BW

Discussion in 'Review' started by Kurapika, Aug 4, 2013.

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  1. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    Hi, guys!

    I have posted this theme idea under the name of Duel in the Theme Critique and Improvement forum.
    But, since I wanted the theme to have something Pokémon related, the best thing that it fits in is the duality between Truth and Ideals.

    Summary
    There are 2 "village" sides: Ideals and Truth, each one of them is leaded by a semi-invincible Hero accompanied with Zekrom and Reshiram. Each one of the 2 Heroes has to kill those of the other side to ensure their victory, eventually, in average games, the Victory Pokémon, Victini, will appear, it is a conspirator that can win with either Truth or Ideals, then, in semi-large games, Colress appears, it's a solo role that wins alone, and, for him to win, he needs to study the 2 Dragon Pokémon of the 2 Heroes, the problem is that Victini has a very very high chance to hax him when he tries to /study, so he has to find Victini first.
    Code:
    - Old: Please click me!
    - New: Please click me!

    Win conditions for every side
    > Truth: When all Ideals Seekers are eliminated.
    > Ideals: When all Truth Seekers are eliminated.
    > Peace (Victini): Wins with any of the 2 Heroes or if both Heroes are dead.
    > Science (Colress): Wins if he successfully used /study on both of the 2 Heroes. Auto-loses if a Hero died before he could successfully use /study on him/her.
    So, Truth/Ideals Seekers need to convince both Heroes to not kill them... some scum and deception skill is needed here! Heroes need to read thourought scum and decide who to trust and who to kill, and who to avoid to kill, in case of a possible bomb... Victini is pretty much the easiest role to play, until Colress appears!! When Colress is around, Victini cannot claim, but if Victini is killed, Colress's task will be easier.

    Roles list
    All roles, when inspected or exposed, are seen as Science, Peace, Truth or Ideals, depending on their side. (Except for Fake Ideals/Truth Seeker)
    Science side:
    > Colress: Appears after Victini does. During the night: Can either /kill someone during the night or use /study on one of the 2 Heroes. During the day: Can inspect someone. Auto-wins if he used /study on both Heroes. (Victini has a 80% chance to get hax on /study, Ideals and Truth Spies have a chance of 10% to hax /study. + /study cannot be used 2 nights in a row. + safeguard prevents /study). This role was added to add more challenge. It appears in games of 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, ... players.

    Peace side:
    > Victini: Conspirator that wins with either Truth or Ideals or when both Heroes are dead. Can either inspect, poison (2 days) or safeguard. During the day, can expose anyone as Truth or Ideals. This role was added to allow me to extend the game's size without affecting the balance between Truth and Ideals. It appears in games of 9+ players.

    Truth side:
    > Truth Seeker: Villager. During night 1, one of them can convert into Hero of Truth. During night 2 onward, can randomly convert into either True Truth Seeker, Fake Ideals Seeker, Truth Spy, Truth Inspector or Truth Exposer. During night 4 onward, can use /defense to randomly convert into either Truth Defender or Truth Ninja or use /offense to convert into either Exploding Truth or Venomous Truth.
    > Hero of Truth: Samura, using Reshiram's power, can daykill someone every day. Cannot be killed or lynched. Cannot be poisoned by Victini or Venomous Truth. Evades poison from Venomous Ideals 50% of the time.
    > True Truth Seeker: Dies in 3 days. Can self-expose once.
    > Fake Ideals Seeker: Dies in 3 days. Reveals as Ideals when inspected or exposed.
    > Truth Spy: Dies in 3 days. Gets hax on Ideals and Truth Seeker's actions. Gets hax on Colress' /study command.
    > Truth Inspector: Dies in 3 days. Can inspect someone once.
    > Truth Exposer: Dies in 3 days. Can expose someone once.
    > Truth Ninja: Dies in 2 days. Evades daykills.
    > Truth Defender: Dies in 2 days. Can safeguard someone from /poison or /study, 2 charges.
    > Exploding Truth: Dies in 1 days. Bombs daykills.
    > Venomous Truth: Dies in 1 days. Can poison someone once, it takes 2 days.

    Ideals side:
    > Ideals Seeker: Villager. During night 1, one of them can convert into Hero of Ideals. During night 2 onward, can randomly convert into either True Ideals Seeker, Fake Truth Seeker, Ideals Spy, Ideals Inspector or Ideals Exposer. During night 4 onward, can use /defense to randomly convert into either Ideals Defender or Ideals Ninja or use /offense to convert into either Exploding Ideals or Venomous Ideals.
    > Hero of Ideals: Samura, using Zekrom's power, can daykill someone every day. Cannot be killed or lynched. Cannot be poisoned by Victini or Venomous Ideals. Evades poison from Venomous Truth 50% of the time.
    > True Ideals Seeker: Dies in 3 days. Can self-expose once.
    > Fake Truth Seeker: Dies in 3 days. Reveals as Truth when inspected or exposed.
    > Ideals Spy: Dies in 3 days. Gets hax on Ideals and Truth Seeker's actions. Gets hax on Colress' /study command.
    > Ideals Inspector: Dies in 3 days. Can inspect someone once.
    > Ideals Exposer: Dies in 3 days. Can expose someone once.
    > Ideals Ninja: Dies in 2 days. Evades daykills.
    > Ideals Defender: Dies in 2 days. Can safeguard someone from /poison or /study, 2 charges.
    > Exploding Ideals: Dies in 1 days. Bombs daykills.
    > Venomous Ideals: Dies in 1 days. Can poison someone once, it takes 2 days.
    Why is my theme different?
    The fight in this theme is very intense:
    - In the 2 "village" sides, villagers have to be scum and good at the same time, they have to convince both their friendly Hero and their enemy hero that they're allies, they can take the risk to be more useful but they will die faster... The 2 leader (the 2 Heroes) have to filter scum from allies and make the good decision.
    - Victini is pretty much the easiest role to play, it can help and/or hinder both the Truth and Ideals. (Villagers can claim Vicitni when PM'ing the twin Heroes :D, since Victini must stay alive as long as Colress is around!)
    - Colress, a pretty subtile role, its win condition is simple, BUT many obstacles are in its path: Victini has 80% chance to hax him when trying to use /study. It has to win before one of the "2 villages" loses all its villagers or its Hero. It's impossible for him to win without using /study on both Heroes.

    EDIT #1:
    - Villagers (Truth Seekers/Ideals Seeker) lost /defend and /offense commands, now, they have only /convert command that includes /defend and /offense commands' part 2 nights and 4 nights after the game starts.
    - Villager's /convert command now has only 10% chance to succeed.
    - Victini lost its /inspect, /poison, /truth & /ideals commands, instead, it received /boost a command that allows him to increase the chance for 2 villagers to convert from 10% to 90% for. (I will probably give Colress hax on this command, if I do, I'll make this hax chance start very low and slightly increase the more the game lasts.)
    - Colress's /link command renamed into /study.

    I need your opinion if you think that:
    - I should disable the voting phase or not. (I think it is better if the 2 Samurais share the job with villagers.)
    - I should keep it as a non-peak theme or not. (Even tough the actual code supports 40 players, big games will require me to alter some recharges and similar things so that big games will not end faster and to maintain Colress' balance.)
    - The theme itself is good or not. (I think it is worth a shot!)
    - I should give each one of the Seekers a Pokémon that fits its ability. (f.e.: Exploding Ideals has an Electrode.) (I prefer not doing so, I prefer keeping it simple)
    - ... anything else.

    Thanks for reviewing,
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  2. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    This is an...interesting...theme.
    Guess you could say the truth hurts? xD
     
  3. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    How could Victini ever win on it's own, since both Hero's are both invincible and win only at the destruction of the other's team? Anyways all I noticed was that Victini's help needed more info, (Victini isn't told it wins with both sides even though it is let on). Anyways the theme looks really good on paper so I'll grant you a Test [1]
     
  4. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    Damn, this seems really hard to keep up with on paper. However, on paper is almost always different from in practice and this is definetly a theme I would love to see in practice. I like the way you took a bland theme and gave it a unique flavor that actually really fits the theme well.

    The concept is also one that looks pretty interesting. I don't want to approve it yet because I'm not exactly sure how it would play out in an average game of server mafia, so i'm going to give it a Test[2]
     
  5. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    Ikr, just like, I am not sure how this theme would be on the server, and how people would react with it!! I'd like to see it tested. ^^
    @MewtwoHidden, Victini is the Peace side, it wins when one of the heroes win which ends the conflict and brings Peace, or when both die which also ends the conflict (note that Colress dies when both Heroes die because its win condition cannot be fulfilled).
     
  6. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    I need to bump this theme...

    I hate how all villagers can convert to a semi-PR-semi villager role, this can make the theme a convert-fest and bring a lot of confusion, not to mention that, since villager have the possibility to convert to one of so many roles, it makes these roles' description a little confusion and complex, while villagers should be as much simple as possible!
    This is why I have been considering the option to total go extreme and remove all those semi-PR-semi-villager roles. Which would make me sad! xD
    But, not only villagers are bothering me, Victini's role too. Victini is supposed to represent Peace, but since I needed to make the game go faster, I gave it a poison command. Victini poisoning does not quite make sense! Victini, as we all know, is that peaceful cute Pokémon that gives power to people, helping them reach Victory!

    This is why, I found the perfect solution:
    - Villagers will no longer have the conversion commands.
    - Victini's poison command will be replaced by a convert command that converts villagers randomly into one of the semi-PR-semi-villagers roles. I will also give Victini some silent cursed initial condition, to make it never convert people into bombs and such during the first nights of the game.

    This will make the theme be much more simpler, Victini's role will make sense. Of course, I will have to edit Colress in a way that makes Victini never find him with the /convert command.
    I'll start coding this as soon as I find the time and the mood for it! xD
     
  7. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Oh yes. I think that this theme was interesting. I'll check some things first. Just PM me to remind me to do this later.
     
  8. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    Ok, Roild!
    As of the change I was willing to make. I thought about it again... and didn't remove villager's converting commands, instead, I merged them all in one /convert command that has a fail chance of 90% + used the silent curse feature to make the convert exclude some roles (like bombs) during the first nights of the game.
    Then, I removed all of Victini's commands and gave him a /boost command that decreases villagers' failchance to 10% for 1 night (I used again the silent curse feature to make villager get back their high fail chance once the night ends).
     
  9. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Okay. I don't understand the point of Victini's expose. You have it so that the heroes can essentially never die. Yet everyone else dies in 1-3 days. Now my question is where the mafia aspect comes in... I see Colress can win very easily when it's around, Victini will just win always when he's not. People are going to die without actually doing anything and for essentially no reason (getting a poisoned role). This isn't even like Survivors because that theme gives a chance for zombies to win. There's a lot going on for a supposedly non-peak theme (outside of the actual coding, since Oracle has more going on in the code, but gameplay is simple) by way of safeguards, poisons, exposes, bombs, and other combinations thereof. I'm going to decline [1]
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  10. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    ^Roild and I were talking about that basically on the server.

    Not to mention that the only way heroes are removed are by poison, but that takes time and in a very fast paced game it's going to undermine the importance of all those other roles. And yeah, why should Victini not be able to expose Colress as what he actually is? If he needs to get Colress out to safely claim he should be able to do that. Not allowing an expose as Science makes it much too difficult for him.

    Decline [2]
     
  11. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    Eww, well, I wanted the theme to be centered on scum and deception. That's why I made villagers receive a poison when they change role, to force people to rely more on scum rather than "powers", but I guess I was extreme by making that poison last very fast I guess... As well as having many convert roles for villagers.
    I removed Victini's expose commands to avoid day spam, since, in-code, villagers have a lot more chances to get a reveal or an expose than other powers.
    The 2 Heroes are unkillable and unlynchable, that does not make them OP in this theme, since every side has a strict win-condition without which it cannot win!! The only "mafia" in there is Colress, a solo role, his kill is almost useless as I gave it to him only to be able to get rid of Victini.
    When Colress is not around, the game is a war between 2 sides that are mafia and village at the same time, Victini can claim safely in these games, but that doesn't make it really OP as it has only the power to boost villagers. :/
    When Colress is around, Victini should claim to both Heroes in PMs...

    I am very disappointed to see the theme getting declines so fast. XD I was hoping to see it tested to have a better vision on it. :/

    I think I have to get rid of 5/11 roles of each side: Venomous Truth/Ideals, Exploding Truth/Ideals, Truth/Ideals Defender, True Truth/Ideals Seeker and Truth/Ideals Ninja.
    As well as making the poison last longer: 4 days.
    Or I can just go back to how the theme was originally, when I just started making the theme, and totally remove the power to convert for villagers. x)
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2013
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