I've been wanting to discuss this for a while because many people are in the firm belief that the Default theme simply isn't balanced. I am one of these people, and one of the many reasons for this is the Samurai. For those of you that don't know, the Samurai is a very powerful role sided with the Village that appears at 24 players and up. His niche for the village is to kill once during the day. This kill COMPLETELY reveals the Samurai to everybody in the game, allowing every power role to safely PM him with no risk. With the information retrieved from the Inspector/Spy should they still be alive, and even without it, he can make an educated lynch for a total of 2 players removed in the day and night. Coupled with the Vigilante, the village can remove a total of 3 PEOPLE PER PHASE. This is more than any other Mafia or lone role can achieve, and the Village already has the numbers advantage, so this gives the village a HUGE advantage over every other side. Even trickery will only get you so far. The only way to stop the Samurai is to, quite simply, kill the Bodyguard. In a full game, this is completely dependant on luck. While more experienced players can make a nice estimate of who the Bodyguard is from things like votecounts, it still requires a lot of luck, and it's still quite difficult to kill a Bodyguard. This limits the scum to shots in the dark, with no other chances of removing the Samurai from the game (unless they get very lucky and outnumber the Village during a votecount). This means that the Samurai is free to kill as much as he wants as long as the Bodyguard is still alive, and he even gets 2 kills before dying. Coupled with the fact that the Samurai kills during the day, a trait that is unique only to himself and that it reveals him, CONFIRMING him as Village 100%, in my personal opinion, The Samurai makes the Village too OP and should be removed from Default. If you want to kill troublesome bad guys, that's what you have the Vigilante and the votecount for. That's more than enough for the Village to succeed, it doesn't need another one which can also claim completely safely as well. What are your thoughts on the Samurai in Default?
I have a bigger issue with Spy/Hax in general in all themes. That uses the extremely haxxy PO mechanics and plays it here :< I'm kind of on the fence with Samurai, considering there is a bigger possibility of hitting a townie rather than mafia in big setups. That just narrows down possible PRs to hit for the baddies. Also, Samurai can't really claim alongside the Inspector, which means Mafias can get to kill him as well. If you were going to rework default, and themes in general, I suggest going for hax/spy first. It's a bigger issue that affects a lot of themes, breaking some, even.
I honestly find Samurai much worse. Sometimes Spy can get no hax at all, it's luck of the draw there. Yes, and even if he hits a Townie, he can get information from other roles and make educated guesses. That doesn't change the fact for the most part that Samurai will hit Mafia, especially with claims of Villager in the chat; most scum forget to do that. Also, I never said Inspector should claim alongside Samurai, Inspector should just PM him when he kills/claims. This is not a discussion on hax. If you want to speak about hax, make another thread about it. This thread is about Samurai in particular.
Instead of making a thread solely about samurai, can there be a Mafia Review thread dedicated to default so we can make suggestions about all aspects of default? People just assume it's balanced and it is not, at all (outside of certain player sizes, though I admit it is fun to play) For example werewolf is trash in larger games and never wins in the 27-30 games that it appears in.
Although I agree that having Samurai makes the village OP, I disagree that it creates a void that necessitates that the samurai be removed. My reasons for that I shouldn't be removed are just three core ideals. #Playability #Creativity #Balance (overall) Play-Ability (AKA FUN) To prevent this from being a circle jerk of when mafia was the thriving community it is today with multiple themes with a wide selection, Default was the only game and it was played with French Maf, Italian and the sort. When samurai was introduced, it instantly made people go nuts. Despite the fact that this role is the topic of discussion and is - of sorts - Overpowered, I disagree that removing it would solve the Problem. Spoiler "bodyguard", "mafia1", "mafia1", "inspector", "hooker", "villager", "mafia2", "mafia2", "villager", "villager", "villager", "mayor", "villager", "spy", "villager", "miller1", "miller2", "mafiaboss1", "villager", "vigilante", "villager", "godfather", "mafiaboss2", "samurai", At #23 players (without samurai) there is Don FCM, FCM, FCM Don IM, IM, IM Godfather vs Vigilante Bodyguard Insp Spy PL And Mayor, and the rest villagers. Even though some may considered it "balanced" - there is a lot that can be done with this theme to make it (balanced). Which leads to my next point Creativity Throughout mafia there has been tons of innovation whether it's going from something as simple as changing kill priority or even coming out with brand new commands. I understand that Default is meant to be "Theme Beta" - or the basic of themes, there are some simple commands I believe that can be utilized whether it's adding something as simple as a mafia guy that does poison - or to adding something as complex as a converter. Whether or not this will be utilized, I think ideas like THIS should be explored before we discuss getting rid of a role that brings some kind of breath of fresh air to Default. Otherwise it's just a theme that has a plethora of night actions and nothing goes on during the day. This will force this theme to be rather boring (especially when we have such a new group of mafia players coming in periodically) and would rather not take a step into the past for this kind of theme (this plays back into Play ability). And now, my final point. BALANCE For anyone arguing that this theme is incredibly unbalanced because of village's egregious amount of power roles and usually allows them to win because of so - why is Samurai the automatic scapegoat? In situations like these, you don't always have to nerf a side to reassure the balance in the game; just add something new/buff the other side to make up for it! Mafia could benefit from the use of conspirators again for voting numbers. Has anyone thought of adding a recharge for the samurai's kill? Instead of removing him, you could limit it so that he can't do it on d1, and instead begin on d2 and from there have a recharge of every other night (I'm sure this is possible). This would prevent people from actually PMing him since no one will really know who he is until he officially exposes himself. There are a plethora of ideas that can be done to fix this but I think you actually have to give it a chance before one just throws out the notion that removing the role entirely would benefit the game without first exploring options to keeping said role within the game. Just my opinion and I do not mean to offend and/or discredit anyone's ideas!
I agree with Dark Phoenix's idea of keeping the Samurai and buffing the mafia a bit. However, the Samurai is a bit overpowered since it does reveal itself, so the only thought I really have is to make it so the Samurai is never revealed. Then again, that would just allow the inspector to claim but he's never confirmed. You could even add another lone role like Godfather and give him a non-revealing daykill. This could keep the Samurai in check since his daykills are revealed (kind of like a Link vs. Koume thing). You could give the mafia an inspector or let the mafia get a chance to hax a PR or something. My main point is what Dark Phoenix said though: don't nerf the village, just buff the mafia. It's not much I have to offer, but I did just want to let everyone know how I felt about it.
I want Mafia PR's added after the Samurai is dealt with, as the Village are still slightly OP even without Sam. Problem with Hooker is that it can distract the other Mafia and ruin another Mafia side.
Village rarely wins large games. The fact is, server people don't always work together and connect. The few times they do, and mafia just go around killing (with their xfire as well), they end up winning with most of their players alive. Even when it's 3 villagers (or 1 PR+2 villies) vs 1 mafia, if the mafia is a strong player, mafia can win. The only problem I see with samurai is that he has no obvious threats. He can't be distracted, killed, or voted out if he has claimed. The BG dying is the only way he can get out, which is what usually happens. By the time it gets to the end, BG and Samurai will be dead since they are the biggest threats to mafia. Spy, PL, and insp can provide information, but there's enough millers and evaders that it isn't as bad. Yet by end-game, if mafia is good, samurai will die and have only whittled down some roles, given an idea as to who the PRs are (by the way people respond to it), and possibly take down some mafias (all of this makes it easier for other mafias to come in and finish off the village). Even in the hands of a skilled player, high chance of villagers and some PRs being killed, and maybe some mafias being hit. If you hit correctly every time, with info from other PRs, then that's just some strong luck. (Maybe too much luck at times, I'll give you that. Still keeps most of the other things I said true.) Now, how to fix samurai without taking him out - He needs a threat. Something that might make him wait a little until it's dead. I have thrown my hat in for a mafia roleblocker, mafia poisoner, or even a mafia insp. The third still allowing samurai to claim. These are basic enough that it could be a boon for the theme as a whole, while keeping with the default nature of things (maybe even X-shot so must be used wisely). There was also some talk as to changing Default from scratch. I could definitely enjoy this idea in order to spread around more basic abilities (mafia poisoner pls). Default should be kept simple, while allowing players to experience some diversity. This is what I would really enjoy and players would benefit. It would involve some slightly advanced mechanics in larger games, but introduce new roles that are pretty easy to understand. I don' want default to become some giant convoluted thing, nor do I want to see the removal of the samurai role. I remember games without him and they were pretty dull. Follow the inspector and wait for him to die. Follow the samurai isn't too much better, but it does spice things up some. TL:DR -- I agree that he needs a threat, but I don't agree for the removal. Maybe even redo default.
How the samurai is countered in other popular themes: Body- Kujas (Angelman/Anthrax/PWS), other daykillers(Rabies, PWS), and Kefkas (Angelman); Elements-Other daykillers(Pluto), poison; FF- Kefka, Kuja, poison (Ultimecia and Anima), other daykiller (Sephiroth); Fruit-Poison (Rotten Orange), other daykiller (Fish); Mythology-Kefka (Empowered Prometheus), Kuja (Kronos), other daykillers (Hades and Phoebe); Kirby-Other daykillers (Marx Soul, Meta Knight), Kuja (Dark Matter); Zelda-Other daykiller (Koume), and large amount of kills increasing chances of BG death In all cases, the samurai is threatened by a mafia sided, unrevealing daykiller. So I support the idea of adding such a role, perhaps a modification to the Werewolf or Godfather, as a direct counter to the Samurai. Or have Werewolf bypass bodyguards since it's a lone role.
short response that will be updated very much later: Mafia gets added role that appears as normal mafia - but in reality is a mafia role revenge (Mafia Bomb role). This will replace a regular mafia role, so in larger games it'll be Don Maf, Maf, Maf (bomb that reveals as maf). y/n?
I completely disagree with removing the Samurai. If you're going to dwell on how it makes mafia unfun for those who are aligned with mafs, then I suggest you take a gander at the spy. That's for another day though, so let's focus on what the points are for keeping Samurai. You're saying that the Samurai is overpowered because it has a revealing daykill, which means once you use the kill you're completely dependent on the bodyguard. This serve as both a pro and con. The pro, being able to connect the power roles with the limited time on the spotlight you have. Even if you connect the PL, Inspector, Spy and Bodyguard. The whole game revolves around you maintaining the Bodyguard. Without it you're all essentially sitting ducks because you won't be able to claim. Yes he does daykill, but he has bigger chance of hitting a villager rather than mafia. That just narrows down the list of people to kill by the mafia. I think that the reason you think he's broken is because of his ability to voice. Samurai has PL and Inspector to speak up their claims with and the ever so shitty invented role Spy that'll just slowly hax out the whole mafia. Thing is it doesn't usually work out. I don't think that the Samurai is broken. What I do think is that the Spy is an incredibly horrible role to put in the town. I won't really object to another Mafia PR, namely an IM Stalker and an FCM Mayor. (Yes, they're that bad)
Want to agree about Spy. I just don't like the concept of a "chance" of either being completely useless or ruining the game for the mafia. I realize that mafia has chance in it, but I'd rather limit that as much as possible and make things more dependent on intelligent guesses (vs. complete chance). Thoughts on discussion: Because there is no threat of mafia inspecting as a villager or anything of the sort, inspector can just inspect a villager and get a voice instantly. I think default is unbalanced not just because of the samurai, but also because of the inspector. It's far too easy for the village to connect and just rape the mafia, whether samurai is there or not. Buffing the mafia could be done in numerous different ways. Adding conspirators back, making Dons inspect as villagers, add a kill2 every x nights, etc. Those are just some ideas off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many other solutions (and probably some better ones!) But yeah, default is in desperate need of being fixed. The problem is we need to keep it as true to the original as possible when doing so, and keep things simple. Default is default after all.
I'd take a step further and say it's not Samurai or Inspector, but the Bodyguard that makes default unbalanced. If Inspector and Samurai both die N1, Vigilante, Spy or PL still can easily organize the village and take down the mafia as long as Bodyguard is alive (and not derping around). Samurai is specially stronger because of Bodyguard. Inspector and PL can get voices, but Samurai is useless if the BG is not around. Some other posts in this thread even pointed to how the game for the baddies revolves around finding and killing the Bodyguard, and some others even mentioned how simply removing Samurai wouldn't be enough to balance the theme, so, IMO, the starting point should be ways for Mafia to find and/or nullify BG.
I've been throwing around the idea of the Samurai being immune to protect. Becomes more risky to make his unblockable kill now since he's basically dead meat after that. Thoughts on this?
Changing default never ends up being a good idea and I'm sure you all know that. The samurai is a huge part of the theme, anyway...
That could solve the issue of the Samurai being a major threat to Mafia, but afterward, the game still would be a "Hunt the Bodyguard" to take down inspector or any other role leading the village. I'm a fan of the Mafia-sided Hooker, although only having a Hooker wouldn't mean much in regards to distracting the Bodyguard if you can't find it. Default has changed a lot since I first started playing here. If you think changing default never ends well, then the right thing to do would be to remove the Samurai, since such role was the result of one of those "changes to default". Also, I have to disagree that a role that only appears at 24+ players is a huge part of any theme. It can change the theme when it's in, but it's hardly what the theme revolves around for most of the games.
don't mind me, i'm just tired and don't think well >_> but anyway, i think a good idea would be to put a daybomb back in-- possibly on mafia side and reveals as regular mafia? That would catch a samurai off guard after the inspector tells him to kill him.
Could you not simply either 1: Have the Mafia PLs appear after the Dons appear, thus the Dons are suddenly stronger (I mean really in current default Dons aren't that much stronger than normal mafia) because of this losing the Don is actually a big deal for the mafia teams. or 2: Have the Mafias ignore each others PL but are still affected by the Village's PL Personally either a mole or a day bomb would work for default.
the solution does not need to be complex...we should stick to simple changes ie adding a mafia hooker and making the WW a mole role. you could even add a mafia inspector in larger games. overly complicated solutions are just that - too far removed from what "default" is... adding roles that already exist to the mafia side seems to me to be an simple solution that more than likely will solve the problem
Yeah, simple changes might go a long way. I'm still for adding a Mafia Poisoner (possibly sided with WW) in order to see some variety in actions. Also, the role of this person's team would suffer less from being distracted since it wouldn't need to share the kill. (In order to balance, once every two days and a 1 day delay death.) Kills two birds in one stone with this addition. It is also a really basic action.
Poison changes way too much when added to an existing theme. PLs get yet another role to prevent PL cleaning, BG gets unreliable, Safeguards are required and counting kills by priority gets way too confusing. IMO, it would change the theme's premise way too much. As interesting as the WW as a mole role sounds, it doesn't seem to (at least directly) solve the Samurai issue, since that it's a role to counter Inspector, not Samurai. An inspector/stalker sided with Mafia sounds more interesting, as it allows Mafia to have a better chance at looking for the role that makes Samurai really strong (AKA the Bodyguard).
WW sided poisoner, call it the "flea"! Couldn't ideas to balance this theme go in this thread if its already made? http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?16649-Default/page5 If we aren't doing that, then I guess there are a few things to say The werewolf is absolutely trash in larger games. An idea that only buffs the Werewolf but nerfs the village is give the WW not only a Night kill but also a daykill that does not reveal. While this is a very large change, keep in mind WW only appears in games that are really small or 27-30, and it actually gives it a chance to win. I would also let the WW in a bit earlier and let it kill faster then BG instead of daykill in smaller games (ie 24-27 or something like that), then change it to a daykill for the larger games.
A slowish poison that is restricted wouldn't be enough. And that is the point exactly. The PL and BG roles become a little unreliable, while the insp/samu are still capable of claiming but dying in a few days if they do. Or they can claim in the day to have 3 days of life left. (n1 poison, samu claims d1, n2 recharge, n3 poison, samu dead n4 or n5, depending on poison time.) A safeguard role would be annoying if the poisoner was already weak.
Just a thought : increase werewolf's priority to be faster than BG? That aspect balances FF (via kefka), and makes would Mae Werewolf less useless. The spawn list would have to be changed as well though.
This is so very true. Mafia has changed to the point where village mostly wins by luck rather than cooperation.
@ ^ This is easily understandable. Smaller games shouldn't have this excuse, but larger games have SO MANY PLAYERS. It's extremely hard to be a Samurai and keep track of all the PMs, while at the same time killing and leading the village. You'll be getting up to about 10 PMs at a time, which, if you've never been in such a scenario, is hard to manage. I think the day should be extended for larger games if at all possible to alleviate this, but that's a different problem altogether.
Jhen's ideas on default in general: Basically default doesn't need fancy things to make it balanced I don't think so got a couple of ideas here that couple help. I think it's not village that need weakening just Mafia need strengthening. - im gets stalk and fcm gets pl. Not totally op roles but means that they have a chance of finding prs perhaps. Im might need insp though to keep balanced between both factions. - Dons get kill immunity? Really annoying when done gets rand killed by vigi so perhaps this could help mafs - 2 ww when there might only be 1. Ww very outgunned if only 1 so perhaps needs team help. Increasing to 2 keeps it simple. - Mafia villagers :) cause sooo cute ... Like can be called FCM goon or something. Just vote and cause havoc, would save actual maf having to fakeclaim Just ideas guys, will probably come up with some more silly ones so yeah
Iam agreed with samurai too OP in default, i suggest adding a mafia PRs that can outspeed BG or have + votes
We are currently discussing the balancing of default. Multiple ideas have been suggested. Your input is encouraged, post it here: http://tinyurl.com/DefaultDiscussion Make sure to comment on ideas posted in the thread, saying whether you agree or disagree with them. After a short amount of time (anywhere from a day to a week depending on how long discussion takes to take place), a poll will be made where you can all vote on which ideas you like best! The ideas will all be tested under Default A, Default B, Default C, and etc. Each theme will get a 3 day testing period just like regular themes. QC will make a final decision on which version of changes to implement based on scrutiny of the themes and logs, and the input from the users of the #Mafia Channel!
Alright, I'll work on coding the following: No Samurai A "Macho" Samurai that is immune to protect. Giving the FCM a stalk and the IM a distract that doesn't effect the other Mafia. Same as above, minus Samurai.
Then I won't add those 2, and I'll instead work on making Werewolf a Daykiller (maybe even changing the name?)
Daykilling would make little sense flavorwise, since WW transforms at night. I guess it could be passed of as "non-revealing" because he wouldn't be in WW form?
I can make the coding changes. As of yet, we don't know what the people want. I would just wait for more ideas and then have it all decided on a poll for the preferred changes. The ones with most votes should be chosen (by the people). Of course, the options themselves should be fully viable without breaking the idea of Default. Default should even have the possibility to be unique, in it's own way, while still keeping it... default.
That is one option, Mewtwo. Again, leave it up to people to see what they would prefer to see, while giving them options that won't ruin the theme.
I've coded 2 already. Also Roy, I thought about that already, and by changing the Werewolf's name to something like Mad Bomber and making it spawn just before Samurai, it could bypass the flavour problem. Mafia PR's: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=v0Fxz9Et Macho Samurai: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=w5JDgaUm EDIT: Mad Bomber: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=zD6hj8cg