tangrowth with Ice Punch after Stealth Rock, and Tangrowth is one of the premier walls in LU. It is also rather slow, and can easily be revenged by Entei and Mesprit, the former of which is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier. It belongs in B- Rank or C+ Rank; it is good, but mid A Rank is severely overhyping it. I cannot see its viability on par with Sceptile and Escavalier, who are much easier to fit onto a team.
     
  12. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Okay you literally did not read a single thing 49. said and I am extremely frustrated. Dragonair is a good pokemon, read my argument, and test it yourself. It needs +4 to outspeed common scarfers? Okay what do most common scarfers do to it. Why do I need to outspeed Rotom-C and Manectric two of the most common scarfers when they cannot touch Dragonair. Fraxure suffers from the lack of Earthquake? What does Earthquake hurt that Low Kick does not. Outrage is strong enough, and barely anything resists it. C+ are you joking me? Fraxure is completely viable and DD is absolutely deadly. Fraxure needs little support besides Magneton which is why it should be B rank, in fact, it does not even need Magneton it can do serious damage with other pokemon like Magmortar for steel killing.

    You guys are being submissive of my arguments because I play RU as well, but I play LU more? Also, it is a viability ranking thread, if you think Dragonair sucks shouldn't it be in like D so players no not to use it, rather than not having it on the list at all. Before you act flagrantly with me please test the pokemon first. You obviously have not and I find that irritating and it is submissive. I have much experience with both dragons and fully know they are viable. If you tested them instead of just dismissing them, then I'd honor your claims.

    Also what support do Fraxure and Dragonair need outside of Magneton. They set up on so many things.
     
  13. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Hopping on the Tauros train and supporting it for at least B+, if not A-. As Molk said, it's kind of difficult for it to switch in because of mediocre special bulk and a lack of resistances, but once it gets in it can do some major damage. Sheer Force is such a good ability and Tauros is a great wallbreaker; it has great coverage and Fire Blast is usable on it, so it can attract Tangrowth and friends and Fire Blast to do a lot. The other moves are just pretty powerful; Rock Climb, EQ, and Rock Slide provide nice coverage and its great Speed (although it gets outsped by Scolipede smh) only sweetens the deal. Definitely a pretty good Pokemon and should move up accordingly.

    Fraxure should probably be in C+ at worst; I haven't tested it in LU yet but DD is nice over Druddigon, and thus it has a notable use in the metagame. It's kinda flawed though and Druddigon is generally a lot better, but it can still find use imo. Could be higher, I need to grab myself some legit playtesting experience though.

    Also just saying keep in mind LU =/= RU, the two metas are pretty different, not that it means a lot, but still.

    Musharna is B- imo, it's a really good pivot because of its nice bulk and reliable recovery; can heal Bell, spread paralysis, and BP which gives it a role in the meta.

    Hitmonchan is fine in A simply because it's one of the most reliable spinners in LU; yeah Mismagius, Dusclops, and Rotom can still beat it but being able to guarantee a spin even on them is awesome; Hitmonchan can beat Spiritomb though and Mach Punch makes it a decent revenge killer.

    Also I'd like to see Mandibuzz on the list here, it walls a lot of relevant threats and is pretty good imo.
     
  14. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    The problem is, Foresight Chan can only really do Rapid Spinning well. Aside from that, it is pretty much dead weight. If I am using a Pokemon, I want it to fulfill more than one role; otherwise, it is just niche.

    The Life Orb set is good, but it requires SO MUCH SUPPORT. It fails to 2HKO Tangrowth with Ice Punch even after Stealth Rock, Mismagius and Dusclops easily beat it, and its Mach Punch is severely overrated. It is nowhere as strong as you want it to be.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Entei: 110-133 (29.64 - 35.84%) -- 31.2% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 87-105 (33.72 - 40.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sceptile: 138-164 (48.93 - 58.15%) -- 96.88% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 138-164 (38.22 - 45.42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 146-173 (51.95 - 61.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Those are five neutral hits and you cannot even land 70% on any of them? How is that a great revenge killer? It is more like great revenge killer against severely weakened teams or against Pokemon weak to Mach Punch, like Aggron and Cinccino. It can't even do 70% to Sceptile nor Manectric, both of which are rather fragile. That is not something I want from a revenge killer. Hitmonchan is definitely Low B / High C Rank.
     
  15. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    I've used Fraxure a lot in the past (I haven't touched it in months, so have that in mind) and I have played both RU and LU a lot, I do agree that it is viable but it definitely needs more than just Magneton support to actually be a threat. Sure it hits hard at +1, but setting up isn't as easy as you make it sound, even with Eviolite, because you can't switch it without risk and even after you setup chances are you end weakened enough to be "easily" revenge killed with a Scarf Pokemon (Rotom-C [Which actually does near 50% with Leaf Storm to Fraxure] and Manectric aren't the only scarfers in LU) or priority. Another problem is that it relies on Outrage to sweep, which can easily backfire if you aren't running Lum Berry (nobody runs that).

    All in all, Fraxure isn't as bad as some people here believe it is (it might even deserve to be in B, but I haven't used / faced it in months so yeah), but it isn't as good as you make it sound. Just my 2 cents.

    @ Dragonair: Never used it and never will, is not my kind of Pokemon. I have faced it multiple times (including in the SPL) and it has never been a significant threat against me, but I run almost exclusively offense in RU / LU and I'm always able to at least 2HKO it with 4/6 of my team, so w/e.
     
  16. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    You made only good points here. It's just with rock support and steels removed, DD Fraxure can still get 2 kills without too many problems.
     
  17. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    dont really want to get into the discussion of fraxure/dragonair, as i dont have experience using it or playing against it really

    i really do stress that tauros should be moved to b+ or a-, it is easily one of the most underrated wallbreakers in the tier, doing significant damage to much of the tier's biggest threats. with good prediction slowking and tangrowth are 2hko'd by rock climb and fire blast respectively, also has a high chance to 2hko max def druddigon. other stuff include entei having high chance of being 2hko'd after rocks, ohkoing durant. could go on, but honestly tauros is only hard stopped by bulky ghosts like spiritomb, misdreavus, dusclops, etc.

    also magmortar discussion got buried by the dragonair/fraxure discussion pretty quickly. i agree that it should be higher, b at the lowest probably. it is also a solid wallbreaker, capable of 2hkoing slowking with thunderbolt. can also 2hko uxie (no spdef) with fire blast after rocks most of the time, which is rather impressive. a lot of other common pokes are threatened by magmortar, and it is really tough to switch into magmortar due to its excellent coverage. biggest flaw with magmortar offensively is prob the fact it needs excellent prediction or it may lose significant momentum and is potentially checked

    also, hasnt been much discussion on medicham, but i feel it may be too high. the increasing prevalence of ghost-types in the tier, along with psychic-types with high usage, notably uxie. spiritomb has always been noted as one of medicham's best counters, immune to both of it's stabs, and it can pursuit trap it or cripple it with will-o-wisp. the introduction of dusknoir also affects medicham, as medicham fails to 2hko it, even with adamant band and dusknoir can proceed to will-o-wisp. medicham is also highly reliant on hjk, and if ghosts are alive medicham cannot safely use hjk or it'll risk losing a significant amount of health. so ya, medicham may struggle to do significant damage if the opponent has a bulky ghost alive. it also fails to 2hko uxie, and uxie can proceed to twave and wat not. medicham prob better suited at b or b- imo, maybe even a bit lower
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I was going to respond to what you read before this but that really fucking bothered me. How long do you think I've been playing both of our tiers? I'm one of the group of people who made up the concept of the LU tier, and I've been testing everything in it the entire time the tier has existed.

    How about you stop pulling the "Oh I'm from smogon and that makes you discredit my every opinion automatically because I obviously only play RU!" card and actually argue points without bringing up what fucking community you're from. I KNOW that RU and LU are basically the same tier barring two or three pokemon, and I know that Dragonair has done absolutely nothing against good players for me since it takes too long to remove everything that can stop it, while Fraxure has done so well; just not consistently enough to merit anything above B. That's why I said what I did.



    Now can we please stop the "I'm a Smogon user but my opinion is valid because ____" and just argue our opinions knowing that we know enough about the god damn tier to defend our positions? You know, like adults? Fuck. I hate that PO vs Smogon gap that always gets in the way of quality discussion. If my posts seem condescending in any way, that's just because I have a blunt way of saying things unlike most people.

    I'll get into my exact reasoning for my opinions on both of those when I'm less heated.
     
  19. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I would hate to be infracted if re-posting this can get me infracted, but I feel that my post was just ignored. I don't think that Hitmonchan belongs in A tier for the reasons above. It is more like a B Tier Pokemon, because its sets are rather overhyped; its offensive set is not doing much to the opponent without a lot of offensive support, and its Rapid Spin set does not provide enough offensive momentum, and don't say it does, because I have tried Hitmonchan, and its lack of HP and speed really gets in the way of finding an ideal switch-in.

    I do agree with Tauros belonging in a higher tier (like B+ or A-), it is pretty solid offensively with its combination of power and speed, and it can get past several walls in the metagame, such as Slowking, Steelix, and Tangrowth. Its speed is also enough to outspeed key offensive threats, like Durant and Gallade, and do a ton of damage to them.

    Never tried Fraxure or Dragonair, so I should not answer on any of them.
     
  20. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alfalfa, Hitmonchan shouldn't even be trying to do 70% to any of those pokemon. With Iron Fist and Stab and LO boost, that's barely trying to imitates Entei's Extremespeed in terms of poiwer. Chan with a 339 attack, 60 move due to stab + Iron Fist makes it like 72 base power (I don't know if STAB or Iron Fist is taken into account first), then the LO boost, puts it in the range of neutral Espeed or something like it (I just woke up so incoherant post now). But, yeah it isn't going to be doing massive levels of damage.

    It's placed at a Solid A because it has Rapid Spin + Foresight, making it's spinning set very effective. It can do a stand alone Bulk Up type set, with coverage moves like ThunderPunch for Slowkings, and hit a lot of pokemon very effectively with a considerable amount of Special Bulk, so it isn't dying that easily. It doesn't need any support really beyond having a way to kill other Psychic mons, as it can fight on it's own, and deal a considerable amount of destructive damage. The thing of it is, that it's mach punch is best as a clean up hitter when your opponent is weakened, for the thing on Mismagius/Dusclops, mismagius can't switch in on a T-Punch or Ice Punch and live the next hit and fails to OHKO unless it's packing psychic. Just because one tank is able to beat it, due to the fact it has a massive bulk does not make Hitmonchan any less effective versus the rest of the metagame. A fair number of things get walled by bulky dusclops, and no arguments about moving them are to a lower spot are there. I wouldn't mind if it got moved to a B+ or A-, but it does it's job very well with offensive presence if it wants to, or just flat out drain punch everything it runs into, as it can do chunks of damage. So, it'd be fine staying at a solid A.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2013
  21. Molk

    Molk New Member

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    Looking at the ranks a bit more, i think Drapion should be moved down from B- to either C+ or C. I've always found Drapion to be quite mediocre in both RU and LU for a variety of reasons, and if anything LU looks even more hostile to the scorpion than RU imo. Despite its decent base 90 Attack stat, Drapion is actually deceptively weak because of the really low BP of its STAB moves, with each of them having only 80 Base Power respectively. I've often found that even after a Swords Dance boost Drapion seems to miss out on KOs, and that it simply isn't as strong as it looks. Anyways, as for the LU metagame being a bit hostile to Drapion, i feel as if some of the other Dark-types in the tier give it a bit more competition for a teamslot (although it does have a few niche roles, don't get me wrong), outside of mere competion, the Dark-types also decrease the usage of Psychic- and Ghost-types Drapion would target because of their presence, making things even worse for it. Something else to note is that Durant, Escavalier, and Kroododile are all somewhat common (and threatening!) in LU and give Drapion a really hard time, resisting both its STABs and either setting up a Hone Claws, or simply hammering away with either X-Scissor, Megahorn, Iron Head, or Earthquake respectively, giving any of these Pokemon (or others) a free turn isn't a good thing. As for a more defensive set that aims to set up Toxic Spikes, Drapion does indeed have a niche here, but a lot of the time teams that appreciate Toxic Spikes support would opt for Qwilfish instead of Drapion unless they desperately needed a Psychic-type immunity, a Grass-type resist etc, as Qwilfish is simply a much better utility Pokemon thanks to its great set of resistances and Intimidate Idk, Drapion just seems kinda mediocre to me, and i feel C+ or C rank would fit it better.
     
  22. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    So since I've calmed down a bit, I'll give my fair opinion on Fraxure.

    The first thing that's wrong with it is its bulk. A 66/70/50 is pathetic, especially in a tier where Slowking can easily run Ice Beam on specs/LO sets and something like a +1 Lilligant can KO it through the Grass resistance. It needs Eviolite or to face Stall in order to grab more than 1 boost, and even then common scarfers still outpace it. Mind you, stall in LU definitely isn't just grabbing the top 6 bulky pokemon and meshing them together into a team - they have at least 1 pokemon to go out and grab kills. If you do opt for Eviolite instead of Life Orb, then you run the risk of getting burned or paralyzed a lot easier than if you had the power life orb grants, so even if you take something out, you just end up trading with the opponent.

    As for individual pokemon, Durant just comes in and becomes a complete stop to you, easily OHKOing Life Orb variants while barely needing prior damage to KO Fraxure. Escavalier pretty much laughs at anything Fraxure can do, and that leads into something else; it's very hard to even bring Fraxure in on anything without Eviolite. Even with it, you can't survive 2 of Entei's CB Flare Blitz, if you catch Kabutops' Stone Edge you have to bank on a miss to grab a boost, Slowking paralyzes you or gets lucky with burn, and a partner Magneton can't really take 2 Druddigon Outrages either. Everything even slightly offensive in the top 20 of ranked usage stats gives it trouble when it tries to switch in, and defensive pokemon like Tangrowth and Uxie can either leech seed or trick you, respectively. It just has a hell of a time trying to get in and get that first DD up, and even then if you lock into Outrage before being able to kill Durant/Escavalier/Aggron, you just lost your sweep. Hell, a +1 Lilligant KO's you with Petal Dance if you're not Eviolite, and does a hell of a lot to the Eviolite variant as well.

    That's the main reason why I have a hard time finding it in B, because it can't really do a whole lot in regards to switching into a lot of the A rank pokemon, and even B ranked pokemon give it a fair bit of predicting to do. Like Hikari said, it takes a hell of a lot more than just Magneton support to work, and only Low Kick doesn't save it.

    I'm not budging on Dragonair. Too easy to trick, 2HKO'd by far too many things, needs max Speed to be effective and is too frail without max HP. It's okay versus bad stall teams but otherwise worse than mediocre. It obviously can work but needs the entire team to be built around it. By that logic you can literally make 90% of all the fully evolved pokemon in the game work in OU.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  23. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Going to have to agree with dropping Drapion to C. It's outclassed defensively as Molk stated. If you are running TSpikes, Qwilfish is definitely the way to go as it has a better typing imo and a much better ability to put to use and on top of that it checks a good chunk of physical attackers in the tier. Drapion is weak to so many common pokemon in today's metagame which is very unfortunate and does not provide the power to sweep teams compared to things like Durant, Absol, Crawdaunt and the list just goes on. It still has a small niche as it can set up Tspikes and check psychic types with ease but I don't think it's worth using over the other mons mentioned.

    252 Atk Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 200-238 (68.49 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 204-242 (69.86 - 82.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    I know these calcs have no relevance but SMH
     
  24. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    I'm agreeing with Molk and wepwnpokemon here on Drapion, I already stated my opinion on it before, so I'll reiterate it:

    Drapion is not that great of a Pokemon with Krookodile around, Krookodile outclasses it as an offensive Dark-type with its better power and STABs, not to mention Krookodile himself also counters Drapion since it resists the STABs and Krookodile can crush Drapion with EQ. 90 Attack is also kinda eh, albeit not terrible, and having only 80 BP in its STABs kinda sucks, though it is feasible. Toxic Spikes is a possibility, but Drapion suffers from no recovery and no real special bulk; so most of the time I'd rather use Roselia or Scolipede as my Toxic Spiker. Drapion is still usable though; it's just you might as well be using something else.

    it's even worse now imo with Qwilfish joining the tier for Toxic Spiking, as Qwilfish is a lot better than it. As I said, there's also Roselia and Scolipede here for Toxic Spikes users; the latter is also a lot better as a physical sweeper with a stronger STAB and a hell lot better Speed.

    those calc are pretty pathetic, Drapion is so weak lol.

    TL;DR: Drapion for C Rank
     
  25. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I have to strongly disagree with these people on Drapion and I must point out Emuritto's entire premise of saying it's not good enough is comparing it to Krookodile is silly, and saying that Krookodile resists its STABs which is silly because Drapion doesn't run both of its STABs. Drapion in LU should always be a SubSD or TauntSD Stallbreaker. For Drapion that means sitting in front of bulky mons and setting up and stopping them from doing their job. And it's good at that job. It's basically better/more reliable than pokemon like Bisharp. Also the difference for the spiking set is it has phazing and is immune to / no weak to STABS/coverage from Uxie, Slowking, Sigilyph etc. B or B- is fine for it.
     
  26. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Mandibuzz for B-Rank imo. It's a very underrated defensive Pokemon, and walls plenty of threats in the tier such as Sceptile, Sigilyph, Mesprit, Krookodile, Absol, etc. and is a great Pokemon in general. It walls those threats I just mentioned above, and has reliable recovery in Roost and the typing so they can't break past it. It also has great moves in Taunt and Whirlwind, so it can stallbreak, prevent setup, and rack hazard damage. Taunt and the typing add to it, as it can also deal with defensive Pokemon as well such as Dusclops, Roselia, and Clefable (unless Ice Beam ofc), and in general be a complete prick as they can't break past its amazing bulk. Whirlwind is also nice to make it a great bulky phazer for teams. You can go either specially or physically defensive with it and both will give you great results because of the myriad of threats Mandibuzz walls. It's a very underrated threat and deserves to be somewhere in B-Rank imo.

    Ludicolo should be at least B- or B, that thing is an absolute monster with its Rain Dance set, its LO Hydro Pumps in the rain are stupidly powerful and it has Ice Beam and Giga Drain to nail everything else, it doesn't need to be used on just a rain team, it's great on its own too so it wrecks. It's very good and deserves to be higher.

    Swellow should be on the rankings here imo, it has an absolutely ridiculous Speed tier, and Guts boosted Facades hurt, Swellow in general is a superb late game cleaner. Somewhere around C+ or B- imo, it's good and very viable in the tier.

    Absol should be C+, possibly B-, it's a very good revenge killer and wallbreaker with Sucker Punch and Night Slash and all the power; it's also good at going mixed to surprise physical walls such as Tangrowth and Poliwrath. Immediate power and mixed capabilities are nice advantages over Bisharp, it's still decent and should be C+ imo.

    Samurott could be B or B- imo, it has both a physical and specially mixed set, both are really good atm and Samurott in general is a good wallbreaker with good coverage; Megahorn to hit Tangrowth hard is also a great advantage over Kabutops or Feraligatr. It's on almost the same level of viability as Gatr imo.

    Ferroseed to B-, it has a slew of resistances and sets up Spikes very reliably and has Thunder Wave and such to provide support to its team; Iron Barbs punishes all of the spinners except Hitmonchan, and Ferroseed is also a decent switch-in to Druddigon and can chip away at its HP with Iron Barbs. It's pretty decent, and deserves B- imo.

    Quagsire should be C imo, Unaware is a decent ability so Quagsire has a decent niche that warrants use, and has Recover to do decently well. It's not too great, but it deserves to be in a higher rank than Sandslash, Munchlax, and Dusknoir.

    Venomoth to B+, holy shit QuiverPass to strong special attackers like Sceptile, Mesprit, Magmortar, etc. is super legit, and Wonder Skin is such a cheap ability. It's decent on its own too with Tinted Lens+Quiver Dance to be really hard to wall outside of the rare Emboar.

    Houndoom could be a bit higher, something like C+ or maybe B- could do, it's decent because it's got decent power with the mixed trapper set and is a decent wallbreaker in general, NP is also kinda scary if it gets the chance to boost.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  27. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Bumping because I've got off my lazy ass and made a few changes.

    Moltres is removed since it's banned.
    Druddigon was made to smaller text pending the outcome of the test.

    I'd like more opinions on a bunch of stuff I'll list later.
     
  28. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Dusknoir C- > C/C+ Dusknoir is a nice jack of all trades mon, and a unique Ghost type in LU. It's probably most comparable to Spiritomb as both get Shadow Sneak + Will o Wisp, however Dusknoir possesses greater Speed + Bulk and can effectively Check the many Bug types in the tier. It is also not helpless vs Steel types as it has access to Focus Punch + EQ, which makes it a generally better Attacker for numerous things such as Clefable, Omastar etc. It is one of the better spin blockers in the tier, losing only to SD LO Kabutops, and if it manages to get a burn on any Physical Attacker it can set up free Subs and finish things off with a Focus Punch + Shadow Sneak. I definitely think it deserves C+ as it's very effective, but i'll understand C as it's a very underappreciated mon.

    Absol C > B-/B It's SD set is probably inferior to Bisharp because Bisharp finds many more opportunities to set up due to its better typing, however Absol is a better 4 Attacks mon, and has a decent Special Attack, better Speed and Super Luck to break through some sturdier walls. Night Slash/Sucker Punch/Superpower/Fire Blast is its best imo, this thing is extremely hard to wall outside of Poliwrath and Qwilfish, it can break basically any wall, and it has access to the strongest priority move in pokemon in Sucker Punch, meaning it can be effective Vs any offense. Another under-appreciated mon that's fallen out of the limelight for some reason.

    Gastrodon C > B/B+ How the fuck Gastrodon is sitting at a C rank and Lanturn at an A- rank is beyond me. I've put Gastrodon to extremely good use as can be seen in this lovely RMT here http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?20693-Fidel-Gastro!-Peaked-1534&p=324233#post324233 (Hehe Bwoi.) Specs Gastrodon is a very good Wall breaker as it has perfect coverage and hard hitting STABs, and it finds many opportunities to switch in thanks to its great typing. it can also run a very effective Physically Defensive set with Scald to cripple Physical Attackers, Toxic to cripple walls and recover to have great survivability. The only support it needs is something to take on Grass types and and Cleric is also useful, it is definitely B material imo, and is far better than Lanturn in a Defensive role.

    Houndoom C > B Houndoom is very good in LU, his dual STAB goes basically unresisted, has Priority Sucker Punch, and 2 useful immunities to Fire and Psychic. Its Trapper set and its Special Attacking set are very effective, and it hits a nice Speed tier. Overall a very good mon in any of the lower tiers.

    Ludicolo C > B It's rain dance set is and always will be very good thanks to its great typing, great coverage, good bulk and good survivability due to Giga Drain. Can be a self sufficient Rain Sweeper, requires no support and always makes a big impact in a game.

    Alomomola C > B this thing fills more than a niche, it is an incredibly effective Physical Wall and Wish Passer in NU and LU. It is overlooked because it's an NU poke but is the glue of basically any LU Stall team, and is the only Physically Defensive Wish Passer in the tier.

    Magmortar C > B-/B Now that Moltres has left the tier Magmortar and Typhlosion need to step up and fill its shoes, Magmortar is as effective of a Stall Breaker as Moltres, it has incredible coverage, able to break through every wall in LU in 2 hits (except Sp Def Drudd + Sp Def Uxie). It also has Vital Spirit which makes it a good switch in to Grass types, and it has respectable Special Defense. It hits a pretty good speed tier for a Wall Breaker, however it isn't that fast and is very Physically Frail meaning it will sometimes struggle Vs. Offensive teams, but it is definitely the go to Moltres replacement imo.

    Poliwrath C > B it should make the jump to B mainly for its Defensive set, which is ab;e to take some of the tiers most fearsome Physical Attackers including Banded Durant, Escavalier, Entei and Aggron, as well as many others. It has Scald to burn and Circle Throw to phaze so rarely becomes set up fodder. It can also surprise you with an effective Choice Specs set which is an incredible lure and hits surprisingly hard thanks to its high powered STABs.

    Thats all for now, i have more but i'lk do them another time.
     
  29. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I've made some more changes (I won't tell you which ones so you'll actually look) with the changes brought on by the bans of Moltres and test ban of Druddigon.
     
  30. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    I've always been of the opinion that Dusknoir is pretty bad actually. It's in C- because it has a couple of small niches, but beyond that, I just really think it's not worth using at all in most cases. While Dusknoir comes with some good looking stats, I find Dusknoir is pretty weak, because it has a lot of low Base Power moves that it needs, and combined with the fact that Dusknoir needs defensive investment to do well, it's always been rather mediocre for me. I also find that Dusknoir is not that bulky because it of its abysmal HP, (for example, it is barely bulkier than a Leavanny with the exact same investment), which means it gets 2HKOed a lot. A lack of reliable recovery doesn't help either, and I'd much rather use Dusclops for a wall most of the time due to its much greater bulk. In general, I'd prefer Mismagius or Spiritomb for my spinblocker a lot of the time. Keep it in C- imo.

    Absol though I support, because it's a very good wallbreaker and Pursuit user, Sucker Punch+Superpower is stupidly good coverage and in general it's great at wallbreaking, sweeping, and revenge killing with its power and coverage. It also makes a great lure with a decent 75 SpA and good moves like Fire Blast to wreck Tangrowth and Steelix or Thunderbolt for Alomomola and Poliwrath. Super Luck is also a cheap ability. I find Absol very effective for those reasons so I'd agree with you on that.

    I also support Alomomola and Poliwrath to B, I personally think Alomomola should go up even further to B+. Alomomola's massive Wishes are a massive benefit to so many teams, not just stall, and in general with Regen and Wish Alomomola is a prick to defeat physically. It fits really well onto teams, walling threats like Krookodile and Entei without much trouble, Alomomola+Roselia is super good too. Poliwrath is imo the best bulky phazer in LU, walls Durant and Escavalier (huge boon), along with a lot of physical threats, Scald burns are cheap, and Circle Throw is neat too. I support these two as well.

    I think Roselia should be B, it's a great specially defensive spiker, sets up Spikes well, and walls threats like Sceptile, Omastar, Rotom-C, etc. It supports its team well in general, and has good offensive presence too, also synergizes super well with Alomomola and Poliwrath. Move it up imo, I'd explain more but I'm out of time.

    Just some thoughts.
     
  31. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Haven't played a lot of LU lately (ladder is kinda dead tbh) but I disagree with this. I use Dusknoir on my team over Spiritomb and Mismagius for very good reasons. It's a solid check to Durant, Scyther and physical Sceptile, and a bunch of other physical attackers. It also beats almost every spinner 1 vs 1 unlike the other two. It has access to good coverage moves like EQ and Fire Punch, and it's attack stat is very solid for a wall. Pain Split actually isn't bad recovery at all on Dusknoir, it won't keep it alive for very long but it gives it just a little more survivability and it chips away at the opponents health. There aren't many pokes that appreciate coming in on Dusknoir, as not many pokes like a burn and pokes like Entei risk taking an EQ. Getting 2HKO'd a lot is just not even true, it has very solid bulk and rarely ever gets 2HKO'd.