[BW2] Genesect Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Jul 21, 2013.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Due to many users discussing Genesect in Monotype as of late, I felt that it would be appropriate to create a proper suspect discussion (with a less biased original post...). Discuss the sets currently in use in Monotype and the current checks and counters to it. Theorymonning sets that one has never used/seen in action will result in infractions. Only discuss Genesect's impact on Monotype and not how it affects other metagames.

    After the discussion ends a vote will take place that will require sending in screenshotted rank and paragraphs. The exact details will be in the voting thread.
     
  2. Princess Luna

    Princess Luna Resident Pegasister

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    oh Genesect
    ooooh boy Genesect
    well this thing is a pretty good scout and offensive threat all on its own.

    the most common set would be scarf normally however i have seen a lot more RP Genesects i guess bluffing the scarf (for this reason <3 Scarf Victini) and with Shift Gear being implemented soon i can see it's popularity rise
    now while you could say it ahs a spot on every monobug team ever... so does everything else. No seriously i was in a mono tour (and laddered a bit after) and fought 5 consecutive monobugs ALL WITH THE SAME POKEMON EXACTLY SET PER SET POINT PER POINT
    it was literally Forre/Scizor/Volca/Gene/Yanmega/Heracross exactly so throw the guaranteed spot on a team out the window kthxbai.

    Do i think it's broken? slightly i mean it does give a flying neutrality to bugmono and same with rock but rock is uncommon and conversely it gets shit on by Fire moves/Monofire (uncommon) mostly fire moves such as Victini/Chandelure/Heatran etc and while a scarf can remedy this it likely wont have the coverage to OHKO anything with a decent fire move and will immediately get slaughtered.

    however it can still be a force to be reckoned with after a download boost and a rock polish/shift Gear wiht LO or Expert belt nothing short of Heatran is going to put a stop to it so it can be very threatening if it sets up which isnt hard to do with its godly typing

    as for matchups with individual monos well Lets take bugmono first.
    Fire: gets shit on
    Flying: neutrality and ice beam make it an effective revenger
    Rock: uncommon and iron head can severely dent most things as well as ice beam killing the ground types

    as for Steelmono
    Fire: Heatran can usually help steelmono survive firemono but once its down Gene is just asking to be Barbecued
    Fighting: Bug typing can help it put up a good fight but lack of any SE coverage means itl likely go down before the opponent does though ice beam can take down breloom
    Ground: neutrality is useful and ice beam can take down most non bulky things

    so while it does provide a useful asset to bug/steel mono teams it isnt completely broken and can be quite easily taken care of.

    as for monos that are neutral to bug or steel they can usually fare pretty well (ele has flamethrower on things for example) against it
     
  3. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Most tour goers tend to just rip an RMT from the forums, I've noticed the same thing especially for Flying and Fighting in particular. Most don't really care to make a team.

    In terms of shift gear, I haven't seen any sets using it at all. I can't comment on this since I haven't seen it in action. I don't think it even makes up 5% of all the Genesects in Monotype glancing over the usage statistics. I doubt anybody has any experience with it.

    Simply destroying a Monotype or two doesn't really make a pokemon "broken" in Monotype. There are plenty of Pokemon that some teams of no answer for. Grass will never be able to have a check/counter to Volcarona. Steel won't in most cases if Volcarona carries HP Ground. And Psychic will always have a ridiculously tough time dealing with Yanmega. Same for Fire and just about any choice scarfed Water pokemon such as Keldeo or Starmie. Bottom line is, these Pokemon cripple other types just as much as Genesect can, it's nothing particularly new.

    Even types that Genesect has a super effective coverage move against such as Ground and Flying have checks or counters to it. Scarf Salamence and Scarf Zapdos are able to revenge Genesect after a Pokemon dies and almost always take Genesect down, or take down a predicted switch in (such as Heatran) with Earthquake. Ground can use Quagsire who has access to both Recover and Scald to deal damage and inflict a possible burn. Not to mention Scarf Garchomp can also revenge the scarf set. Dragon is able to use some of its faster members (Flygon, Salamence, Latios) to revenge the scarf set. Even if it's Rock Polish, Kyurem-B can come in, tank a hit with its bulk, and hit back hard with Fusion Bolt or Hidden Power Fire if the user opted for a Mixed set to kill steels. Most Monotype teams have a counter to the types they're weak to, such as Steel and Heatran or Flying and Landorus/Gliscor/Zapdos. As such, it's not so simple to plow through with a Scarfed Super Effective move.
     
  4. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Keep in mind I haven't updated due to apparent glitches and bugs with the new verision. The Shift Gear comment still stands. An all Physical Genesect isn't even optimal due to lackluster coverage, but Extremespeed is the ultimate revenging move, especially back up by a Life Orb
    Genesect is more broken in monotype than it was in OU due to the fact that all pokes must have a central type. Looking further in depth into the teams Genesect will be used on we can discover this. Genesect has an incredibly large movepool and can almost single handedly take out an entire team on most type. The base 99 speed is frustrating at times but even with this crippling weakness Genesect still finds a way to be a huge pain in the ass. For this post I'll be talking primarily about the scarf set because that is by far the most common. When Shift Gear (easily outclassing both Flame Charge and Rock Polish) is released Genesect just becomes more broken and runs an even more threatening mixed set.

    Scarfed sets generally run a combination of the following moves, U-Turn, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Explosion, Psychic, Iron Head, Bug Buzz and maybe even a Hidden Power. Base 120 offenses means he will be hitting hard even from an uninvested U-Turn. A download boost only furthers that power. Genesect even has respectable bulk with 71/95/95 defenses meaning he can take a few non-super effective moves (sometimes even STAB from pokes that don't invest heavily in offense). as stated above the 99 speed coupled with choice scarf makes Genesect an amazing revenge killer. And since this is monotype he can even sweep whole teams.

    Looking a bit further into the teams Genesect can be used on. Steel has weaknesses to Ground, Fire and Fighting. Anyone using Genesect and knowing Steel's weaknesses would use Psychic and Ice Beam as coverage moves. Ground and Fighting will have a hard time dealing with Genesect as he basically 0hk0's the entirety of both types with one of those moves. Scarf ensures that he will be outspeed nearly everything. Ground type don't carry much that can outspeed him (chomp being one but only if scarfed) and Genesect can surely dent anything switching into an Ice Beam. Being on a Steel team Genesect has many teammates that can set up Steath Rocks. That residual damage racks up upon switch ins and Genesect can slowly wear things down with U-Turn. If someone is super paranoid about Ground they can even run HP Grass to take care of the few pokes Ground has that can switch in (Gastro, Pert, and Quaggy to name a few). Steel types also have trouble with the Fighting type. Fighting doesn't have many checks for Genesect as he can take Mach Punches and deal heavy damage or KO most pokes with Psychic. Let alone he gets an Sp.A boost to further up his base 120 Sp.A. It's simply devastating. Infernape, Keldeo, and Mienshao are a few pokes tat actually have a chance at checking Genesect (maybe Conkledurr but Gene deal heavy damage to it). Now Fire just happens to be an exception. There really isn't much Gene can do to Fire teams just like most of the rest of Steel types. The problem with this is that Fire is almost never used so Genesect generally doesn't have to worry about having a coverage move for Fire.

    Bug types have a weakness to Flying, Fire, and Rock. Fire and Rock are almost never used so Genesect doesn't have to worry too much. Flying on the other simply doesn't need much. Genesect (outside of probably Cloyster and Ice teams) is Flying's worse nightmare. Gene always carries a coverage move to destroy Flying types (it generally tends to be Ice Beam).

    Now we look at all 17 types and see what Genesect can do to them
    Flying- Thunderbolt and Ice Beam destroy Flying. Genesect always carries at least one.
    Steel- If Genesect carries Flamethrower there isn't much Steel can really do to defend besides Tran. Defesnsive resistance.
    Bug- Again, Flamethrower destroys Bug easily. Volca is really the only thing Gene need to look out for as Scarf sets basically outspeed the rest. 4x defensive resist.
    Ice- Flamethrower makes ice look silly. Not much Ice can do here as STAB moves are not very effective and most pokes can't touch Scarf Gene.
    Psychic- U-Turn destroys Psychic. If Gene carries Bug Buzz he can almost sweep without switching out as he only need to watch for 100+ Scarfs and TR.
    Ground- Ice Beam takes out most ground types. What he can't KO he can dent.
    Fire- Gene can't really do much here but revenge kill with neutral attacks (not bad either). He is a great scouter/revenger/sash breaker.
    Fighting- Psychic destroys a majority of the pokemon easily. Again what he can't KO he can severely dent before being KO'ed.
    Water- Thunderbolt is the way to go here. Hits everything for hard for neutral or better damage (bar Volt Absorb Lanturn)
    Rock- Rock is a joke. It's never used anyway. Regardless Gene can revenge kill/scout/sash break well against Rock too as they are dreadfully slow.
    Grass- Ice Beam/U-Turn/Flamethrower/Bug Buzz pretty much destroy the entire type. If you aren't running one of those moves you're doing something wrong. Not to mention the defensive 4x resist.
    Electric- Revenge/Sash break/Scout (at this point I'm getting a little lazy)
    Ghost- Revenge/Sash break/Scout/ Defesnsive resistance.
    Normal- Revenge/Sash break/Scout. Defesnsive resistance.
    Dragon- Ice Beam destroys the entire type. If you aren't running Ice Beam on Gene you need to stop using it.
    Poison- Psychic demolishes the tier. If not Revenge/Sash break/Scout. Defensive immunity.
    Dark- U-Turn and Bug Buzz will do heavy damage to everything. Defesnsive resistance.

    And looking at all the types as a whole Genesect will always be able to Revenge/Sash break/Scout flawlessly. Nearly impossible to shut down and few types can reliably counter him. Every type has a few checks but Gene can play around that.
    With a simple U-Turn and Elemental Beams Gene can handle most types. Even is he isn't hitting super effectively he is hitting hard. Base 99 speed and a Scarf means you will only be outspeed if you're a higher base speed and scarfed with a positive nature. Only base 114 speed and higher (iirc) can outspeed with scarf and neutral nature. Everything in between NEEDS a positive nature to outspeed.

    All of this isn't even mentioning the Rock Polish set. After a +2 speed boost Genesect will detroy just about everything unless he lacks a coverage move, and even then he will still be doing hard damage. He has plenty of opportunities to set up and with a simple 3 elemental beams cause tons of havoc.

    A counter argument and Genesect is the inability to have a coverage move to hit everything super effectively. Sad thing is he doesn't need it. He is still the best Revenger Killer in monotype, one of the best scouts, and an excellent sash breaker.

    When you look at the most common types Genesect has a way to easily deal with all of them. Genesect has no trouble with any type in monotype and has the fluidity to fit many roles on a team. He can sweep, scout, revenge, and/or sash break and is damn near impossible to stop at any of this. Ranking 97th of 649
    Genesect is already one of the fastest pokemon in the game. If you don't think this is broken you are simply misunderstood.

    The Rock Polish set takes away at least half of what will usually revenge kill him and sweep even easier due to the ability to switch moves. There isn't much that isn't going to take a hit, especially after a Download boost. Stealth Rock support only adds to the devastation. Genesect's sheer unpredictabilty and movepool are what makes him broken. You fit Genesect into you team and give him moves that will benefit you the most. Whether that be adding something like HP ground for Heatran or Grass for Gastro/Quaggy/Pert. You don't make a team around Genesect, but Genesect around the team. His movepool ensures the fact that he can and will handle whatever you have trouble with.

    And I made my ow Bug team using those pokes. Never even looked on the forums. Types like that only have so many viable pokes and for Bug those are 6 of the if not the best pokes to use. Most monotype teams form in a similar fashion.

    The difference is Genesect cripples just about every type. Those pokes only one or even a few.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2013
  5. BeautifulMisery

    BeautifulMisery 無意味なうつ病

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    Yeah I know I'm new but I remember back when genesect was OU and that was not fun. I mean a scarf genesect usually ran ice beam/flamethrower/thunderbolt/U-turn and it was usually sent out first and download made it especially annoying so it would usually put a big dent in my game!

    In monotype it just annoying I mean I play mono dragon and that thing can OHKO or 2HKO most of my team including my latias and truthfully I find it just annoying and way to powerful for monotype or OU. I agree with Celebi on this one,genesect is broken.
     
  6. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    @ Celebi.

    Noting that Genesect gets Giga Drain by BW2 tutor, which is stronger than HP Grass and helps heal Life Orb recoil and hazard damage. Genesect still has to give up coverage since Giga Drain is specifically for the aforementioned threats you mentioned, and coupled with Rock Polish, it decreases Genesect's coverage.
     
  7. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Again, I don't think anyone has any idea how well this set even functions or what moves are usually carried on it. I haven't seen it on the ladder or in tours, even while spectating.

    You're making it sound like Genesect can carry every one of these moves. And U-turn only hits hard uninvested if it gets the attack boost, otherwise I have found that it is quite underpowering. 71/95/95 Defenses are nothing when you usually need to run a -(Sp)Def nature and are only a little bulkier than Infernape. As I said in my post before, every good monotype team will have an answer to scarf type spam. If it doesn't, it's doomed to fail on the ladder either way.

    Ground has Unaware Quagsire, an amazing anti setup Pokemon that can function well against many sweepers, including Genesect. Ground can outspeed with Garchomp or Scarf Landorus (which it doesn't even need to due to Quagsire). With all the U-turning you seem to think Genesect is doing to teams, you mention Stealth Rock. I would also like to mention that Steel isn't the only team with hazards and they will wear down Genesect just as quickly. HP Grass is an overall poor move choice... speaking that it gets Giga Drain. But even then, what coverage move are you dropping for Giga Drain? Losing Thunderbolt will give you no answer to Gyarados. Losing Ice Beam will let Landorus revenge you, not to mention just about every Dragon in Monotype as well. So Steel has a Pokemon to offensively deal Super Effective damage to fighting types and not get absolutely shit on every time, this is a problem because...? Not to mention, Genesect Choice-locked into Psychic is pure setup fodder for Gallade and Scrafty. Infernape, Keldeo, Mienshao, Hitmonlee, Infernape, Choice Band Breloom (with prior damage), Gallade, Scrafty, Terrakion... all these Pokemon can be used to revenge Genesect. So now you go to Fire, Fire is used much more commonly on the ladder than one would expect. Not to mention both Ghost and Fire have an absolute revenger for Genesect, Shadow Tag Chandelure.
    As I mentioned previously, while Flying doesn't have any perfect switch-ins, it does have revengers. And all of those revengers can deal massive damage to almost any switch ins to save Genesect. Fire and Rock while used less, are still common enough that they will be hurting any Bug team on the ladder or in tours who doesn't prepare.

    Now then, of everything you have said about Monotype, this is the one thing that bothers me the most.
    Flying has revenge killers as I said before.

    Steel has Heatran which is an amazing counter and Scarf Jirachi who can revenge it. Any Steel team without Heatran is horrible, no two ways about it.

    Bug, if Volcarona manages to get +1 on Genesect at any point in the match, it's GG Steel/Bug (especially if it has HP Ground).

    Ice... what you said is blatantly untrue. Ice has multiple Pokemon who can deal massive damage/set up on Gensect. Mamoswine (especially if Scarfed), can set up stealth rocks on a predicted switch or Earthquake and take Genesect out. Sashed Cloyster can Shell Smash and proceed to sweep the opposing team. Walrein and Regice can take a Flamethrower and proceed to SubProtect stall the entire opposing team to death. And let's not forget the incredibly bulky Kyurem(-B). I have never seen a half decent Ice team ever have trouble with Genesect.

    Psychic has many scarfed Pokemon such as Azelf, Starmie, Latios, Victini, and so on that can revenge Genesect. If Genesect doesn't lock itself into U-turn and KOs a pokemon, Wobbufett can come in and Mirror Coat it. Calm Mind Reuniclus takes pitiful damage even from a U-turn (assuming the user uses recover on that turn) and sets up all over it. Not to mention, if Trick Room gets set up, Genesect will be near useless until it ends. Alakazam can even carry sash HP Fire (which is also great against Bug in general) to counter the Rock Polish/Shift Gear set.

    Ground has Quagsire to wall all day. Garchomp and Landorus outspeed. Gastrodon can even take a boosted Ice Beam.

    Spamming Thunderbolt on Water is about as stupid as spamming Steel with Fire (actually, even worse since Steel has only one immunity). Water has several immunities such as Quagsire, Swampert, Lanturn, and Gastrodon, who are all excellent Pokemon even outside countering Gensect. Water even has Starmie and Keldeo who can outspeed. Jellicent is able to take even a +1 Thunderbolt and survive, and flat out wall an unboosted Thunderbolt. You also basically just said "Bar an amazing, viable counter".

    Rock is probably where Genesect is the most useless. Don't kid yourself, it isn't taking any rock type moves. With the SpDef bonus from Tyranitar's infinite sand, Genesect struggles to even do anything to Monorock. Not to mention revenge killers like Terrakion, Archeops, and so on.

    Grass is able to run a sunny day whimsicott lead (maybe even with stun spore or Memento to cripple Genesect). Venusaur can proceed from there to annihilate the opposing Steel team with HP Fire and Earthquake. Genesect isn't helping Bug at all speaking Grass is weak to about anything Bug can through at it.

    Electric can trap Genesect with Magnezone, cripple with Thundurus-I, tank with Rotom-W, or revenge with Thundurus-T/Zapdos. Bug and Electric are evenly matched overall, while Electric has the advantage against Steel in almost every match.

    Ghost has Chandelure to trap Genesect and revenge from any choice locked move, or even the Rock Polish set. Scarf Genesect needs to predict around Ghost's amazing type diversity with Chandelure, Jellicent, Golurk, and so on.

    Normal has amazing walls, Chansey, Blissey, and even Miltank. Not to mention that Genesect's whole team can be screwed over by Scarf Imposter Ditto. Togekiss can tank an Ice Beam/Thunderbolt (especially if bulky) and retaliate with Thunder Wave or Flamethrower.

    Dragon has some of the best scarfers in the tier (hint hint, they're the reason we have a limit on it now). Salamence, Flygon, Latios, Garchomp, and so on are all amazing counters to Scarf Genesect. Kyurem(-B) and Kingdra can tank a hit and retaliate with a powerful STAB or coverage move such as HP Fire on Kyurem(-B). I've even seen multiple unconvention Pokemon work such as Eviolite Zweilous who can OHKO with Fire Fang.

    Any Poison team without Drapion is terrible. Drapion can trap Psychics with its immunity to Psychic and destroy with pursuit. It can do the same to Genesect, although it will take longer due to Genesect being resistant to it. Drapion can even set up with Swords Dance if it wants to. Scarf Gengar also serves as an excellent way to take Genesect down with either Focus Blast or Destiny Bond.

    Dark should never ever have trouble with Gensect. It has Zoroark who can lure in Genesect with a Pokemon that is Genesect weak (say Bisharp) and outspeed and fry Genesect with Flamethrower. Dark even has Houndoom who can tank a hit from the Rock Polish set without prior damage and OHKO with an appropriate Fire stab.

    So, as you were saying about Genesect destroying every type flawlessly? I'd also like to point out that Psychic is an incredibly uncommon move :x
    I'd also like to point out that you copy/paste the same generic comment that can be said about any scarf pokemon with U-turn or Volt Switch.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2013
  8. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    You pretend like Genesect can and will counter every single poke and every single type in the metagame. I'm not saying he can, I never did and I never will because he and no other poke ever will be able to. He has the ability to do so which is the argument I'm making. Whatever you need Genesect to do you can and will do and succeed at doing so. There are very few sure fire counters to Genesect. I never said it could destroy every type flawlessly. I said it fills it's role flawlessly. Psychic is not incredibly uncommon on Gene. Anyone running one on Steel should be running Psychic and it's still a great coverage move on a Bug team due to the resistance Fighting has. I would imagine a monotype "pro" such as yourself would know something like that.

    Dark should always have trouble with Gene. Gene is never going to stay in on Houndoom. Zoroark is a check. Most types have a good check to Genesect but that doesn't mean that Gene can't do work. Drapion isn't a counter at all. It's a check. Which we go to again. Checks. A pokemon can be broken and have checks (Thundurus in OU for example). The point is not that Genesect can't be checked but it plays at a very high level against every type even without absolutely flawless play.

    Genesect has and always will do work against Dragon teams so your argument there is irrelevant. No one will be keeping Gene in to hit Kyu-B or Kingdra. The RP set does work against everything but the two. You lose a poke practically everytime he goes in.

    Normal has walls sure. Normal has walls for everything (bar maybe Fighting). Scarf Imposter Ditto (copying Gene) wrecks Steel and Bug teams without Heatran and Volca respectively. Arguing about Ditto goes the same for every single poke in the monotype meta.

    Ghost plays well against Genesect hence why sweeping wasn't mentioned against Ghost. It's used for weaking pokes for others.

    Magnezone can only trap on proper prediction or as a revenge. As a result you will generally lose something before you trap it. Gene can still do it's job vs Electric teams. It should be a given to play cautiously with Genesect against Electric because of Magnezone.

    Your Grass argument is a testament to Grass vs Steel more so than Grass vs. Genesect. You seem to forget that there are other pokemon on Grass teams that can't do jack shit to Genesect. Arguing for one strat is bull.

    Did you even read what I said about Rock?

    Your Water argument falls in a similar way as your Grass argument. Genesect can still severely dent Water teams. Not even mentioning this Giga Drain Genesect can get. You saying it.

    Re-read what I said about Ground because you don't seem to get it.

    So what Psychic can revenge Genesect? Revenging means you lose something in the process. It can still almost 0hk0 the entire type. Reuniclus isn't even a problem unless you're running still which then it would be with or without Genesect because Steel in general has problems dealing with Reuniclus. Wobb revenges literally everything that can't 0hk0 (which is a whole hell of a lot).

    Literally every single Ice team I have played has had trouble with Genesect. Why? Because you don't do stuff like take on full HP Kyu-B or Mamo. Predictions are terrible arguments for anything. Don't use them. They can go either way.

    Volcorona is that way against all Bug teams and even Steel if it has HP Ground with or without Genesect. When it's Bug vs Bug the first Volcorona to set up is generally the winning team regardless of whatever else is on the team.

    Against Steel Scarf Rachi is meh at best against Steel teams and is a problem for Bug at all times. If someone switches Jirachi into Genesect scarf is the most obvious thing so you would not stay in. Heatran can get worn down by both types.

    Flying has revenge killers sure. RP beats Flying easily. Revenging means you lose a poke. That's assuming you leave Gene in to die (but against Flying no one does that).

    You are making Genesect out to be the wrong way. Losing a coverage move doesn't matter if you don't have trouble with a certain type. Genesect fills the role of taking those weaknesses away so it doesn't need to be able to hit everything. It's not built to counter everything in the metagame. It's never going to. Nothing is ever going to. But it can and always will fill it's role exceptionally well (to a Deo-S level). It has the ability to very well destroy every single type out there because of it's vast moveset. Saying using X move means you lose against X poke is a bad argument. If you are using X move over Y move it because you can live perfectly fine without Y move and can handle that threat easily. Genesect is not meant to handle everything in the metagame. It's meant to fill voids in your team. Genesect does the at an incredible level.

    Saying something can revenge Genesect is an awful argument because revenging implies that you lost a poke. You have the ability to switch out as a Genesect user because more often that not he is more important to your team is you're in a place where you can be revenged.

    I'm not making it sound that way. If you will read my post you will know that that isn't what I was making it sound like. If you read closely you can clearly see me talking about coverage moves it can carry. Clearly not saying or even implying that it can carry them all. I have and always will say what it has the ability to do. It has enough to take a hit when need be to set up. The power from U-Turn is subjective.


    Rock Polish beats all of the above except Gallade (already threatens both teams [Bug a bit less]), Scrafty (Slow even after a DD, already threatens Steel [Slightly Bug]), Nape loses unless sash, Shao loses, Keldeo and Hitmonlee can take a hit unless Sp.A boost (Keldeo has a small chance to live), Terrak is like Keldeo, Loom needs more than just SR to score an 0hk0. Terrak along with Keldeo have certain 0hk0 conditions. Again revenging implies you lose a poke which is furthering my entire argument.

    You're assuming again. Saying what CAN happen is not saying what IS or WILL happen(ing). Plus Gene lives 8 switch ins with Rocks on the field assuming it doesn't get hit (which is the case more often than not). I'm aware of what does and doesn't not have hazards. Electric is the only type that can't set them up without using Magic Coat. If you are dropping a coverage move for Giga Drain (as I will further reiterate) you are losing something you can do without. (And again) Genesect isn't ever going to counter everything. Stop acting like it is.

    Completely true, but again using the term REVENGING means you lost something the previous turn.

    So what have we here? A dead lock (assuming every Flying poke you send in to revenge Gene 2hko's [at most] your switch in). Gene also wins here. You are revenging meaning you lost a poke the previous turn. Even if we are talking about Bug (Steel handles Flying relatively well) teams there is more to deal with than just Gene. If he dents your team enough its job is done. I ladder a lot. Fire and Rock if used are used more often on the lower part of the ladder. Once you get high you stop seeing them (with exception of this one guy idr his name but he runs a pretty ballin' fire).

    Obviously. That's what they do so of course I'm going to mention it.

    Well obviously. If you aren't prepared for a type you are going to lose to it 9.9 times out of 10. Fire is almost an ultimate counter to Bug. Just as rock is. Just like Fire is almost an ultimate counter to Grass, or Rock to Ice. It happens. Bug isn't the greatest type. All types are bound to have types that they have trouble with. Rock and Fire just so happen to be the biggest ones so of course Bug will struggle.

    If you need to consistently lose at least one poke to take another out it is broken. If something can take out whatever it wants in the metagame it is broken. If something is as unpredictable and Gene is, it's broken. If you need to scavenge and find specific win conditions for a pokemon it is broken. The best monotype team is the one that handles every other type the best. No type will be flawless in coverage against every type, nor will any pokemon, but Genesect very clearly eases the workload on the rest of the team when used properly. Genesect is a glue. Use it to handle what your team has trouble with. Lacking a coverage move means nothing. Genesect doesn't need every coverage move. It just needs to cover what your team can't and because of it's amazing ability to do you Genesect is broken.

    You don't need to cover everything in monotype for Genesect to be successful. Just cover what you need and you will be ok. Genesect is fine losing a coverage move.
     
  9. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Argh Celebi you post too much I don't want to respond to everything
    But since I shouldn't be speaking too much here anyways, I just want to clarify some things I know for absolute facts:
    Ground...not really. Ice Beam is powerful but it doesn't OHKO EVERYTHING, especially since Ground is generally fully aware of this weakness and runs Water/Grounds to compensate. And Mamoswine, of course.
    Fighting, DEFINITELY not. Unless you're running Psychic I guess in which case you STILL don't OHKO everything because Scrafty and Gallade are "2 gud", as they say (not to mention you're sacrificing your coverage or your STAB >_>). If anything, in a Fighting mono Genesect barely contributes at all--there's so much stuff in there it can't OHKO that can easily OHKO back since it's one of the Bugs that doesn't resist Close Combat. And of course Stone Edge from any Fighting-type is sure to leave a significant dent, if not KOing.
    But it only has 4 moveslots ._.
    Speaking of it in a "singlehandedly" context, it cannot take out MonoWater, MonoFire, MonoSteel, MonoRock (MonoRock is actually pretty weak to MonoBug, but it's not because of Genesect), or MonoGhost AT THE VERY LEAST. All of them require certain conditions to be met by its teammates, and/or Genesect is just dead against them.
    Thing is, you "need" to cover a lot of things, and losing a coverage move means you'll miss out on one of those things :|
    The Rock Polish set especially is gonna have trouble, because without STAB Bug Buzz it becomes quite difficult to hit the things you can't hit super-effectively, and without Boltbeam you're losing way too much coverage to be worth it.

    Ice Beam is virtually always mandatory because what it covers is always "what you need". Same with Bug Buzz if only because you need the STAB to deal damage to anything you don't hit super-effectively; in this case, it's not the coverage, it's the power. Flamethrower is not always mandatory but it certainly is strongly recommended, considering it's your second-best weapon against Steels after Volcarona. That and Thunderbolt are usually the slots most acceptable to drop for Giga Drain, and that's for a set WITHOUT Rock Polish. WITH Rock Polish you're tempting fate if you run Giga Drain at all. Replacing Ice Beam lets Dragons screw you, replacing Bug Buzz lets everything neutral to Boltbeam and Giga Drain screw you, replacing Thunderbolt still gets you walled by Gyarados, Tentacruel, and also means you can barely hit Steels.

    Genesect CAN be fine losing a coverage move, but there's always something that can really hurt that you'll be missing out on. And when it comes to Giga Drain, the reward often isn't worth what you're losing for it.
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    I don't know why Genesect isn't banned yet

    Scarf w/ U-Turn/Flamethrower/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt

    -Spam U-Turn if facing Dark/Psychic/Grass
    -Spam the correct coverage move vs a particular type

    This gives Genesect the ability to be extremely effective against:
    Dark/Psychic/Grass/Flying/Ground/Dragon/Water/Steel/Bug

    Seriously, a team only carries 1-2 shaky at best "counters" to the type that it is weak against.
    Eliminate them if they even exist with your 5 other Pokemon, and just spam a +1 boosted move to sweep.

    Ban Genesect please
     
  11. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    I want to ask a legit question.

    How will this actually work when:

    1) sulcata is the only tier leader that cares about Monotype, and he's on the anti-ban side. Most people that have posted are on the pro-ban side.

    2) The ladder is pretty small, and putting reqs for this is going to be either easy to attain or impossible to attain. DW UU tier reqs and voters reflected the outcome of voting with a limited playerbase.
     
  12. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    The same way the Deo-S and Deo-D vote was done, discuss, vote, and count them up. There's no reason it would be done any differently. When the discussion has concluded, Avatar Roku, xdevo, and I will look over the votes and approve them as we did last time. I can assure you that both roku and xdevo play Monotype, so I'm not sure where the fallacy of me being the only one that cares comes from (they play other tiers as well and don't have the time to try for first like I do). Ladder requirements will probably be higher than last time purely because of the poor overall quality of most the votes received last time.
     
  13. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    The fallacy comes from the lack of posts in the threads (I think devo commented on Deo-S). I know they play other tiers and are busy with other parts of the site.

    Thanks for answering my question though =)
     
  14. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Just wanted to address this point, as it seems to be a somewhat common sentiment. First off, I am currently #15 on the ladder and have 150ish battles, and I very much enjoy and care about the tier. I realize that I don't post as much in these threads as sulcata, however I read through it and discuss with the other leaders on the server. Now I probably haven't posted as much as I should have in suspects, but I do read the threads, play the tier, and test the suspects, which I know xdevo does as well. So I'll post my thoughts on Genesect now.

    I'll start by addressing shift gear and other physical variant Genesect. Overall, they end up being quite underwhelming. Yes, it can revenge kill very easily with extremespeed, but other than that, it isn't going to get the coverage and kills that it has on its special sets. The scarf set is another beast entirely, however. Its coverage gives Steel and Bug a lot more options than they would have otherwise, and it can certainly U-turn out of a lot of Pokemon, or just hit the right coverage move button, and get +1 special attack off download. That being said, it isn't all that difficult to play around, as its underwhelming 99 speed lets it be taken out by opposing scarfers, Chandelure can trap and kill it, Magnezone can easily trap and revenge, and it has severe 4 move slot syndrome.

    So overall I am undecided on whether it should be banned or not, which is one of the main reasons I haven't posted, the other being that I can never manage to get my thoughts down the way I like so I scrap a lot of posts.
     
  15. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I'm still very divided on my opinion about Genesect, so don't be too hard on me :3. Anyway on it:

    In my experience, Genesect have 2 sets used commonly in monotype: the Scarfed one and the Rock Polish one (Shift Gear set don't count, because it's relatively new, and a bad set in general to say my opinion). I don't consider the Expert Belt set neither becos i didn't see any of these in the monotype ladder.

    - Now, the scarf set, the most popular of the 2, is also the set people could be most prepared for. My opinion is that this set isn't broken, while strong and moment-keeper, good players knows how handle it. Also, if Genesect is stucked in a bad move or predicted, the opponent can take advantage of the moment to setup with some poke.

    - Second, the Rock Polish set. Here is where i find Genesect could maybe be considered OP, for its sweeping abilities, but specially for its versatility. With a coverage which go from Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Giga Drain (idk why people say Giga drain is rare, actually lot of RP Gene runs it), Flamethrower to the rare Psychic, u just need pick what ur team lacks, and when specific threats are weakened, Genesect can start its sweep. Michael give a list of Types which Genesect is extremely effective:

    While I disagree about Steel type (which have heatran) and dark/psychic are weak more to the Scarf set, all the others types have serious problems if Gene carries the right moves. Maybe you can reply which Gene can't run all of these moves together, and u are right, i give u that, but the potential is still there. With a set like this:

    Genesect @ Life Orb
    Trait: Download
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rock Polish
    - Ice Beam
    - Flamethrower
    - Giga Drain / Thunderbolt

    can sweep teams.

    So in short, while i still think he isn't broken, banning him (specially for its RP set) will make the tier healthier.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  16. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    For the record, Ground's Gastrodon or other Water/Grounds and Mamoswine can fight toe-to-toe with Genesect, Water just has way too many Electric/Grass resistances overall to be an easy win, Steel's Heatran just doesn't really care (and also makes it very hard to switch out without losing another Pokemon), and lets Volcarona get boosts up in Bug which can basically lose you the game considering if you're using Genesect you're using either MonoBug or MonoSteel.
     
  17. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Even Dark can trip up Genesect as I said before with clever use of Zoroark to lull the Genesect user into thinking U-turn is a good option only to get hit with Flamethrower for a OHKO. Not to mention acquiring a Rock Polish/Shift Gear boost is very hard to pull off versus Psychic due to heavy hitters lurking around such as Azlef, Alakazam, Victini, Latios, and Gallade. If the Genesect user predicts a switch on say, Slowbro, and sets up, it could just end up getting smacked with Fire Blast/Flamethrower. And the Scarf set is outsped by Azelf, Victini, and Latios who can all OHKO it with their respective Fire-type moves (especially v. bug).

    Grass admittedly has trouble, but Genesect isn't the only Pokemon that gives it trouble. Volcarona, Heracross, Heatran, Infernape, Dragonite, Kyurem(-B), Hydreigon, Terrakion, and just about every top tier threat one can think of poses a major threat to Grass. There is a reason why Grass is considered by many to be a poor overall type, it simply doesn't have adequate immunities/neutralities, abundant weaknesses, and Pokemon that are generally hard to support using what Grass has access to. Genesect doing extraordinarily well against Grass isn't all that noteworthy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  18. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I'm writing in a hurry, so short post:

    @ User Name: The Ice Beam + Giga Drain combo destroy monoground teams so neither Mamo or water/ground pokes can help there. Water is more equiped with Gyara and Ludicolo, but they are still meh counters, specially if Gene Giga Drain is at +1. I agree with u on steel anyway, heatran is a full counter to genesect.
     
  19. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ok, well I'm really disappointed in all the people that said Genesect needs to be banned from Monotype. I honestly don't care about whether it stays or leaves but posted in order to help them and the turnout has been rather disappointing.
    But key fact, a lot of pokes that just downright wall/counter Gene are on types that just downright wall Bug/Steel or pokemon that give the entire type trouble. Namely Chandelure and Volcarona
     
  20. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @Rawr
    Just sayin', using Giga Drain means Genesect struggles a lot more with other Pokemon :/
    This is all assuming a Choice set, in which case you're locking yourself into Ice Beam or Giga Drain. You can get a surprise kill that way, but then you're stuck and that lack of an extra coverage move can and will come back to bite you. And that's all assuming you're going against a Type that runs the Pokemon you surprise kill anyways.
    And then Rock Polish def doesn't have the moveslots for it >_>

    @Celebi
    While there aren't that many Pokemon that "downright wall/counter" Genesect, there are still Pokemon that can handle it. Water/Grounds, particularly Gastrodon, tend to be among the better choices, for a quick example. Though Genesect does have ways to get around these, it often means sacrificing its viability versus many other Pokemon.
     
  21. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    @User name: Sorry man, but i disagree. From experience every RP genesect i encountered used giga drain, and it make sense anyway, thunderbolt offer only coverage again flying and water pokes, but Ice beam already cover flyers, and Giga drain can cover the water ones, while covering ground and rock to some extent (i'm talking of RP set, like i already said i don't consider broken the scarf set)

    Anyway, the statistics says the same for RP genesects using GD
     
  22. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    It's my first post about these things, if I got anything wrong please tell me

    Pokemon with more than 4% usage with more than 99 base speed.

    1. Victini (14.31 %)
    2. Infernape (11.87 %)
    3. Latios (11.25 %)
    4. Volcarona (9.41 %)
    5. Jirachi (9.40 %)
    6. Terrakion (8.40 %)
    7. Froslass (7.03 %)
    8. Alakazam (7.01 %)
    9. Zapdos (6.19 %)
    10. Gengar (6.02 %)
    11. Keldeo-R (6.00 %) + Keldeo (4.64 %)
    12. Staraptor (5.05 %)
    13. Galvantula (4.58 %)
    14. Starmie (4.51 %)
    15. Landorus (4.39 %)

    To outspeed Scarf Genesect instantly, all of these will need a scarf. Often, a positive nature too, as genesect almost always has a Naive nature. (a base speed of 114 or more will be needed - Starmie and Alakazam are the only pokemon in the list above).

    Most of the mons are special-based, and can learn either a fire move or HP fire. The viability of running HP fire on these mons will not be discussed. The physical mons have some more troubles.

    252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 204-241 (72.08 - 85.15%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.​
    252 Atk Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 195-229 (68.9 - 80.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.​
    252 Atk Landorus Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 166-196 (58.65 - 69.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.​

    None of these can cleanly kill Genesect.
    Assume these as the offensive moves from Gene: Bug Buzz, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Giga Drain.
    RPd Genesect outspeeds all these scarved mons.

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 270-320 (79.17 - 93.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Infernape: 252-298 (86 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 499-588 (165.78 - 195.34%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 183-216 (58.84 - 69.45%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    Much harder to kill without rocks
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi: 382-450 (112.02 - 131.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 619-733 (245.63 - 290.87%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 416-491 (129.19 - 152.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 242-285 (92.72 - 109.19%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 416-491 (128.39 - 151.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Galvantula: 575-676 (204.62 - 240.56%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 616-728 (236.01 - 278.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 1024-1206 (321 - 378.05%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    None of these pokemon can take the common moves that a Genesect may use. This means, a mon that can outspeed and "counter" Genesect Scarf doesn't work as well vs RP Genesect.

    These are the counters sulcata named. I'll ignore the Water/Ground types because of Giga Drain sets.

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 294-348 (69.33 - 82.07%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Wobbuffet: 595-702 (113.98 - 134.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 296-348 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Reuniclus: 476-562 (112.26 - 132.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 265-315 (65.59 - 77.97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Chandelure: 207-244 (79.31 - 93.48%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 393-463 (97.27 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock​
    Blissey and Chansey wall the special Genesect sets without problems.
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 243-289 (61.67 - 73.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock​

    So. What can take a Genesect hit and has more than 2% usage?

    2 mons, Jellicent and Heatran.

    So, how can one say to have a surefire Genesect counter?
     
  23. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @Rawr
    Eh, fair :O
    Though I note the top Rock Polish set has literally no way to hit Fire-types, and not much against Special walls that aren't hit super-effectively either >.>

    @Olivine
    I dunno, I just don't think it's necessary to actually HAVE a surefire Genesect counter :/
    IMO there are enough checks in various monos, bar the ones that already have a tough matchup versus Bug and Steel (honestly, what is Grass doing to do to either? ._.).

    Though again this is all assuming Scarf. Never had many experiences against Rock Polish.

    Honestly though I feel kinda guilty posting here since as I mentioned the last time we had a discussion about banning Genesect I don't have enough recent experience to really say what Genesect's effect on the meta is. As I mentioned in that post, most of my experience with Sect is like before BW2 even existed or something, and at that time, at least, I can say for sure it was never a cakewalk against Water, Steel, and Dragon, and Flying and Psychic were often able to put up a strong fight anyways.
    So I'll be trying to disentangle myself from this thread and leave you all to your newfangled Rock Polish Genesect discussion
     
  24. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I don't think I called most of those Pokemon counters, and I'm pretty sure I referred to them as checks (Staraptor, Alakazam, etc.). If I referred to them as counters, then I must apologize for my error.

    Having extremely few sure fire switch ins isn't really a new thing in the metagame. I'd love to hear about every Monotype's sure fire counter to Thundurus-I that can evade being crippled by Paralysis, or maybe every Monotype's counter to Kyurem-B who does half to a specially defensive Heatran when spamming banded Outrage and who can OHKO most of its "switch-ins" with an appropriate coverage move. As far as I can see Genesect really is just a top tier threat that teams need to consider. To be fully honest, while building a MonoGhost/MonoElectric/MonoPsychic/etc., I've always found Genesect counters to be pretty easy to come by due to covering the team's weaknesses while building. Genesect is a Pokemon that relies extensively on its wide range of coverage, that much I will admit. But when teams cover their weaknesses as thoroughly as they do in Monotype, it's not exactly that easy to simply spam a coverage move when more than half of the time Genesect will become setup fodder for the next Pokemon they send out (not to mention if they just hard switch then Genesect won't get the kill to begin with).

    Rock Polish also isn't the easiest thing to set up. With how offensive the tier is, most Pokemon are better off flat out attacking rather than setting up. Genesect isn't getting any free boosts with how offensive a tier dominated by Choice items, Life Orb, and Priority can be. After having most likely over half its health taken from a strong STAB attack (if not all), Genesect will only be able to get off maybe three attacks assuming the opponent doesn't carry any sort of priority.

    I also don't see why people keep bringing up what Genesect does to Steel and Bug. Both of these types can threaten each other equally with Genesect and counter just as well with Heatran (which is an absolute check, HP Ground isn't used) and Volcarona. Not to mention Bug has two spinners, the standard Forretress who can stack up spikes as well, and the lesser known Armaldo who can also spin surprisingly well and set up Stealth Rock. If anyone says Bug doesn't need a spinner or that adding a spinner to Bug is "overcentralizing" (which is sort of bs)... that might be where I simply stop arguing...
     
  25. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ok, so at this point in time we must simply ask: What are the criteria for banning a pokemon in monotype? Once this question is answered both sides can better support their beliefs.
     
  26. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I don't have much experience of the tier, but from what I do have I understand genesect to be broken, and I think it should be banned. Whatzin at the moment is running a monobug team with genesect largely in order to show how broken it is and to attempt to get it banned. Pretty frankly, it's got high speed, especially when scarfed, only weak to one type [fire], can scout and break ashes easily with U-turn, whilst getting great coverage from flamethrower, ice beam, and thunderbolt. Ideally it would love to run moves such as bug buzz, iron head, and extremespeed, but it only has 4 moveslots. Nevertheless, against types which it doesn't have good supereffective coverage against, it is still a very effective scout, and against teams it does have good coverage against (which is a large proportion of the types) it absolutely batters. The couple of things that may resist its coverage moves can be destroyed by the rest of the team usually. Often it can come in to scout with U-turn initially, and then come in and use its coverage move with a download boost and claim an easy sweep against pokemon weak to its supereffective move, or already weakened.
     
  27. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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