[BW2] July / August Wifi NU Tier / Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Jul 1, 2013.

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  1. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Base 85 is hardly easily outrun, and it being one dimensional doesn't detract from it being broken imo, just because you know what it's going to do, doesn't mean you can stop it. Also as you said many potential checks are 2HKO'd by the correct coverage move, so we're back to Bulky Ghosts and psychics, and Tangela being the only worthy checks. Gurdurr is a very strong poke in its own right but it cant just destroy with the immediate power that Sawk has, it has to take a turn to set up a bulk up to dish out real damage, and in that turn you can easily switch into your counter/check such as Alomomola, Tangela, and any psychic type, including things like offensive Mesprit and threaten out, whilst Sawk just hits incredibly hard off the bat.
     
  2. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Sawk can easily be run alongside skuntank who traps said psychics and lets sawk clear up afterwards. Sawk is extremely powerful, sometimes able to 2hko tang after rocks and able to 2hko alom after rocks. it's only real counters are things like musharna/missy which get trapped by skuntank.

    ontop of his incredible attack stat and decent speed stat, he posses great abilities in sturdy and mold breaker, mold breaker letting him EQ levitators like wheezing and sturdy letting him live a hit from a scarfed poke and allowing it to kill said poke.
     
  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Arguments never to bring up in any kind of suspect discussion:

    Anything involving prediction - prediction's a 2 way street.
    "It can just switch out." Yeah so can every other Pokemon, unless it's been trapped
    "Its teammates can handle its checks." Again, every Pokemon has teammates that can handle its checks. That's basic teambuilding 101

    Sturdy's not a particularly useful ability in NU, since NU's spinners are rubbish. Armaldo and Torkoal are weak to the very hazards they spin away while Wartortle sucks away all offensive momentum. Sawk also struggles with common Pokémon and as Spoovo was saying both sets are greatly flawed. Band is easily revenge killed while Scarf lacks power. Defensive Misdreavus can take pretty much anything it has and cripple it with Will-O-Wisp. Weezing only fears Mold Breaker Earthquake. Musharna, Mesprit and Gardevoir can all survive an attack and OHKO with their respective Psychic STABs.
     
  4. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Yes we've already covered that it has counters in Misdreavus + Musharna, and checks in Mesprit + Tangela. Please stop bringing up Weezing, since as you said it is 2HKO'd by Earthquake, meaning it isn't a check, unless you want to bring up prediction which you just said isn't something to bring up in a suspect thread. And although the spinners in NU aren't great, you still can spin away basically every time with foresight turtle, or force misdreavus out with Torkoal's Yawn + then spin. So if you're committed it isn't difficult to keep Sawk's Sturdy intact. Both abilities have their benefits, Mold Breaker reduces the amount of Checks/Counters Sawk has + allows him to break through sturdy, whilst Sturdy makes him difficult to revenge kill. Also Sawk hits a great speed tier in NU at, which is especially good for a wall breaker.

    Another thing about Sawk is that the majority of checks can be trapped and killed by Skuntank + Houndoom, and no, this isn't true for other Fighting types like Gurdurr + Primape since they are still easily walled by the likes of Tangela, Alomomola and Weezing.

    And I know you love Gardevoir Dr. Doom but please don't even bring it up as a check, yes it can revenge kill Sawk but if it switches into a close combat it has a 50% chance of dying after rocks.

    Edit: Can we get some more people contributing to this.

    Edit 2: Tier leaders do you have any opinions on this?
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2013
  5. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    I don't use sawk at all but I see it alot, however, I've got to say that Sawk doesn't seem strong enough to break the tier. While Sawk is definitely powerful, It's not common to see it sweep a team, since it doesn't have the ability to set up or to outspeed, it has to chose strength or speed, which is it's downfall. Sawk feels more like a utility pokemon, something used in teams to cover one's butt. You don't see a sawk come in and feel sweat forming on your brow because it's switched in at the perfect time and can now set up and sweep your team like many other threats in the metagame(KK, Samurott, etc).

    While I'm back in this, I'd just like to ask this question. If you are on the top 5 pages of ranking for nu, or you have a seed higher than 30 in nu tournaments, and you use a KK, does that mean that KK is overcentralizing the tier?

    If you use assist roar, please don't count yourself in this question.
     
  6. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Hai.

    DAYUM. Sawk 25.3664 5377.

    On the subject of Sawk, it's arguably the best Pokemon in NU(I believe it is, either that or Klinklang). And Fighting-type Pokemon in NU are incredibly strong, and of course, every good NU team has at least one reliable check and/or counter to Fighting-type Pokemon. Because of that, 3 of the top 7 Pokemon being used in NU are able to effectively take on any Fighting-type Pokemon with investment, including Sawk. And like Afro said, two Pokemon in the top 7, are able to trap all of those counters, yey never-ending cycle. Also, I don't think this is TOO big of an issue to bring up, but the predictability of Sawk kinda hurts it. A LARGE amount of sets are choiced (guys seriously try Black Belt+Taunt, great moveset for Sawk) Sawk is easily able to be countered if prepared for correctly.

    For the last year or so, NU has always had these kind of usage stats. A lot of Fighting-, Psychic/Ghost, and Dark-type Pokemon getting a lot of usage since they're very easy to make an offensive core around. Trapping prediction plays a large role in the metagame, someone who plays more than 5 games of NU could tell you that they've had to predict around Pursuit/Sucker Punch at least once. That's just addressing the comment about pairing Sawk up with Houndoom/Skuntank. Very strong, but it's been apart of the metagame for a very long time. Teams should be ready for that kind of playstyle. Err I'd compare it to Ttar/Keldeo/Landorus in OU to an extent.

    imo, Sawk isn't broken due to the predictability of its sets, being countered by a plethora of Psychic and Ghost-type Pokemon, and low survivability. That's just my opinion, I expect everyone to have different ones. But I want to hear more. And if everyone feels that Sawk could use a retest, then I'd be more than happy to grant your wishes with a suspect.

    Please discuss.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2013
  7. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    The skill it takes to win when it comes to the Sawk, Musharna, and trapper (Houndoom / Skuntank) prediction might be a repetitive loop, but it takes a decent amount of ability to win in this type of metagame due to it. If anything, I think Sawk's a blessing to the NU metagame, not a cancer. Sawk isn't only a powerhouse, but it fits into plenty of teams, makes the metagame interesting, and keeps stall teams honest!

    I can see why some users believe it's a bit much for the tier because it hits like a truck, but so do plenty of other things (like Specs Keldeo in OU - connecting back to what cased said about Keldeo and tyranitar in OU.) It's still easily counterable and takes high-level play to eliminate these stops and give Sawk a window to break through whole teams.

    Just to give you an idea of what 'stops' Sawk:
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Musharna (+Def) : 28.9% - 33.94% (4-5 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 +1 Def Misdreavus (+Def) : 35.19% - 41.67% (3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Mesprit (+Def) : 33.52% - 39.56% (3 hits to KO) - some don't run fully defensive, but with decent HP investment you avoid a 2hko and OHKO back with Psychic (assuming they use Mold Breaker, which is better than Sturdy.)
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Mesprit (+Def) : 29.95% - 35.44% (4 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252 HP/252 Def Gardevoir (+Def) : 48.24% - 57.06% (2-3 hits to KO) - Iffy, but can still OHKO back, burn, recover, etc.
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Gardevoir (+Def) : 43.24% - 51.18% (3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Garbodor (+Def) : 35.16% - 41.48% (3-4 hits to KO)
     
  8. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    In all of my time playing Nu, I have never ever seen a fully defensive gardevoir, while it's good at countering its trappers(houndoom, Skuntank) the specs Gardevoir cleanly 2hko's anyway, and outspeeds skuntank easily with good prediction(Best bet, if you attempt to revenge kill and you see a skuntank on their side, for the love of god use thunderbolt, clean 2hko. They will almost always pursuit, not sucker punch)

    Anyway, I agree, Sawk isn't such a threat that it is a suspect for banning. However, I am a little interested in the damage calcs for a Ebelt set...
     
  9. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Defensive Garbador is great.

    Barf (Garbador) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Aftermath
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd (or enough speed to hit 217 for Missy and Skuntank)
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Spikes
    - Toxic / Drain Punch / Rock Blast
    - Gunk Shot
    - Clear Smog / Drain Punch / Rock Blast

    Decent check to fighters and is a nice Spiker for stall.

    Will edit in Ebelt set calcs for Sawk
     
  10. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    Not much to add because my co-leaders covered most things. Sawk's predictability is its downfall. It almost always runs a Choice set and more commonly as of late, a Choice Band set. Choice Scarf has fallen out of favor due to the drop of Primeape, it being the premier scarfer. Banded Sawk's wallbreaking capabilities cannot be denied, as it can 2hko the almighty Alomomola after rocks. Despite its power, Sawk is kept in check by the likes of Musharna, Misdreavus, Mesprit, and others that resist Sawk's STAB. Both Musharna and Misdreavus most commonly run a full defensive set, so neither have to run an obscure set just to counter Sawk. Sure, Pursuit trappers help Sawk get past these counters, most teams should be prepared to take them on. Like Cased said, Pursuit trapping is very common in the meta and your team should be prepped to deal with them, especially if you only have one Sawk counter. Some other good checks to Sawk that aren't weak to Pursuit trappers include Weezing (watch out for Mold Breaker), Tangela, Golbat, and Vileplume. 85 speed is nothing to joke about in NU but there are an array of Pokemon that can outspeed and revenge kill Sawk. Pokemon like Sawsbuck, Haunter, Kangaskhan, and Swellow all outspeed and revenge the Band set. I think it is important to remember that Close Combat lowers its defenses by 1 making it easier to revenge kill. This makes it easier for Scarfed Pokemon to ensure the KO after the defense drop. While 85 speed isn't very low, with 25% usage, teams should be prepared to outspeed it and take it out.

    So yeah, Sawk is strong as hell but its not broken due to its predictability and the ability to revenge kill it.
     
  11. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Sawk is checked by many of the Psychic, Ghost, and Poison types in the tier. Just because it is the most used doesn't mean it is over-centralized either (Scizor is't over-centralized, for example). I think Sawk is just fine tbh.

    I don't know any other Pokemon that "have to go" that weren't mentioned already. I want Ludicolo out because that is over-centralized, and Klingklang isn't the end of the metagame. Maybe Mespirit? But that is a bit far-fetched to be raging about...
     
  12. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Let's get Houndoom out of NU. I mean it clearly doesn't belong there, on Smogon it's top tier UU. Well tbh it's not really broken, it's just very good and overused. And I'm kinda tired of seeing teams with banded Sawk and trapper Houndoom, as Houndoom will just kill your Musharna/Misdreavus and then Sawk can OHKO/2HKO like everything else. I don't know how other people feel about this, but the metagame used to be better than this.

    And then I haven't mentioned the overpowered rain teams that are showing up. If you don't have a semi/full stall team then you really don't stand much of a chance, as offensive pokes all get outsped even when scarfed and ohko'd by Rain-boosted Life Orb Hydo Pumps. I've been using one myself and it's not even fair, 9/10 matches are decided before they even started. Ludicolo is obviously the biggest threat, but there's also Gorebyss, Seismitoad, Floatzel and Mantine (which is a very potent rain sweeper actually and checks opposing Ludicolo that lack Thunderpunch). Mesprit can set up SR and Rain Dance and then you're set to sweep :/
     
  13. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Houndoom won't move up unless the usage is high enough in LU or it is proven to be broken in NU, since it isn't really broken, it won't move up. Smogons tiers =/= our tiers.
     
  14. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    Actually, isn't the point of moving up some pokemon to keep people from building teams that dominate the tier? Since you can't ban a team per se, you have to remove pokemon that synergize(not a word) so well with others in the tier that it creates an "Unbeatable, or nigh unbeatable team" Which is probably why our tiers are based on usage in the first place. That's the reason why I'd like to see KK move up, so the KK, zang, houndoom, samurott, sawk team can stop dominating the tier. Nothing else is really powerful enough in that team to move up to Lu without being slaughtered, as there are good checks and counters to everything except KK, which is only checked.

    On the broken side, I don't think houndoom is broken, some common things destroy houndoom, it's really only there as a trapper and a check to other fire types. Ludicolo is broken, but cleanly countered by Gardevoir with trace, as it can take a giga drain and 2hko with focus miss(I'd love it if that attack was renamed to that) which would destroy any trappers that decided to switch in if scarfed, or if specs would do 55.18%- 65.21 with thunderbolt, a clean 2hko on ludicolo while 2hkoing the two premiere trappers of the tier(skuntank, and houndoom) if they switched in.
     
  15. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Gardevoir tracing Swift Swim doesn't make it Immune to Hydro Pump, so it is in no way a Counter to Ludicolo, and it can only revenge kill Ludicolo reliably when it is at around 60% since Ludicolo has impressive Special bulk.

    Houndoom is not OP, just very good. It's mixed set is great but it's trapping set is generally outclassed by Skuntank, unless you specifically want to trap Misdreavus. Houndoom can generally function very well in any tier it is placed, but is not OP in any said tier.

    Just to summarise my thoughts on Sawk:
    • So powerful that it being predictable isn't an issue.
    • NU's premier walls like Alomomola + Tangela are 2HKO'd after rocks.
    • It's only Counters share a weakness to Dark types meaning they can be Pursuit trapped, and I know you say this is 'part of the meta' but if a Dark type gets in for free there aren't many ways of switching out your Sawk Counter without taking enough damage to let Sawk 2HKO when you next come in, no matter how good you are.
    • Yes I understand there are ways to get around Pursuit trapping, Double Switching (2 way street) Mesprit U-Turn (Common) Musharna Baton Pass + Thunder Wave set (Uncommon), although Musharna is better off plowing through any team lacking a Dark type with it's Calm Mind set (yes I think Mush is broken too lol, don't let this take credibility away from my arguments if you think I'm too ban happy).
    • No Sawk is not comparable to other Fighting types in the regard of having they're Psychic and Ghost counters removed by trappers, as none of them boast anywhere near enough power to get through the Premier Walls Tangela + Alomomola, or Physically Defensive Posion types Like Weezing + Garbodor, which Sawk can get around with Mold Breaker Earthquake.
    • Base 85 Speed is incredibly good for a wall breaker that possesses the power Sawk does, Banded Sawk cannot and isn't meant to sweep teams, however this speed tier allows him to outspeed around 70% of NU (#onthespotstats) and OHKO/2HKO them.
    • No it isn't difficult per say to revenge kill Sawk with there being a lot of faster pokemon around in NU nowadays + the stat drops from CC, unless you're running Sturdy (which generally you shouldn't be on the Banded set, unless you're bad like Ryan.) but i wouldn't ever call it 'easy' to revenge kill.

    So overall i'd say due to the above factors it is at least worth a suspect, it's too easy to remove his Counters with minimal team support (1 trapper) and in practice he isn't that easy to revenge kill.

    Edit: If someone can refute all/majority of the points above, i'll back down on the Sawk Ban/Suspect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  16. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    Oh, no, A specs gardevoir ohko's after rocks and outspeeds ludicolo, while ludicolo only 2hko after rocks, yeah you'll take considerable damage coming in, but then the tables have turned, you have a super fast specs pokemon that can do whatever it wants for 4 turns, and in this case, the trapper will have to sucker punch, allowing the Gardevoir to get out(and if it is a rain team, most likely it won't have a trapper), Gardevoir counters Ludicolo hard.

    And even then, that's only assuming you switch into a hydro pump, which you won't if you bring in, say seismitoad on the hydropump and switch in gardevoir for the giga Drain

    Damage calcs: Psychic: 78.59 - 92.64% Signal Beam: 86.95 - 103.01% Focus Blast: 69.89 - 82.27% Thunderbolt: 55.18 - 65.21% on a ludicolo

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 260-308 (86.95 - 103.01%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(And come on, this is nu, you're running rocks.)

    Vs.

    Hydro Pump: 69.06 - 81.65% Giga Drain: 43.52 - 51.79% Ice Beam: 37.05 - 43.52% (Move 4): 0 - 0%

    252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 192-227 (69.06 - 81.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock outside of rain, adding in rain, it is an ohko, but you want ot build the situation where the opponent won't be Hydro pumping Gardevoir on the switch

    Don't get me wrong, this doesnt' mean that I want Ludicolo to stay, I just am saying something else counters it(not checks, but counters) besides Mantine and a ludicolo built to counter ludicolo. I suppose it's just a for the sake of argument post than anything else.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2013
  17. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    You aren't taking rain into account with the Hydro Pump
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Gardevoir: 104.33% - 123.1% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    However I didn't realise a Specs Signal Beam could OHKO after rocks, so definitely a more prominent check to rain than I initially thought.
     
  18. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    I did take into account the rain.

    In my case it's switching sei in on the hydropump, then switching in gardevoir for the giga drain for my team.
     
  19. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That's not really Gardevoir countering Ludicolo though, is it? It's the combination of Seismitoad and Gardevoir working their way AROUND a Ludicolo, which isn't exactly ideal.
     
  20. tsuike

    tsuike Member

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    That's just how I take down ludicolo when I come up against it with my team.

    And while Gardevoir does take damage on the switch, it becomes essentially unstoppable with specs since it now has traced swift swim and nothing in nu can outspeed at this point, leaving Gardevoir to either sweep(which is common) or at least wreck/severely damage the team. The only thing that beats it at this point is priority, which normally comes from samurott if you're thinking about priority that would benefit from rain, which oddly enough I don't see that often on a rain team, which is weird...I figure it'd be one of the first pokemon on a rain team as a powerful physical attacker...

    And as I said two or three posts ago, I'm not trying to say that ludicolo shouldn't go, it really is a bit too powerful for the tier, I was making an argument for the sake of arguing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2013
  21. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Well you do have a point. Also a Swift Swim Seismitoad outspeeds Ludicolo and KO's it with Sludge Wave after SR and Life Orb recoil:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Seismitoad Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 221-263 (73.91 - 87.95%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes (Spikes representing Life Orb recoil :P)
     
  22. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    but if it's swift swim, it won't be able to switch in

    Giga drain is obv ohko not even going to calc it
    252SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SAtk) Hydro Pump in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Seismitoad (Neutral): 117% - 138% (412 - 487 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

    So...yeah, it can't switch in unless it is defensive
     
  23. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Just thought that a few of you should know the difference between a counter and a check.

    Counter: A Pokemon that beats all or most variations of another Pokemon. Capable of Switching in easily. Example: Regirock counters Skuntank.

    Check: A Pokemon that can impede another Pokemon's sweep or stall cycle, but may not always win if the opponent carries a certain move. This can also apply to moves or hazards. Example: Houndoom checks Misdreavus.

    Decent posting, from most of you. I won't state specifics but some of you should think before you post. There are a few points that are ether invalid / incorrect or don't contribute much to the discussion.
     
  24. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Toad would be able to tank an Ice Beam at least, and then strike back? Sure, that's unlikely, but you can bait it with a Parasect or something lol. xD
     
  25. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    To be quite blunt, I can't see CB Sawk being bannable when CB Emboar is so much more destructive and the speed difference isn't even that relevant when considering the fact that you're still outspeeding most walls you're trying to break.

    Pretty much every relevant point you have against Sawk applies even more closely to Emboar; Emboar is pretty much impossible to switch in safely against (the one "safe" switch, Alomomola, still gets slammed by Superpower and "2HKOd" by Wild Charge (note that in reality these 2HKOs for Sawk and Emboar aren't even relevant since they'll just pivot out to a resist/immunity and heal most of the damage with Regenerator, and then all they need is one free switch-in and they're good as new)).

    The difference is that Sawk has generally safe switch-ins in Ghost and Psychic-types since the only nuke attack it has is Close Combat, while with Emboar having access to both Flare Blitz and Superpower (120 BP STAB moves with fantastic offensive typing) cuts the number of safe switch-ins drastically. It's not even necessary to run Skuntank with Emboar (though obviously it helps) because Flare Blitz does absurd things like 2HKOing Musharna and dealing 60-70% to Mesprit and Misdreavus.

    (also note that Emboar's superior bulk and Fire-typing give it many more opportunities to switch in on Will-o-Wisps and resisted Fire- and Grass-type attacks)

    Unless there's something incredibly significant in CB Sawk's higher base Speed that I'm missing that makes it a more dangerous wallbreaker than Emboar, who's capable of destroying the entirety of NU by itself, I can't see suspecting Sawk as being justifiable at all.

    Also not even going to bother mentioning Sawk's Scarf set since there's literally no way that that is even close to being "broken". (or the fact that Emboar can easily run mixed or pure Special sets to get around what few counters do exist, while Sawk is pigeon-holed into pretty much the one moveset of CC/EQ/Ice Punch/SE)
     
  26. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'd like to talk about Crawdaunt. I am honestly surprised this thing doesn't have more usage - I suppose the ubiquitous Sawk keeps the population in check. Anyway, with great base 120 Attack, perfect neutral coverage with its STABs (at least on anything you'd normally see) and Adaptability make it very dangerous. Even Tangela and Alomomola can't stop it - both are cleanly 2HKOd by a +2 Crunch (Tangela needs Rocks and 1 layer of spikes to guarantee the KO):

    252Atk +2 Adaptability Crawdaunt (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 43% - 51% (146 - 172 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 5% chance to 2HKO.
    252Atk +2 Adaptability Crawdaunt (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Alomomola (+Def): 51% - 60% (274 - 324 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying for a minute Crawdaunt should be suspected. I'm just wondering what people think of it.
     
  27. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    @Nicehat Emboar is a very powerful Wallbreaker and it's STAB's allow it to plow through things Sawk can only dream of, however it's lacklustre speed whilst still outspeeding walls means it can be revenge killed far easier than Sawk can, also it only has access to Superpower as it's (best) Fighting STAB and the Atk drop makes it alot easier to pivot around and means it can miss out on 2HKO's on the premier walls. Also Emboar's Fire typing is a 2 way street, an immunity to Will o Wisp is the main boon, however it means he takes more from rocks, and is weak to the common Water and Ground Attacks in the Tier. Overall it's just too slow to cause all but hardcore stall teams too many problems, yes there aren't (m)any switches into Emboar, but it's incredibly easy to find something to scare him out or revenge kill him. Ty for reminding me of Band Boar btw, one of my fave NU pokes.

    And as for Crawdaunt i've always preferred Choice Band to DD since even at +1 it is outsped by base 110+ mons like Archeops + Serperior and finding the opportunity to set up to +2 is rare because of its pitiful Special bulk, however it can set up on Alomomola all day. CB Hits very hard straight off the bat and can 2HKO mostly everything, and you can Toxic things that can live 2. I've seen a friend of mine ALLALA put Specs Crawdaunt to extremely good use, it is an incredible lure, and still hits very hard generally due to adaptability and the higher base power Surf. overall a pretty good mon, but fighting types and scarfed electric types are a bit too prominent for it to shine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2013
  28. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I don't like Sawk in NU... You're forced to use something like Musharna or Misdreavus to counter it, who are both extremely vulnerable to getting trapped by Houndoom (which is on most NU teams right now, especially in combination with Sawk). I see people using the argument that counters of a poke always have a counter on their own, but this time it is different. For one there are only two good checks to Sawk, everything else gets 2HKO'd one way or another. These two checks have no way of escaping from Pursuit-trappers like Houndoom or Skuntank which means that Sawk is free to OHKO/2HKO the rest of your team.

    This has centralized the entire metagame and basically completely ruined it. Idk why nobody else hasn't mentioned it.
     
  29. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    Well, it's a blessing to whoever is winning games with him, that's for sure. I don't see how seeing Sawk and Pals in the majority of battles keeps it interesting. It's just repetitive, really. And you say it keeps stall teams honest. What stall teams? Nobody runs stall. I can see why, with the metagame this centralized, it's gotta be tough.

    Oh boy, have I had to "predict" around Pursuit. I won't say Sucker Punch, because typically you're actually predicting between Crunch and Pursuit if you're worried about pursuit. This isn't really prediction though, it's a mind game, and it ends up being a coin flip. Choose correctly and your ghost or whatever lives another day. I don't find this particularly engaging. And realistically staying in isn't a good idea now that we have Houndoom. With Skuntank, something like Misdreavus could at least burn it, but wow not anymore. I find your T-Tar/Keldeo/Landorus comparison weird because Keldeo/Landorus are being suspected (or really discussed for suspecting), so ... uh... yeah. Maybe something's broken here too.


    I think testing Sawk is a good idea. It's odd though, it's been in the metagame for a long time, and it managed to get even more dangerous with nothing but new drops. It got a powerful partner in Houndoom, mainly.
     
  30. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    ...

    Anyways I'm glad to see support for at least a Sawk Suspect, I've said all I can on why I think It's broken, just up to tier leaders now.

    And as soon as Sawk is decided, i shall be moving swiftly on to Musharna.
     
  31. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Calm down Luck>Skill. We crossed that bridge in early BW NU, and it has way more things around to check and counter it. It's in no way broken, and people need to learn the difference between great pokemon and broken ones.

    Sawk definitely has a case going for it though, since it kind of feels like Medicham in DP NU. Less all around coverage and no priority tend to hurt its ability to completely annihilate teams though, and the whole centralization argument doesn't hold water since some other heavy hitter will take its place anyway; it's just the kind of tier NU is. We tried to "remedy" things that centralize the tier in the past and it failed horribly. It also doesn't centralize to the point where you have to carry a single pokemon just to take care of it, while not being useful in any other way. Sometimes you just have to adapt to whatever trends start to form. Happens all the time in these lower tiers, and 90% of the time it's something you can actively keep in check while team building.

    Still, a test would be interesting. I'll be lurking to see what happens.
     
  32. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I do know the difference, piloswine and mesprit are great pokemon, Musharna imo is broken, the reason I bring up these things here is so I can get other peoples points of view + arguments, which i might adopt as my own (whether they be for or against my original opinion).

    I will talk more on Mush after Sawk has been dealt with.
     
  33. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    While I don't see Sawk as broken in the slightest, it would be interesting to see a suspect for it. The only problem I see is that it'll completely ruin Sawk's competitive life. It barely sees 2% usage in LU, which automatically relegates it to BL3. Personally, I see that as a horrible way to finish gen 5. D:
     
  34. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    That isn't how suspecting works. If a Pokemon is deemed broken in a metagame, it is banned to the next BL, regardless of how it functions in higher tiers.
    Blazekin, Thundurus-I, and Deoxys-D see barely any usage in Ubers, but they are still not allowed in OU. Froslass, Blissey, and Haxorus aren't that huge in OU, but they're banned from UU. Etc.

    If Sawk is deemed broken, it will be banned to BL3. I don't care if it is amazing or horrible in LU. However, I believe it is fine in NU( as does Cased and a few others), but we shall see what happens. Please continute discussing potential suspects!
     
  35. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Oh yeah, I know that much. I just dislike how Sawk'll be ruined by it if it does go through. xD
     
  36. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Sawk's actually very viable/good in LU, but yeah that's irrelevant to suspect.

    Also if people disagree that Sawk deserves a suspect, then I'd prefer you addressed my points in post #95 rather than just saying you don't think it's broken (i'd rather my argument destroyed than ignored.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  37. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I'll talk with Finch and Incon about a possible suspect of Sawk. One thing kind of frustrates me though...

    Alright Sawk has been a top-tier Pokemon in NU for an incredibly long time, and has been at the top of the usage statistics for a very long time as well. Afro Smash brings it up, as he should, because he believed that it could possibly be broken. We have a Potential Suspect Discussion for a reason, to discuss about possibly broken Pokemon, and intelligently talk about why you believe it is or isn't broken. I'm surprised to have a bunch of people back-up Afro Smash's comments, because it's never really been a big deal in the last few Potential Suspect Discussions.

    What I'm trying to say is, don't be embarrassed about bringing up Pokemon you believe are broken or should be suspected. Although please bring solid evidence, if not, your post will either probably be disregarded by most users or be attacked for your insufficient information. I know that might make people a bit nervous about posting, but it only takes 5-10 minutes to think of a few good reasons why a Pokemon is very good.
     
  38. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    NU is pretty much unplayable right now, you're forced to use Musharna on every team because Banded Sawk flattens your team otherwise, it's that simple. Even if you use Musharna you will get trapped by Houndoom to the point that Sawk can 2HKO you. Teams like this are everywhere on the ladder and are ridiculously hard to stop. You see the trio of Musharna, Houndoom and Sawk everywhere and it doesn't allow for originality anymore. Nothing in the tier can stand up to Sawk aside from Musharna. It's extremely unhealthy for the tier in general.

    Sawk can't be compared to for example Scizor in OU either. Both have extremely high usage, but at least Scizor has a very good amount of counters (bulky waters, any Fire-type). Sawk is just flatout impossible to switch in to safely without getting 2HKO'd at best. There is Misdreavus but it has no chance against Houndoom, ever. It lacks reliable recovery too, so it's merely a half decent check. This has to be stopped for the sake of the tier.
     
  39. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    I'm not sure Sawk is broken but I'm ok for a suspect. I believe it centralizes the tier more than other top threats like Samurott and KlinKlang because unlike them its (few) counters are Pursuit weak. Houndoom being in NU makes things worse because ghosts can't even try and burn it. Then we have some decent checks that are destroyed by Sawk coverage moves, although this takes prediction.
    It's resistance to SR doesn't make it easy to take down with hazards. CB Emboar is neutral to it, it's significantly slower and takes recoil damage ending up killing itself after few hits, so I don't think a comparison between the two is fair.
     
  40. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Kinda dead and I'm obviously not a respected NU player, but I'd like to get into it some more. I think Sawk is worth a suspect, and I didn't think so until I tried to build a team today after not having a hand in NU for a while, the sheer amount Sawk (and Mushy tbh) influenced my team building process was staggering. The prevalence of Dark-types such as Skuntank and Houndoom (although Hound is good anyway) is almost completely due to Sawk and the fact that it makes Mushy an almost (although I would disagree that it's entirely so) needed Pokémon. I would say a Pokémon that wraps the tier around itself as Sawk does deserves at least a suspect discussion, and I'm sorry this post is devoid of content but Afro Smash said everything I could think of atm in post #95!
     
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