If any tier at all can get a definitive ranking list, it's LC. Discuss where you think certain pokemon should be ranked and why - and please avoid making posts like "I think Charmander should be A+ rank because its really strong". Note that this list started with just the opinion of one person and is completely up to change depending on what people and the leaders think is accurate.
As mentioned in Indigo suggest merging to S A+ A- B+ B- C+ C- D [secret]Timburr, Drilbur, Yanma to S (3 of the best and most useful Pokémon in the tier, some of the most common for a reason. Perhaps Yanma can go A+ though) Clampearl to A+ (Requires setup to do anything really, can struggle to do that sometimes) Chinchou to A+ possibly S (Same as the first 3, performs a few roles really well, only good cleric in LC except perhaps Lickitung) Porygon to A+ (same as Chinchou very useful tank, possibly the best at it) Vullaby to B+ (it certainly performs but I don't think it quite earns A rank, it has a few annoying weaknesses and is totally destroyed by status in terms of taking hits) Cranidos to C+ or C- (Its attack just doesn't make up for its abysmal defenses or low speed) Stunky, Staryu and Houndour to A- (These Pokémon all perform their duties very well and deserve a spot in A, Houndour less so than the other two I suppose) Larvesta, Ferroseed and Foongus to B+ ( Foongus puts a stop to common threats like Chinchou and Timburr and is very hard to kill, Ferroseed is the premier defensive hazard setter and is not set up bait thanks to Twave, Larvesta's power and cool resistances give it use enough to be B+) Drifloon to B+ or B-, Natu to B+ or B-, Dratini to B- ( Drifloon's niche as a ghost type in Acrobatics sweeps is something no other ghost can do, and it's extremely dangerous, I think it's explosive potential makes it B tier, Natu is the only Magic Bouncer and the best Dual Screens user in LC, its tools in U-Turn and incredible support movepool make it B tier, Dratini is an extremely destructive sweeper if it gets going and is difficult to revenge, even with priority thanks to Espeed also the rest talk sets are dangerous too, that's easily B-) Bronzor to C- or D, Sandile to C-, Frillish to B+, Tirtouga to B+, Smoochum to C- or D ( Bronzor has some nice resistances but they don't really overcome the fact that it's the single most setup fodder Pokémon in LC, Sandile idk, I don't see it, but I can't see it earning a highter place than Archen and Ponyta at all, Frillish has some of the most useful resistances and immunities ever, it is the best spinblocker (missy loses to much to Mold Breaker EQ from the best spinner), Smoochum has LK but it also has 0 defense and sub par speed and not enough SpAtk to make up for it, Tirtouga is an extremely useful defensive Pokémon if you give it such a set, and it can also make an effective Smasher if it wishes, I think that earns it B+) Archen to B-, Ponyta to B-, Tentacool to C+ (Archen has a nice set of resistances and extremely threatening attack power along with SR, I don't think it's C tier, Ponyta has great speed and powerful attack, as well as Flare Blitz and Wild Charge, it also gets Morning sun to upkeep itself, I think it deserves B tier, Tentacool is the best Tspiker in LC, that's worth something more) Cubone to C- (still powerful as they come despite its flaws) Additions: Pawniard in B+ tier Carvanha in C- tier Hippopotas to C+ or C- Poliwag to D Larvitar to C- Rufflet to C- Magby to C+[/secret] Probably missed some stuff. Everything in this post is strictly IMO just posting what I think.
With enough support for a mon I'll make certain changes, seems like 2 or more seems reasonable when tier leaders affirm. Moving: Clamperl down to A+ Drilbur up to S Porygon up to A+ Cranidos down to B Larvesta up to B+ Tirtouga up to B- Snover up to B+ Ponyta up to C and Weavile's additions also I want to show my support for Riolu and Timburr in S rank. Riolu is always a volatile presence in LC and is the best revenger in the tier, Timburr is a near-unstoppable set up powerhouse with few checks everyone should definitely make sure they read through Weavile and fitzy's posts because I'd like to keep this as democratic as possible - more support for a pokemon to go to a place = it moving.
Some suggestions from my opinion: Spoiler I agree with everything Weavile said except: Clamperl should stay S, Yanma should stay A+, Sandile to C+, Riolu to A- (stupid set needs hazards while others aren't that good key word that, its still really good) Ponyta to B- or B (highest BST, one of the bulkiest attackers, has access to two incredibly useful abilities, has perfect coverage, and it has a fairly reliable recovery. While yes its two greatest checks are amazing, nothing wants to take a sun boosted flare blitz from the sunny day set, and I mean nothing (w/o flash fire ofc). It can do almost as much as Houndour, and will live a lot longer.) Snover to B + (the only weather setter in the tier. Capable of creating whole teams and taking crummy Pokémon and making them powerhouses (Seel). Plus scarf Snover with blizzard can really thrash any unprepared team.) Aipom and Mewoth to C+ (While yes they are niche Pokémon, they still work on almost every team, and are the premier fake out users.) Zorua to D (only gets by because of its gimmick ability. It sucks imo) Diglett to C+ (great trapper, and a really good way to stop some threats like Magnemite. Although it isn't too good; that trapping power is incredibly useful.) Dwebble to B+ (its shell smash set is completely out classed, but its hazard set is un paralleled. imo t isn't A worthy, but is p good.) Eevee to C (quick attack is really powerful, and retaliate... THAT ATTACK IS SO STUPID POWERFUL IT HAS 280 POWER ON A REVENGE! Eevee isn't great but it hurts... a lot...) Voltorb to D (it sucks but deserves a spot b/c of its good speed and ability to (unreliably) check Yanma)[/HIDE] Will update later when I have more time.
Ferroseed - A (Good wall, spike setter, lure too). Natu - A (Decent at stopping hazards, can check weakened Timburr too and also Slowpoke etc) Magby - C (It's weak to SR... It's not very good) Cubone/Eevee/Zigzagoon - C- (they are not that bad, high atk) Frillish (C+, good wall and can deal with Staryu as a spinner, as well as Drilbur) Porygon A (Excellent but not A+ standard imo)
How is tentacool so low? It can do toxic spikes and rapid spin. And solosis? It should be S! Trick room sweeper, can kill about 4
Trouble is Solosis is very slow and quite fragile, so it has trouble finding space to set up a Trick Room. That said, if it gets it set up it can be very effective. I also think Tailow should be B not C. 2 very powerful STABs in Facade and Brave Bird make it deadly late game.
Foonguss in B-, Shroomish in C-, I don't think foonguss outclasses Shroomish so much tbh, They have really similar bulks, the differences are their typings, and their abilities basically. EDIT: I agree about Dratini in B-: good bulk with Eviolite, access to DD a strong priority, and good abilities, Rest or Rest Talk sets are really hard to stop. Also yes Lileep in B: good bulk, recovery and can set up SR while preventing RSers from coming in with Giga Drain, it also walls things like Chinchou. Drifloon is really a good sweeper with immunity to Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave and Normal priorities, while it can troll SPers with Destiny Bond forcing them to switch out or to die, Imo it should be at least B-. Finally Natu is an amazing support poke, with access to Screens, U-Turn, Wish, Thunder Wave, Tailwind, and some offensive moves like Heat Wave and STAB Psychic. I think Natu helps every team it is in so it should rise to B or B- Imo Aipom is outclassed by Meowth Imo so it should go down to C-. I don't see all the support they need for being C+
I wanna question the support for Natu being higher. It has a useful typing and a great ability and I feel like that's where things stop for it. In both terms of offense and support I feel Natu is quite outclassed, it lacks the bulk to be able to play around with switching in and momentum, as well as the fact that most SR setters carry a super effective move (and not just because hurting Natu is good, but also because of coverage and/or STAB). And the most common and powerful SR setter, Drilbur, can set up rocks regardless of if Natu's in play. I don't feel like it's good enough to be a B tier pokemon when it has difficulty even pulling off the unique role it's supposed to have.
why is slowpoke b-?!?! Move slowpoke up to a, best fighting check in the meta, solid defensive wall, access to regenerator and slack off makes it top tier!
Slowpoke is better than a B- but not an A. Sure its a good fighting check but there are really only two fighters that get any use. Its typing leaves a lot to be desired in a tier filled with powerful ghosts and sucker punchers. Plus it gets creamed by Common electric types such as Magnemite and Chinchou. Slowpoke is a solid B, maybe a B+, but not an A.
One powerful ghost, gastly's usage isn't great, slowpoke absorbs most sp due to it's massive bulk and can ohko croagunk back with psychic and get a burn on stunky with scald. While it is a solid fighting check, imo it is the best defensive mon in lc right now, making it anywhere from b+ to an a!
At the moment in A tiers, the only pokemon that are defensive are ones that can also provide a significant offensive threat in some way (Porygon, Chinchou, Munchlax, Vullaby). In a tier where even with a handful of offensive threats banned and with eviolite, the meta is still extremely offensive because of the sheer power of many of the pokemon and the simple fact that HP calculations work so strongly against defensive pokemon - being a defensive pivot in LC, like Foongus, Slowpoke and Lickitung, is useful but not a super-strong top tier role. All 3 pokemons' lack of offensive capabilities in spite of their good abilities or high bulk or decent movepools make them IMO a little bit of a liability in LC, relying strongly on their respective recoveries (Giga Drain/Regen, Slack Off/Regen, Wish/RestTalk) creates a situation where the advantage of play is usually on the side of the attacker. They're useful and good pokemon in their own right, I just feel as though they don't belong that high. Of course if more people disagree with me and think they're higher I'll put them higher.
Drilbur is a well known exception... Natu is still a full stop to Ferroseed and can bounce back Spore (Shroomish/Foonguss) or Twave (Porygon?), also it offers support as i said above with a lot of moves and it's a good check for Fighting pokes EDIT: Strong all my other opinions got discarded
Poli, your opinions didn't get discarded just because they weren't all responded to. This is a big thread with a lot of long posts. If I was just discarding stuff according to my opinion things like Riolu would be in S by now - I can't assume that others agree with that. Drilbur is more than an exception for Natu because it's one of the most common and above all one of the best pokemon in the tier. Natu is itself an exception having 17% less usage than Drilbur. It's not a strong check for Fighting pokes because they all carry a move that 2hkos Natu. It's a shaky check - like saying Copycat Riolu loses to Misdreavus when in reality Riolu can easily beat it with Crunch. Natu's ability to reflect status and hazards is useful but 90% of the time it's too easy to see when a Natu is coming in to play. The only thing Natu isn't outclassed at imo is a Dual Screens set and then most teams don't really care about having screens. And like I said if enough people disagree with me then I'm only one opinion, Natu can rise if people truly feel it's a significant enough threat in the tier.
It's not that much of a threat and it should be lower. One of the main reasons in my opinion is because Drilbur can set up rocks on it. You say Natu can bounce back Thunder Wave, but after that Porygon straight walls it. Also Natu isn't outclassed since nothing in the tier can bounce back hazards or status and straight wall most defensive setters. Natu should be in the B ranks. Munchlax is not A All it does is absorb sleep specifically from Yanma. Other than that it gets forced out easily and worn down. It's pretty overrated. Will Edit later cuz Phone is dying.
Slight revive. Imo Poliwag is mid C. It may not be the easiest to use or the most reliable but when it gets going it's extremely threatening, and it can influence your opponent's play quite heavily if used well. I think it earns a mid C spot. Slowpoke imo to A-. Great sponge for fighting types like Timburr. Regen, Scald, Twave/Toxic and recovery in Slack Off, as well as TR ability. It has everything a tank needs to have in LC in terms of movepool, stats and ability. Frillish to A- aswell, it has simply amazing resistances, great stats, all the movepool it will ever need and two incredibly useful abilities. It beats a large number of threats in this meta and cannot be underestimated. (Also offensive Scarfers can be a real surprise dent in a number of teams). Mankey mid C. Kind of an unreliable mon, all it gets over Riolu/Timburr in terms of being a fighting type is U-Turn. Decent scarfer but not really powerful enough. Archen to high C, very powerful bird with access to Taunt, Rocks, Acro, U-Turn and even agility. Also a nice set of resistances and usable speed. I think it's much more threatening than C- would imply. Swinub to D or off the list, this thing is really bad. It has no real niche, its attack is sub standard, no defenses and p bad speed. I find it indefensible. (Imo as always)
Axew to A! That thing is lethal once Bronzor and Ferroseed are down, and Magnemite can easily deal with both of them.