Some random ideas 1. Re-implement WW in large games, and give him the same reveal message as Samurai 2. Give mafia some more commands. I suggest giving DFCM a distract and DIM a poison 3. Feg's Mad Bomber idea, but make the Mad Bomber revenge daykills instead of being immune to them 4. Make the Godfather a Kuja with a single kill 5. Make the Godfather like Sephiroth: nightkill and un-revealing daykill
Not sure what you are saying about reveal chance? Is that too high or to low? I am looking for input. I agree that we should make as few changes as possible, which is why I am suggesting a change to a preexisting role that's win condition would hardly change, and would potentially fix all the balance issues.
Hannah, if you remove the Spy, you remove the nostalgic value of many clutch wins due to that role, that's why it would ruin the theme. What you need to do is address why the Werewolf is alone, with the same lame abilities, at like 27 players. This is probably your key role to balance larger games. Giving it another kill makes it a GF clone, so that's out of the question, so you'll need another solution. Something that helps dwindle town enough that the Mafia can remain the same while having the theme balanced. Shuffling spawn a slight bit to have WW either come between GF/Sam or right after Sam, plus a buff, could be enough to balance the Mafia without even touching them. One of the main things with Samurai is, even if BG dies, Inspector and Spy are still possibly concealed. In smaller games, when BG dies, Inspector and Spy die soon after because they've typically claimed. In addition, you need to address the rather low player ceiling as we can easily grab over 30 players now during peak.
I will say no to a reveal chance. It's either reveal or no reveal at all. Adding more chance rolls on Default Mafia is bad, in my opinion. and it shouldn't. That's about it that I can think of I guess. IN CONCLUSION. Samurai not broken, remove spy, fix WW. That's it.
I don't understand why you hate poison. It's a completely valid alternative to having 9001 kills. You hate hax, you hate poison... Are you a Vanilla fan, perchance? --- I'm attempting to read this entire thread at 6:40AM so expect more useful input from me after I've slept. For now: Dons being bombs was mentioned. That seems rather interesting. It'd slow the Samu down a bit until the Insp can give him the green light or the village rands the Dons off. WW UP, yes. Make him one-time lynchproof? "Why are you silly people trying to lynch a Werewolf? It becomes enraged and barrels out of the town. Next time you'll know better." Also, making him the new GF seems boring. Give him a one-shot command that converts a villager into a new Werewolf? --- From a tutoring perspective, I'd like to see Default include more of the newer and now commonly used commands. It's not just supposed to be nostalgic; it's supposed to act as the guideline theme for new players and coders alike. Leaving basic commands out just makes default look old and boring and it isn't helpful when basic commands aren't represented. If anything, it should be the theme that is most frequently updated. Just as the tierlists in the metagame must always be updated to keep the Pokemon metagame balanced, Default should be updated to keep the core of Mafia fresh and balanced. I personally don't really enjoy playing Default regardless of what role I get. I think we can manage to spice things up and still keep it simple and balanced. Sleep time.
Planning on making the poll tomorrow or so. Let's try to get ideas finalized. Also Hannah, I agree that I dislike hax, but I am trying to find a way to threaten the village without making them too UP. Maybe giving consp a 1-shot non revealing kill (separate command) and then a normal revealing kill?
You guys do realize there's a Theme Critique thread on Default, right? Anyways, since this is here, I'll post some thoughts. A game with Samurai is basically like Zelda (centralized on Link/Nayru synergy and village tethered on Nayru), except without a Koume, less balanced. You could in theory add a role to counter it, but that would make default be a little more complicated and deviate from the simple theme it used to be. My opinion is to remove Samurai. If you want to play a daykiller-centralized theme, play Zelda or Body, they do it better imo. About Hannah's comment on how a great scumteam can win games and plot to get the Bodyguard, most scumteams don't think when they kill, they just randkill away. And how does a scumteam "plot" to take down a role that they start out with a 1 in about 29 chance of hitting and they have no way to figure out who it is? Feel free to prove me wrong. A lot of people want to complicate the BG and the Samurai roles, but I think that default should be kept basic basic basic. At Solace9's comment on learning new commands, you can do that with other themes, which can be more fun depending on if they know the flavor of said theme or not. I would try to keep the theme simple and balanced but I can't find a way to do that right now so I'll let others think about it.
There will be two polls. One to check the viability of each individual idea (Not gonna leave some out just because a couple others don't like it), and then possibly find a way to bunch them up into appropriate themes with differing ideas. Possibly combine some ideas that might go better together. I think the 5 most played themes will be disabled for the time being to allow these default and all the other themes that aren't played as much to be played. Then after that, a poll to see which default is best and how that one can be improved upon to make it better.
Something I've noticed in this thread is that each person has a different view on what Default should be. Some say it should be a basic and simple themes, thus it shouldn't have commands like Poison and Convert, while others say it should be a theme meant for players to learn the game, so those commands should be added. So, in addition to any version to be tested, I suggest a poll to find what players truly expect from Default, as it could help at finding what needs to be changed in the theme (if anything). BTW, my personal opinion is that Default should help players to graps the fundamentals of the mafia game. Not server mafia or PO themes, but the most basic skills and rules that can be applied to any version of mafia - things like scumtelling, teamwork, the common counters to some roles, etc. Actions like Poison and Convert, although common to most mafia themes, are not really necessary for that definition of the theme.
Default is a theme for learning, and for the basics. Poison does not belong in Default. There will not be a Town Poisoner. Neither does a Town Safeguarder role, which would arguably be necessary if there were a Mafia Poisoner. No Werewolf Kefka. Please. Convert does not belong in Default, and I don't think we should be using relatively unused mechanics such as 1 shot Bulletproof/Lynchproof in this theme, even if they would provide a nice . Hax is debatable. I personally dislike the Spy role, because of the non-human RNG factor of hax (human RNG means randomly killing, as will always happen in any game), but learning about hax is something that needs to happen for all new players in the #Mafia channel. That being said, Mythology and Caterpie are more than anyone needs to learn about the power of hax. If new players need to learn about day actions, go to Zelda and Kirby (which are started just as often, if not more than Default). I think the simplest solution to much of the debate is removing the Samurai entirely, rather than creating a myriad of checks and counters to specific Village roles. If you want an explanation for the first four lines of this post, I'll give you this: do not turn default into a theme like FF, where everyone is frightened of one or two select roles- enough so that fear trumps logic when it comes to the vote. "Fuzzy is the Kefka", "Could be Ax, vote him"- sound familiar? Let's not add a Poisoner too. EDIT: Miller is different, but the point is I dislike when you create unnecessary paranoia. They just played a game where there was one Ax left, and 7 sleeps. (DDD, MK, etc. scum roles were still alive.) And yeah, they lynched the 1/8 chance Ax. No poison please. Spoiler
That could mean many things. It could be a default setting (as in the skin), or the default mechanics (basic roles). Could also be default as in "theme you play by default to learn the game", or simply the theme that will be played if no other is available.
Make Dons ignore hax Make Vigi ignore hax Buff WW Buff GF Test ?? Profit These changes will be the least invasive while still achieving a goal: Making the mafia win more. Also, all changes to the default theme have to be put in the mafia.js, that is where the server pulls the data from. The pastebin and the .json are meaningless when the theme is hard coded into the script.
Specify how those would be buffed (makes the difference between a good and bad idea)? Also, from my understanding rather than making changes to default, different versions were going to be loaded as separate themes for the testing.
The hard-coded theme is only used when there are no other version uploaded. If you update default with a different URL, that one will overwrite the hard-coded version.
^ Then something is weird. /roles Default:bomb returns nothing. The only theme without Bomb is the one in the mafia.js. However, we should make it so that there aren't 3 defaults... No idea specifically. But the main problem lies in those roles. They almost never win in larger games and giving them an equal slice of the "Power Cake" will create a domino effect that makes village lose more... as a result, mafia wins more. Solo roles are still vulnerable to the mafia killing them and losing in votes, so by making them last longer, you dwindle village faster meaning a Mafia can gain an upperhand in large games. You have to always account for unplanned teamwork in the pursuit of winning. Mafias typically see the village as their largest thread in early-mid game, and will typically go after them more. They will kill clean people, they will kill people who follow votes too soon, and so on. Once village is manageable, THEN they go after each other. "My enemy's enemy is my friend" When I try to balance Ocean, which I feel like I have a pretty solid balance (sans Sushi Chef, still working on that.. and assuming my unpublished changes are used), I look at what other roles affect the role that needs a buff. Most of the time by tweaking other roles first, I get the balance I want. So for Default, who needs buffs... pretty obvious list, but I'll post it anyway: Werewolf Godfather Dons Regular Mafia And then I look at what makes these roles weak: Inspector Spy Samurai PL So, now comes the puzzle of figuring out what to do and making connections between the roles: Samurai or Inspector hits GF/WW, game over for the "side". So what would prevent this? What if GF/WW inspected as a villager? What if WW and/or GF revenged daykills? What if WW and/or GF could daykill? What if they had evasion or self-bg? What if either was a Cultist? What if either was a Strongman? And so on... Spy haxes Dons or Regular mafia means that the mafia is out We only really have 1 possible solution to fix this connection: What if Don couldnt be haxed? So, despite this change, Spy is still a pretty solid role. In large games, you have a connection between Vigilante and Spy. What if you broke that connection? Now you have to rely on Spy and Vigi both connecting some place else, and both telling the truth. It makes the Vigi more vulnerable to the PL. By removing Spy haxing on Vigi, you toss a slight nerf on 3 of the PRs, and you practically didn't even touch anything. In addition, when changing stuff, push it out in baby steps. Address the hax issue first, watch a few games, see what it does. Is Mafia having an easier time winning? If so, leave it and continue to watch. You don't want to completely revamp a theme, or you're bound to fail. I know this more than anyone else with a theme on the server and the reason lies in ROTK. I tried to do too much at once and completely failed. The theme now sits in a state of disrepair because there is just way too much to address, unless I completely ignore v2 and try to rebalance v1 instead. There can be a long string of planned updates, that's perfectly acceptable, but doing it all at once just makes it that much more difficult to tell what changes affected what and future idea lists need to adapt to what the theme needs as opposed to the goals of the user behind the list. The other main thing we have to contend with is, default is our "entry theme." Its supposed to remain simple and let users get their feet wet with Mafia. Being intrusive is not acceptable on a theme of this sort. If you want to do something high scale, pick any theme that is disabled or has been removed from the server. I can probably safely say, all people in this discussion would support a nerfing of the Spy. Some would rather have it removed, but in a case of Nerf vs Status Quo, I'd say they choose nerf. Therefore, the most logical first step to actually solving this is to do just that: Dons and Vigi now ignore hax. Blah blah blah, im rambling.
I would argue that there should be some threats to the village to keep village a little bit scared. It's boring and bland without it. I agree with Rice on keeping it default in mechanics, showing basic things and stuff, but my argument is that the small-medium games will hardly be affected by these changes (unless revamped completely). Since 1 mafia side and a single WW in games of 5-10, that will be the same. As FCM and IM come in, they are basic as well. The main change will be around ~18 as Dons come in. I don't mind the ignore hax too much. I do think spy needs a slight nerf. 10% is a bit much given the opportunity of a new person switching kills. Maybe 2% would make it weak enough to be a glorified villager, similar to mayor, yet still has it's own special power. Around ~23 is when samu comes in and when the major changes are gonna happen/be tested. I might compile a list of what people want for the theme changes and additions. With Roy. Just to make all the changes visible in one place.
The thing about default is just that... it's default. It's not supposed to have anything fancy like special mafia roles. I don't think a mafia PL or stalker would be... fitting. Maybe a votekiller? But like honestly nerfing hax seems like the way to start
I honestly think that if you cannot find a simple fix using something very simple like changing priority or slightly editing hax on Spy or smth, that you won't be able to "fix" default without rebuilding it from scratch.
I think, personally, we should try different small changes first - baby steps - and then note what works, what doesn't, etc. More drastic changes should come after we try a smaller, simpler approach. Oak is correct - if a small change will not work, we can and should rebuild default from scratch. I like the idea of removing spy, because Mafia is meant to be a game of skill (though as we all know, it isn't always that way!), and random luck is inherently antithetical to skill. Just ask any decent battler about losing to an inferior player because of a Stone Edge miss. The idea of removing samurai is also intriguing, but I feel like we should try removing the spy as a temporary measure first - no one can say removing spy is more extreme than removing samurai - and take notes using this thread on the removal's effects. Impartial, scientific, and all that.
It's rather ironic you made a reference to Stone Edge, given your username. But I digress. And yeah, I feel removing Spy is probably a way we could go, and I don't have many qualms about doing it. However, I still don't feel we're removing the real problem, which as I've said all along, is Samurai. But hey, if you can prove me wrong, I'll be more than happy.
Samurai's not that big a problem, actually... He's in big games and also he's the damn samurai-- he set the path for other village daykillers. They're even nicknamed after him! He's been an important part of mafia as a whole since the beginning, really. Plus, if the bodyguard dies he's screwed. But yes, maybe removing the spy is an OK idea, because hax is kinda a bs thing that can really wreck mafia unfairly. But removing one of the most famous, sought-after roles in mafia is most likely not the way to go. Another simple fix would to give him a recharge or a limit, no? Or throw in a couple daybombs. Those would effectively nerf the samurai.
If we do nothing to the Samurai, your argument consists of "If the Bodyguard dies, he'll die, and everyone wants to play as him." These are not convincing arguments. Just because it's fun doesn't mean it's fair.
The problem is how easy the village can connect and destroy the mafia via either inspector or samurai, not just a single role. Even if both roles are removed, the PL just claims and pseudo inspects, or the spy claims, etc. and the same outcome is achieved. Either a role needs to be added/changed to put pressure on the village (via Increasing we priority or my conspirator idea, etc.), or the theme needs to be rebuilt so that the village cannot connect so easily. Also, want to wait a bit longer on the poll due to recent discussion.
Samurai is a sitting duck without a BG. If Samurai were immune to Protect, it would be way less of a threat for mafia, so the problem is not Samurai, but Samurai + Bodyguard. It's different from other PRs because Samurai can't work silently. So, regarding Samurai, if removing the role is the solution approved for most players, I say we should first test Samurai immune to BG before trying a complete removal.
Also, planning on writing pros and cons of each idea. Probably in the format of Option 1, Option 2, Option 3, etc. That way people will have to read the description of each option before voting (which will include the proposal as well as pros and cons.) Opinions on how to do this without being arbitrary would be nice. Maybe getting other QC members to read my list before posting the poll?
Yeah that works regarding Samu, but Inspector will still claim. That being said, Village do need some stability. I'd be in favour of your proposition. Inspector can be fakeclaimed and what-not, but Samu can't.
Add a poisoner to FCM and day killer to IM. Seems good enough? I mean it would be able to keep the Prs in check. What would I know....