[BW2] Landorus-I Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Halsey, Jul 26, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    9
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    Most Flying types and Levitate in OU, like Dragonite, Gliscor, and Landorus-T will not enjoy taking a Hidden Power Ice. Only Gyarados and Latias are the most notable example. Also, Landorus can simply U-turn out of Celebi and Latias, hit them hard, and come back another time. Nobody said you had to use Rock Polish.

    TornT, Blaziken, and Excadrill were also fragile. I am just not seeing how the hell it would be "manageable" unless you leave part of its key traits out of the equation.

    So really, only Gyarados and Cresselia are guaranteed counters for all Sheer Force sets.
     
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Chansey is a counter, able to PP stall out Focus Blast with Wish and Protect. A Pokemon doesn't need direct counters to be manageable. What can directly counter Hydreigon, Haxorus, Dragonite, Salamence, Terrakion and all versions of Jirachi?
     
  3. phucvn

    phucvn Cheap player

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    phucvn
    You forgot Gengar, who is never 2HKO with HP Ice.
     
  4. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    16
    PO Trainer Name:
    Day Healer
    I don't think this is exactly. Chan/Blissey, Gengar, Bronzong, Rotom-W, spe.def Latias, spe.def Celebi, Virizion are all guaranted counters too.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  5. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    9
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    Rotom-W is not a counter to Landorus-I. It has to prey that Landorus misses on Focus Blast:

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-168 (46.86 - 55.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    And 70% accuracy is still good enough to put pressure on Rotom-W.

    Latias and Celebi do not counter Landorus because Landorus can simply U-turn out of them, hitting them hard, while switching out before they can even do s***.

    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 174-205 (47.8 - 56.31%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (79.7 - 94.05%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Virizion is not even that common, and some variants of Landorus-I carry Psychic for both Virizion and Gengar.

    And oh,
    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 117-138 (44.65 - 52.67%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 162-192 (50 - 59.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 146-174 (45.06 - 53.7%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (combination of HP Ice and Focus Blast)

    Basically, you are narrowed down to only Chansey, Blissey, Bronzong, Gyarados, and Cresselia, two of which are not very common, and the other two fading in usage due to a multitude of hard-hitting fighting-types, like Keldeo and Terrakion. So basically, Gyarados is its only common counter.
     
  6. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,551
    Likes Received:
    602
    PO Trainer Name:
    Luck>Skill
    I stopped reading your post here, like seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you, do you even...play this game

    The problem of LandoTar is that YOU CAN'T JUST SWITCH OUT YOUR LANDORUS COUNTER FROM TYRANITAR BECAUSE IT HAS PURSUIT, WHICH IS THE MAIN PROBLEM, IT HINDERS SWITCHING WHICH HAPPENS TO BE THE BASIC OF COMPETITIVE POKEMON

    Rendering playstyles useless isn't the basis on which you decide what pokes to ban, I don't think a lot of the ubers mon makes some playstyles unusable (Lugia being a very good example, obviously I'm theorymonning but yeah)

    The biggest problem here is that most of the stuff that can switch into earth power is a: slower than Landorus, thus easily killed by the next move bar very few selected pokes b: they are faster but are OHKOd by HP Ice, excluding Lati@s and Gengar I guess

    Now, aside from the fact that Tyranitar can just destroy both of the offensive checks, another problem is that the Latis pretty much have to run Recover or SR + Hp Ice will just destroy them if they are not, which limits its checks to using specific sets

    Gengar can't OHKO back without Icy Wind, so explain me how is it any good of a check
     
  7. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    16
    PO Trainer Name:
    Day Healer
    U realize Rotom uses leftovers? also in the RP set, if Landorus use RP turn 1 sending Rotom he is hard pressed because he can't 2OHKO (or 3HKO). If it's the u-turn set, u need good prediction to use Focus Blast again a possible Rotom-W switch, but prediction is a two way street, so yeah.

    If Landorus is using u-turn means he isn't using a sweeper set, and can be taked care for the lot of faster pokes / scarfers in the tier. Hence not OP.

    About these calcs, see my Rotom-W comment again.
    For Psychic usage, see usage stats here. I't only reach the 10% of usage, so to don't be taked in account in this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  8. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    11
    Seriously mate? I am sorry but the only soft counter that Landorus can outspeed and heavily hurt with U-Turn is celebi. You cannot outspeed Latios/Latias and so, you are counting on prediction. Also, there is a ton of soft counters and checks in OU like Rotom-W, Bronzong, Latis, Gengar, Alakazam, Gyarados, Chansey/Blissey (who are counters), Cresselia too, Virizion (shaky check) and even Bulky Breloom (BU set). As far as revenge killers go, any scarfer and everything faster than landorus (about 10 pokemon, 6 of which are frequently used) + Mamoswine, Weavile and Scizor + Lucario (if it is worn down).
    I fail to see a lack of checks and there are enough counters to the U-Turn set (which is harder to stop with stall). Also, lets not forget that HP Ice is weak as fuck and Focus Blast hits only few pokemon (namely Ferrothorn, Ttar for the ohko and Skarmory, Bronzong). In other words, its offensive prowess is EP and only EP, which is retardedly powerful but the plethora of flying types, levitators and grass types limit its use.
    Landorus isnt a pokemon that you can just spam a button, like Latios or Band Kyurem-B who kill almost the whole meta bar 2-3 pokemon in two hits at worst. And even then, these pokemon have not been deemed broken.
    Do not make wild assumptions please.
     
  9. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    237
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    The thing is that most Latias variants outspeed Landorus since you're mostly running LO Modest. This gives your opponent a lot of opportunity to set up or fire off or setup.

    I don't see why Psychic sets are brought up. They're bad and way too situational and underused.

    I find it somewhat unfair that you bring up common offensive cores to fill up every gap that Landorus-I lacks against a single counter/check. I think from team composition a good defensive core should be considered as well.


     
  10. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    9
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    Did you even read Luck>skill's post lol:

     
  11. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    130
    PO Trainer Name:
    SheerForceGatr/Bulba
    I'm seriously sick of people bringing up offensive CORES on a LANDORUS-I SUSPECT DISCUSSION. We are not here to discuss cores (otherwise lots of stuff would be banned/discussed already), simply Landorus-I and its impact on the metagame. And to those who do mention LandoTar, you know that this requires prediction on your side to use correctly right? You are ASSUMING everything works in your favor in terms of switches.
    The RP set gets recoil damage while dealing with common checks along with damage from a chosen move (Directed @ Luck>Skill on how Gengar is a check). Not to mention Disable renders Landorus completely useless against it. That and you have to rely on the ever-so-infamous Focus Miss hitting every time it needs to and the weak HP Ice. The Ebelt attacker is significantly easier to counter/check as speed becomes a huge fault.

    We also need to keep in mind that Landorus has 148 EV's that can best invested in defenses. Using 104 EV's at +2 results in 528 speed, this outspeeds almost everything viable in the tier. Psychic should never be mentioned as it is almost on a gimmick level. It looses coverage against more important pokes than Psychic would hit.

    At the end of the day Landorus is a fantastic OU mon. The Rock Polish set can end games once the opposing team is weak enough, and the Ebelt set can do the same. The key here is weakening the opponents team enough. Then again this could be said about any pokemon out there. Landorus has too many checks as it is. Teambuilding in OU doesn't scream out "I need a Lando-I counter". It doesn't over centralize teambuilding in any way, using it, or defending against it. The OU meta is stable as of now and any change is going to shake things up. We have the big X and Y coming out soon which will really shift the metagame. OU is "healthy" as it is now. It's hard to fight to ban something that REQUIRES prediction and a teammates to weaken it's checks to abuse. Oh and to all the people speaking of Hazards on the opposing pokes side of the field, the same thing is true with Landorus. 9 switch ins ASSUMING you don't get hit at all on the Ebelt set. And with ever-so-common Rough Skin users that can be limited. The RP set takes 10% off of every HP Ice. Given the checks that aren't even 2hko'd by that move it's already an easy 20% off and they can easily hit Landorus hard enough with a STAB move (even univested).
    Specially defensive Rotom-W can fight back with Hydro Pump, WoW, or Pain Split.
    252 Sp.A Gengar 2hko's after LO recoil or Rocks
    Uninvested Gyarados easily 2hko's. Univested (in defense) also takes 4 HP Ice minimum.
    Max HP Zong 2hko with Gyro Ball (Relaxed 0 speed IV's) after +2. 3hko's Ebelt. Takes 3 Focus Blasts
    Uninvested Cress 2hko's with Ice Beam. Damage isn't even worth putting here.
    This list goes on. These Landorus "checks" perform at a very high level against Landorus with little to no penalty.

    It's as simple as figuring out what the set is. Once that is done it's easy. These checks are way too common for Landorus to be considered broken, and I once against must reiterate. Is banning a pokemon who's teammates are essential to it's sweeping ability really the way to go? Is it just to ban Landorus because it does it's job well? I mean think about it. The same arguments that are made for Landorus' brokenness can be used for every other pokemon in the game.

    EDIT:Scratch the 148 EV's thing. Barely changes anything.
    EDIT 2: Bold is directed at Luck>Skill in regards to Gengar being a good check.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  12. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    9
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    Did you even read Luck>skill's post lol:


    And answering this:
    Bulk Up Breloom sucks and is 2HKOd by 2 Focus Blast/Focus Blast + Earth Power, Rotom-W IS 2HKOD BY FOCUS BLAST STOP MENTIONING IT D***IT, both me and Luck>skill addressed Gengar in earlier posts, Latis hate U-turn, Virizion does not even belong, and Alakazam can revenge anything except maybe Choice Scarf Breloom and Shell Smash Cloyster, due to their abilities to break Focus Sash. Basically, you are left with a very select number of counters that special Landorus cannot get around unless it switches out, like TornT did: Gyarados, Bronzong, Blobs, Cresselia, and the Blobs. Repeating something does not make it true. If you are going to continue stating that Landorus is not broken, do not keep to keep ignoring some of the things I already said; that is omission bias.
     
  13. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2012
    Messages:
    872
    Likes Received:
    652
    non-Icy Wind Gengar loses, Rotom-W loses, and the others (in perfect condition) win. Except for SpDef Latias, that always wins. But your list of 'counters' is more 1 counter and 6 checks.
    Altough SpDef Latias is only seen on Stall teams.

    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 117-138 (44.82 - 52.87%) -- 22.27% chance to 2HKO
    Guaranteed with SR

    Also @.Rawr!, Rotom-W still dies with Lefties, as does Virizion. U-Turn gets you through your most used Counters, so I fail to see that we shouldn't ban that. The list of faster Pokes that can kill really isn't that long either. Keldeo, Viri, Latis, HP Ice Alakazam, HP Ice Jolteon, Tornadus, Mienshao, Weavile, Starmie. 4UUs, one poke that dropped to UU. I prolly forgot a few. All but Virizion, Latis and Keldeo (lol) are OHKOd.

    And Hannah, when you set a lot of pokemon could set up on Landorus-I, I could only think of Calm Mind Latias, DD Nite (who can set up on practically everything with Multiscale), Nasty Plot + Baton Pass Celebi and Calm Mind Keldeo. So yeah the whole point about that Modest LO is easy to set up at is somewhat strange in my opinion.
     
  14. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2012
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    16
    PO Trainer Name:
    Day Healer
    Okay, im gonna let clear some things for the discussion: Don't mix the RP set with the U-turn set.

    - If Landorus is using Rock Polish set, it needs waste a turn using RP, meaning the counter (being it Gyarados, Cresselia, Chan/Blissey, Gengar, Bronzong, Rotom-W, spe.def Latias, spe.def Celebi, Virizion) can be sended in that turn, and obviously Landorus can't OHKO (or 2HKO) neither of them, while the counters threat/stall Landorus in return.

    - If Landorus is using a U-turn set, sure it's more difficult to counter, and Celebi/Lati@s will fail again it, but U-turn means he isn't sweeping anymore. U-turn is an excelent move, i give u that, but Landorus isn't the only owner of the move, there is scizor which is a headhache, in UU tier there are Mienshao and Darmanitan which are beasts with that move, but it don't make them broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  15. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    9
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    It makes me mad when people keep mentioning things I already proved to not be counters (aka Virizion and Rotom-W) keep getting mentioned. I did the calcs and they get 2HKOd after Stealth Rock. Stop mentioning them.

    Also, do you really think TornT attempted to sweep if someone sent out Specially Defensive Jirachi/Skarmory? Genesect when someone sent out Heatran? Excadrill when someone sends out Quagsire? Or Blaziken when someone sent out Jellicent or Slowbro? What makes you think Landorus is going to stay in on his checks/counters? And there are only 5 things that wall it, 3 or which are not even common.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  16. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    11
    Bro, you realize that hitting two Focus Blasts in a row is a 50/50 right? So, Latis do not check coz Landorus always predicts right or because they fear U-Turn? Alakazam remains a check, even if u do not like it while Gyarados did NOT even check Torn-T if Rocks were down. Bronzong, Chansey, Cresselia and Rotom-W are more than decent soft counters. Virizion can take a hit and ko with HP Ice, therefore its a check. Even Skarmory is a soft check to Landorus, it can take a FB and give some pain with its BB (which puts landorus under 50% after SR). There are also Gengar, Zapdos, just how many checks and counters does one pokemon need in order to not be broken? All of the above pokemon, excluding Gengar, are commonly in stall, semi stall and balanced teams - i think there is enough variety to choose from.
    Plus, it is not like Landorus has an easy time switching in on anything apart from Hippowdon unless predictions start (or a pokemon that is mono attacking with elec/ground or fighting).
    Really, get your facts together, just because a pokemon is 2hko doesnt mean that it isnt a check when the attacker has to play a 50/50 game coz of an inaccurate move and, ofc, predict the switch and pick the right move.
    It also doesnt mean that because Lando carries HP Ice that a Scarf Salamence cannot switch in on it - in fact, if Landorus doesnt pick HP Ice, the Lando user is in a bad position. Ofc, the above requires prediction from the Salamence user but, I can claim that the Salamence user predicts correctly all the time, cant I? This is what you have been doing the entire time in this thread (and many more).


    EDIT to your above post alfalfa: How many counters does a powerhouse need to have? If it had more than 5 then it wouldnt be a powerhouse. Terrakion's counters are Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T, Skarmory, Slowbro, Cresselia. Keldeo's counters are: Amoonguss, Jellicent, Tentacruel (soft one), Bulky Latias, Rotom-W (really shaky), Cresselia. Sheer Force Landorus counters are: Chansey/Blissey, Bronzong, Bulky Latias (soft), Cresselia, Gyarados and Rotom-W (shaky/good check).
    Where is the problem?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  17. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    276
    PO Trainer Name:
    Blitz
    No, it does not need to waste a turn boosting. It can attack right off the bat, just like any other set up sweeper that anticipates and predicts a switch in to a counter.

    Yes, prediction is a two-way street, but if anything, a Landorus user with U-turn with almost always have the upper hand and thus momentum, making prediction MUCH easier for the Landorus user.
     
  18. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2013
    Messages:
    260
    Likes Received:
    9
    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
    So let's mention Flying types like Mantine and Articuno as counters to Landorus. If Salamence can beat out Landorus with prediction, why not use Mantine and Articuno? You are taking the argument into a slippery slope against your favor.
     
  19. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    130
    PO Trainer Name:
    SheerForceGatr/Bulba
    These two remain soft checks. Nothing has changed. Assuming Stealth Rocks on one side means assuming it for the other too. That means more damage for Landorus making it even more susceptible to priority moves.

    Even though he can predict a check coming in, most checks can deal with Landorus even easier if he's unboosted (in terms of speed), but please stop bringing prediction into this discussion. Prediction is a soft way to argue for or against something. A Landorus with U-Turn does have the upper hand when it comes to momentum more often than not, but you also have to realize a Landorus with U-Turn means either a physical or Ebelt set. All you have to do is go from there and proceed to check Landorus throughout the duration of the match. U-Turn isn't much of a prediction move anyway. You don't have to predict using U-Turn. And again you bring up prediction, ease of prediction is determined by many factors. You can't assume all battler think the same way and/or have the same levels of prediction. Prediction is impossible to argue for or against so please stop bringing it up. That does not only go to Blitzmirin, but it goes to Nikitas too when bringing up Mence.

    Although Nikitas was "wrong" in bringing up that example of prediction, you and many other users have used prediction as part of an argument for Landorus being banned (and some against it too).

    Let's not let this get too heated guys. It's not that serious
     
  20. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    237
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    I thought we already eliminated the whole predicting U-turns deal.

    It can outspeed and U-turn on Celebi and Cress. Celebi has to recover on the same turn (since U-turn does a swell amount of damage but not enough to KO most bulky sets) and Cresselia is generally unphased by it thanks to it's amazing defenses. But if you're bringing up the more used RP set then these two bring a hard stop to it.

    Lati twins on the other hand can fire off a free hit behind the comfort of resistances and speed before Landorus-I can get to U-turn. They can even opt for a specs surf (which Landorus-I isn't planning on taking) which can do a crap ton of damage to your supposed Tyranitar super trapper.

    If you run RP, you lose to a handful of well set checks and general priority. If you run U-turn you lose out on your speed boost which leaves you revenge killed by a lot of threats in OU.

    Don't go to theorymonning please. Surprise factor counts for little on Landorus since physical sets are generally outclassed and scarfed sets don't as hard.

    Like I said, if you're implying that Landorus can always U-turn on the predicted switch then that's just shoddy arguing. Let this whole deal of prediction go.
     
  21. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    The fact of the matter is that Landorus doesn't have any of the traits that make a Pokémon broken: it's not insanely powerful, it's not insanely bulky, it's not overcentralising and its presence doesn't make it impossible to use a particular playstyle. Having no safe switch ins is a poor argument too - if that made a Pokémon broken, we'd have banned virtually every sweeper and wallbreaker in the tier. Forming a good core with Tyranitar doesn't make it broken either. Example: Volcarona and Calm Mind Gothitelle. Chansey, Blissey, Jellicent and Tentacruel wall Volcarona to hell and back outside sun. Gothitelle can come in on anything they do (unless Jellicent happens to be using Shadow Ball, which is VERY rare), trap them, Calm Mind in their face while Resting off Toxic and smash them with Psyshock. That doesn't make Volcarona broken does it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2013
  22. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just to clear things up, you HAVE to discuss landorus with ttar+keldeo support. Otherwise you are arguing a situation that just doesn't happen in practice.

    Kingdra by itself isn't broken, add rain and it is.
    Excadrill by itself isn't broken, add sand and it is.
    Landorus by itself (possibly) isn't broken, add pursuit/overloading support and it (possibly) is.

    And what if there is a broken CORE in the metagame? Just because it is more than one pokemon it should be left as a problem? If something is perceived to be broken it must be eliminated from the metagame, plain and simple.
     
  23. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    130
    PO Trainer Name:
    SheerForceGatr/Bulba
    Not true at all. Landorus doesn't play any better on sand teams than it does regular teams. The only reason it is placed on sand teams is because Tyranitar can deal with most of its checks (running Hippowdon with it is virtually useless). You used bad examples. Kingdra and its Swift Swim buddies literally FORCED you to run opposing weather or else you lose. It didn't need to set up as it would wreck 90% of whatever was on your side of the field. Along with other Swift Swimmers. The STAB + Speed Boost proved too strong for OU. Kingdra wasn't banned. Swift Swim was. Excadrill FORCED you to run a Skarm and/or opposing weather because at the end of the day Skarm was the only thing that could really handle Excadrill with the Speed Boost. That plus SD and this thing just straight demolished teams. Those two over centralized the metagame and were at the end of the day very bad. Landorus is like a weaker version of Excadrill and the strategy of Swift Swim. Landorus-I actually functions quite well in the other weathers (minus hail) and weatherless teams. The only benefit it gets from sand is a great partner in Tyranitar If we're going to go on a talk about broken cores we can go elsewhere because there are plenty of those we could discuss but we are not doing so just because of the fact that this isn't a discussion of the core. This is a discussion of a pokemon. Not a core. Plain and simple.

    EDIT: If we have to discuss a pokemon in combination with others, or with overwhelming support and 100% prediction it's simply not broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
  24. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    11
    @Celebi, I used prediction as an arguement just to show people how stupid it is to say that Latias isnt a check because Landorus carries U-Turn. Even if it does, it actually has to pick that instead of its other 3 moves, which requires prediction and so, you cannot fucking argue about it. Long story short, prediction and player skill are NOT to be accounted for a pokemon's capabilities and seeing as the suspect is about Landorus, not Landorus and User, please stop referring to it.
     
  25. MikeDawg

    MikeDawg New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    First of all, I never said anything about landorus and sand.

    Second of all, your kingdra point is a complete strawman argument.

    Impact of the pokemon has no relevance in this current discussion (between the two of us). The point is that a multitude of ubers had other pokes factoring in to make them broken.

    Hell, you said it yourself. Kingdra and its BADDIES are too overwhelming. Kingdra by itself can be beaten by ferrothorn and the like.

    "But oh. Something else can take out ferrothorn"

    Yeah and something else can take out latias/celebi/blissey/starmie too. Except that one pokemon also prevents then from switching out.

    And the fact that you are mentioning rain (politoad) and other swift swimmers just shows how much you don't buy into your own argument: support is support is support and it can't be discounted whether that support is pursuit or rain and an entire team of swift swimmers

    And besides, how is lando not FORCING you to run multiple checks so that you aren't decimated by ep or swept by rp?
     
  26. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    888
    "You have to discuss landorus with ttar+keldeo support." Yeah. Let's just go ahead and choose the highest person on the ladder who uses landorus and suspect is entire team at that point. Mentioning another pokemon alongside a suspect is fine, but any more than that gets ridiculous. A good, effective core is simply that, nothing more. Kingdra+anything isn't broken, SWIFT SWIM+DRIZZLE is. And following the logic of this point, we need to ban both tyranitar and landorus as a pair, not only landorus individually. Claim slippery slope all you want, but if the pair is that damn effective, then the individual pokemon in them both need banning.

    So, stop using "LandoTar" as a focal point for arguments. It's okay to bring it up but saying pursuit tar hinders switching is just grabbing at reasons to ban something, regardless of whether lando's broken or not. This is reminding me of the flawed logic in the Sawk discussion in NU.
     
  27. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    540
    How about because most of us are building regular teams and not being decimated by EP or swept by RP? a regular OU team simply will have checks to Landorus, by its nature. Because many pokemon that check Landorus are regular and good team members.
     
  28. Weiss

    Weiss Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nope, only one, because that would break up the pair. I don't think it's of influence here, but say that a pokemon is completely broken outside of one or two counters and that those two counters are beaten 100% of the time by another pokemon. At that point, the duo would be so efficient that you could entertain banning the overpowered one of the two.

    That said, I don't see that being the case here. Pursuit ttr does not automatically pick off Landorus's counters. So, with that said, I do support those who would like to keep Ttr out of this discussion.

    THIS. I hardly ever have a serious problem with Landorus and yet I don't prioritize checking it when building teams. This is mostly because of what Aurist mentioned. I just looked over my 4 most recent teams and they all have at least two things that check RP Landorus and regular Landorus. It has too many common checks to be considered uber imo. Band Scizor, Band Dnite, scarf or special toed, scarf Jirachi with ice punch, Latios, Balloon Heatran, Gengar, Rotom-w, Chomp, ....That's just what I got by looking at the top 20 of the statistics page. These all prevent you from just putting your Landorus out there and going to town.

    Sure, I'll concede that Landorus can beat these pokemon if they have already been damaged but that usually also works in the opposite direction. The RP set on the other hand is an entirely different animal that always needs a window to set up which isn't easy when so many pokemon threaten to KO it when it uses the RP or nearly KO it and then have it be revenged by a priority user.

    It fits squarely into the "decent to very good" pokemon slot but it just doesn't get there to be Uber.

    EDIT: Because, imo, this thread has been overwhelmed with theorymonning, I will only use teams with Landorus until this matter is decided. I'll document my results with the pokemon. I'm not going to record every battle, so I do expect a little bit of good faith from you guys. If my win rate really does explode and I notice that Landorus is hardly ever stopped I will concede that it is uber based on pure unadulterated experience. I will be using the sub, u-turn and RP set on various teams.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
  29. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,123
    Likes Received:
    110
    Did some testing today with Rock Polish Landorus + Choice Band TTar. Nowhere near as powerful as all the Broken camp are screaming. Once the opponent's team was heavily weakened it was very effective, but to be honest I've had equally good results with Salamence/Dragonite/Volcarona. Not needing Rapid Spin was nice, but again Swords Dance Scizor and Terrakion are also deadly late game and they don't need Rapid Spin either. Also, Tyranitar can't handle Landorus's checks as well as some people are claiming.
    Latios: Specs Draco Meteor is a clean 2HKO, as is Specs Surf.
    Jellicent: If Tyranitar doesn't get burnt by Scald, or Jellicent doesn't have Will-O-Wisp, Tyranitar wins. Both are big ifs.
    Celebi: Smashes specially defensive Celebi, gets smashed by offensive and Nasty Plot Celebi (granted the latter is rare).
    Chansey: Hates Toxic, but Superpower does OHKO. Chansey will lose without Protect.
    Gyarados: Yeah, good luck taking that Waterfall
    Politoed: In Sandstorm, Tyranitar can beat Scarf Politoed one on one, but loses to Specs. If it avoids a Scald burn, it beats defensive ones too. If Politoed carries Focus Blast, Tyranitar loses.

    I honestly don't see what all the broken lobby are going on about. It's one of OU's most threatening Pokémon, but broken? IMO it's not no different than any of OU's other set up sweepers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2013
  30. Weiss

    Weiss Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    I fully agree. In my testing so far it does not exceed the results of any other set-up pokemon.
     
  31. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    532
    Likes Received:
    130
    PO Trainer Name:
    SheerForceGatr/Bulba
    I spoke about Kingdra because you brought it up. I even corrected you by saying Kingdra wasn't banned. swift swin with drizzle was. that stab and speed combo overwhelmed the metagame hence why they banned. running landorus doesn't force you to run opposing weather or pressure you to win weather wars in order to give yourself a chance at winning. this is also partly why i mentioned lando in sand and other weather. you couldn't build a regular ou team without having multiple checks to every swift swim threat, or running weather to oppose them hence why i brought that up. lando is completely different compared to those to. normal teambuilding handles landorus perfectly fine. its not a threat that most people build teams to specificall check/counter. its sweeping ability is no better than any other pokemon built to set up sweep or use ebelt. the thing with the other pokes and their teammates is that they litteraly forced you to run opposing weather or multiple checks. they arent comparable because landorus doesnt force that. sorry for lazy caps and such. at school on my phone during luncch
     
  32. JinLong88

    JinLong88 Golden Dragon

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2011
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    11
    Landorus-I only has one effective resistance (fighting) and is susceptible to many neutral attacks of all sorts of types, such as rock, psychic, grass and steel. Because of this, many of Landorus-I checks are effective OU Pokemon in general and can be used to also check a variety of other top OUs. So I don't think LI is overcentralizing teambuilding.

    Nice post, I agree. I'll add that Celebi can stay alive by baton passing out of Tyranitar, and could potentially even pass a Nasty Plot boost to a Pokemon like Expert Belt Keldeo, which would destroy Tyranitar and Landorus and quite likely dent the rest of their team.
    Also a dual-type offensive Pokemon like Terrakion can force Tyranitar out and dent Landorus with a move like Stone Edge.

    Since it's pretty much proven that Tyranitar+Landorus-I is far from broken, let's try not to discuss Tyranitar any more.

    When seen in the big picture, Landorus-I has so many factors to deal with to set up a sweep.
    It can't tackle all these factors with one moveset, and it needs teammates that can BOTH provide it with defensive synergy AND heavily weaken the entire opponent's team. Thus I don't see it as broken.
     
  33. Weiss

    Weiss Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am wondering when we will hear from the decision makers because the thread has been on for quite some time.
     
  34. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    237
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    Hahaha Pokemon, smh.

    Oh hey non-purple post.

    Time to shitpost again! I feel like the best counter for Landorus is Air Balloon Pikachu. Is that good enough?

    Reading over the points in the thread, there any many points from both sides of the argument that I feel like need to be addressed since it sidetracks the thread too much.

    First is that usage does not account for viability. Just because a Pokemon isn't as commonly seen in the tier doesn't mean something is much less of a threat. Same way goes for checks and counters, that even if their usage can be better, it does not exclude them as a threat towards the Pokemon.

    People seem to misinterpret this a lot.

    Just because Charizard can switch in to most of Landorus' moves doesn't make it a viable check. There are numerous factors within OU that you have to account for like hazards, x4 weakness, lack of base stats and getting KO'd by nearly everything.

    Cresselia on the other hand, an amazing wall with titan-like defenses checks Rock Polish Landorus-I amazingly yet has incredibly low usage.
    (03:14:03) Finchinator: cress is actually very good
    (03:14:04) Finchinator: especially on sun stall
    Cresselia is an amazing Pokemon and can stand up to one of the sets to Landorus while still functioning within it's role in OU for sun stall.

    I'm just making a point on how just because x threat is lesser seen in OU compared to Landorus doesn't exclude it from the threat list immediately.

    Now, I'm not immediately jumping to conclusions that since Cresselia can counter it, means it's not broken. U-turn Landorus is also an option. It handles Cresselia and Celebi well by keeping momentum and hitting it for super effective.

    The thing is, U-turn Landorus isn't Rock Polish Landorus. As a lot of people have stressed numerous times within the thread, both sets have their equal share of counters and checks. The feat is finding out which set is which, people can argue this is what tips Landorus-I to be broken but I'll have to say that finding out which set a certain threat is running should apply to majority of the Pokemon in OU. The choice between U-turn and Rock Polish is integral because that one move completely changes the role of Landorus within the game. The same can be said about, Keldeo and even Tyranitar for example. Keldeo can run HP Bug with an Expert belt set to attempt to patch up getting countered by Celebi, but gets countered by Jellicent since you lose out on HP Ghost. Tyranitar running a generic scarf or banded set gets walled hard by Skarmory (this is just a top of the head so excuse me for not finding the best counter) , but if you opt for a mixed Fire Blast set it immediately remedies that and leaves your opponent with one less Pokemon.

    I am not going to go in depth with U-turn and prediction. This is a two-way road that has been brought up more than enough. If you can predict my switches, I can predict your attacks. Shoddy arguing if you think you can always U-turn on my Pokemon providing perfect momentum while keeping Landorus healthy.

    Another argument that I'd like to bring up are the Latis. I think it's dumb that your whole explanation for them are
    >ttar
    >pursuit
    >can trap
    >lati pls
    Both are amazing checks that can switch into most of Landorus' moves and either choose to recover or fire off Surfs or Draco Meteors. The thing is, Landorus and Tyranitar share the water weakness, and both take Neutral from dragon. That means if you argue that Tyranitar can just switch 100% of the time, take a hit, then immediately neuter the threat then you're mistaken. Staying in on either of Latios' choice of attacks means a timely death. Switching out to Tyranitar means taking either a Surf or Draco Meteor which it won't appreciate at all. Same goes with Latias except she has the liberty of running Substitute to alleviate the burden of prediction against Rock Polish sets.

    Also, don't say you can U-turn on my predicted sub because I can surf on your "predicted U-turn."

    An issue tackled as well is keeping Landorus healthy. I'd like to say the norm is Life Orb Sheer force Landorus since all other sets are notably inferior to it. Landorus has to rely on HP Ice with LO recoil to cover it's flying threats. A handful of these can outspeed and either stall out or force it out because it's limited to the recoil damage from a non-stab Base 70 move.

    Switching it in is also a problem. Luck already argued that you can use a slow Voltturn to ease it's way in. Yes, it gets in safetly at the cost of a teammate taking a hit. Landorus still has it's checks, thank you. So it's going out either way.

    Landorus is also exaggerated offensively since there are some bulkier Pokemon that can revenge kill it and put a stop on a Rock Polish boosted rampage. Revenge killing it isn't only limited to faster choiced stuff or priority KOing. If you decide to attack you deal reasonable damage while having your Landorus taken out. Which isn't the exact purpose of the Rock Polish set. Switching out loses your entire Rock Polish momentum giving your opponent the upper hand. But yeah, I think we can all agree that OU is becoming more of a revenge kill metagame especially with a newly introduced Analytic Starmie.

    People said earlier that Landorus isn't broken but saying it's not healthy for the metagame is the reason it should be banned. What? Really. That just shows how selfish your decision is towards the tier. You acknowledge it as a non-broken threat, but want to ban it for the sake of trimming down the threatlist in OU?

    I'm sleepy and I guess I need to get this post out so yeah summary post! For those that don't want to read my post. So I have to say that

    Landorus-I doesn't deserve to be banned.



    If you want my unpopular opinion which I know I will be called out for then here it is
    People have to accept the fact that OU is too fucking diverse. A lot of people will probably misinterpret this but this is my take towards the tier.

    I don't mean this in the sense of playstyle. Clearly more offensive teams are prevalent in the tier and majority of the time it muscle it's way through. But that does not mean all other playstyles are extinct. There's a shit load of things you can run that can be equally as viable in the tier that you just refuse to run to maintain the image of a still metagame.

    There's just too many damn threats in OU. I think we're past the point of a metagame held bound by a group of Pokemon like Gen 4.

    It's not just Team Politoed vs Team Ninetales vs Team Tyranitar. You've got sub branches of each, going to different playstles from Rain offense to Rain stall, Sand Offense, Sand stall, Sand balanced, Sun offense. But there are other things that people dismiss because they want to retain a steady meta. You have Weatherless offense, Baton pass, Trick room, Hail even, Running 6 dragons or whatever.

    A lot of lower tiered Pokemon are spilling over to overused since despite their lack of usage, they still work. Amazingly in fact. Landorus is just another one of these that I personally think people overhyped to have a false sense of control over what's happening in OU.

    Generation 6 is coming and it'll be a clusterfuck because of Fairy typing, more damn Pokemon, and Mega evolutions. If you think this is bad, then good luck adapting to the next generation.
     
  35. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,551
    Likes Received:
    602
    PO Trainer Name:
    Luck>Skill
    you act as if all the lati@s were LO recover

    specs / scarf latwins lose to Landorus unless you successfully manage to send them on earth power all the time (and even then SR will wear them down eventually, to the point where a Rock Polish sweep is possible)

    obviously most OU pokes have ways to baitkill their counters, some are more orthodox than others (I wouldn't bring mixtar as example tbh, think about surfchomp, hp ice terrakion, belt EQ latios, passho berry volcarona, hp ice / eq venusaur, x-scissor mixed virizion, ebelt mew and other stuff I can't think of as it's 3 AM but you most likely got the point)

    the problem here is that u-turn, unlike hp ice terrakion / surf chomper etc isn't situational, it works about as well as the rock polish version, it isn't some obscure gimmick or w/e that lets you beat some of your counters / checks, u-turn IS part of the main moveset, actually I'd say U-turn is more threatening than rock polish in this metagame, but that's another story

    you seem to just be missing the point where while stuff like hp bug keldeo hp ice terrak surf chomp etc are extremely situational and might end just being useless in that moveslot there (if your opp doesn't bring celebi, while belt keldeo is a very nice pokemon, loses a lot of its usefulness per se, as another hp would most likely be more useful), u-turn is about as good as an option as rock polish for a myriad of reasons, obviously you could counter-argue that sometimes you wish you had rock polish instead of u-turn, but that generally comes from a poor choice in your team / wrong game development rather than the set being situational per se
     
  36. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    19
    PO Trainer Name:
    NidoTheKing78
    I looked at this over and over for eight minutes trying to find a counterargument and I can't. You win Hannah :)

    Anyway, we only have two months left of Gen 5 OU and Landorus isn't OVERLY-breaking the metagame, so a ban isn't worth the effort as of the moment now.

    Yeah, it may be broken to people, but is it really an emergency-ban?
     
  37. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,806
    Likes Received:
    276
    PO Trainer Name:
    Blitz
    It isn't an emergency ban, 2 months being quite some time before Gen 5 "ends". Some people do feel that Landorus should be Uber (by a variety of reasons I won't mention since most arguments have been refuted many times).

    Not like it matters since most of the community feels that it should stay in OU. I hope we get a statement from the tier leaders soon to see how the ladder reqs are going to be / other.
     
  38. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    Sorry for the delay guys - real life is getting the in way of us sorting this out.

    This topic is gonna have to remain open for another week.
     
  39. marth-

    marth- Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    53
    Okay let me handle this, Landorus is not broken stop banning everything!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    first of all his speed in this meta may be okay but considering all of the common threats it really isn't great, landorus seems broken because most of the ladder sucks (just being honest) and they don't prioritize their threats/checks correctly and landorus is good at taking advantage of that,

    half of the people i see here have no knowledge about this game if anything, breloom should be looked at way before landorus fair enough it doesn't sweep everybody but its pretty much an instant sleep and can do plenty of other shit after that.

    But lets drop the hostility and i'll break it down, Landorus is one of the main solid ground types in the game and he is an important tool to keep a lot of different Pokemon in check such as Jirachi who walls so much already, i honestly believe it is just bad threat priority/team building that is making landorus seem so overpowered.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2013
  40. Weiss

    Weiss Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2011
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree with Marth. It's easy to build a team that folds to Landorus if you don't keep it in mind but that goes for so many other pokemon as well. It's not like it outclasses/pushes out other special sweepers, there's a lot of variety. I especially agree with the Breloom comment, if anything that is one of the pokemon that should be looked at before Landorus, as with a lot of other pokemon as well.

    And yes, we need more things that scare Jirachi <_<
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.