[BW2] Roserade Retest + Ladder Reset

Discussion in 'Gen 5 UU' started by NAVIDAD PIRATE, Jul 14, 2013.

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  1. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ummm lol. Roserade can 2hko Hera with Specs Leaf Storm, and 0hko Shao. These two are revenge killers that don't want to switch into ANYTHING in Roserade's arsenal. IIRC (don't have my calc handy) Shao's Aerial Ace doesn't even 0hko let alone Hi Jump Kick (both from scarfed set. Never Calc'ed LO). Being able to be revenge killed is an awful reason (and I agree that it isn't broken).

    Roserade is among the scariest threats in UU right now (I really can't think of anything any scarier). There is absolutely no doubt about that.

    Secondly, UU has pretty amazing Rapid Spinners. They all have amazing bulk for the tier and some can even use Forsight (Blastoise & Top) to make it impossible to stop a Rapid Spin.

    Thirdly, Crobat isn't even slightly scary.
    And finally, Roserade gets plenty of switch in opportunities and I have extensively tested this. Calling Roserade "Just above average" is silly. Roserade is easily a top tier threat in the current UU metagame.
     
  2. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    So I've been trying the following Defensive Spikes Set:

    Roserade (M) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Giga Drain
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Rest

    I have to say, the metagame has evolved from a slow-paced stall to a frantically fast-paced offensive metagame with the introduction of multiple Fighting-types such as Scarf Heracross, Scrafty, and Mienshao. The increased amount of wallbreakers, especially Fire-types such as Darmanitan and Victini, and Arcanine can easily break through this set and don't really give it much of a chance due to them being very common. Another common wallbreaker who can take this set is Crobat. The metagame is so fast paced that the Rest + Natural Cure combo that worked in the past is now extremely hard to pull off effectively. I claim not broken for this set. I'll try LO and Specs when I get the chance
     
  3. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I'm just going to say this before people get out of control with claiming its not broken so quickly.

    Roserade was a metagame defining Pokemon. It didn't just hit hard or lay down spikes. It made the metagame so centralized around Spike stacking and the fear of Roserade's two vastly different sets. Switching into the wrong set either makes something dead or puts up Spikes and makes switching in that much harder. Go back and read the old thread; see what the arguments were for the ban, and see what has changed since then.

    I'm not saying that Roserade is or isn't broken now, but people are being far too rash in saying that isn't broken because it isn't some unstoppable wallbreaking force, or because the defensive set can wall everything in sight.
     
  4. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    LOL the only invalid argument is yours. Roserade can run an effective scarf set to revenge kill Heracross (if it needs to). I don't see how this was relevant to your awful example or poor logic. Pretty sure extrasensory or Sludge Bomb does a fuck ton. I'm not disagreeing with Roserade being uu, but your logic is down right awful. Something being revenge killed has no fucking relevancy to whether or not it is broken. ESPECIALLY in roserade's case where it was banned for its spike stacking ability rather than its prowess. An argument I could buy for rose being uu is that "the meta is too fast to permit rose to set up more than one layer, as most things can usually threaten to 2hko or taunt it. there's also the prevalence of rapid spin users (which might be mediocre), but can get the job done once rose is forced out. not to mention the existence of fast taunt users like crobat, who most of the time, aren't scared of roserade." Something like this I can agree with. Being "revenge killed" as an argument is fucking horrendous (for anything really) and shows a complete lack of understanding on how roserade even works. it would be a real shame if people like you made decisions about roserade's tier placement, it really would.

    I.e. Your argument is invalid.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2013
  5. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Spirited Away, this is the place to post about Roserade in UU, not the place to flame over other posts about Roserade in UU. Just because he made a mistake doesn't mean you have to attack him. Drop it and move on.
    [SECRET]Won't be surprised if i get a warning for minimodding here[/SECRET]

    The argument/ban was made in the BW1 metagame.
    This is BW2.
    BW1 =/= BW2
    Hence why we're retesting Roserade and having our new opinions about the sets.
     
  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    The "generation" change to BW2 wasn't that big. Meloetta is hardly used, and Torn can't switch into Roserade. I know there are other changes, but you want to bring up shit like a new game, you'll have to name actual changes.

    Again, I didn't say if Rose is or isn't broken, and I know why its being retested (I ran a tour about it). I'm saying that forming these opinions so quickly about a Pokemon that is metagame shifting is a terrible idea. It would be similiar to forming an opinion of Hail after a few days, when it obviously takes much longer for the metagame to adapt to the threat. I'm only asking people to be cautious and actually think through the suspect and its effect on the metagame as a whole, not just as a collection of ~4 sets.

    To whomever brought up that we somehow have better spinners; we don't. We no longer have Donphan, which was probably the best spinner that UU has ever had. Blastoise, Hitmontop, and Claydol can not compare to the mighty Donphan. We also have much better offensive Ghosts, Cofag and Chandelure are much better at stopping a spin than Mismagius was.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  7. Rok

    Rok New Member

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    Roserade in particular is an extremely broken spikes stacker in Uu because of its power, typing, and speed. Roserade is one strong mother fucker with the nice base 125 sp.atk, uninvested that hits 286, almost as much as max sp.atk base 100. This makes the defensive set hard to beat because although it wont be invested in sp.atk at all, it still hits like a truck. The best is sash lead. Sash lead runs max max sp.atk speed and hits a nice 306 speed partnered with 349 sp.atk. Clearly very powerful. Now this thing gets up at the very least 2 layers up of hazards because its fast and sashed. Froslass all over again. Froslass was arguably more broken because it was a ghost type and nothing could spin on it as it sets up. Well with roserade the most common spinners blastoise gets straight ohko'd by Roserade while hitmontop cant touch it for its life while it just gets 2hko'd. Neither of these spinners can afford to come in on it or just be in against it. So nothing can spin against it either which makes it just as broken as froslass, if not more because it can actually damage a team a lot with its dual stab. Also, another broken factor to consider is tspikes which is usually ran on the sash lead (giga drain sludge bomb spikes tspikes). Tspikes hinder all spinners but tentacool and claydol, both of which u NEVER see in uu (and claydol gets fucked by giga drain). So roserade doesnt even have to be in to deal with the spinners itself, u go to ur spin blocker as they bring in their spinner and their survivability is greatly hindered for the rest of the match. "Poison types elliminate tspikes just by switching in." The only poison types in the tier are crobat and nidoking/queen and crobat doesnt even eliminate the tspikes because its flying. The Nidos have such low usage and so all other teams gets destroyed by those tspikes. Also they are usually just leads so you can take them out early game which allows tspikes to stay up the entire game. So, spinners and poison types cant do shit against roserade+spin blocker. "Blastoise gets forseight". It does, but if u bring in chandelure on that thing, it can easily live a scald and proceed to kill it off with an energy ball unless Blastoise is specially defensive which NOBODY runs (nobody good that is). Even if they want to predict that and switch into something to take an energy ball, spikes damage is racking up every time that thing switches in AND its toxiced so it cant come in anymore to take any hit because at that point it would be at about 50%, so its not switching in on anything. This just shows how stupid roserade in Uu is and if people learn to use it (which they will soon) it will be the same as froslass was before which NOBODY wants. "Froslass is Uu on Smogon." Yeah, its getting suspect-tested now and I guarantee it will be banned. There is no arguement, Roserade will unbalance the tier and will definitely be over-centralizing once people realize just how broken it is as they did with froslass.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  8. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Someone help save this thread...

    @swell rindo berry blastoise is extremely uncommon and gets wrecked by STAB. so is claydol. and SR is a big worry for articuno. And Specs Leaf Storm does a lot to Top.

    and seriously guys this thread is turning to shit
     
  9. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    Hi.

    Just banned a dude and infracted a couple of others so yeah let's stay on topic.
     
  10. Rok

    Rok New Member

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    Ur right this set is not broken because it doesnt take advantage of roserade's true power. The sash lead set is by far the best because its a suicide lead and u get up at least 2 layers of spikes or 1 layer spikes and 1 tspikes to hinder all spinners seeing as the only poison types are nido's and crobat (but crobat doesnt get rid of tspikes). Nido's are hardly used and also nidoqueen is always just a lead and gets sacked early in the game. It destroys all spinners so no spinner is going to switch in on it as it gets up its free spikes.
     
  11. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I don't think roserade is fast enough to always gets 2 layers of spikes up, being I believe base 90. Don't get me wrong, that's in no way slow, but it's just not fast enough to always get up 2 layers, and if always getting up 2 layers was broken, crustle would be long gone. If the people you're playing are just sacking nidoqueen early game, I don't think they're using it right.
     
  12. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Don't compare Froslass to Roserade as Spikestackers because there is no point.

    Unlike Roserade, Froslass is GUARANTEED 1 or 2 layers with higher speed and Rapid Spin immunity and can beat Crobat, the best stallbreaker in UU, one-on-one with Ice Beam (whilst Roserade loses every time). Also, Froslass + Ghost = no spin, whereas it's possible to get around Roserade + Ghost (I've tried. Twice).

    Sash on Roserade is also a total waste because 90 Speed isn't a "guaranteed Spikes" and the whole point of SpikeRose is that it can come back and Spike again, not die instantly and get one layer. As a kamikaze dual Spiker, use Scolipede.

    Btw, Nidoking is actually a common threat in UU. Look at the usage.
     
  13. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I like Roserade in UU. Offense has become much more prominent because hazards can stay up longer on the field cause Rose easily beats the common spinners (I wonder if people will start running Cryo?) and access to Natural Cure, Giga Drain, Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Rest can easily help her survive to come in over and over in a match to set up hazards if forced out.

    I've used the Specs set and an offensive spiking set and I have to say the latter was more effective. Though Specs hits like a truck and can 2HKO Snorlax/Pory2/Umbreon with prior damage there are still a few good switchins. Metagross and Bronzong are good switches in bar the rare HP Fire (I don't think it 2HKO's Zong though) and easily OHKO's back. Next would be Chandelure that can take anything except HP Rock or something although hazards will wear it down to the point where it can be 2HKO'd by one of Roserade's STABs. I'd also look to Crobat and most other Flying types, though Crobat is good for also resisting Sludge Bomb. Sleep Powder of course renders all these counters helpless except for Sleep Talk Snorlax though so it may be a problem. I actually haven't used Sleep Powder on the Specs set.

    The offensive Spiker set (Spikes, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed is my 4th, but Synthesis or Rest could be used, or some Hidden Power) switches into Blastoise, Suicune, Empoleon (not offensive with Ice Beam though!) and Milotic all day and just sets up on them. You have to play carefully around Swampert and Slowbro though because Earthquake and Psyshock respectively OHKO Roserade without any defensive investment at least. Rhyperior and Golurk both OHKO with Earthquake as well. Rose might beat Nidoking with Extrasensory or a weakened one with Giga Drain but it definitely can't come in on a Fire Blast or Ice Beam - Earth Power might 2HKO too. I don't think Nidoqueen OHKO's with anything, which does show how impressive Rose's natural bulk is.

    But basically the things that Roserade can switch into are the spinners themselves or Water-types, which is totally understandable because Rose is a Grass type that can set up on them (and as I pointed out, not even all).

    The Spiker has problems with much of the same Pokemon as the specs set does although it will never get past Snorlax or Porygon2. Roserade can set up on Umbreon if it has Leech Seed or Synthesis so Umbreon can't really stop it. But again, Metagross and Chandelure are good stops. Crobat and Tornadus can Taunt it, although they both outspeed and OHKO it anyways. Xatu can wall it pretty well but it does have to watch for HP Rock or Ice from the Specs set, but the Spiker sets are effectively neutralized.

    Rose actually can't really switch into a lot of the rest of the UU tier. All the physical attackers can 2HKO besides like Gligar I think. You could come in on Shaymin without Psychic or Air Slash but physical Virizion can beat you, a special Virizion with a Calm Mind boost can take Sludge Bomb pretty well, and it'll be hard to get past Amoonguss without a Specs Extrasensory or something (and I think you lose out on Sleep Powder if you have that, so not worth it imo).

    I really don't see how a Sashed Roserade is the most effective set nor how it can easily get 2 layers up. As said above Crobat (or Tornadus, or Sableye) can Taunt it without risk. Darmanitan, Victini, Arcanine, Scarf Heracross, Mienshao, scarf Chandelure, offensive Zapdos, Extrasensory Raikou, Flygon, Meloetta, Rotom-H, offensive Shaymin, Virizion, Weavile, Mew, Durant, Metagross, and Yanmega can all limit it to one layer of Spikes. And a lead set of double spikes + STAB won't beat Xatu any time soon.

    Amoonguss is another (very) viable Poison type in UU which absorbs the Toxic Spikes and as I said take on most Roserades. Nidoking isn't hardly used, it's used 7.70% of the time according to the usage statistics which is actually more than Roserade which sits around 6.7%. Nidoqueen and Amoonguss aren't far off at around 5% and of course there's the factor of opposing Roserades to absorb Toxic Spikes. Not to mention Nidoqueen isn't always "sacked early in the game" - it's got quite a few uses, namely absorbing Volt Switches from Raikou and Zapdos and switching into the plethora of Fighting types in the tier as a solid check.

    So yeah, I'd say a non-sashed Roserade is probably more deadly due to its survivability, but there's plenty of ways to limit its set-up opportunities by keeping up offensive pressure as 90 speed isn't the greatest in the tier.
     
  14. BeautifulMisery

    BeautifulMisery 無意味なうつ病

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    Honestly I'm not a big fan of this reset and meta game change cause I was never a big roserade fan and now I admit I'm using it with a toxic spikes and venoshock combo but thats just a goofy gimmick I use now since the reset to survive but lately I have been thinking of using kingdra or something since I need to get my old score back.

    Really I don't have an argument I just have an opinion and that is...roserade is OK in UU but reset was just plain annoying/stupid/pointless but thats just my goofy little opinion.
     
  15. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    The reset was necessary to clear a bunch of Prankster faggots off the ladder, js. It wasn't just for the Roserade retest.
     
  16. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ummm LOL. Sash lead is NOT the best Roserade set. It by no means takes advantage of Roserade's true power like the LO and Specs sets do by abusing it's monstrous Sp.A stat.

    Windblown by far has one of the most intelligent and well thought out posts on this thread. He hits it right on the nose IMO (we disagree on best set but w/e). He actually beat me to running the Offensive Spiking set (was a theory of mine because the defensive didn't work well for me) and knows the tier very well.

    The biggest problems Roserade has are the base 90 speed, the Ground neutrality, and the inability to switch into many Pokemon in the tier (even special attackers despite the bulk). Spinners can't really beat Spiking Roserade 1 on 1 except for maybe Hitmontop. Paired with a Ghost spinning can be rather difficult. Cryo gets 3hko'd by the Specs set (only because of lefties) so I can see it becoming more popular if Roserade stays. Cryo wins 1 on 1 against all Roserade sets without prior damage.

    At the end of the day there are different ways to counter Roserade depending on the set it uses. On non-choiced sets Sleep Powder will always be a problem when it comes to checking/countering, but every set has very clear counters and checks and they aren't all that uncommon. I still think we should listen to Xdevo's advice and wait a bit longer to see how Roserade truly effects the tier before making a final decision.
     
  17. Rok

    Rok New Member

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    The sash lead set does take advantage of the power because its not necessary to run an item that boosts its sp.atk to take advantage of it. Its a suicide lead and the only thing that doesnt allow it to get up 2 layers is crobat chilling at the low 7% usage. So 7% of teams can disallow roserade to get up 2 layers. And if they lead with a crobat against rose, they dont know what ur set is they are obviously gonna brave bird 1st turn not wanting to get destroyed by a nice lo hp ice, and u can easily find a switch to crobat's weak base 90 atk stat brave bird.

    You think windblown's set is the best? Please I have trouble with roserade every time I see it yet I faced him earlier today and beat him lol. And u said hitmontop has a chance at rose? That's so wrong its not even funny. The base 90atk close combat with no atk investment while getting resisted does nill on roserade despite it's hp and defense and u can easily giga drain 3/4 of that hp right back. Simple. And cryogonal wouldn't get popular even if roserade stayed because it sucks and nothing will change that. People aren't gonna wreck their team by running a bad cryogonal set just because roserade is getting high usage. PM me if u want the log of me vs windblown, I won't make it public; that would just be rude to him.

    And yes, there are different ways to counter roserade depending on the set as u said. But guess what, roserade has 3-4 viable sets that make it impossible to predict which one it's using so you cant just say that its easy to counter.

    Roserade almost always does get the 2 layers up just like froslass did because its still fast and its way stronger than froslass was. You can argue thats its not guarentee'd but it takes so little prediction to get the 2 layers up that its hardly worth mentioning. Crobat sits at the cool 7% usage which isnt very common at all really so its not even a threat to the team. Also if you have a problem with something on ur team taking a base 90 stat brave bird than ur team sucks. Roserade beats so many things that froslass couldnt. And roserade itself is not a spin blocker but it easily destroys all spinner that would try and come in on it.

    Sash rose is not a waste at all, and considering you haven't actually used it to test how broken it is and how easily it gets up 2 layers, you can't complain. If you look at the tier list, the only things that are faster than rose that are actually used on a decent team are so easy to counter with a decent team. Of course there are things that are faster than it, but the things that are lack in sp/atk.

    And I did look at nidoking, sitting at the cool 7.8%. Super high right? 7.8+5.8 (nidoqueen's usage)= 13.6%. Which means 86.4% of teams get donked by tspikes.

    Unlike froslass, you can't lead roserade and get up 2 layers automatically. However, people play obviously against spikes stacker to try and minimize the amount of layers they get up, so its extremely easy to just make 1 prediction and get up a 2nd layer. And you cant compare crustle to roserade because crustle gets destroyed by any spinner (were talking about uu right now). Hitmontop can toxic then spin, blastoise automatically threatens it with scald and can spin (those are the 2 most common spinners in uu.) Also crustle is far far weaker and has worse coverage in comparison to roserade.

    And its not like they just sack the nidoqueen early game, however they almost always lead with it (you can tell by looking at other potential leads on their team, nido is usually the one they choose.) All you have to do is go to a poke that takes it on with ease because their intent is usually just to get rocks up and so it's easy to kill it off then and there.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2013
  18. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    Honestly, Accelgor can do the same thing, it's just a little weaker, but it's much faster and has a better lead ability in Unburden (once it loses its sash, it is guaranteed to get a layer up). It's a much better suicide Spike Lead than Roserade imo.

    Roserade is far better as an offensive spiker, defensive or Specs.

    Still yet to try out the Scarf set, I plan to do it tomorrow.
     
  19. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Learn to read. I said his post. Learn speed tiers. Crobat is always faster unless Roserade is scarfed in that case Crobat would live HP Ice and Extrasensory. Even the Crobat will either Brave Bird or Taunt first turn, probably the former because you don't want to risk an offensive set or die off of a predicted Taunt. Learn to read again. Hitmontop can spin on that Roserade. Not to mention Top also carries Earthquake. Uninvested Roserade can't take EQ's all day long. Beating Windblown doesn't mean anything in terms of this thread. Not to mention a suicide lead dies and you can spin after. If you want a suicide lead Spiker go for Accelgor. Does the job much better. Roserade functions as a constant spiker so much better. Cryo can easily get popular because there is nothing Roserade can do to it that isn't Sleep Powder. Cryo walls the living shit outta Roserade.

    I'm not even going to comment on your other two post....

    All of Roserade's sets are countered by the same few pokes. Please learn before you post. K thx bai.

    EDIT: Yes I will.

    You can easily spin away these Tspikes especially after your SUICIDE lead is gone. Then there is no getting it back up. Not to mention the offensive nature of the tier makes it so something that threatens Roserade will probably be in the lead spot. Nidoqueen is incredibly difficult to 0hko.. so don't even go there. If you lead with something that threatens it that much your opponent will probably switch out wanting to save one of the best defensive pokes in the tier. Univested Roserade is not threatening to Hitmontop. You also forgot to calc the usage of other poison types in the tier.. and you are making it seem like 2 layers of spikes is deadly.. if that were the case Accelgor would be banned from LU. Bad logic there too. Sash Roserade is an awful idea because every other spiking Roserade set does the SAME THING while being able to LAST LONGER. Hence why sash is a waste of an item.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  20. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Just some tidbits:

    [SECRET]

    The point of Spikes Roserade is to abuse its Special Defense to get a free Spikes and continuously come back in, not let it die and let a perfectly good Pokemon that can beat so many things on its own go to waste.

    90 Speed in this format is above-average, not fast.

    The set definitely guarantees 1 layer, but not 2.

    Crobat isn't supposed to sit on Brave Bird, it's supposed to sit on Taunt and Roost while stallers/weaker Pokemon can do nothing.

    Crobat usage is spiking specifically because of Roserade.

    Look at the usage list again:

    # 6 - Raikou (13.52 %)

    13.52 < 13.6

    That's a higher average usage than Raikou >_>[/SECRET]
    Seriously, do some more homework before you post.
     
  21. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    So with some further thinking and further testing i feel like Roserade shouldn't be allowed in UU. It is by no means broken but it helps maintain a healthy metagame. I'm a sucker for balance and the UU meta has been constantly shifting into a less balanced, less quality metagame. It's becoming more and more like OU and for that reason I think it should stay out, but then again that's just me not liking the shift UUis taking
     
  22. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    I thinking 50/50 now.

    Roserade is nowhere as broken as it was in the past. Getting SR is more important than Spikes.
    Its offensive checks are pokes which are more dangerous than her. (Chandy, Victini , Zapdos , Togekiss , Cobalion , Metagross)

    For me the main drawback is the low BST (505), Its 60/55/105 defenses in particular. You will need most of your EVs to buff the former two.
    Without extra SpD LO Zapdos kills you with Thunderbolt + Heatwave.
    Speedwise , defensive Xatu should be your goal. So you have to run some Speed.
    SpA can help to 2HKO Xatu, however i think its not needed because 286 SpA Sludge Bomb still breaks +1 Raikous Sub.
     
  23. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    If anything it's going to be the offensive set in question, not the (defensive) spiking sets. Looking at your offensive checks, the first 4 you mentioned get 2hko'd and are weak to rocks (which is nice to have with Roserade) so their checking ability is severely hampered. The Stealth Rock weakness also makes them a whole lot less threatening with the current meta oriented as it is. I don't think you've seen the calcs for Roserade vs Cobalion. Cobalion doesn't appreciate a Leaf Storm at all despite the resistance. And even Offensive sets fail to really threaten Roserade unless they are Banded of LO'd. Even then all of the pokes you mentioned aren't really more threatening than Roserade except for maybe Metagross. They are either equally or less threatening. You don't need to invest in the defensive stats when it comes to Roserade. Purely offensive is (in my opinion) the best way to EV it. Whether you run a Spiking set or not offensive EV's are Roserade's niche.

    Roserade vs Cobalion calcs
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 64.2% - 75.93%
    2 hits to KO
    252 -2 SpAtk Life Orb Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 32.1% - 37.65%
    3-4 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 53.89% - 63.73%
    2 hits to KO
    252 -2 SpAtk Life Orb Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 26.94% - 31.61%
    4 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 74.07% - 87.04%
    2 hits to KO
    252 -2 SpAtk Choice Specs Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 36.73% - 43.52%
    3 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 62.18% - 73.06%
    2 hits to KO
    252 -2 SpAtk Choice Specs Roserade (+SpAtk) Leaf Storm vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Cobalion: 30.83% - 36.53%
    3-4 hits to KO
    252 Atk Cobalion (+Atk) Iron Head vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 68.97% - 81.61%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion (+Atk) Iron Head vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 89.66% - 106.13%
    37.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Iron Head vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 81.99% - 96.93%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion Iron Head vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 94.25% - 111.49%
    68.75% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion (+Atk) Iron Head vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 103.83% - 122.22%
    Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Cobalion (+Atk) Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 51.72% - 60.92%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion (+Atk) Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 67.05% - 79.31%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 61.3% - 72.03%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 70.5% - 83.14%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion (+Atk) Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 77.39% - 91.19%
    2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 70.5% - 83.14%
    2 hits to KO
    0 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 48.66% - 57.85%
    2-3 hits to KO
    0 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Roserade: 36.78% - 43.3%
    3 hits to KO
    Roserade will beat most variants of Cobalion, especially since he can't switch into any attacks. This is just Leaf Storm. Roserade can carry HP Fire and/or Extrasensory and I didn't even calc those.[/HIDE]
     
  24. Rok

    Rok New Member

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    You're right in the sr is more important than stealth rocks but u cant stack those. Roserade can for certain get up 1 layer of spikes and almost always get up 2. With that in mind, if you get ur 2 layers up early game you can pair it up with something like sharpedo and its pretty much good game from there because there is not much in the tier that wants a crunch/waterfall/eq from an adamant lo sharpedo after some hazards.

    Uu will never be like Ou because perm weather is not in uu (thank goodness). It is by some means broken because of its strength speed power and ability to get hazards up. But I agree, Uu has become a less quality tier in comparison to how it was 6 months ago. Hopefully when gen 6 comes out Uu will be once again the best tier.

    It would be pretty hard to get more wrong than that. Spikes stack roserade by no means is to get spikes up and keep switching in and out to abuse its sp.def. You cant have a good tank when one of it's defenses is shitty, it has like base 50 defense, any physical attacker can come in and take it out. What are you gonna do, switch? Cool, free u-turn switch initiative every time u bring roserade back in and you wanna save it.

    And as I've said many times, I'm well aware that its not a guarentee'd 2 layers but if you try the set and you know what you are doing, it is almost effortless to get up both layers. Agree'd base 90 speed is above average, not fast but then again most people only have like 2 pokes on their team that have more than 306 speed, usually a scarfer and one other overall fast poke. But again people play obviously against roserade because it is such a threat and they don't want to let it get up too many layers of hazards. And they aren't gonna switch things in willy-nilly, they are going to go into their defensive poke half the time because obviously THEY DON'T KNOW YOUR SET, you could be life orb or specs for all they know and not many things want that leaf storm.

    If they lead crobat on a roserade they will brave bird, they will not fucking taunt. You go into whatever you have to take a brave bird from crobat (which is more than likely half your team) and easily threaten it out as it is frail, easy prediction because the opp will uturn.

    Yes #6 is raikou and the nido's combined is >than raikou's usage. That doesnt change the fact that one of the 2 are used on 13.6% of teams and the other 86.4% of teams get fucked by tspikes.

    Accelgor also gets cant do shit if hitmontop or blastoise comes in, easy spin. Its not a little weaker, its base 25sp.atk weaker and has one stab of a terrible offensive typing. Roserade's dualstab is amazing as it covers just about everything in uu besides crobat. So no accelgor is shit compared to roserade as a suicide lead.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 31, 2013
  25. ThatIsWhatSheSaid

    ThatIsWhatSheSaid seasoned vet

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    If your team insta loses to Sharpedo after just two layers of Spikes then you're simply teambuilding poorly. Plenty of mons can check/counter Pedo quite effectively, such as Hitmontop, Sableye Bronzong, Amoongus, etc, with the later two not minding Spikes at all. And this really has more to do w/ Sharpedo than Roserade anyways.

    Just cuz Roserade has poor defense doesn't mean a specially defensive set can't be a "good tank" and won't find times to come in and set up. Sure, it doesn't set up Spikes with the ease it did when it was banned. But there's plenty of bulky waters and others that don't threaten Rose (just in the top 5, Rose can come in and set up Spikes on Umbreon and Blastoise). Sure you can switch to a physical attacker to force it out but in the process it will have gotten a layer of Spikes up so I really don't see what you're saying here, especially since the rest of your posting has portrayed a layer or two of Spikes as the most broken thing ever (which it really isn't).

    You still are completely neglecting the other Poison types in the tier right now. If we tally them all up, and I mean actually all of them, we get:
    Roserade (7.93 %) + Nidoking (7.84 %) + Nidoqueen (4.97 %) + Amoonguss (4.67 %) + Qwilfish (3.59 %)+ Venomoth (2.44 %) + Scolipede (1.86 %) = 28.63%. Which is more than twice as much as what you painted it out to be.

    Accelgor does just fine as a suicide lead. It has a much higher base speed so its more likely to get up two layers than Roserade, and it has Giga Drain for Blastoise as well as Final Gambit to psuedo-spinblock. Many pokes besides Crobat resist Rose's dual stab, including but not limited to: Bronzong, Metagross, Registeel, and Cobalion.

    So first of all, please stop multi posting. Second, please stop discounting other's opinions so easily and put a little bit more thought into your own.
     
  26. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic It's no use!

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    Hello. Sorry if my response is a little late(haven't been checking the thread, haha!).

    Firstly, your post is factually inaccurate. Choice Specs Leaf Storm cannot 2HKO Heracross, owing to the Grass resistance it has and also the -2 SAtk drop. And my quoted post clearly stated that Roserade cannot OHKO Heracross, therefore I do not understand the point that you are trying to make.

    Furthermore, I was referring to Heracross OHKO'ing Roserade. The fact that Heracross can switch in, without dying, and with its scarf OHKO Roserade with Megahorn shows that Roserade absolutely cannot stand up to Physical attackers. Do note that you are referring to the specs set, which again corroborates with my post. Unless Roserade is Scarfed, it cannot outspeed the standard ScarfCross and get OHKO'd in the face(assuming no switches). I do not know what you are trying to rebut here.

    Secondly, "Roserade is among the scariest threats..." is not a fact; its just your own opinion. I will not comment on that.

    Thirdly, UU DOES NOT have amazing Rapid Spinners. That is what makes Roserade scary in its aspect. I have 0% idea why you are trying to contradict yourself; calling Roserade "scary" then calling the Rapid Spinners "good". Blastoise, Claydol and Top all lose 1v1 vs Roserade.

    Lastly, your post lacks facts and is mainly filled with opinion "Crobat isn't even slightly scary". I mean, it really isn't scary, but please avoid posting like this. For starters, my opinion is that Crobat should not be the main thing that you should be worried about in this meta.


    @no avatar guy: I didn't bother reading your bullshit. Enjoy infraction.
     
  27. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Neither have I, but I am about to explain exactly what is wrong with your post.

    I'm going to calc Timid Specs Roserade, just to make it that little bit less damage.
    252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 174-205 (57.8 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -2 252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 87-103 (28.9 - 34.21%) -- 3.3% chance to 3HKO
    Overall = 86.7% - 102.31%.

    That's just shy of a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. For further information, Modest does a minimum of 63.45 + 31.89 = 95.34%, which is a guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

    So that alone shows that you haven't calculated the damage done by Roserade, and are thus stating incorrect information.

    Roserade has moves other than Leaf Storm. Coverage moves for Heracross, such as HP Fire or Extrasensory, are straight OHKOs on Heracross. Sludge Bomb has a chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock too. Feel free to calculate those, I just did. The point is that Heracross cannot switch in safely. Can it revenge kill Roserade after Roserade has killed something? Of course it can. Does that have any impact on Roserade's tiering? Not in the slightest.

    Yes, it is an opinion. No need to talk down to him.

    I actually agree with you here. UU's spinners aren't too good, and all of them lose to Roserade.

    Your post lacks facts and is filled with inaccuracies, as I pointed out at the top. You are not a moderator of this forum, and it is not your job to tell other posters to avoid posting in certain ways.

    Also Crobat is an amazing Pokémon in UU that is a legit check to Roserade. More people should use Crobat. Just my 2 cents.


    I'll deal with this in a moment. Enjoy your infraction :)
     
  28. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    If you UU guys are desperate for a spinner that stands up to Roserade, try Cryogonal. It's a great special wall too. Can't think of any other usable (Delibird lgi) spinners that actually worry Roserade though.
     
  29. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    The problem with Cryogonal is its crap defense. If it had, say, 65 Base Defense, it would be better. In its case, it's either Roserade killer or dead weight (although I do find it really underrated). Doesn't help that the UU metagame is mostly physical anyway -.-
     
  30. Metal Sonic

    Metal Sonic It's no use!

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    Your calculations alone already prove my point. For one, I did not include Stealth Rock into the equation, and save for a high damage roll, Timid Roserade is unable to 2HKO Heracross most of the time. I only read the "Guaranteed 3HKO" on my calculation. I felt no need to include the Modest set nor the "high damage roll" scenario as these situations are niche.

    Furthermore, I refer to the post quoted by Celebi. In my original post, I had clearly stated that "Roserade cannot OHKO Heracross". 2HKO-ing is already taking it further, as I have shown that it is irrelevant to my point; in that Heracross can switch in, outpace and kill Roserade, and I have proven that in the average scenario, Roserade also does not have a guaranteed 2HKO on Heracross.

    In case you require a calc to verify that Heracross cleanly OHKOs Roserade,
    252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Roserade: 307-363 (117.17 - 138.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    As I have stated in my previous post, I do not know what point he is trying to make.

    If you really want to take this to the extremes, and I believe that you are aware that these are unsafe territory due to the rarity of these situations, HP Fire from Timid Roserade cannot OHKO Heracross, and there is a small chance that Heracross can also survive an Extrasensory.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 234-276 (77.74 - 91.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Choice Specs Roserade Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 266-314 (88.37 - 104.31%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    These situations are extremely rare, and my point still stands that Heracross can switch in on Roserade(without Stealth Rocks) and proceed to OHKO with Megahorn.

    "filled with inaccuracies" seems to be too strong a term to be used here, especially considering that you had included Stealth Rocks in your calcs which neither of us had mentioned.

    My sincerest apologies for being rude and minimodding. I had quite enjoyed the post(and replying it) by Celebi, in fact.




    EDIT: Pssst! Oak already helped to defend you! I'll reply to you tomorrow :o
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  31. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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  32. Fille

    Fille True GenderBender

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    Time to bring inner focus mienshao with Acrobatics :P

    I was a bit worried that the metagame would be a little bit too centralised around stall when Roserade returned, but seeing that roselia actually does the spike stacking job better, most ppl tend to run offensive LO with Sleep powder it seems. I do fear that people will use Chandelure more now tho :[

    This might be a bad place to discuss Cryogonal, but just want to mention that Cryogonal was a suggestion for people worried about Roserade, not Rhyperior, and it's 140 Sp.def (Correct me if I'm wrong) is good enough to counter a Special attacker.


    "Lots of teams" and "Are scary in this meta" aren't really valid points. As for teams, try stating it as a percent ratio (About 80% of all teams in this tiers has only 2 pokemons or less above 306 speed.) As for the "Are scary in this meta" basically means your teams can't handle it. It doesn't mean other teams can't. When it comes to roserade, Heracross can OHKO, and it's the most common pokemon in the tier. There are lots of Fire types capable of switching in on and OHKOing/Revengekilling Roserade, + 4 very decent Psychic types to revengekill, Flying types like Zapdos/Honchkrow/Crobat can freely switch in on it most of the times, baring random HP's and Extrasensory (For Crobat) (Eventhough I don't know how much Honchkrow takes from a Leaf Storm). We also have things like Umbreon/Snorlax that can freely switch in on it I believe (I haven't calced this, so if anyone wants to, then bring it on :]). Now proving your "point", we have a lot of Bulky water types that loses to Leaf storm, and all the ground types in this tier loses to it too, + some very frail fast sweepers that can't switch in on it, like Mienshao, Ambipom (yuck), Raikou and Mismagius .


    And I'll start using Cryogonal again :P
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  33. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Roserade is definitely not broken. With things like Chandelure, Heracross (somewhat), Victini, and Togekiss being able to switch in relatively well, and also being able to smash Roserade with ease, it loses much of the usability it used to have.
     
  34. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Only Chandelure out of those can switch in relatively well, a timid life orb sludge bomb 2hko's the rest, with togekiss it depends on the set, but its bulkiest set is nearly always 2hko'd after rocks, especially with poison chance taken in to consideration.
     
  35. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Chandy doesn't even appreciate hits. Not to mention the Modest LO/Specs sets... or that Roserade can carry Shadow Ball. The pokes he mentioned are iffy at best.
     
  36. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Nothing can safely switch in on Victini, Porygon-z, or Meloetta either so I doubt that's a contributor to Roserade's brokenness or lack of thereof.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  37. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Switching in on Victini is actually REALLY easy (Scarf/Band sets being the most common). Same for Meloetta. I've never really used or faced Porygon-Z (recently) so I'm not really sure about that one, but it does contribute to Roserade's brokenness.
     
  38. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    Victini's mixed set 2hko's everything lol so idk what you're talking about. Same for meloetta.
     
  39. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    KOing every Pokemon in the tier doesn't make it broken, having very few if not any official checks/counters AND KOing every Pokemon in the tier makes it broken.

    In other words, a killer is only broken if it can't be killed.

    Trailing from this, I'm going towards not broken because Roserade KOs and sets up on a lot, but, in this metagame, Roserade is not CLOSE to unstoppable. In fact, with low defense and okay-at-best speed, many things can check it now.

    90 Speed is rather average in this format, Sleep Powder is really overrated on Roserade (you put a Pokemon to sleep, but you realize you have nothing to abuse or against it and are forced a switch anyway), it is MUCH harder to heal than it used to be, and physical defense is a letdown.

    Roserade is great, but it isn't ban-worthy imo
     
  40. Fille

    Fille True GenderBender

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    Registeel can switch in on Porygon-z. Slowbro can switch in on Victini, surviving anything if not SpecsThunder, and can like this scout the set. Heals itself when switching out.
     
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