Bulbasaur, GO!

Discussion in 'News' started by coyotte508, Oct 11, 2010.

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  1. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

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    I agree with everything Coyotte and DN did, they created this PO for you to enjoy anw. A bit sad 'cause they were not honest at the first place although I don't know much abt the logic bomb case.

    I will wait for a proper release of PO gen 5 ^^ thank you Coyotte and DN, the previous days I have a lot of fun on gen 5 server :D
     
  2. Lamperi

    Lamperi I see what you did there

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    I'm pretty sure some of these odds were fixed in Stadium, at least focus energy glitch.
     
  3. evilblob

    evilblob Member

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    Whilst I can understand (sort of) why you might take this down, I know full well I wouldn't, but I suppose Coyotee has the power, not me.

    From the website's homepage

    Surely dumping 5th Gen for the time being will let PokéLab take this title, eventually.

    Also, getting rid of this means the tiers and metagame will take a lot longer to work out. With this it could be done before the US release without it could be months after the US release.
     
  4. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Depends on whether or not PL release it, I'm not sure if they have said anything, but they might take the same stance as PO to avoid anything with Nintendo, but meh I don't really get it so yeah

    Yes that was posted in the First Gen thread in the suggestions Sub-Forum.
     
  5. Cease Tick

    Cease Tick New Member

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    You guys, there isn't any potential legal issue with Pokemon Online. Nintendo has never attacked any simulator before, so why would it break precedent and start now? Suppose that Coyotte did keep the server up and he did get a letter to C&D. In that case he can just take down the server then and be justified. Better to have loved and lost etc etc. Furthermore, B/W is already available to almost the entire world via import anyway. How does the US release make the simulator any more legal than it was before?

    I think that the following log from #stark might help to give some insight into Coyotte's motives.
     
  6. Erebos

    Erebos Banned

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    Well, I like to fancy myself as one of the people who helped a bit during development, and I'm certainly not angry at you, coyotte, for delaying - and I believe most of the others agree with me. I also pretty much understood that the logic bomb was a scam right away... it is good that you admitted it openly, but you should have trusted us, the staff, at least. Anyway, what is done is done, but consider the fact that for most of the staff, the first loyalty is to PO, not to their own desire to play 5th gen, or anything else.

    I will not comment on anything else.
     
  7. Lady Umb

    Lady Umb 寅丸 星

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    Well, I'm not angry at all after coyotte, just like Gold. If he decided to stop 5th gen on PO, I respect his choice as he did it for good reasons. Waiting 6 months is not a biggie or something impossible, IMO. We'll have RBY/151 to play, in stead.

    Ill of course help, if you need something.
     
  8. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Well, that's a lot of suppositions.

    You all seem to take Nintendo as an enemy, while it's them that provide us those games. You all suggest to get to this before Nintendo even releases the game in other countries.

    As I am, I love GameFreak for the game they did. And I wouldn't do something that they wouldn't approve of, even if I risked nothing. Being a pirate that does something he thinks is wrong but still does it because he knows he has no risk to be sued doesn't interest me.

    Now, I don't know if this is the opinion of GameFreak at all. Maybe GameFreak is totally fine with us. Maybe not. Maybe what I'm phrasing is not GameFreak's opinion. Anyway, law threats or not, if GameFreak phrases their opinion, I'll follow it even if there's no legal risk involved. As much as you have (had?) a lot of respect for me, I have a lot of respect for GameFreak.

    Now, the logic bomb. If I really wanted to, I could just have put the lie in oblivion and the great majority of you would never have known it was a lie. But no, I went straightforward with it. I agree it wasn't the best decision at the time, but what "damage" did it really do? That lie was especially aimed to the people that got their hands on a leaked version anyway, I never released that version even as an official testing version. So it only affected you really if you were one of the people getting your hands on that version. Moreover, about the lack of trust and everything, it was at a time there were leaks within the staff itself -- hell, all that alpha was a full leakage --, and I honestly wanted to tell the truth to the rest of the staff, but it would have been on #stark 10 minutes after I would have said it on Indigo, at that time, out of spite by one particular staff member at that time, or even if not as the time flew by, some of you who had strong ties with other competitive communities and couldn't force yourself to keep such a secret to their close friends.

    Now, the legal side. I didn't want really to talk about this point, but all of you insist over it. Even though I don't like it, I'll answer the legal concern some of you express.

    You people are saying Netbattle and Shoddy never had any concern. So what?

    Netbattle and Shoddy still have a relatively small fraction of players (500 can't be called too much). I'm not saying PO is better, I'm satisfied with that number of players too. And they never implemented the game mechanics pre release. At best, they only released the new metagames several months after the release of the games in US.

    About the 5th gen, even though I didn't advertise it at all, a lot of people were interested in it. Even though I wanted to keep testing with a reasonable number of testers and even said in my last Beta Testing thread that I didn't want any website linking to it, the hype couldn't be stopped. Proof is, the ruckus caused when I stopped 5th gen, and all those lovely /tr/ainers insulting me. As a Pokemon player, I was happy that so many people were so interested in Gen V, having already 180 people in a private server so early and without any decrease in the number of people in the Beta Server, and I was worried of the number it would reach when released and public.

    I also asked people out about my legal concerns. Most of you people in this thread are saying there would be no problem etc., but what law experience do you have? Are some of you actually lawyers, law students, or legal counselor? I won't reveal the names of the people I asked, because in the end I took the decision myself and wouldn't want them to get any of this uproar. Just know I took some advice too.

    Now then, you'll all be able to play this later. You won't get me by saying that PL might have an edge over us. Both the programs are free, and you are free to choose the one you want. I'm not trying to eat the players and will always do things I judge best, regardless if changing the rating system right now instead of later or doing some particular things would get me more communities playing here.

    About the the original post, I didn't want to make a dramatic boring post like you'd see on such cases. Hence the joking tone. But you guys should listen to the music played along those screenshots, it really made me want to play Pokemon Blue. But the OP should have been enough in my opinion. And I don't have the pretention to say the decision I took was for your best, it's the decision I want to take, and I only said you'll be able to play it sooner or later.

    And also one thing. After the first alpha testing people were complaining and wanted to play 5th gen again, so I gave them the opportunity to play 5th gen with relatively good mechanics for a few days more. But I guess that was a stupid mistake on my part, because it only increased the crave for it for some of you.

    And I have some other things I want to say and elaborate, but I think that those will not be understood by most so I'll stay shut. I love the project and all, but we have some different priorities and some different points of view given what role we play in this, and it's but normal there are some skirmishes.

    You can hate me for not asking the opinion of you all, I only really talked about part of that stuff with the people that contributed in it, even if not all, because I felt they were the ones with the most rights to voice a complaint. Also, I don't want people that only joined this for Gen 5 stuff blaming me, because really they have no right to.
     
  9. If you are concerned about a Gen 5 simulator prior to USA release creating legal problems (and there is a multitude of evidence that it won't, ranging from the 8+ years of non-interference by Nintendo against established pokemon simulators, to the outright admission by a Nintendo tournament participant that he used pokemon simulators - there is absolutely zero evidence that Nintendo would reverse its policy towards simulators, which is to leave them alone as they only emulate competitive battling, not core gameplay), then don't fucking release one. Keep it under wraps until USA release. Just say you're working on it. Only let testers play on it. Whatever. Don't string along the community who is hungry to play a gen 5 release with opening a gen 5 server for one day or one week.

    Hell, why make a simulator to begin with? Simulators are kind of a legal grey area; if you're so scared shitless about legal action that wasn't even threatened, let alone actualized, then why bother?

    What this tells me is that you don't really give a shit about the community (wait, never mind, you pretty much SAID you don't give a shit about the community) and just went ahead on it.

    As for the legal side, why does the number of players matter (never mind that 500 for Shoddy is a gross understatement - peak Smogon server numbers were often well over 500, and that doesn't take into account people who play at different times, etc - i'd say at its peak there were thousands of regular or semi-regular Shoddy players)? Do you really fucking think GF doesn't know simulators exist? Are you that naive? And as for the game mechanics pre-release, that was because we didn't KNOW them pre-release. The level of support in terms of translation patches, access to Japanese imports/roms, etc is light-years beyond what we had in 2007, let alone 2004.

    It's been what 3 weeks since Japanese release? We've already fleshed out a large portion of the analyses. 3 weeks in. That argument does not fly at all.

    I don't know what your motives are - they seem nonsensical - but I'm pretty sure I don't trust you or your "arguments" about how this is a good thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2010
  10. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    Of course, I meant 500 being online at one time on a server - which would make several thounsands players.

    Not really. Netbattle was abandoned and shoddy didn't exist.

    And I know Nintendo knew about Shoddy and Netbattle. That was even reported by some people on the insiders forum (Nintendo forums that since are closed), and the admin there said to stop reporting such things, because there was no need to.

    So what? It's all theorymoning. Without clear tiers defined, you can't expect them to stay valid over time.

    Do you want me to debate on the reasons that lead me to create PO? I would love to talk about past and nostalgia but not on such a thread. And for fucks sake read again my post about "being scared shitless about legal threats". Why is it the only goddamn reason that comes to your mind? Why do you love pokemon so much and care only about your competitive needs?

    When was this something else than testing? I didn't advertise it on any other forum / website. Specifically asked some websites to please not post links to the alpha, which they complied with. When I released the first private alpha among the staff and a few others, it got leaked within a day. You can call me naive for not preventing the surge of players from coming in, but honestly, this is the internet.

    And yeah. Read my post again. And again. You only think of the welfare of competitive battling and how fast we can reach a good metagame. That's not the ONLY thing. And a few months aren't a such a diabolic thing, you can do other stuff during those months if you're not happy.
     
  11. Sabeta

    Sabeta New Member

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    Since releasing Gen-5 obviously isn't going to happen again, people should just drop it.

    I am; however, going to suggest you completely abandon any of your silly Gen-1 ideas. Gen-1 was the WORST metagame (if you can even call it that.) Psychic was the single best type in the game, and the one potential contender was weak to it. That metagame was so broke, it's not even funny. I would not mind, overly, if you made Gen-2. Just stay away from Gen-1. Nobody is going to like it. I would elaborate more, but I have priorities elsewhere atm, so maybe another time.
     
  12. Anonji

    Anonji New Member

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    i guess your motives are understandable, but it still does feel like a tease. you already did all of the work, it'd be cool if you leaked out the server alpha rather than hiding it. you wouldn't have to bring it to beta officially or support it, but you could disable the "Public" option so it wouldn't be in the registry. they'd still be privated, and alpha testing could continue, which would probably make everyone happy: you wouldn't be doing anything immoral, smaller servers would get more recognition (beta: 200 players, TR: 50, Nuzlocke: 20, everything else: 1 to 4), the community would be able to play gen 5 and test, and the final release would overall be better due to extended alpha testing.

    i just think that'd be a better compromise, because i don't think that a lot of people are going to take gen 1 + 2 over 5. and not to sound like a bitch, but i don't think i am either. i will admit that PO is probably the most well-programmed and well designed pokemon simulator, but i really don't have a desire to play if the metagame is outdated. besides, it'd completely make up for the logic bomb lie, which was pretty much a failure anyway; (as far as i know, i don't think anyone else had a server aside from me, so as far as i'm concerned, you made it up to scare me into deleting my server, which i assumed and never deleted it anyway; if anyone else got a hold of it, i stand corrected) additionally, the community worked hard on the testing, why make them wait 6 months to give them what they deserve? they did all of the testing so PO would be just that much closer to gen 5 fruition. i know you guys don't care about how many people use your program, but if you want to talk morals, i think keeping a project out of the hands of a community who made it what it is and giving everyone a malware scare just to show respect for game-freak (who doesn't even care about the simulator in the first place or what you do with their released mechanics) is more morally off. it's as if you're saying your allegiance to gamefreak (who, again, doesn't care) has moral priority over your community, who tested an otherwise broken system. at least give the community the fruits of their own work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  13. So what was your point? Why do the numbers even matter? Until you give clear reasons why they matter, why shouldn't people make assumptions?

    Obviously, but it shows how far ahead we're ahead of even the 2007 curve in developing the metagame.

    Okay, tell us something that isn't vague generalities and obvious bullshit? What fucking doubts? What fucking issues? How do they differ from those inherent in gen 4?

    Yet you made it public on your own forum. If you really wanted to control the surge of players, you would have kept it in a PRIVATE forum, released it to select testers, and put a password on the server. Stop pretending you were serious about limiting the flow of users. You were not.

    Yeah, because making some vague, rambling post that doesn't actually say anything is REALLY going to make me give a shit about why something that clearly harms the welfare of competitive battling is good. Not to mention lying about logic bombs and crap. Yeah, after that shit we should just trust you?

    Look, you did a great job with the simulator and the GUI and all that. But the userbase has to be able to trust the developers. Instead of engendering that trust, you took a shit on the users. So why should we use your simulator over PokeLab?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2010
  14. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    My opinion on this. The fact that it not only a "better be safe than sorry" decision but the fact that I also respect the developers of Pokemon and the fact that the release date is delayed so much in the US, the fact that serebii and pokebeach got warned because they posted screenshots ahead of time, the fact that some other party releases something close to the game you put work into creating before even you do, and even with simple common sense it's understandable that they'd not like it.

    The reason I created this is because of my love for netbattle of the old. I also like what PO's become, but it would take a single mail from nintendo - even without a lawsuit - for me to take drastic measures.

    And as I said, this is all speculations. I don't know what the developers of Pokemon actually think. That's my own decision, my own principles, etc. It's not all about law threats.

    The first alpha was like that, private, leaked, logic bombed. Then for the beta we tried to think about a good way to gather some testers but the server was still having only 1/2 battles at the same time, so I made the beta public. Tell me what kind of private forum I could have put it on?

    If you prefer PokeLab, then... go there?

    Anyway, enough of this. All relevant info can be found in the OP and the long post I made.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  15. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

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    No.

    Ultimario posted the links of both the server and client binaries on 4chan. DN told me about your server and he told me you were cool to have it private and test it with a few friends so I didn't have any real problem with your server. This story never had anything to do with your server.
     
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