[WIP] Latios

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Ubers Analyses' started by Msyu, Jul 5, 2013.

  1. Msyu

    Msyu You don't qualify.

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    Be sure to comment or criticize if this analysis lacks something.

    General Information (Completed):

    In a tier where a solid Kyogre check is almost always required in a functional team framework, Latios is frequently overlooked in favour of his sister. Latias is the tier’s premier check to Kyogre with her gargantuan special bulk, coupled with more than decent power and speed. A combination of these factors allow her to fit on literally every team. In comparison, Latios does not have the same liberty of switching into Kyogre repeatedly, though his special bulk still ranks amongst the top in the tier thanks to Soul Dew.

    As troubling as this news may be, there are areas where Latios shines brighter than Latias. The predominately Dragon-type metagame means that Latios soars above the rest by outpacing fellow Non-Choice Scarf dragons with his base hundred and ten speed. Few are more offensively inclined and tailored to deal with such threats; in comparison, the tier’s speedy special sweepers, Darkrai and Mewtwo, must rely on Dark Pulse, Psystrike or Ice Beam - without the super effective STAB bonus, the damage falls dire short of a required OHKO. The aforementioned also lack the sheer wall-breaking power in Draco Meteor brings, and when backed by Latios’ titanic Special Attack, obliterates even unvested Arceus with an OHKO after Stealth Rock damage, provided he is endowed a Modest nature (though, a Timid nature is more than often preferable).

    Enough with the sun shower; this is when the dark thunderclouds of spite approach. Latios is physically frail, accentuated further by his burdensome Psychic-typing that gives way to a myriad of weaknesses. The presence of Scarfed physical sweepers such as Genesect will almost always force him out. While his secondary typing allows use of Psyshock, its pseudo mixed-attacking selling point is reserved for discrete purposes at best in the Ubers tier. Similarly, Latios must rely on weak or situational coverage moves to check regular threats; Hidden Power Fire, Surf, Grass Knot, and Thunder are some of the examples that cause him to suffer immensely from four-moveslot syndrome. This compounds into relying on Draco Meteor for the OHKOes in many occasions. If the opponent’s faster sweepers don’t force Latios out, the minus two recoil to Special Attack sure will. The combination of physical frailty and reliance to Draco Meteor make accurate predictions integral to success, typically affixing him to a hit-and-run method.

    Nevertheless, Latios has many cards, and like the many other Pokémon of the tier, when played right, he can get past his usual checks and counters. If you seek a fast, powerful Dragon-type sweeper that outpaces and OHKOes common offensive threats, while also retaining the ability to wall-break the tier’s defensive threats unabated by choice items, well, you’ve (probably) arrived at the “X” marking the spot.

    In Progress (Point-form notes - completion towards elaborating into full-length paragraphs):

    Standard Attacker:

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Grass Knot / Thunder / Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Psyshock / Surf
    - Roost / Roar / Dragon Pulse
    ______________________________

    The purpose of the Standard Attacker set is to check as much of the tier the moment Latios is in play. Draco Meteor becomes obligatory with its excellent power and coverage, but because the move lowers Latios' Special Attack by two stages, a misfire means Latios is outstalled by the tier's bulky walls with recovery such as Arceus, Ho-Oh, and Lugia. Relying on Draco Meteor as the sole offensive outlet is not always in a player's best interest as well, as the recoil will impede on Latios' ability to check much of the tier until he is switched out. Running other moves suspends Latios' staying power to dish out his ace at the opportune moment. All the while, your opponent will be trying to mitigate the damage Latios does to their team, and you, being his humble guide, will read that and reap destruction.

    One of Latios' defining characteristics is his typing and the Levitate ability, bestowing him the ability to check the tier's distinguished weather inducers, Kyogre and Groudon. Grass Knot is the standard, as it does not require any weather support itselt. It does heavy damage to both - any Kyogre is 2HKOed while Groudon is OHKOed save for the uncommon specially defensive variant. Thunder is another solid option, hitting for an equal amount to Kyogre. Even if the team does not have her own Kyogre, Drizzle itself is a defining part of the metagame and the rain support required to run Thunder on a moveset isn't too bad to work with. The Electric-type has greater neutral coverage against his common checks in the tier, as Grass Knot often hits for pittance against switch-ins Ho-Oh and Lugia. Grass Knot is ineffective against Manaphy due to featherlight weight, but being near weightless doesn't save it from being OHKOed by Thunder. Thunderbolt is another option to utilize the benefits of electricity without a dependance on weather. If a full Latios set lacks Psyshock, Thunderbolt is an acceptable way to 2HKO Ho-Oh while it still bathes in the sun. Be advised however, that forgoing Grass Knot means that Latios' only way past Groudon is by Draco Meteor, immediately forcing him out regardless of whether the move connects with its target. While rain support can allow for options such as Thunder or Surf, Grass Knot has the advantage of freeing a moveset of what may be a cause of redundancy in the fight against weather.

    The third moveslot is designated to checking the remaining threats. A Dragon and Fire-type move together offer perfect coverage, and this makes Hidden Power Fire a valuable option despite its middling seventy base power. It is Latios' primary way of checking a potential Genesect switch-in, as well as the Ferrothorn often ran in conjunction with Kyogre’s rain. Checking Forretress, who can otherwise present problems with resists to Dragon, Psychic, and Grass-type moves is another boon Fire-typing brings. All that comes at a price, however - the IV adjustments mean that Latios will encounter a speed tie or lose to opposing Latios and offensive Latias variants that do not carry Hidden Power Fire themselves. For those who may be bothered by this, Psyshock is a decently powerful alternative that optimizes Latios' speed tier; it hits the opposing Pokemon’s Defense rather than its Special Defense to somewhat combat stall. Although the pseudo mixed-attacking capability sounds attractive at first, there are in reality only a couple noteworthy uses outside of the Calm Mind set - Psyshock reliably OHKOes Tentacruel and 2HKOes Chansey after Stealth Rock. It can also 2HKO Ho-Oh if Surf and Thunder are absent from the set, both of which don't do as well due to being weather dependent. If checking stall isn't on the list, Surf is another weather-based option that damages Steel-types neutrally, bar Ferrothorn. Doing so requires Kyogre's rain support, and Surf outperforms Thunder, 2HKOing Bulky Arceus-Steel and Specially Defensive Jirachi. In addition, Excadrill, who can otherwise be quite troublesome with in rain, becomes much easier to check with Surf. Heatran can no longer wall Latios as well as it does to the many other Dragon-types of the tier.

    Determining the move Latios should run in his fourth slot can be difficult as he has many equally viable options that lead to a frustrating case of four-moveslot syndrome. Any of the previously mentioned options in the other three slots, such as Grass Knot, Psyshock, Surf, and Thunder(bolt) can be used to check a particularly dangerous threat to the team. For recommended standalone options however, Roost lets Latios preserve his usable special bulk at a healthy level to continue checking threats throughout the match. Roar is surprisingly helpful when paired with Draco Meteor, since the move is prone to attracting dangerous sweepers such as ExtremeKiller to use as setup bait on the following turn. Due to Latios' immense coverage, with accurate prediction, Roar can scout favourable matchups while hiking up entry hazard damage to the opposing team. Dragon Pulse is an accurate STABed Dragon-type move that, unlike Draco Meteor, does not lower Latios' Special Attack.

    Though rather situational, Latios has plenty of other moves to employ in the fourth moveslot. Magic Coat makes for a decent anti-lead option versus Deoxys-S and Forretress, likely preventing an additional layer of hazards. Reflecting a predicted Dark Void or Spore is another great plus over Darkrai and Smashpassing Smeargle respectively. Thunder Wave or Toxic are somewhat subpar choices to have because these statuses don't particularly hurt Latios' list of checks and counters, many being Steel-types or not very much fazed by paralysis. Arceus and Lugia are crippled by the latter, but for other checks such as Ho-Oh, it can be a hit or miss, greatly depending on the set it carries. After a Dragon Dance or Tailwind, which isn't too hard to pull off due to Latios' offensive presence, resistances, and special bulk, he can outpace nearly the entire tier including common Choice Scarf users. Dragon Pulse is obligatory with Dragon Dance, as Draco Meteor doesn't bode too well with the Special Attack reduction. Tailwind in combination with Memento can allow the double speed boost to be passed along to a teammate to continue a late-game sweep, though Dragon Dance is more than often superior without the time constraint or need of higher level prediction. While Thunder threatens Lugia and Ho-Oh, the need for Stealth Rock and rain support can prove inflexible in the alloted circumstances. Charge Beam won’t rid the tactical gambit of seventy percent, but it is an option to punish Lugia switch-ins looking to assuage Latios’ Special attacks by breaking Multiscale, passively raising his Special Attack on the same turn, and thereby boosting Draco Meteor on the next. Though Thunder comes very close in power, Hidden Power Rock severely dents unsuspecting Ho-Oh with uncompromising accuracy, coupled with a Modest nature achieves an important OHKO on offensive variants.

    Hidden Power Rock severely dents unsuspecting Ho-Oh, though Thunder comes close, a Modest nature achieves an important OHKO on offensive variants.

    o that Calm Mind may not boast, while the latter severely dents unsuspecting Ho-Oh.


    allows Latios to become a decent anti-lead against prominent hazard setters Deoxys-S and Forretress. It can also reflect Darkrai’s Dark Void, which is otherwise problematic with its greater speed tier. Thunder Wave is a somewhat subpar option because paralysis doesn’t really help against Ho-Oh or Lugia. If you’re looking for something to scout Genesect switch-ins however it could work. In this sense, Toxic can be a superior option depending on your own team’s framework. Dragon Dance and Tailwind aren’t the best otpions because

    Besides recovery, phazing, and



    - [Done - first paragraph] Draco Meteor has excellent power and coverage, but because of recoil, Latios needs to run more moves.
    - [Done - second paragraph] Grass Knot is indiscriminate against weather starters Groudon and Kyogre. Electric-type won't work on Groudon and forces Latios to rely on Draco Meteor for the OHKO, which has obvious problems. Besides weather starters though, Electric-type has better coverage (makes sure that a mispredict doesn't end up doing pittance) and hits notable threats such as Ho-Oh, Lugia.
    - [Done - third paragraph] Hidden Power [Fire] offers that perfect coverage, and a valuable option considering Latios doesn't really have anything else against Genesect, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Psyshock is exclusively for Ho-Oh and Chansey (Needs to be in conjunction with Calm Mind, and better down by the Calm Mind set) but if you really want something against Ho-Oh try Hidden Power [Rock]. Could also go with a "neutral" option here like Surf, but that requires Rain support, so at this point the set would've opted for Thunder as well.
    - Hard to say for the fourth slot. Generally goes with something neutral, offers slightly more coverage, or a less punishable option, but it depends on your other two moves (save Draco Meteor). Neutral options are like Dragon Pulse and Surf. Offering slightly more coverage is Psyshock, but you'll run this anyways if you want 31 Speed IVs instead of 30. Less punishable options on a predicted switch are things like recovery, Calm Mind, Subsitute, and other options. Calm Mind is a standard option in this sub-category, allowing Latios to attain OHKO range for a variety of threats, notably boosting Psyshock for Ho-Oh and Chansey which would otherwise be a rather useless option without adequate hazard support. Recovery is a similar less punishable option that can double as a shaky Kyogre check depending on its item. So can Substitute but I wouldn't recommend it as it puts Latios in range of Shadow Sneak if misprediction occurs.

    - [Done - second paragraph] Rain support from Kyogre allows for options like Thunder or Surf, but can be cause for redundancies like trying to run Grass Knot and Thunder on the same set.
    - Modest over Timid allows for some key OHKOes against Dialga and Kyogre with Draco Meteor and Grass Knot respectively. Also versus Arceus after Stealth Rock damage. I suppose a list of calculations here would be nice to illustrate the difference. But do be noted this is best when the team doesn't have a problem with being outran by Latias, Latios and Palkia.
    - In order to lure threats in (specialization), Latios requires teammates to cover things he can't check.
    - Synergy basically encompasses things that Latios can't check, while he can be tailored to check nearly everything, he can't do it all at once. Fire wielding, physically-based Pokemon like Ho-Oh and Rayquaza (Air Lock) are naturals, but so are Fighting-types like Terrakion or whatever else is your obscure preference. A solid ExtremeKiller/Physical Arceus check is pretty much required if one opts for Draco Meteor to ensure that it doesn't get the chance to set up all over you because a +2 Life Orbed ExtremeSpeed can get the opposing team very far on the offensive teams Latios likes to be on.

    Calm Mind:

    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock / Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Calm Mind
    - Roost or Recover
    ______________________________

    - Draco Meteor is here again. Works the same as the Standard Attacker set with the same powerful wide coverage. However, while this set is more flexible in the entire course of the battle, Dragon Pulse is more consistent with Calm Mind, though, assuming Steel-types are out of the way end-game, boosted monoattacking Psyshock is not a problem seeing as Draco Meteor and boosted Dragon Pulse OHKOes the resistors.
    - Hidden Power [Fire] is for that perfect coverage but is quite underwhelming. Psyshock clinches Calm Mind wars. If someone really wanted to, they could forgo a coverage move for Substitute but it'd really only be an end-game thing. To be fair, Hidden Power [Fire] is too weak and is reserved pretty much only for Genesect while other Steel-types will come in with rain support and have their ways to inflict serious damage on Latios.
    - Calm Mind is nice, especially with Psyshock to 2HKO Chansey. Point here is to come in on a resisted attack like Thunder and Calm Mind, putting new things in OHKO/2HKO range.
    - Recovery is nice, too.

    - Since it can't check as much as the Standard Attacker set, Calm Mind, especially with Draco Meteor is best used on offensive teams that can pressure these checks. This will net results from early to end game from Latios.
    - I'd run Psyshock over Hidden Power [Fire] for that ability to outrun other Latios and Latias.
    - Did I mention the rampant acceleration of special stats? The sheer power of Draco Meteor and this are the reasons of using Latios instead of something like Latias.

    Other options (Pertains only to the Standard Attacker sets as independent options. Errr, nevermind, I'll just integrate this into another paragrpah under that section. I'll only include mostly useless things here.):

    Magic Coat, Roar, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Dragon Dance, Tailwind, and Charge Beam.

    - Magic Coat: Anti-leads are always in high demand!
    - Roar: Surprise! Latios is my phazer.
    - Thunder Wave: Since Genesect and gang (take a look a the Checks and Counters section) love switching in, why not?
    - Toxic: Lugia, Arceus, Giratina-O and anything else that seems like it'd be severely crippled that's in the same list mentioned above.
    - Dragon Dance and Tailwind: Dragon Dance makes for a good late-game sweeper, but Tailwind is transferrable between team members. Latios won't have the same type of power but that's not the point. Readjust Speed EVs.
    - Charge Beam: A nice filler to the Standard Attacker set, its niche is breaking Lugia's Multiscale and likely (63%) obtaining the +1 Special Attack that does miracles.
    - Screens are not really worth mentioning. You're looking at a fully-fledged Uber reduced to the likes of Gardevoir.

    Checks and Counters:

    - Every set has different counters. General counters are Tyranitar, Chansey, Blissey, Multiscale Lugia.
    - Weather permitting counters include Heatran, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar.
    - General checks are physical Arceus variants (especially Normal, Ghost and Steel), Genesect, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, and just about any Arceus forme (that outruns) can survive Draco Meteor and retaliate with a move or simply by outstalling. So can the special variants that Latios is weak to, especially Dread Arceus.
    - Revenging Latios is easy especially given how common Choice Scarf dragons are.
    - Priority in general (all happen to be physical).
    - Weather permitting (Rain and Sand) Excadrill
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  2. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    You need to have a Scarf set on Latios, as that huge base speed is one of the main reasons it is good.

    Albiet rare Jirachi is a Counter

    Unslash CM from Standard Attacker and put something like Surf in
     
  3. Msyu

    Msyu You don't qualify.

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    I really don't know what I could come up with to write about a Choice Scarf set on Latios performing in the Ubers tier. Soul Dew is the trademark item that keeps Latios' stats competitively afloat in the tier. Without it, he loses quite a bit of power and his attacks become quite punishable, not to mention inconsequential if it doesn't hit a dragon. That said, revenging Dragon-types would be the ONLY task he would be somewhat capable of doing. The loss in bulk and the capacity to be an decent offensive threat would weaken a team more than strengthen it. Considering it as a bluff though, it's a little hard to pull off as Draco Meteor becomes a mandatory move - I don't think anybody wants to throw around Choice Scarf Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power [Fire], Surf, or Psyshock in light of the free turns the opposing team gets when they switch into anything with remotely any bulk investment.

    Surf is mentioned as a neutral option in the fourth bullet. Calm Mind is merely another option on a Standard Attacker set - I've alluded to many more in the OO section. I will add Jirachi as a weather-permitting counter.

    Thanks for your input.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Damn, you've made Latios into a total sir with how formal your writing style is. xD

    I know little about the Ubers tier, so I'll leave actual critique to the QC people, but one thing I will suggest is to use the proper format:

    Pokemon @ Hold item
    Ability: Ability
    EVs: HP / Atk / Def / SAtk / SDef / Spd (in that order. Uninvested stats don't need listing, obviously. xD)
    X nature (+A, -B)

    Consistency makes it easier for QC guys to read through.

    You've got all the required sections, which is good. Another optional one you can consider is 'Synergy', if you can find enough to write about it. :3
     
  5. Blimlax

    Blimlax A Silent and Serene Heart

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    Great analysis, I already talked with you on PO about latios and you added the suggestions in so it looks like we have some good information here.

    Scarf Latios is horrible in ubers and severely outclassed by other scarfers in terms of usefulness, it does not deserve a mention...
     
  6. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    jesus this is long lol

    standard atker should be

    draco meteor
    grass knot/ thunder
    hp fire/ surf
    psyshock/ roost/ roar/ memento

    grass knot + hp fire for a sun team and surf + thunder for a rain team
    roar so ekiller cant set up on u after a meteor and memento gives u set up options against other stuff as well

    i wouldnt call chansey or bliss counters since theyre both 2hkoed after rocks

    252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 283-334 (44.08 - 52.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 388-457 (59.5 - 70.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    same goes for lugia and ttar

    252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Thunder vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Lugia: 254-300 (61.05 - 72.11%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 202-238 (50 - 58.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    even jirachi can lose in rain to rain latios

    252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Jirachi in rain: 173-204 (42.82 - 50.49%) -- 2.34% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    my point is latios doesnt have any general counters that work in all situations
    ur counters in the right weather are:

    spdef heatran in sun
    jirachi in rain vs sun latios
    jirachi in sun vs rain latios

    u havent finished this section yet, but i would emphasise the best way of dealing with latios is just revenging it
     
  7. mewtwobaws

    mewtwobaws Member

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    best ubers set
    Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Roost
    - Draco Meteor
    - Grass Knot
    - Psychic

    ok so my reasoning behind my favorite set being roost, draco, psychic, and grass knot is, you have roost for recovery, you have draco meteor and psychic for obvious powerful stab moves and grass knot hits both kyogre and groudon for super effective dammafe, and very hard at that, making it easier for the weather war to be yours, and the grass knot is what really makes me like this set :P
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  8. -Leon-

    -Leon- bae <3

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    Very nicely done analysis.I can't see anything missing here.Good job.We need more Ubers analysis like this.
    EDIT:Scarf Latios is not viable in Ubers IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  9. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    This is incredibly complete. Great job Msyu! Only thing I'd like to see change is to remove Thunderbolt as a third slash on the third bullet. Either you run Thunder, or Grass Knot. That's such a minor thing though, and that's a testament to how detailed this is!
     
  10. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Holy crap this is detailed. It's even on par with Spoovo's NU analyses :I. Definitely think about a Synergy section to make it most detailed analysis evar.

    Scarf Latios, while viable in OU, is completely outclassed by Soul Dew in Ubers. Latios would rather have that huge SAtk and hugish SDef while not being locked in than outpacing a few other Ubers in the tier and be stuck.

    Btw I saw you reserve a ton of analyses in Ubers section. If you can get all of them done and uploaded on the Wiki, this subforum is in good hands :D
     
  11. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Scarf Latios is only really good in OU. In Ubers, it prefers the extra Calm Mind boost from Soul Dew.

    I also really think Dragon Pulse belongs in place of Draco Meteor; Draco Meteor gives -2, despite its promising power, and setting up multiple Calm Minds is not always the easiest thing in Ubers. Dragon Pulse is more consistent, and allows Latios to sweep better.
     
  12. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Holy... THIS THING IS SO FREAKING DETAILED IT MAKES MINE LOOK TERRIBLE!

    Any ways imo dracometeor should be a / move with dragon pulse as the main on the calm mind set. I'm not to fond of the -2 special drop from draco. Grass knot also needs to be included on the cm set.
     
  13. Msyu

    Msyu You don't qualify.

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    Thanks for all the praise and nitpicks. I'll reply to everybody's posts here soon, once my analysis of both sets are done. So, whatever concern you have will essentially take part in somewhere in the current analysis, rather than me just responding by stating whatever delusional nonsense I have to say on the spot, whether it be true or false... is surprisingly and regrettably the make-up of the majority of my unrevised pointers as several of you have already noticed.

    To clarify on my decided order of things that would make all this a little bit more objective for me, once I've really had the chance to toss it around in my head for a bit, I'll see to writing you all a proper reply. For now, I just want to get this over with, but my agenda remains to make this as accurate and complete as possible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013