[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Yanma

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LC' started by Weavile, Jul 13, 2013.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So since we dropped something and it's not irrefutably mediocre (Carvanha) we need a suspect. This one is for Yanma.
    Suspect rules apply, try to find checks and counters to Yanma, discuss its impact on the metagame and whether or not you think it should be in LC etc. You guys know the drill.
     
  2. Syan

    Syan New Member

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    IMHO, yanma is right in the middle. He surpasses the benchmark "great LC pokemon but can still be easily handled" by a longshot, but is not quite at the "this thing is wrecked" benchmark. The thing that i think really makes him very difficult to handle is his 20 speed. Correct me if im wrong, but no other pokemon in the 20 speed tier has access to a sleep move, or has as high an attacking stat as yanma. However if we were to do something small like ban a speed boosting nature on yanma or something, he would have a good special attack for his speed tier, and wouldn't be the only one with a sleep move. Also it would create a little more diversity as voltorb and elekid who would now have the speed creep on yanma would get more usage. I think this is a very good solution to this whole yanma madness.
     
  3. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    With access to Hypnosis and Compoundeyes, its pretty much just a spamfest of hypnosis. With base 95 speed, Yanma is the fastest pokemon in the tier (not counting scarfers) and has only 2 reliable checks! Munchlax and Pory are supposedly checks, but Pory is shut down after hypnosis and takes 30-40% from air slash. I say we either ban yanma for good, or do Syans suggestion of banning speed boost nature. but if we do syan's idea he will no longer have his speed and we will finaly have offensive counters to yanma and more diversity.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  4. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I will correct you, Elekid has the same SpAtk as Yanma and a usable attack stat too. Banning a nature for a Pokémon is not happening. That's just bad.

    So in my experience Yanma has been good as any offensive Pokémon with a ~75 acc sleep move in other tiers, like Venusaur in OU or Lilligant in LU, i.e. it's good but not broken at all. It struggles to OHKO a whole mess of Pokémon that can destroy it back and it's even revenged by Scarfers like Magnemite with ease (unlike Venusaur or Lilligant!!) it also has a crippling SR weakness that shortens its lifespan pretty hard. Yes you can spin and use Natu but preventing rocks in every game is never a guarantee (especially with a good and present spinblocker like Missy around and Natu being weak to Rock moves that Pokémon like Dwebble, Turtle and Drilbur can fire off pretty effectively.

    Special Defensive Munchlax with Sleep Talk is by far the most solid counter to Yanma, barring the 10% SpDef drop it can wall it all day and fire off moves like Fire Punch and Body Slam to threaten it. 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat lvl 5 Munchlax (Neutral): 27% - 30% (9 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    Chinchou finds itself in a very similar boat but with a bit less bulk behind it and a Super Effective STAB move to hit 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Volt Absorb lvl 5 Chinchou (+SpDef): 33% - 48% (9 - 13 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Yanma finds itself donked by a number of Scarfers as I mentioned before, Magnemite, Archen, Chinchou, Larvesta, Snover, Frillish (which also does a good job of walling it if it's a defensive set.) etc. Its bulk is somewhat respectable but its typing and SR weakness makes it much easier to kill off due to its many weaknesses and few resistances (perhaps the most notable are Fighting and Ground). However its bulk is somewhat undermined if it runs a Life Orb, and if it fails to do so then it loses a decent amount of its punch 252SpAtk lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Volt Absorb lvl 5 Chinchou (+SpDef): 25% - 37% (7 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

    and I put them in the other thread so here's a bunch more calcs.
    [secret] - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 156HP/252SpDef Eviolite Thick Fat lvl 5 Munchlax (Neutral): 28% - 31% (9 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 116HP/76SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Natu (Neutral): 45% - 68% (10 - 15 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 40% chance to 2HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Air Slash vs 4HP/0SpDef Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral): 40% - 45% (9 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 76HP/228SpDef Eviolite Volt Absorb lvl 5 Chinchou (+SpDef): 36% - 52% (9 - 13 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 5% chance to 2HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ground) vs 76HP/228SpDef Eviolite Volt Absorb lvl 5 Chinchou (+SpDef): 40% - 48% (10 - 12 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Air Slash vs 76HP/236SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Timburr (+SpDef): 72% - 80% (18 - 20 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 84HP/76SpDef Eviolite Solid Rock lvl 5 Tirtouga (+SpDef): 43% - 65% (10 - 15 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 35% chance to 2HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 236HP/76SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Porygon (Neutral): 34% - 50% (9 - 13 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 164HP/148SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Ferroseed (+SpDef): 39% - 43% (9 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Air Slash vs 236HP/76SpDef Eviolite Water Absorb lvl 5 Frillish (Neutral): 36% - 40% (9 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 220HP/152SpDef Eviolite Levitate lvl 5 Bronzor (Neutral): 36% - 40% (9 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ground) vs 0HP/0SpDef Eviolite Flash Fire lvl 5 Ponyta (Neutral): 57% - 85% (12 - 18 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    - 252SpAtk lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 0HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 43% - 56% (10 - 13 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 18% chance to 2HKO.
    - 0SpAtk lvl 5 Chinchou (Neutral) Scald vs 0HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 30% - 39% (7 - 9 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    - 252Atk lvl 5 Pawniard (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 0HP/0Def Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 43% - 56% (10 - 13 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 18% chance to 2HKO.
    - 196Atk Guts lvl 5 Timburr (Neutral) doubled Payback vs 0HP/0Def Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 34% - 43% (8 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    - 252SpAtk lvl 5 Abra (Neutral) Psychic vs 0HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 56% - 69% (13 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    - 200SpAtk lvl 5 Staryu (Neutral) Scald vs 0HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 39% - 52% (9 - 12 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO.
    - 80Atk lvl 5 Munchlax (Neutral) Body Slam vs 0HP/0Def Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 39% - 52% (9 - 12 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 6% chance to 2HKO.
    - 80Atk lvl 5 Munchlax (Neutral) Frustration vs 0HP/0Def Eviolite lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 52% - 65% (12 - 15 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.[/secret]
     
  5. Syan

    Syan New Member

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    the first part of your post is just straight wrong, elekid maxes at 17 spec attk, while yanma maxes at 18, so don't even TRY with that argument. Also, in my entire lc career i have never seen a chinchou with max hp/spedef, because it's lack of defense bulk if running that is quite sad. Also, many of the scarfed pokemon u said "donk" it are ohko'd by yanma, so cannot switch in, and yanma can simply sub when it puts a pokemon to sleep and they will no longer be able to stop him. Also banning a nature for a pokemon is obviously no-where near bad, as it will now have reliable offensive counters (elekid and voltorb) which will then see much more usage. Also, only a mere 15 minutes after posting Pokemon United agreed with me, so it's obviously not "just bad". Here are some calcs of how well voltorb, a extremely rarely seen pokemon, will counter yanma if he is forced down to 19 speed causing voltorb to no longer fear a speed tie hypnosis.
    252SpAtk lvl 5 Voltorb (Neutral) Thunderbolt vs 0HP/0SpDef lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 130% - 156% (30 - 36 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    252SpAtk lvl 5 Voltorb (Neutral) Volt Switch vs 0HP/0SpDef lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral): 86% - 113% (20 - 26 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 50% chance to OHKO.
    252SpAtk lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Air Slash vs 36HP/0SpDef Eviolite Soundproof lvl 5 Voltorb (Neutral): 14% - 23% (3 - 5 HP). Guaranteed 7HKO.
    252SpAtk lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 36HP/0SpDef Eviolite Soundproof lvl 5 Voltorb (Neutral): 0% - 0% (0 - 0 HP).
    252SpAtk lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Hidden Power (Ground) vs 36HP/0SpDef Eviolite Soundproof lvl 5 Voltorb (Neutral): 47% - 66% (10 - 14 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 38% chance to 2HKO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2013
  6. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Natures aren't getting banned, end of that discussion. Feel free to keep talking about Yanmega.
     
  7. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Can we stop with the diversity talk, the way lc is set up you can't achieve it. Voltorb sucks and elekid is mediocre at best.
    Syans right about the chinchou set though, max hp and sp def is bad.

    Ok so my thing with yanma is that you need two more checks/counters. One of them has to be sleep fodder and the has to be able to switch in. All of those scarfers are fine except frillish, but you cannot switch into yanma, btw just like yanma loses to SR so do the scarfers you mentioned. You can only revenge kill which is not a reliable to beat yanma. SR can stop yanma, but with the lack of viable ghost they can be kept away.

    About all those calcs that you posted (Weavile), most of the time you have to run two of those pokemon. One of them will be put a sleep and the other will have to constantly switch into yanma. Pawniard can't take more than three hits, abra has to revenge and even then it can't ohko it, (another thing is that it outspeeds abra bringing it down to its sash), Timburr gets 2hko'd by Air Slash, Ferroseed can't touch Yanma unless you run gyo ball which isn't as good as Bullet Seed, Chinchou scarf cant counter it or check it, all it can do is revenge kill (Rest Talk chinchou is just sleep fodder, and it takes about 30% from bug buzz and can be forced out easily), Frillish, ill give you that one along with Munchy and Magnemite to an extent (still takes a good chunk if scarfed). Other than that all those pokes are pretty unreliable checks.
     
  8. Syan

    Syan New Member

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    This. Don't forget that yanma run hp ground all the time now, my magnemite keeps dying on me!
     
  9. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    I really don't think banning Timid nature (or other speed boosting nature)on Yanma is the answer. Anyway after being smashed by notacop's SubHypnosis Yanma I've running a pretty cool and effective Munchlax set. It focusses on taking a Hypnosis and retaliating back with a Sleep Talk Return / Fire Punch. Since I'm using a more offensive orientated team, thus I don't want to waste a slot on a Sleep absorber. Yes Yanma's Special Attack isn't something to write home about but the fact that it has 20 Speed and Compound Eyes with Hypnosis is what makes it so deadly. I'm not saying Yanma's broken though. It has that crippling x4 weakness to Stealth Rock and its frailty keeps it from being too overpowering. The spike in usage of Yanma-checks doesn't help Yanma either. Yanma isn't overwhelming nor underwhelming, its just good. I'll post some more later...

    Here's the set btw:
    446.png @ Eviolite
    Thick Fat | 236 Atk / 236 SDef
    Adamant | Sleep Talk / Return / Fire Punch / Pursuit

    PS: the set isn't that great but it works for me =)
     
  10. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, one of the sure fire things is Munchlax, the rest of the checks are really unreliable considering yanma will not stay in on any of those checks. You can say your sleep pokemon can constantly switch in and take the damage, but after that Yanma just goes to something that forces out Munchlax like a common fighting type, then the sleep count resets.

    Hazards are not necessary in LC, so really I don't want to be forced to run any of them, and running a sleep fodder and another check can restrict the team building in many teams.
     
  11. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Artemisa is exactly right, a simple switch into timburr, croagunk etc makes Munchlax's sleep count reset. Yanma's speed and access to hypnosis makes it wrecked. I suggest two things.

    1) Ban Hypnosis from Yanma

    2) Ban Yanma for good.
     
  12. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Currently as of what I think of yanma is that it is not broken in the tier right now. The thing you have to remember about it is that it can't carry Life Ord/Eviolite/Hypnosis/Hp Ground/Air Slash/Bug Buzz/Giga Drain/Roost/Substitute/Protect(Actually a great move choice) . It can find it's way past a lot of pokemon with the correct prediction and movepool but there are defiantly ways to beat yanma in this tier. I've seen people start to use scarf anorith and similar stuff to beat it, instead of using bog standard teams with no scarfer or priority apart from timburr.


    Not happening, it's either getting banned or not banned.

    Misdreavus?
    LC has a bunch of good SR setters. Don't complain about something with a 4 * weakness to SR if your not going to run one.
     
  13. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    A lack of viable ghosts when the most used Pokémon in the metagame is a ghost and is /very/ good. Hmmk

    Drilbur, Dwebble, Ferroseed, Diglett, Bronzor, Pawniard, Archen, Lileep, Tirtouga, Anorith etc, they're all viable and they all set up rocks. Also running multiple checks for a Pokémon is natural in most tiers, Lilligant forces you to run something for the event it runs HP Rock and something for the event it runs HP Fire. Its checks change depending on what moves it has and it cannot run all of its viable moves in one set, it has Quiver Dance as well so scarfers don't even come into its check list. Scarfers are a valuable asset to most teams anyway, Scarf Chinchou is especially strong if played well. Also yes Chinchou is rarely seen with max SpDef.

    But 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 156HP/228SpDef Eviolite Volt Absorb lvl 5 Chinchou (+SpDef): 34% - 50% (9 - 13 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    252SpAtk lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Bug Buzz vs 156HP/228SpDef Eviolite Volt Absorb lvl 5 Chinchou (+SpDef): 26% - 38% (7 - 10 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
    That's the most common Chinchou spread on the ladder right now by a good 12%. Very similar results.

    Also Yanma is donked by specially defensive Frillish p well. 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (Neutral) Air Slash vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite Water Absorb lvl 5 Frillish (+SpDef): 28% - 36% (7 - 9 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
     
  14. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    What good SR setters? Bronzor, Dwebble, Ferroseed, Lileep, and maybe Drilbur are the best ones. 4 have no reliable recovery at all so they can be worn down by status, Lileep loses to toxic and fighting types, Drilbur is frail compared to the other SR setters bar Dwebble, and Dwebble is a suicide hazard setter.

    Misdreavus place to fast pace and doesn't have the recovery Frillish does so it dies faster. Before it wasn't a requirement to run SR, because it wasn't that game changing unless you have a playstyle of HO. I guess now we are forced to run SR to stop Yanma? I'm pretty sure there is a good amount of teams that almost never have ran hazards even when Murkrow was in the meta.

    Edit:

    Most of those Hazard Setters are shit. Anorith loses to staryu, Tirtouga loses to staryu and maybe Drilbur and has better things to do then set up SR, why the hell is pawniard even an option, Diglett is only good for one try, once the hazards have been spinned you can't get them back, as much as I like Archen it loses to staryu and it cannot touch Drilbur + SR weakness ruins it a lot. Just because they have the move SR does not make them good or viable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  15. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Just because they somewhat resist Yanma it doesn't mean Yanma is not broken. Anyway, the real problem is Yanma ability and access to Hypnosis. What can Frillish do when it's asleep, Chinchou carries sleeptalk. However, that makes Yanma's list of checks at 2
     
  16. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    What can the checks for any Pokémon that carries a sleep move in any tier ever do while they're asleep? Does that mean anything with offensive presence that carries a reasonably speedy sleep move is broken because it can remove one Pokémon from action for a few turns (about 78% of the time in this case, 75 in most). No it doesn't because the nature of a Pokémon that carries a sleep move is that you either bait it with something OR kick it back in their face with Vital Spirit, Insomnia OR Magic Bounce (That's a fun idea isn't it). If Yanma runs Sub Hypnosis it either lacks Air Slash or its coverage move or Roost. If it lacks Roost then it's easily worn out, its subs will chip it down and if it has Life Orb to pose a decent offensive threat that will too. If Rocks are off then that is also something to think about with that set. Switch into Rocks + Sub = 75% dead, +LO = 85%, if it has Roost then it uses a turn for that and doesn't attack from behind its sub and also only carries Bug Buzz which is silly. If Yanma could have 6 moves it'd be pretty broken, but as it happens, it can't so it has variable checks and counters.
     
  17. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    sub yanma has oran berry. js. and while i don't think yanma is that op id have to say its much better than some things we have in ubers. such as mienfoo, mukrow, maybe even scraggy and double rush. but if yanma is allowed i see no reason not to allow mienfoo and mukrow. but then again its nbd
     
  18. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Since LC is so fast pace sleep really hurts a team. Most of the the time you look at what you want give up because you know it will probably be useless unless you have a heal beller. As I told Finch in pm, sleep talkers are not that good in this meta due to the nature of LC, taking 30% or more damage on neutral moves is really bad and will get you ko'd in a few turns.

    Btw you want us to run a sleep fodder, a check, and an sr setter. 3/6 pokes decided for one pokemon is to much, even if it doesn't hit hard. That limits our team building and that's why Yanma is a big deal.

    Not a Cop is right, too. The same you said about sub roost and LO yanma can be said about Murkrow (Even if Murkrow hits hard you should have a flying resist then wear ir down). Scraggy ban was really stupid, and double rush has typing issues. Yanma causes more centralization than mienfoo considering you need like half a team. Since you banned Mienfoo for that, why not Yanma?
     
  19. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    That is horseshit. SR setters are used for so many other things in LC, not just Yanma. Saying that you suddenly have to run it just for one Pokemon is one of the stupidest things I've seen here. Sleep fodder doesn't work like that either way, and you can simply use one of the 2-3 RestTalk things that beat Yanma if you are so desperate to check it in one Pokemon. Munchlax absolutely shuts Yanma down barring multiple hax occurrences. And before you say that they'll just switch to a Fighting-type, simply forcing Yanma to switch out makes it lose another 50% of its health. Its dead if it uses LO and if it uses Eviolite or Oran Berry, it only has one more chance. Either way, Munchlax can either phaze the incoming Fighting-type (making it take a little bit extra chip damage) or Body Slam it for ~20%.


    If you want to go bitch about how everything wasn't broken, take it back to the other thread and get some better reasoning than the fact that you don't like it.

    Yanma is completely different than Mienfoo in so many ways that comparing their effects on the tier is impossible. Yanma doesn't have 50-70 usage. Yanma doesn't give you instant momentum with almost no drawbacks. Yanma actually requires support to be good and can't endlessly switch in and out of battle for free damage whenever it wants.

    If people would actually try to adapt to the new threat instead of bitching that they don't want to run one of the ~3 counters, ~7 checks, or ~7 revenge killers to Yanma, there wouldn't even be a discussion about it. I've had absolutely no problem with Yanma in LC, and I am certain that it isn't broken.
     
  20. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    What can they be used for? Bronzor is comeplete shit and is set up fodder, Ferroseed has horrible weaknesses and no reliable recovery, Lileep gets shut down by Fighting types and once it's toxic'd it's dead. The rest of the setters like Pawniard and Tirt shoudn't even think about setting SR. You tell me what "other uses" those pokemon play other than die and set up SR. Btw the only support it needs is a spinner, Missy dies to like 2 or three hydro pumps from staryu, and can't recover any hp, Frillish can just be worn down by knocking it off with gunk o something.

    LC teams use to be viable without needing to run any hasards at all. Now to take it down hazards are mandatory, or else you get run down by Yanma, that's bs.

    Munchlax has no other role at all, but to shut down Yanma. Fire Punch and Body Slam? You get walled by rock types and don't hit ghost types that strong meaning stuff like Missy can set up Nasty Plot all over you. It's just a sitting duck, that's only reliable way to get full health is rest. Another factor is that you won't even get the move you want leaving you as possible set up fodder. Example you are asleep and a clamperl is out, 1/3 of a chance of hitting body slam, 2/3 hitting fire punch or rest, you get the 2/3, gg.

    Yeah Mienfoo is different from Yanma. You don't to build a team to specifically check or counter Mienfoo at all, and the only reason it was banned because it killed creativity. We don't have any drops from other tiers, that means we are stuck with the same shit until gen 6. If you want to bitch about creativity and try to ban something thinking it will fix you are really stupid. If you do it another time smh. If you are using 50% or 70 as usage as why it should be banned, it's not pokemons fault it's the playerbase dor constantly being used. It should reach about 20+ and above.

    Yanma however, fucks up your team building (Mienfoo doesn't fuck it up) seeing as you HAVE to run a sleep fodder and another check to stop it. Making it hard to to cover the rest of the meta. Yeah you have to adapt to new things, but if causes a lot of change like constantly having to run sleep fodder, another check because that sleep fodder won't last that long and WILL be useless the rest of the match, and forces to run hazards from pokemon that are shit even though SR is a luxury, not a necessity I really don't want to adapt.

    The reason those pokemon got banned had shit logic. All this time just going pleasing the playerbase and look at where we are, but I guess that's better than my reasoning. It's July, Gen 6 comes out in November iirc and we still haven't found a balance meta (not a tier meaning overcentralization should not play a factor whether a meta is broken). That's why I'm bitching.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  21. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Personally I don't have an issue with Yanma. Its Hypnosis is an issue, but it has enough checks and that X4 SR weakness to keep it in check.
     
  22. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    The only sure fire things are sleep talkers. Anything else just gets put to sleep and is pretty much useless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  23. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    What pokemon carry vital spirit or insomnia?

    Mankey? Drowzee? Mankey gets destroyed on switch by air slash, and if its not scarfed it can't do shit. Drowzee? Lol. Magic bounce is carried by ONE pokemon in the meta, natu is a decent mon, but by your logic you would want every team to carry natu. And I haven't seen many sub yanma sets on the ladder.

    Also, you say sr setters play a bigger role in lc? Well, not really, they're mostly there to set up and die. Drillbur is the only exception, only because it carries rapid spin. And its risen in usage because it carries rapid spin (most likely for yanma) and is a decent mon. The meta was fine before Yanma and berry juice (horrible idea). All this unbanning is stupid and uncalled for.
     
  24. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    xdevo can you relax with the blatant flaming? also lc is the one tier where stealth rock isn't absolutely necessary. ill agree lacking it now becomes a major issue.
     
  25. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Another thing,

    A stale meta doesn't mean broken, and unbanning stuff just try to spice things up just makes things worse. After this discussion is over, please stop unbanning that YOU think will make the meta diverse. You will only make the meta even worse than what it is now. I hope you learned that after banning sand and the rest.

    Btw Devo please stop flaming, I am not talking to you like Lisalo has. I actually do know what a balanced meta looks like, considering I have played the meta for awhile, too (Not just 5th gen). I'm not mediocre player and was never in a "LC clique".

    On to Yanma all it really needs is Hypnosis / Bug Buzz / Air Slash. The 4th move will cause a shitload of problems, to teams and can make the difference whether you beat Yanma or get run down. I have no problem running multiple checks, but forced to run a SPECIFIC pokemon in this case Munchlax being the most popular is a pain in the ass seeing as i does nothing else for the team. If you choose not to run a sleep talker, your check will be put to sleep before you know it and your answer to Yanma is now useless. Stuff like scarf anorith is really bad and is an example of the shit it's causing. It might be creative and it is adapting to the meta, but I guarantee anorith has no other role at all and can't revenge as much as other better scarfers. Atleast scarf magnemite resist it's stabs.
     
  26. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    How the fuck was that flaming? All I said was that its horseshit that 'forcing' you to run what is essentially the best move in the game makes something broken. If you chose to not run it, then you are making the decision to give Yanma a bunch of switches.

    Just because they don't beat certain things doesn't make them bad. There aren't supposed to be any "perfect" pokemon in any tier. They all should have something that beats them. If you don't like that they lose to certain things, use Pokemon to beat them. Its how every other metagame has ever worked.

    Also, the fact that you think that things like Munchlax do nothing else for a team is really just showing how biased you are being against the pretty large amount of checks / counters / revenge killers that yanma has.
     
  27. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    You haven't even given us a check except munchlax!

    When was the last time you were even on the ladder? I've never seen you and I'm always laddering. If you were on the ladder, you would know how destructive Yanma can be. If you don't think Yanma is affecting the metagame that much, you're dead wrong. Last month Munchlax say at about 6% usage, this month? 14%. It jumped from 24th place to 12th. You know what it's main set is compared to last month? Last month Stockpile munchlax was used in about 30% of matches, while it's sleep talk set was used at 9%. This month? That 9% has risen to 50 fucking percent!
     
  28. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    The best move? rofl thinking SR is the best move is horse shit.

    If anything the best move is knock due to the amount of pokemon in the metagame running eviolite. SR doesn't affect almost anything other than yanma since it was recently unbanned and a few other pokemon everything else either takes it neutral or resist SR. Most teams don't want a dead steel type that can't recover at all and doesn't hit hard at all. The closest to a balance setter is Drilbur, everything else is pretty much shit. I almost never ran hazards in all my teams because a balance team can beat any pokemon in the meta without the help of hazards. Sure it makes some jobs easier, but still a balanced team still should have no problem with it. Now balance teams are force to run shit like Bronzor and other setters that still lose to the only two viable spinners that can overcome their spinblockers.

    Rest Talk Munchlax doesn't do shit at all. All it was ever good for was for stopping Sun when Vulpix was allowed and even then it was mediocre check, before Yanma ever existed in this meta, running Munchlax was a bad idea because of the lack of Physical bulk it has and the lack of coverage it has.That's why it had shit usage before this. It doesn't have to be perfect, but Munchlax is mediocre at best. It's not a biased opinion at all, I've used Munch and I'm currently using him to check sun, so my post on Munch was based on experience.

    It has checks, but you have to have multiple of them in a team. If you don't run a sleep talker you're pretty much fucked, by a new buffed out Hypnosis. That's why it's a big deal idgaf if it doesn't hard, neither did Mienfoo and it was classified as broken. What it does is FORCES you to run a SR, something that is NOT needed from a shit pokemon that has no reliable recovery or are shut down by fighting types, and a sleep talker in every team. If you don't run sleep talk you need two checks and even then that 4th move still has a chance to fuck up the so called checks it has.

    ArteEdit: He does ladder. His alt is Rare Poison.
     
  29. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    This clearly shows that you aren't even reading opposing posts. Weavile has mentioned at least 7. Magnemite, Frillish, Tirtuga, Defensive Archeops, Soundproof Voltorb are all semi-reasonable checks; there are a lot more revenge killers And before you midlessly scream "THEY BE PUT TO SLEEP NOT CHECK BAN", look at the definition of what a check is. There are also two solid counters in Chinchou and Munchlax, who only lose with hax or poor play. If you happen to not be using LO Yanma, the check pool is much, much larger.

    I don't like to ladder on my main because I get harassed by all of the assholes who are still salty about the fact that didn't get what they wanted almost a year ago. I own the alts Rare Poison and BoSs TyCoOn, which are both in the top 20 (they both peaked in the top 10). Now, if you'll stop acting like you are suddenly my own personal stalker, that would be really cool.


    So, a really good pokemon that happens to counter one of the new drops, and that just lost one of the biggest things keeping it down (Mienfoo), suddenly rose in usage. That doesn't scream broken at all. The metagame changing because of something doesn't make it broken at all.
     
  30. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    That's exactly my point. I'm saying Yanma should be banned because of it's ability to hit all of it's checks with an accurate hypnosis. 2 of them can run a decent sleep talk set. Frillish is weak and really can't do much, Scarf Magnemite is OHKO'd by HP Ground Yanma sets and 2hko'd by LO bug buzz. Voltorb?? Lol, what other role would Voltorb have except being a Yanma check?


    I wasn't really saying Yanma is broken because Munchlax has risen. I said, look how his sleep talk set has risen since Yanma was unbanned.
     
  31. Yagura

    Yagura

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    This stupid dragonfly is an incredibly fast Pokemon, it outspeeds every non scarfed Pokemon in this metagame. With Compoundeyes it gets a boost on Hypnosis make it more accurate than Sleep Powder but it always hits my Pokemon. Setting with Sub after putting the foe to sleep is a tactic that makes it more dangerous. Yanma also has decent SAtk compared to other Pokemons. I never used Yanma but I battled against a lot of people who used it, I usually OHKO it with scarf Chinchou but if you don't brace yourself for it as a lead, you'll be completely screwed: that's what happened to me 3 times, Hypnosis was as accurate as Spore and it swept my whole team with Sub/Oran set. In my opinion, BAN BAN BAN BAN!!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  32. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Munchlax didn't rise because of Mienfoo being gone. There are still three viable fighting types in the tier that even now still give it a hard time. The only it's used is to counter Yanma nothing else.

    Using stuff like Voltorb to check a pokemon is so sad. I can use a Wooper to hit the berry juice shell smashers nbd. Croagunk can do a number on the smashers too. If you to use stuff like Voltorb in your argument just to say it's not broken...wow. Revenge killing as way to beat it is completely stupid, considering everything can be revenged killed. Missy can revenge kill meditite, ScarfKrow can revenge Scraggy, Psyduck can revenge Drilbur. The only way you revenge kill is by fodder.

    Magnemite, frillish, and Archen are all fine pokemon (except for voltorb), but if they get put to sleep what happens then?
     
  33. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Anecdotes about how you lost to a Pokémon and saying that 78 = 100 don't mean anything in a suspect. Just saying.

    Anyhow. Vullaby, Porygon, Frillish, Magnemite, Archen, Munchlax, Chinchou, Misdreavus, Ferroseed (Iron Head isn't bad), Bronzor, SpDef Mantyke (or Rain Dance since it can just take a hit and set up), Turtle and of course Stealth Rocks. I would use any one of those Pokémon (or that move!) in a serious team, they all pose a threat to Yanma unless it runs a weird HP for them (except Magnemite since HP Ground is good), yeah Voltorb is pretty shit, but the fact that it was mentioned doesn't invalidate every other check it has. Suddenly arguing that SR is bad and useless for /anything/ but weakening Yanma is foolish. It hits stuff like Larvesta, Snover, Dwebble and Ponyta pretty well too, also it's SR, it's free damage on anything that doesn't have Magic Guard, arguing that one of the top 3 moves in the game on most people's lists is useless has no base. Sure it's better in OU than it is in LC, but that does not even come close to saying it's bad in LC, especially since a Pokémon on 70% of teams isn't farming free switches off Regenerator anymore.

    Also arguing the SR setters have checks and counters and therefore suck is... well I don't even know how you come to that conclusion too used to shit like Mienfoo? Idk.

    "They get put to sleep, what happens then"
    You switch in one of the 20+ Pokémon Yanma doesn't 2KO without LO and beat it the way you beat any offensive threat.
     
  34. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I never said SR was bad at all or useless. All I said that it is not madatory and you shouldn't be forced to run it on every team you make since it's not needed considering many things aren't that much affected by SR. The things you mentioned + a few more are affected, but SR is really not needed to beat any of those. If anything I called most SR setters complete shit. I also said how most of them LACK reliable recovery and how most lose to the spinners. I only talked about Lileep having fighting type problems and how it gets shut down hardcore to toxic.

    SideNote: Iirc Yanma also gets Giga Drain and U-turn, those can be good 4th move options aswell. Giga Saps hp from Chinchou, Frllish and Turtle, while the other creates momentum and an ability to wear down your check.

    Sure it can't run everything, but it really needs the three main moves. The 4th move has the possibility fucking up your whatever combination of checks you have.

    Ferroseed can't switch in 3 or 4 times, Missy has no reliable recovery so pretty much in the same place as Ferro, Mantyke can be worn down since the only recovery is rest, Bronzor is pure set up fodder and really has no other use than to set up SR and die, chinchou takes a good amount from bug buzz and can hurt it even more with HP Ground or Giga Drain, lastly assuming the most used magnemite is scarf, it takes 36% min from Bug Buzz which is a lot considering it's resisted. The rest move-wise aren't affected, but it still has an option to sleep the things that take a few more hits. Yanma has a lot of ways to overcome it's checks which is why I feel that it is broken, that and the way it affects team building.
     
  35. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    So will there be any progression on this? Like a vote...
     
  36. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    We don't have a large enough base that cares to have a vote, LU suspects get almost twice as many viewers and posters and they don't use votes for that reason, if we imposed a ladder cap we'd get like 10 voters or something, also the discussion has only been open for 5.5 days, standard is meant to be like 2 weeks, might be 10 days or so but, not 5.
     
  37. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I have not played much LC, but Yanma would be broken as hell... It outspeeds everything after 2 turns. o.o And nothing common resists both its stabs.
     
  38. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Speed Boost is banned.


    And I meant since there hasn't been a post in 3 days, we need some form of progression.
     
  39. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Ok I've seen enough of Yanma on the ladder to make up my mind.
    Yanma's speed is probably its biggest benefit. Nothing naturally outspeeds Yanma forcing every team to carry a scarfer.

    It can sleep something, and then you have to switch into Yanma with your scarfer or something that isn't 2HKO'd, and really, there aren't a lot of pokes that aren't. Yanma can even abuse double STAB and do whatever it wants with the fourth move. Giga Drain for Chinchou, HP Fire for Bronzong and Ferroseed, Substitute, Roost,... All of these options work against a certain check of Yanma.

    I have a team with Ferroseed, Scarf Chinchou and Scarf Misdreavus and I still have trouble dealing with Yanma. It can sleep one of the things, Ferroseed can't really do anything, Chinchou is reliably 2HKO'd and can't do anything if Yanma sets up a Substitute and gets nailed by Giga Drain, Misdreavus' Shadow Ball is a 2HKO but so is Air Slash, meaning it can't switch in.

    Stealth Rock is the best way to keep Yanma in check, but still. Little Cup is probably the tier with the best spinners (Drilbur, Staryu) and it also has Natu. While there are a lot of spinblockers they all get 2HKO'd by the spinners. A player with Yanma in his team is not going to let you set up Stealth Rock for free. They'll always have a way to prevent it, and switching in Yanma on the turn Stealth Rock is just a free switch in for Yanma which you really can't afford.
    It's just, you can prepare your team for Yanma, but late-game there aren't really any answers left except if your scarfer is still alive. Yanma's insane speed is really the thing that makes it broken.
     
  40. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Silly Hikari, this is a discussion about Yanma. You shouldn't post in topics when you don't even know the pokemon being discussed.

    Anyway, you should probably just override the 2 weeks rule, ban Yanma and get it over with. This devolved into "it can sleep its checks and it's fast plus spinners can spin away rocks all the time, we need to ban this" about 10 posts ago. It's not even nice to read anymore.

    Also 75% accuracy does not an accurate move make, whoever said that Hypnosis was accurate.
     
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