Balancing Default

Discussion in 'Mafia' started by Fegelein, Jul 18, 2013.

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  1. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    "The bite wound that ~Player~ suffered last night from the Werewolf has killed them" blah blah


    I know it makes it more complex, but what about an introduction to conversion in the theme? Werewolf can /bite someone to convert, if they are a standard villager only perhaps just to keep balance in check.
    Perhaps a recharge on this... then have it function like Nergal, where if the original WW dies, all the converts die. If you wanted to get more complex, you could do something that changed PRs or mafia into roles with support. The other werewolves can either be villagers, or share the kill with real WW. This would make the WW actually a viable role in large games, instead of the unbalanced crap it is now. Flavorful, and adds an introduction to a common action used in Mafia nowadays.
     
  2. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    So as a cult-like role? We need to discuss it first before we code it.

    I like having 1 convert every 2 days, everyone dies when the main WW dies, and the converted WW's get a kill.
     
  3. Roild

    Roild Member

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    I rather disagree with cult things in default. Maybe one-time only would be okay, but more than this would kind of suck. And it would be a basic WW with basic WW flavor and abilities. (Kills PL) If the converter dies, normal one should live on with basic stuff. It wouldn't be bad to the theme in larger games.
     
  4. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    Cult stuff is getting to complex. The goal is to remain as simple as possible, and ideally as limited amount of changes to solve the problems (Which are Village being OP, mafia + WW being UP. Arguably the mafia is UP because of the village being OP, so nerfing the village could solve that problem.)
     
  5. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    Default used to be the only "theme", which is why it is as generic as it was up to the point of the creation of this thread. It was required to be simple so everyone could enjoy it, new or veteran.

    Default's niche is that it's basic concept with power roles that doesn't go crazy and easy to recognize teams means that most players can figure it out fast. It does this successfully, while it may be unbalanced in larger games.

    What was the point of writing that out?

    Well, there are two things we can do with Default.

    1) Change a few roles


    The better choice in my opinion. Some of the suggested ideas have been excellent and we need to see more discussion about what we can do.

    2) Rewriting the theme

    I do not think this is the way we should go. Default was made to be easy to understand. I think it does its job of introducing the concept of PRs for new players and being an overall fun theme as it is. It's fine that it's simple. It wasn't made to be complex, so rewriting the theme is not the way to go.

    Unless we could rewrite it so that not only does it remain simple but it fixes balance problems.

    tl;dr - The goal of default is to be as simple as possible while still being fun to play which it does pretty well, so instead of rewriting we should work on balancing.

    tl;dr part 2 - or redo the theme with the same basic core of easy to learn easy to play while making it balanced
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
  6. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I actually think reworking the theme while keeping the flavor and the basic premise is the best solution.

    This thread began by discussing how to fix the Samurai issue, but default has several other issues that would require some changes too. IMO, default needs a stronger core instead of one new role to balance the last new role that was added to balance yet another role.
     
  7. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    here are a few ideas

    1: Once Samurai appears the Inspector dissapears or this could be done with the Vigilante.

    2: The Don's become Daybombs they still ignore distracts though. (This is my personal favorite)
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
  8. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Dons don't ignore kills. They ignore distractions. e_e
     
  9. JhenMohran

    JhenMohran Random Art Guy

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    Argh everyone seems like they're trying to fix default for like a thing tomorrow! We don't need to rush this people, we need approach this with a proper method!
    So I've seen a lot of ideas but not loads of " this is the best one, this isn't" kind of stuff. So I think people need to say which ideas they have liked so far, which ones they havent and why!
    ----
    Doing cult stuff would make it too complicated, its default needs to be simple. So I think best method in my opinion would be increasing numbers on scum sides, so more ww etc. But also give maf minor prs maybe. If village still op then it can be reduced after that. Its more of maf being up than village being op.
     
  10. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    If you want to give that a shot, you can come up with a rework (doesn't have to be coded immediately, just the roles list). It can then be an option to test.

    Also, @ Jhen - The village is actually OP. I agree WW is UP, but nerfing the village would be a sufficient change to make the mafia not under powered. That's why I suggested increasing WW priority and changing spawnlist.
     
  11. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I agree with that. Of course, Convert can be simple, but I think default should stick with no players changing teams mid-game.

    I will give it a thought.
     
  12. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    May I bring up waehofen's classic theme? That could be implemented as the new default.
     
  13. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I was thinking about that too. With the proper balance fixes (and that theme really will need some), it could be used as a base for one of the themes tested.
     
  14. Sandusky

    Sandusky My body is ready!

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    I do agree that Samurai is OP. I suggest that when the Samurai does his daykill, it reveals the inspector.
     
  15. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    (16:45:49) Roy Mustang: but yeah, if consp won as long as village lost
    (16:45:51) Roy Mustang: and got a revealing daykill
    (16:45:53) Roy Mustang: that'd be cool
    (16:45:54) Roy Mustang: !
    (16:46:10) Roy Mustang: and it would potentially buff WW
    (16:46:14) Roy Mustang: and potentially buff each mafia
     
  16. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    That wouldn't be bad at all, if the Mafias are allowed to work together to kill the Village before killing each other.
     
  17. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    It's version 2.0 of my WW idea. It still puts pressure on the village via revealing daykill (making it potentially unsafe for them to outright claim, but still allowing voicing). And the ability to win as long as village loses helps solve the UP mafia & WW.

    Edit: It's a Conspirator that only wins as long as Village loses.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2013
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    In my opinion, Conspirator is not the solution to buff the mafia. Ideally, default should focus on the most basic roles, and a conspirator would break that defaultish feeling the same way a cult would due to more complicated teams/victory conditions.

    Also, for a theme meant to help players at learning the basics, mafia shouldn't be buffed with an ally that could turn against them (and that's if that role even wants to help them, which would reduce the skill factor for the theme).
     
  19. Marquis

    Marquis beez in the whazzit??

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    Roy forgot to add the part where it's a Conspirator that only wins as long as Village loses.
     
  20. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    It would be the same thing. The mafia team is not really being buffed because they still depend on a third party to agree to help with them, so the teamwork factor is non-existant there. If conspirator decides to side with Mafia A instead of Mafia B, how was Mafia B buffed?
     
  21. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    I understand what you are saying, but conspirator and revealing daykills are both things already present (or at one time present, idr if conspirator was removed). I think that makes it a viable solution, as well as the reasons I outlined in my previous post. It's at least worth a test.
     
  22. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Of course we could test, but, at least regarding the Conspirator role default had a while ago, we should remember that it was a really controversial role and barely did anything to help any side at all.
    I don't really mind a daykiller, although having one in addition to Samurai could end complicating things.
     
  23. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    though conspirator sometimes leads to a few fun experiences for the most part I'm glad he's not there, kinda tricky to explain to new players in default too.
    I've always backed the buffing of mafia by giving them roleblockers or other stuff
     
  24. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    Role blocker doesn't buff the ww., stop samurai from claiming and connecting, and barely buffs the mafia at all. We are going to test Maria PRs, but I doubt that they will sufficiently fix the balance issues. You also have to keep in mind that we are adding additional roles by doing so, vs. changing an already existing role. I'm for as few changes as possible, so the idea of changing conspirator to potentially fix all of the balance issues is extremely appealing to me. Others are welcome to try to find other solutions (besides mafia PRS and conspirator/ww suggestions) that will sufficiently fix these balance issues. Poll will be up once I feel sufficient discussion has happened in order to find the best selection of ideas.
     
  25. Distraction

    Distraction New Member

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    As well as what Michu said:
    I am against the idea of taking out samu. I like that it speeds the game up (since its present in larger games). We wouldnt want to wait for inspec to tell us what to do in VERY big games, now do we?
    I am supporting the bolded ideas.
    Reason:

    Recall that the reason why village is OP is because of the fact that inspec claims n1, is connected by d1 and rands/finds baddies. If there is a way to delay that (ie getting a mafia pl so inspec cant claim as fast and can use a voice/silently connect) then that will be perfect.
    If there are big games then no inspec will be fun. PRs will be connected via samu and then it will be mind games from there >:D
    Both ways allow for mafia to have a chance and not have to pray for the village to be idiots and rand inspec (granted, that does happen 70% of the time xD)
    This is just my humble opinion. The end.
     
  26. Mavs>Heat

    Mavs>Heat Member

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    Adding a Mafia Hooker would make the mafia stronger (obviously), but it doesn't really solve the whole "I'm inspector, BG on me PRs pm" thing. People would just do what happens in Zelda, which is have Navi, the spy, claim (assuming no Link, as there normally isn't in default), as PLing him is useless, but still gets the PRs connected.

    Another possibility is to get rid of PL stalling. In late games, PL stalling can single-handedly give mafias 0 chance of winning, as one person gets PL'd, the village slowly lynches off everyone else. Early game, it eliminates one kill from the mafia permanently, unless the other side kills the PL. However, that would mean the other team can't focus on the Bodyguard. Disallowing you to distract the same person 2 nights in a row would semi-solve this problem, as mafia would still get to kill every 2 nights, rather than get slowly lynched. Alternatively, you could have mafia kill the PL if they choose to kill her the same night she is PLing them. After all, it doesn't make much sense to see the PL at the door, and not be allowed to shoot them.

    You could also have BG unable to protect the same person 2 nights in a row, which completely exposes the Inspector to getting killed. They would still get to BG every night, just not on the same target.

    and of course, WW needs a serious buff in large games.
     
  27. JhenMohran

    JhenMohran Random Art Guy

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    Or not have the entire team distracted by the pl, just have the one who got distracted, distracted. But the code would have to do something where:
    Mafia 1 and Mafia 2 are on a team
    Mafia 1 decides to use the team /kill on Person 3
    PL decides to distract Mafia 1, so kill does not occur

    However if:
    Mafia 1 and Mafia 2 are on a team
    Mafia 2 goes to use team /kill Person 3
    PL decides to distract Mafia 1, Kill does occur as Mafia 2 not affected.

    So team still has 1 kill each but it is relative to who uses it so PL has less of a chance of finding it out.
    Something like that maybe. Seems like a really odd thing to code though.
     
  28. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    100 times yes. I am glad someone else sees it how I do. That's why I'm trying to come up with different ideas that will solve the balance issues. PL stall idea is somewhat interesting, not sure if it would be enough though.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  29. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Fegelein, I just love you for making this. We've talked about it for ages but I didn't think you'd actually get this shit done. Good work.

    My thoughts: buffing the Mafia is nearly irrelevant. Roleblocker is useless, Night Doctor is useless, Tracker is semi-useless. Bus Driver has potential but is too complicated for the server players and I don't even know if it's codeable, Bulletproof just means they survive the Night and get lynched, etc. etc. At some stage we're going to have to basically take the hard line and realise Village is just overpowered and you cannot balance a theme where there is a daykiller who can only be killed if the Mafia hit a lucky shot. That's it, that's the ultimatum. And it's not even hard to use: people talk about Vanillas dying but who cares? With PL/Insp/Samu/lynch you're constantly clearing and killing and Mafia have nowhere to hide on d3/d4 if they've missed the BG. Samurai isn't a vital part of the game, so why do we need it? It's fun. That's the only thing I could think of. Everyone loves drawing Link/Captain Falcon etc. because it's the feeling of power and being in control. Samurai isn't balanced and we can try to make suggestions and nerf and buff but until it's gone, Village will win 9 games out of 10, every time.
     
  30. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Is a valid idea but doesn't work in practice because it's a suicide role, similar to Koume in Zelda, who usually doesn't do their supposed job and actually kill Link.

    Now, a Conspirator with a 2/3/recharge-time daykill, which doesn't reveal on its first kill, really has potential.

    Also, cult arguably fixes default but then it's not default any more.
     
  31. Roild

    Roild Member

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    That's using the assumption that the samu has a target. If he doesn't and if he doesn't even claim or connect, or others don't PM, he'll just end up hurting village more than helping at times. And even a couple mafia kills just makes another mafia stronger. GF doesn't even worry about anything since he rampages through targets. GF is a stronger threat to the mafias than samu is.

    He still needs a threat though. I've already mentioned how a mafia poisoner would fare. He can't be protected against, has to have a cooldown or it'd get silly, team can be PL'd and he'd still be fine. Or if he's pl'd, team will be fine. Not too sure how this would fare with dons on the team as well. The point is that PL gets a drop in power and Samu gets a new threat. A simple poison isn't completely out of the reach of default and the game would be fine with this change, along with any other change (mafia roleblocker) for other teams.
     
  32. Distraction

    Distraction New Member

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    Exactly. The lower the chances of consp revealing, the nicer the idea is. After all, its not as if consp can say "prs pm" after being revealed, right? Cons: game is back to normal if inspec finds out consp n1 (very unlikely, but possible), and confusing to new players. Consp can also essentially decide who wins, but hey, if they've lived till that point they earned it :3

    Nice idea. Results in voting them off the next day leaving mafia free to kill again, but it would be useless if in the night the PL stalled the mafia the inspec found the partner. Then the PL would simply go on the next person. Or PL could be lucky and when they switch targets, they accidentally get the partner, immobilizing the team by alternating every other night.


    That would render the pl role practically useless, right? If the BG dies n1 and inspec dies n2, village is screwed since PL has a very small chance of finding a mafia, and there couldnt be any PL stalling (which is the village's last line of defense)

    Sorry guys, I have NO ideas coming to my head thus far so all i can do is just voice my opinion on the ones already said :<
    I promise to post one as soon as I have one, so have a cupcake while you wait: Pokemon%u002520Cake_006b.jpg

    Reminder: default is meant to be easy to understand, let's try to keep it that way.
     

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  33. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Just throwing an idea here: We totally need to at least test a version where the mafia doesn't split into FCM and IM. Only 1 major faction + 1~2 third parties could lead to interesting stuff.
     
  34. JhenMohran

    JhenMohran Random Art Guy

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    Its not totally useless Distraction just has less chance of being useful :D

    I think Roy's Idea of looking into the spawn list will be a good plan so if anyone knows where that is and could post it then that would be awesome, cause i dunno where its gone to.

    And Rice's Idea of having 1 Maf side could work as well, would the ww still have a side or would it be more like vanilla with prs ? (or just small player default without the ww) but i think that would again be done by looking into the spawn list.
     
  35. Roild

    Roild Member

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    If 1 maf side, I am for giving some variation. 1 Don, 1 poisoner, 1 PL (X-shot?), maybe normal. and then GF buff, WW buff. And maybe one more side??
     
  36. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

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    Hmm, maybe a reveal chance instead? Maybe around 40%.
     
  37. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    >reveal chance
    >40%

    Probably going to put out an unpopular opinion but adding too many roles makes default just seem like any other theme. Server mafia default theme was the very first theme and has been around for much too long. I don't know why people try to add more flavor or keep balancing it. It gets a lot of plays and strikes the nostalgic value of the old server mafia days. I don't really get why everyone is trying too hard to balance/rework the whole damn thing.

    I play a lot of server mafia and in my opinion, it shouldn't really be messed around with that much. I won't really object to a new PR for mafia (stalker please) just to spice things up, but if you add too much shit around it it'll just be a ghost of it's former self.

    From the games I've seen, Village still lose games (and quite a bit too) despite having Samurai around. You can argue "In a good player's hands, Samurai wins games." The same can be said towards a great scumteam, they have 3 people that already know each other and can plot out and just get the BG to ruin the whole momentum of village.

    Yes crossfires are there that are pretty dangerous towards mafia, but shit happens. Village crossfires too with the daykill/careless vigi kill.

    Yes, Samurai does get to crossfire because the PL/Inspector has limited feedback per night. They can't always get scum, the same way mafia doesn't always get a PR. Adding in the spy though which relies on hax rather than educated/random guess from a person is pretty much shit on this theme. Removing it will do no harm at all towards the theme. Prove me wrong.

    Anyways, that's probably my take on it. I'm just a player after all, nothing more, nothing less. If you guys want to change shit around go ahead.

    Non-colored post. Whoop-de-doo.
     
  38. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    There needs to be a way that we can see win percentages so we can take out all the theory that's going on in this thread. People are assuming that xxx team wins xxx percent of the time, but unless we have statistics on which team is winning the most, we won't be able to accurately balance the game.

    Just like we had theme statistics before where it told us how many times a theme was played and who started the themes, there should be a win statistics page or something.
     
  39. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    I'll bet literally anything that Mafia wins a tiny percentage of the games w/ Insp and Samu. So will Feg. Go to the Warstory thread, and check some of them out.
     
  40. Roild

    Roild Member

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    You'd lose that bet. I pay attention to the games. Mafia wins more often than naught. You are assuming every player is one well-oiled machine, and it's never that way. The warstories are just epic in one direction and don't change the overall things. I've already said how if village gets lucky and mafia xfire and derp around, they get hammersmashed quickly. That's like 1/20 default games.
     
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