[BW2] July and August Wifi UU Tier / Potential Suspect Discusson

Discussion in 'Gen 5 UU' started by NAVIDAD PIRATE, Jul 1, 2013.

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  1. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    ^ Don't worry, you summed up Victini nicely.
    If it weren't for V-creates stat drops forcing it to switch out and S.R, then you could consider Victini a suspect.
     
  2. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    So are we ever gonna (test)unban Smeargle or not because I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who's been saying this for months
     
  3. Fille

    Fille True GenderBender

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    Really want to bring effective smashpass to the tier? e.e
     
  4. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    If that happens pokes like Togekiss and Nidoking will spike in usage :x
     
  5. Kyrk

    Kyrk KACAW

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    Well an option to safely unban Smeargle would be to simultaneously ban SmashPass. However, Smeargle was the only user in the tier that made SmashPass actually difficult to deal with since Gorebyss and Huntail didn't have any other support moves that crippled and/or prevented the opponent's pokemon from stopping them from setting up.
     
  6. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    A free Smashpass is still a free Smashpass and that's the problem with Smeargle.

    Also, Smeargle can use really obscure sets like Destiny Bond trap and Suicide Lead sets that give off a huge advantage. Btw, it can still BP Shift Gear, Belly Drum, or Quiver Dance.

    The real problem is easily Spore that allows it to get away with these shenanigans.

    So, to balance this, we either complex ban Smashpass/Spore/BP.

    Or, we can just ban Smeargle and call it a day...
     
  7. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    Smashpass IS banned in Wifi UU.
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    fyi this is incorrect, it's banned in LU and below.

    and for ppl reacting to SmashPass as an idea, please notice that Smeargle is RU in smogon, where SmashPass is also allowed in UU.
     
  9. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    I'd be ok with the Smeargle retest if SmashPass gets banned in UU too.

    On the Victini topic: I'm not sure people realize what is the true potential of this thingy. This mon can run effectively a CB and a full-special or mixed set with Life Orb or Expert Belt as item. These sets have completely different counters, so you don't know what to switch into it and often end up saccin a mon just because you guessed wrong!
    Now I'm not saying Victini is broken or even suspect-worthy, just want to point out that despite its SR weakness this guy is actually really threatening.
     
  10. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    victini mienshao + chandelure all deserve suspects imo

    victini for unpredictability, ridiculous STAB move and great movepool

    Mienshao for speed and the power of reckless hjk and the ability to sweep so easily

    chandelure for nothing being able to wall its specs set and it not being easy to revenge kill

    i know that was brief but ill write more if others agree, i feel ^ are the suspects that should happen before gen 6 arrives.
     
  11. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Let's just suspect everything that is good as it seems that's all you want to do when I lurk these forums lol. Gen6 arrives in just 1.5 months.
     
  12. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Nah, no mention of something like Heracross (for example)

    Out of the 3 listed I would say Victini is the most deserving of a suspect.
     
  13. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    you're right gen 6 is right around the corner, so surely its best to leave gen 5 in as best state as possible, and if you dont think they're suspect worthy state why.
     
  14. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    Let's be realistic. If Smogon wasn't suspecting Victini then people most likely wouldn't be bringing it up. Just because Smogon suspects something that doesn't mean the same has to happen here. I would say Victini is somewhat comparable to Kingdra. Both can run a physical, special or mixed set and if you predict your opponent's set wrong then you may end up losing a Pokemon. However, once you know what the set is, it becomes much easier to deal with. Don't get me wrong, Victini is great Pokemon but in my view it's not suspect worthy.

    Mienshao is very one dimensional and predictable. I wouldn't say it can 'sweep so easily'. First of all, it has multiple checks in the tier: Bulky ghosts such as Cofagrigus, Sableye and Golurk, Qwilfish, Slowbro, Gligar, Crobat, Nidoqueen etc... Also, it's so frail that if it has to take an attack in retaliation then it's very likely that it's going to at least be 2HKO'd. Not suspect worthy in my opinion.

    You can find my thoughts on Chandelure here: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...ion-Chandelure&p=202410&viewfull=1#post202410

    Most players posting in that thread didn't think it was broken and I don't feel enough has changed in the tier to make Chandelure suspect worthy again.

    Overall, the tier seems to be quite balanced. I don't think anything needs to suspected at this point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  15. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Ah Smogon are suspecting it. So you can bet suddenly it'll have no safe switch ins and be completely broken.
     
  16. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    ...

    Smogon suspected (and banned) Froslass months after the PO ban, and I'm pretty sure the UU community has been discussing Victini (on server) for quite a long time. Let's drop the follow-Smogon-phobia.

    @Orcelot It's true that Kingdra can go both physical and special, but Victini has other selling points over her. First, the high base power of his moves which, unlike DMeteor and Outrage, don't require the attack drop or being locked in the move. Second, the sweet 100 base speed which is very good in UU. Sure Kingdra can overcome that but needs to waste precious turns to set up RD or DDs. Third, the great movepool allowing it to nail nearly everything on the switch. Kingdra has nearly perfect coverage with only its STABs, but you know it will always use a Water or Dragon type attack, and that helps a bit.

    Again I'm not necessarily toward a ban, just trying to contribute to the thread by making some observations on Victini and not just pointless sarcasm.
     
  17. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just feel I should mention that OU is really the only tier that's drastically affected by smogon, and that's just because it's the standard tier that Smogon kind of has a monopoly on. The lower tiers are a different story.

    That being said, victini has been talked about several times before, just that no one took the extra step and went "hey, can we suspect this?" I have no opinion on it, but it does have some nice qualities that would make it suspect worthy. V_Create really sucks just as much as it's awesome though, and the mixed/special sets are reminiscent of Nidoqueen in LU where nothing can really switch save a few select pokemon, but it still has weaknesses that restrict it a bit.
     
  18. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    The problem with finding what Victini's set is that different Pokemon beat different sets (wow that's worded badly), Rhyperior for example beats a purely physical set but gets destroyed by a mixed or special set.

    One problem that Victini has is its base stats -sounds weird but is true- whilst base 100's is great and all, it would be far more threatening if it had 110 atk and sp.atk with 90 def/spdef for example. The balanced stats do take a bit away from a pokemon that is almost always used offensively. I don't even know the last time I saw a defensive Victini, lol.

    I think Victini deserves at the very least a suspect discussion.


    Offtopic because it's bugging me:

    Pnerd, one of your badges says

    is this a typing error or? :S
     
  19. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Victini:
    Yeah I didn't even know Victini was suspected on smogon, and I agree with Fosco's points, both Kingdra + Victini are threatening before you know if their the Physical or Special set, But both of Kingdra's sets have reliable Checks/Counters in Umbreon (Foul Play does huge damage after a DD) + Emploeon, and generally most good walls such as P2 + roar Suicune since Kingdra isn't really all that powerful, even at +1. And you always know it's going to be running Water/Dragon attacks (although that might not help because the coverage is so good). Victini on the other hand is far more unpredictable and it's mixed sets are incredibly good just because it has access to the 180 bp V-create to stomp almost all Special walls. Snorlax is probably the most reliable Check since it can absorb even Banded V-Create and doesn't take much from Vic's special attacks, however this too can be 2HKO'd by LO Focus Blast after rocks. Genereally the few things that can actaully switch into a V-Create are destroyed if Victini turns out to be the mixed or Special set. It also hits a nice speed tier and has impressive bulk, though not a lot of resists. And yes it's weak to hazards, but Blastoise a common and good partner for Victini can beat Chandelure 1 on 1 to spin, and has access to foresight to spin on Cofag, so if you're decent rocks shouldn't be up until late game.

    I think it deserves a suspect at least.

    Scarf Mienshao:
    I don't know if you've played much UU recently, but the amount of games that end up coming down to a speed tie between 2 Mienshao's is quite ridiculous. Most of the checks/counters you mentioned are very difficult to keep healthy throughout a game apart from maybe Gligar + Slowbro, and Gligar isn't exctly reliable since a scarfed HP Ice does around 70%, meaning it is 2HKO'd by HJK the next time it comes in, or OHKO'd after rocks. The other checks/counters are difficult to keep healthy because they nearly all lack reliable recovery +Mienshao's HJK is so strong that you'll be forced into these things a lot, where Mienshao can just U-Turn and gain momentum and bring in a strong Special Attacker. I know many other pokemon can force things out and then U-Turn, but other things can't outspeed + OHKO literally every offensive pokemon in the tier like Mienshao can, and 2hko offensive pokes that that resist hjk like Heracross. It's frailty isn't really important since you shouldn't let your Mienshao take hits anyway. In a dream world (for me) we would just complex ban Reckless + Mienshao, since it's the power boost to HJK from reckless which just sends Mienshao over the edge, landing numerous ohko's on decently bulky mons like Flygon + Kingdra, and even 2hko'ing things like max defense Blastoise + Bronzong (something other scarfers such as Heracross + Flygon cannot hope to do against good Physical walls which don't resist their STAB)

    TL;DR
    Outspeeds + ohko's nearly all offensive pokes in the tier with hjk, can 2hko a lot of hjk resists with stone edge, so strong it's checks/counters are forced out a lot so are worn down a lot, most of these checks/counters also lack recovery. Want complex reckless + shao ban but know it'll never happen.

    Specs Chandelure:
    The thing is unwallable, the only 2 possible Counters Snorlax + P2 are crippled by trick, or can be dealt with in other ways. P2 relies on trace to beat Chandelure, so run Flame Body and it isn't an issue, and standard Snorlax is 3hko'd by HP Fighting, with a possibility for a 2hko after rocks, and doesn't usually run an attack to hit Chandy (Whirlwind + Body Slam) so can phaze at best after taking at least 2 HP Fightings, and CB Lax has a big chance to be 2HKO'd by HP Fighting. So it's only 2 possible counters aren't in fact counters at all and can be dealt with rather easily without having to run an obscure set.

    On the speed front it outspeeds every wall it breaks, and a few offensive pokemon but not too many, however it is not easy to revenge kill. Mienshao's + Heracross' Stone Edge, Specs Raikou's thunderbolt, banded Victini's Zen Headbutt, ada LO Arcanine's Crunch, offensive TR Cofag's shadow ball, Mew's Ada LO Sucker Punch, Darmanitan's Rock Slide, Shaymin's Earth Power, Azumarill's Banded Aqua Jet + Virizion's/Cobalion's LO Stone Edge all fail to OHKO Chandelure from full. That's majority of the tiers premier revenge killers all failing to revenge kill Chandelure, and likely getting OHKO'd back in the process. Yes there are still things that can revenge kill like Flygon, Kingdra (if special) + Nidoking, but with the sheer amount of things that fail to Revenge kill, I wouldn't say it has numerous checks at all.

    TL;DR
    0 counters, can 2HKO the whole tier. Difficult to revenge kill due to good typing and decent bulk.

    I personally believe all 3 are worthy of suspects, but I know I'll just be written off as the guy who wants to ban everything, dspite the validity of my points.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  20. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    chandy already had a suspect and was deemed not broken, and this was in a meta that was slower and more defensive than the current one. at the moment teams either pack special walls and have good type synergy or run enough offense to not let chandy in easily

    mienshao is definitely not getting a suspect. while reckless hjk hurts, orcelot was correct in stating that it's extremely one-dimensional. while u-turn throws a wrinkle into countering it, it requires major team support to remove the ghosts/nidos/gligar/psychics in order to allow it to clean up effectively.

    victini would be okay as a suspect; I don't really agree with it but there's no denying it's offensive prowess. it really seems more like a vocal minority than anything at them moment though, so I'd like to see other thoughts before opening a proper discussion.
     
  21. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I agree on chandy and victini needing suspect tests,

    chandy is honestly one of the scariest pokes there is. It is able to 2hko the best special wall in the tier, great dual stab, incredible special attack, decent movepool, and access to trick to cripple something like porygon2/snorlax which is usually it's most common switch ins. It can run several good sets such as sub painsplit scarf or specs. This is a little easier to predict than the next thing I'll talk about though.

    Victini has 0 counters. It's different from other pokes that have 0 counters because victini is fast, 100 base speed, bulky, 100/100/100 defenses are incredible, and it can run both special and physical sets to equal success. It is able to 2hko gligar if banded and can ohko w/ hp ice if special. Nothing is safe from this, mixtini is also viable w/ ebelt which can grass knot after a vcreate killing off something like rhyperior or pert that thought they were safe. I could go on for a while on both of these. Even if you don't suspect chandy, this NEEDS a suspect.
     
  22. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    i'd like to say for the 2348904820347856th time to people, well done on noticing that pokemon can 2hko a lot of things.

    and seriously noone was saying victini was broken until people (smogon) started making up sets for it that noone uses. and well done for figuring that victini has a way to beat one of its counters with grass knot lol. like duh. cmon.

    i just like how people always decide to ignore anything negative about a pokemon for the sake of screaming "broken". hence how so much unnecessary crap has gotten banned in BW2.

    lets just unban smeargle retest hail maybe and be done with the gen.
     
  23. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I've always thought victini was broken and I was not aware smogon was testing it seeing as I don't use/care for showdown. You're only now listening to people saying victini is broken, and even if smogon is testing it, doesn't that show that multiple people think that it is broken?
     
  24. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Chandy:
    Yes but it was deemed not broken on the basis it had a lot of revenge killers (due to its low speed) and that it had 2 somewhat reliable Counters in P2 and Snorlax, neither of which are true. And the fact it has great enough bulk to live SE attacks from majority of the tiers offensive threats and has many Immunities/Resistances means it isn't difficult to bring out.

    Mienshao:
    Yes it's relatively one dimensional however it can still surprise it's best/most common check Gligar with HP Ice. And it does in no way require 'major team support' to remove its Checks and Counters, singular pokemon like banded Victini, specs Chandelure, Nidoking + specs Raikou/Zapdos as examples can basically deal with all of it's Checks/Counters. And with other Scarfers like Flygon/Heracross you don't need your Counter/Check alive to not get swept, either other Scarfers can outspeed them or general good physical walls ala Blastoise/Bronzong can avoid the 2HKO from them, the same can't be said for Mienshao.
     
  25. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Apparently people don't know the textbook definition of broken.

    A broken Pokemon in the tier is not a Pokemon with no counters. We have several of those such as Hydreigon, technically Wobbuffet, and Lucario.
    A broken Pokemon in the tier is a Pokemon that shifts the metagame to such an extreme amount that it is deemed unbearable. Examples include Liepard, Deoxys-D, and Excadrill.

    That being said, just because it can kill everything doesn't mean it must be banned. In that case, Rampardos or Slaking would have been banned a long time ago. However, if it causes a major shift in the environment that is near-impossible to adapt to, then there is a good reason to ban it.

    That being said, the topics we have are the following:
    [SECRET]
    Victini: Victini's problem isn't that it kills everything; Victini's problem is that you can't figure out what will happen. It creates a fearful environment where you need to have a hard counter to it, which does not exist anymore. Nothing wrong in testing this and is, if anything, the one that should be tested first.
    Mienshao: ONE-DIMENSIONAL POKEMON CAN STILL BE TESTED. Sawk was tested and it was completely one-dimensional. I for one don't count it as broken, but don't ditch the idea because it can only do one and a half things.
    Chandelure: Don't use Choice Item as a prime reason to ban something, especially when weak to every hazard out there and being easy to revenge kill. Chandelure is perfectly stoppable because of its average speed and bulk for the tier. Power doesn't mean anything when it can't keep up or survive.
    Smeargle: Smeargle is a weird and totally biased Pokemon. It's broken to some people because of SmashPass or Spore, but not broken to others. Maybe a retest to prove itself could be done.
    Hail: No. Hail was tested and proven a complete failure in the past. Not much if I remember correctly has changed to make Hail more balanced in Underused. Let's drop this.
    [/SECRET]
     
  26. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    first off fuck off with this hard counter shit EVERYONE STOP SAYING "CAN 2HKO ANYTHING WITH ITS 18 POSSIBLE COVERAGE MOVES" = "NO COUNTERS/BROKEN"

    this is something that has really goddamn plagued BW2 metagaming and i've beyond had it up to here with it. we seem to have completely redefined all suspecting based around not wanting to deal with hard hitters and it's REALLY annoying.

    there are pokemon that absolutely switch in on at least 3/4 of Victini, Mienshao and Chandelure's moves with 0 problem, and often with actual benefit to their own team - Victini and Chandelure are pursuit weak and mostly choiced, weak to sucker punches if they're not, both are also SR weak and have limited switch in opportunities. These can easily be taken advantage of with a little bit of intelligent play. If they switch in on the 1/4 that they can't, that's called predicting, which as we know BOTH sides can do. The benefit of prediction is not for some bizarre reason biased towards Victini, Chandelure or Mienshao (especially not Mienshao whose coverage is extremely limited and fails to 2hko switch ins like Zapdos anyway, and always loses to pokemon like Cofagrigus anyway regardless of their set).

    "but they can U-turn on their counters" aside from this being prediction and a tired ass argument, there are pokemon like Slowbro who really don't give a shit, they can Regen off more than the damage done to them with the U-turn and switch to the counter/check of whatever got brought in. The biggest Mienshao and Victini gain out of U-turning out on shit is an extra 15-20% of damage on the switch in. Which does give their team a tiny advantage of whittling down [only some] counters slowly, allowing them to be potentially eliminated or weakened later. Which is called intelligent, calculated play that thinks ahead multiple turns. And what if you U-turn on the thing you're threatening out? In UU unless you're against full stall (and even sometimes if you're against that) you're potentially losing a pokemon or getting it crippled. The full burden of prediction is not on the opposing team. These are pokemon which require intelligent play in order to gain an advantage against your opponent.

    Victini has trouble with some both offensive and defensive pokemon. Same goes for Chandelure. Same goes for Mienshao. There is no playstyle advantage for them in being offensive pokemon. There is no prediction advantage for them simply for having coverage. All of these pokemon have pros and cons which, weighed up, overall make them really excellent pokemon in the tier. And I'm fed up of "really good" and "only 2-3 of my team can switch in to it" being "broken".

    PS the above parts of the post aren't really addressing Nido's post, so sorry if it's felt as aggressive towards Nido. It's not intended as such.

    "Smeargle is a weird and totally biased Pokemon" I don't really understand this. But offering SmashPass as a reason it could be broken is both disprovable (see Smogon UU, a near-identical metagame with 0 problems with SmashPass for a lot of months) and pure theorymon/panic.

    "Hail: No. Hail was tested and proven a complete failure in the past." Since when was Hail retested in UU before? Please enlighten me. The only time it was "tested" is when it was suspected and deemed broken, in an entirely different meta to the one we have now. It's time to retest it.
     
  27. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Pokémon which would benefit from Hail in UU apart from Abomasnow. Kyurem(B) has been banned from UU, as has Froslass. And I don't think Hail would make the tier too stall-y. I don't see the harm in a Hail retest.

    Smeargle, I'm in 2 minds about. Smashpass is a very risky strategy, and Smeargle's pretty much only got one chance to pull it off. However, if it gets the chance to do it, it's pretty much gg right there. With Nidoking/Queen at +2 +2 +2 they'd be nigh on unstoppable. That said, Xatu hard counters Smeargle - it can reflect any status moves back, and Whirlwind away possible BP recipients. I'm not clamouring for a Smeargle retest, but I wouldn't be opposed to one either.

    Victini's fine. Is it a Pokémon you have to prepare for? Hell yeah. But its weakness to Sucker Punch and entry hazards really hurt it. The physical sets are hard countered by Rhyperior - the mixed set has trouble with Snorlax (even with Victory Star, Focus Blast still has worse accuracy than Stone Edge and we all know how unreliable that move is).

    Mienshao and Chandelure aren't even close to broken. Chandelure is frail, has sub par speed and is weak to hazards. Mienshao is virtually helpless against any Ghost type.
     
  28. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    It would make Walrein, Rotom-F and Nidoqueen more viable. That's all I can think of at the moment.
     
  29. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Rotom-F I get. Nidoqueen has no trouble being viable these days anyway, but getting a 156 power Blizzard (with Sheer Force) would certainly give her a boost. Nidoking would be very threatening as well. The old Stallrein set is irritating as hell, but with so many Fighting types in UU all waiting to tear it apart, I think it would be controllable.
     
  30. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Nidoqueen would be extremely useful fitting in to hail teams, it does a lot for them, provides a check to fighting types, tspikes and general bulk/power. Stallrein does what it does even with a million fighting types. All it needs to do is get one sub up before the fightings come in, too. Stallrein would clearly not be broken, though annoying lol
     
  31. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    ... Chandelure isn't frail at all, if you read my post you'd see the numerous SE attacks it can live, so it is by no means frail. Pursuit + Sucker Punchers are pretty rare in this tier, and the ones that get STAB on it take a huge amount/die from Shadow Ball or HP Fighting if they don't predict correctly. Being weak to hazards does hold it back somewhat but UU is the easiest tier to spin in imo, both Blastoise + Hitmontop have access to Foresight, and Blastoise can hit Golurk + Chandelure with a SE STAB Scald and win 1 on 1 every time. and Chandelure only requires 3 moves to be unwallable, Hp Fighting|Shadow Ball|Fire Blast, and you don't need to predict that well with the STAB attacks because they're powerful enough to break through basically any offensive resist in 2 hits.

    And as for Mienshao, a fighting type being walled by a bulky ghost doesn't mean it isn't broken... and only Defensive Zapdos can survive 2 Stone Edges. And as for U-Turn yes i guess it does require prediction but it's HJK is so strong that things are often forced out, so you can U-Turn and gain momentum, When Mienshao U-Turns it isn't to get damage off on it's Checks and Counters, tho that is helpful, it's to gain switch initiative and bring in a teammate who can threaten it's check/counter.
     
  32. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    Most people think Chandelure is frail because it's weak to SR lol. Chandelure's bulk is excellent. That said, I highly doubt it's going to be retested because the UU meta has been pretty much the same for more than a year after the last Chandy suspect.

    An hail retest is definitely possible imo, not only it may be not broken, it couldn't even be viable in the current meta with all the fighting and fire types flying around.

    Xatu doens't get Whirlwind, maybe you meant Haze; in any case I wouldn't say SmashPass is acceptable only because one mon with one specific set can beat it 100% of the times.
     
  33. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Hail stall would be very potent in UU... Something along the lines of Abomasnow/Hitmontop/Qwilfish/Cofagrigus/Umbreon/Rhyperior could do serious work, especially considering you don't have to compete with other weather.
     
  34. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    But that team would probably be more successful if it had another Pokemon instead of Abomasnow.
     
  35. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Abomasnow is the only fully evolved Pokémon to get Snow Warning.

    Um no it isn't. 60/90/90 is average at best. 80 speed is also poor for an offensive Pokemon which leaves it outsped by a fair few things in the tier. Offensive Snorlax can pretty much stop it cold with Earthquake and Pursuit, while Suicune and Kingdra can switch in on any move (Suicune can be OHKOd by Specs Energy Ball after Stealth Rock), outrun and OHKO with Surf.
     
  36. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    For the first part I wasn't talking about hail, I was saying that that example stall team would probably more successful if Abomasnow was replaced by something else anyway, meaning that Abomasnow is often outclassed by a lot of things.

    Neither Suicune or Kingdra can switch in on every Chandelure attack, Kingdra with no HP or Sp.Def EV's, can be OHKO'd after rocks by specs shadowball, whilst 252HP Suicune gets 2HKO'd by Shadow Ball, it's pretty safe to use Shadow Ball with Chandelure anyway as a decent portion of the normal types in the tier, like Snorlax and P2 are switching in with relative impunity to Chandelure's attacking moves and the others like Togekiss and Meloetta don't enjoy taking Fire Blasts or Overheats.

    A speedy Suicune is pretty uncommon also, as the vast majority are RestTalkers with either CMScald or ScaldRoar as the last moves.

    In terms of its defences 60/90/90 really is not bad for such a powerhouse. The low HP can be a benefit more than a flaw as a SubSplit set is a possibility, whilst obviously in other situations is not great that's fine. And 90/90 is pretty nice for UU, I would say pretty far above average as far as mixed bulk goes.


    I personally don't think Chandelure is broken, but obviously it's a top tier threat.
     
  37. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Specs Lure runs 120 HP, so is not frail at all, as ive stated many times now just look at the attacks it can survive to see how bulky it is. And Banded Lax takes 45-53% from HP Fighting so definitely can't stop it cold, and the 2 water types are 2hko'd by shadow ball.
     
  38. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    ok

    first off, there is no "textbook definition" of broken. everything is taken on a case by case basis.

    on chandelure: no bulky water in the tier besides something like sdef milotic can switch into a specs shadow ball without getting 2hko'd. also offensive lax gets 2hko'd by hp fighting after rocks, so none of those things really "deal" with it.

    also it's bulk is neither excellent (due to the SR weakness sapping its hp) nor frail (due to the immunities and resistances its unique typing provides); it's fairly average. chandy takes neutral hits fairly well, and while afro's SE attack list comprehensive, it doesn't factor in SR or any prior damage, both of which chandy is liable to get hit by.

    regardless of all of this, chandy's most "broken" set, the specs one, is heavily reliant on prediction to get the most mileage out of it. while the damage output is massive, its three main attacks (fire blast, shadow ball, hp fighting) all have immunities, and being locked into the wrong one can instantly change the momentum of the game. now I realize prediction goes both ways and the chandelure user can also use it, but locking yourself into one of those moves makes it high risk / high reward for sure. while trick mitigates this problem to an extent and removes some flexibility from checking it, it also lessens chandy's offensive potency from "holy shit holy shit what do I do" to "ok this is reasonable now if I play smart."

    on mienshao: I'm really not seeing the argument for its brokenness (sp?). in this meta you basically need multiple checks/counters to fighters due to the sheer amount of them and the potency of moxie hera. the fact that you can pair mienshao with a mon or two that break down its checks/counters a) means that it does require team support to function effectively and b) actually rewards good teambuilding and battle planning.

    on victini: just see my last post. I will say that it's definitely less prediction reliant than the other two due to u-turn and the ability to run LO / ebelt with success, so yeah there's that. also sucker punchers and pursuits don't really exist in this tier beyond like honchkrow and pursuit lax, so they aren't really viable ways to deal with it. rocks weakness is still there tho.

    on smeargle: we're likely gonna retest smeargle once we know what's going on with the tier shifts. tbh smashpass will likely be super gay, but there's no harm in reintroducing the mon as a whole back into the meta.

    on hail: meh
     
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