[GSC] Snorlax Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Alfalfa, Jun 7, 2013.

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Should Snorlax be Suspected?

  1. Yes, Too Broken.

    11.8%
  2. No, Not Broken.

    58.8%
  3. I feel Adamant about giving up Snorlax, but Suspect is a good idea.

    29.4%
  1. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    The King of GSC OU may be overcentralizing the metagame too much.
    BST: 160 HP/110 Atk/65 Def/65 SpAtk/110 SDef/30 Spd

    We all know that Snorlax is the King of GSC OU. However, he may just be too much king, as he literally has no counters.

    The problem: Snorlax is crazy amazing in GSC OU. So amazing that you need at least 2 checks to it, and there is no true counter to it. And Snorlax can put at least one of them to sleep with Lovely Kiss. His Curse set is nearly unstoppable, as only Skarmory can beat Fire Blastless variants, whereas Misdreavus only beats Earthquake variants. And again, Lovely Kiss is dangerous. And if Misdreavus pops up and tries to stop you with your Body Slam and Fire Blast, just punish it with Tyranitar. Skarmory tries to stop you with your Body Slam and Earthquake coverage? Punish it with Zapdos, Raikou, Charizard, etc.

    If Miltank or Umbreon tries to keep your attack low, just Belly Drum and sentence your opponent to hell. Destroy them, and continue Cursing.

    A phazer comes out? They cannot switch into Snorlax. Good luck with that.

    The point is, the amount of overcentralization Snorlax applies to GSC OU is not even funny anymore. Snorlax can literally do anything you want it to; you want Defense, Curse. Offense, Curse, Belly Drum. Tank, Curse.

    Just imagine the metagame without Snorlax: no more Snorlax wars, no more King of GSC. It is time to ban the Super-Genesect of GSC, the GSC god that pretty much fits in 99% of all playstyles.
     
  2. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm not the most knowledgeable on GSC OU (i.e. basically useless), but I've seen some statistics. When it sees 75% usage, you can tell it's overcentralising. If you take him out of the tier, it'll give people chance to actually think outside of the box. Hell, another Normal-type drummer may rise up from UU, like Ursaring for example. I can only see positives in removing Snorlax from the tier... with the exception of Snorlax's POV. The poor guy's never been so popular. :(
     
  3. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    No lies, I feel Lax is broken and, in an ideal world, wouldn't be OU today. However, a traditional suspect test is out of the question. GSC just doesn't have the player base to do something like that, and it's not like there haven't been 10+ years of seeing exactly what Snorlax can do. Furthermore, 1) maintaining stability of older gens is generally strongly favored over trying to balance them, and 2) old vets, who make up a large portion of the old-gen playerbase, generally resent on a more visceral level what is perceived as a particularly "ban-happy" nature of the current gen (myself included, for the most part).

    An old-gen tiering change is very difficult to get to happen for these reasons, and if it does happen (like the BP nerfs/Ingrain Smeargle ban in ADV, PO's banning of Sleep Trap in GSC, and the occasional RBY tournament that bans Wrap), it seems like it has to be "discovered" and considered a "cheap" tactic to get support, neither of which is a condition that Snorlax satisfies (he's been known about and abused successfully since forever, so he's not some recent "discovery", and he doesn't beat you in some sneaky way like most "cheap" tactics, he just straight-up smashes you). Alternatively, it seems like a change has to loosen restrictions that were half-hearted to begin with (see: the fairly recent HP Legend un-banning in GSC).

    While I do believe Snorlax is an exceptional case that ought to surmount opposition to old-gen tiering changes and be banned, the logistics of getting that to happen are just not feasible. As a result, I'm better off just accepting it and looking to challenge people to non-Lax side-metagame matches than I am looking for some "official" tier change.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  4. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    Stop trying ban Snorlax.
    Let discuss some real GSC points like Zapdos/Raikou Hidden Power and Celebi unban.
     
  5. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Those are also controversial issues. Not as controversial as Lax, but still a change that a sizeable number of people either disagree with or are ambivalent about. Personally, I'd say I lean toward disagreeing on the Celebi issue (it's like Snorlax in that it's so good there's no reason not to use it), and ambivalent on the HP Legend issue (I can see more things being viable without HP legends, but at the same time, the checks to HP legends are ubiquitous with or without the ban, so in terms of banning as little as possible, I like allowing it). In both cases, I favor stability and wouldn't support those changes to the current rules.

    I can see maybe with no Lax an HP Legend re-ban might spice things up more, but at the same time, if more than one tiering change were necessary for GSC, I would rather not anything be banned according to the "official" rules and instead just seek my own gimmick matches. I value stability very highly in old gens, but if it's just one simple ban like Snorlax that honestly should have happened long ago, I'd support it.

    EDIT: And yes I realize that "tradition" supports having Celebi legal and/or HP Legends banned. I'm not pushing for "tradition", though. I'm pushing for maintaining the old-gen status quo (a slightly different concept), with the exception of extreme circumstances of course.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  6. FrontierDarkness

    FrontierDarkness Da' Hell?

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    Snorlax needs a few counters for your team I feel that he is not to broken Snorlax has 2 sets that are really hard to stop first Curse and second belly drum curselax is almost impossible to beat once hes up to about 4 boosts unless you have an attack lowering pokemon like miltank or even better vaporeon with acid armor can stall him out. Belly Drum however straight away goes offensive by just one boost helping him to reach 999 this allows snorlax to sweep before a curelax gets a few curses up and to top it all of snorlax had lovely kiss and rest just make the opponent sleep and he can just belly drum and rest to get back his health gengar and skarmory are the only clear checks to it but he can just wore them down. Therefore I'd like to see how people make teams without snorlax :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Does it make sense if I find it overcentralising, but not broken? Sure, you have to include multiple plans to check it on your team, simply because of it's versatility, but in my experience, it isn't so hard to play around.
    Curselax always has checks and counters, no matter what coverage option it's running, so a properly constructed team will always be able to handle it. "But then it LKs and removes one of it's counters", sure, but then it's sacrificed coverage and is thus easier to handle once sleep has been used.
    Drumlax is theoretically almost impossible to stop, but in practice it is easily handled by maintaining offensive pressure. Remember, it has to come in (potentially taking a hit and spikes damage), drum (there goes half your HP), and then attack (Because of it's low speed, it'll be attacking second unless it's against a phazer. That means taking another hit). Sure this means teams that aren't as aggressive find greater trouble in handling this variant, but the fact that it fares better against a certain playstyle doesn't necessarily mean it's exceedingly overpowered.

    Sure Lax is incredibly versatile, and certainly a potent threat, but it is nonetheless easily neutralised- it can only use 4 moves after all. It seems to me like people are overawed by Lax's ability to fulfil a wide variety of roles to great effect, to the point where they forget that it can't do everything simultaneously. Every individual set has it's limitations and can therefore be handled without extreme difficulty.

    This talk of punishing switchins is greatly exaggerated imo. These counters are made out to be glaring weaknesses, that are only viable as responses to Lax, and that using them renders your team susceptible to being torn apart by other threats. That simply doesn't happen. In any event, the fact that Lax checks in turn have their own responses doesn't really mean much. The fact that with adequate support a strategy will prove effective doesn't necessarily constitute a problem.

    I certainly agree, based on the way tiers are done currently, snorlax is very easily ban-worthy. However, that doesn't really mean we should implement this mentality. It's only if, we decide that Snorlax's presence in the meta is a significant problem, that we should decide on doing anything about it. And, I don't see it as a problem. I'm completely fine with it. If it isn't broke don't fix it. That said, I do acknowledge it's impact on the meta. Although I don't think we should ban it, if that does somehow come to pass (As Jorgen said though, that won't happen), I wouldn't have much of an issue with it (Initially. It depends on how the meta changes).

    Basically, Lax is theoretically unstoppable, but in practice not hard to play around, so it isn't a huge problem, and so we shouldn't implement any changes
     
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  8. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Except Snorlax can run Curse with Belly Drum. Belly Drum is meant to muscle past Miltank and Umbreon.

    So a +6 defense Snorlax in countless matches is not a problem? A team with no phazers will get wrecked by that logic.

    And would it hurt to at least try the suspect round? There theoretically could be a lack of players, but something like a suspect can rally more people than expected. The worst that can happen is how people react to the result of the suspect.
     
  9. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Even if Snorlax was banned, you should still ALWAYS have a phazer on your team. The exception is if you're running something hyper-offensive, in which case Snorlax, or anything else, shouldn't get to +6 either way.

    What you're essentially saying here is "A bad team will get wrecked by that logic.".
     
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  10. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Good luck with Snorlax wars then. Snorlax vs. Snorlax, nothing can switch into either Snorlax after a Curse war.
     
  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Why on earth would you allow Lax to set up to +6 def? In what situation would allowing a Snorlax to set up to that extent be anything but really terrible play?

    I'll admit that I hadn't considered curse+drum on the same set, but that is a pretty rare set, and is still easy to play around- it has mono coverage (unless you forego rest), and it would prove difficult to set up both curse and drum outside of the matchup you described
     
  12. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    So where is the "Broken but No" option in the poll?
     
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  13. froggy25

    froggy25 Member

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    Snorlax is broken, but that is not the good question.

    The good question is : "Would GSC OU be better without Snorlax ?"
     
  14. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    There is really no point and going back to alter the tier, especially since its still playable.
     
  15. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    GSC Ubers is technically "playable", too. I think the only banned thing that, if allowed, would make the game literally unplayable would be some of the RBY glitch mons. More realistically, though, removing Sleep Clause from a tier like RBY makes for something close to unplayable by allowing a player to totally render his opponent unable to attack.

    OU is popular for more reasons than just being "playable", two of those being 1) the greater variety of viable Pokemon and strategies than Ubers, and 2) the aesthetic of playing with "normal" Pokemon as opposed to the Big Legends that any 8-year-old with a Master Ball could abuse. Snorlax has Big Legend-level domination over GSC OU, but of course doesn't have that legendary aesthetic so it's gotten a pass in spite of its real competitive effects.
     
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  16. borat

    borat Member

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    I'd rather ho-oh suspect.

    In any case, there's a lot of misinformed (uninformed?) new gen players. Sorry to be an elitist, but the arguments brought up reeks of low level play. Please refer to other thread on other site.

    But I'm definitely not against a suspect, although I don't think it'll change anything. Not to mention the who matters, and judging from the other thread, most of the players with the qualifications have no interest in participating in a snorlax suspect.
     
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  17. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    So let's unban Blaziken and Excadrill from BW2 OU. They are not legendaries.
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not nearly enough people who actually know enough to even seriously discuss GSC in general are on these forums to begin with, let alone to suspect anything(I'm definitely not one of them either). I mean I'm all for watching a discussion between borat, jorgen, a few of the RBY players here, and 4 or 5 other people who know the metagame, but this would be a waste of time anyway. GSC ladder is dead regardless, if you want to try a metagame without Snorlax just challenge someone or get a group of people together(Project GSC/GSC2k13? lol) and agree to not use it. Ever.

    You need to understand things were much different back then. They didn't have things like Smogon's infamous criteria in DP for something being broken or even forums like this, or at least when they did they had close to no people on it. In any generation before DP, how people viewed "broken" back then matters a hell of a lot because of this.
     
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    This is new-gen thinking. I mean, RBY Tauros has 83% ranked usage, but even its status as "best mon" is in dispute, let alone "Uber candidate".

    If we're going to suspect Snorlax, at least suspect it for the right reasons (too brainless and forces passive play as a Curser, too dangerous as a Drummer, and/or too versatile).
     
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  20. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    magic9mushroom, someone could also make the argument that Tauros has a semi-hard counter in Cloyster, whereas Snorlax's "counters" are situational, depending on Lax's moveset.
     
  21. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    If you wanna get ticky-tack about that, Amnesia Snorlax with Tbolt can smack Cloyster around in RBY.

    EDIT: Oh wait you were talking about counters to Tauros in RBY. Tbolt Tauros, then, makes Cloyster a "situational" counter in RBY just like Skarm became with Fblast Lax in GSC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
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  22. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    75% usage is understandable in a tier with only ~245 pokemon and only a handful which are usable
    83% usage is understandable in a tier with only 149 pokemon and only about 10 that are usable

    Any team with a good Phaser (Which all should have) should have no problem with Snorlax (if they are competent) although I voted it was broken due to some teams not having a phaser. Snorlax is the main reason to even carry a phasing moves in GSC though
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2013
  23. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I was not talking about RBY Snorlax. I was talking about RBY Tauros. RBY Snorlax is manageable. Just get back to the GSC discussion.
     
  24. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Replied in PM.
     
  25. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    What does having a spinner have to do with how broken Snorlax is? Why would Suicune necessitate a Phazer?
     
  26. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Go back to ADV, Calm Mind does not exist yet.
     
  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    And really, the reason every good team 100% needs a phazer has nothing to do with Snorlax and everything to do with Umbreon/Misdreavus. You can counter CurseLax without one.
     
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  28. M Dragon

    M Dragon Active Member

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    Ah, good question.
    And after playing and winning a couple of gsc no lax tourneys my answer is no, the metagame is much worse.
    There have been a lot of lax discussions in the past, and we know that lax IS gsc, but making a suspect of a big thing in an old metagame is not a good idea.

    Tbh I dont see a reason to make GSC lax a suspect, the metagame is fine as it is
     
  29. borat

    borat Member

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    I wouldn't say nothing. I would say having a phazer, like having a growler, a physical wall, etc etc "snorlax counter" has to do with snorlax as much as every other GSC threat that are countered by the same things.
     
  30. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Yes, but you can have Snorlax counters that aren't phazers and thus the existence of Snorlax does not, by itself, make non-phazing teams bad.

    No Phazer ==> Lose to TrapPass Umbreon.

    .'. Not Lose to TrapPass Umbreon ==> Have Phazer.

    No Phazer =//> Lose to CurseLax.

    .'. Not Lose to CurseLax =//> Have Phazer.
     
  31. borat

    borat Member

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    This part isn't true. If anything, collectively (between tvsian, gamefaqs, p2000, azura heights, pojo etc) there were MORE activity and pokemon discussions going on back then (2000-2003).
     
  32. Tiba

    Tiba The new Pokemon Professor

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    The metagame isnt fine as it is
    unban celebi or reban hp zapdos/raikou and you'll see a much better metagame
     
  33. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    Celebi is too good to not use. Like, you don't even have to think when teambuilding (even less than you already do!). Use Celebi, wall everything. Keep that out of OU.

    HP Legends maybe increases the variety of the metagame since the electrics right now are also basically too good not to use (the main thing is choosing between them), but despite the historical precedent it's such an unattractive ban. Banning move combinations like Sleep Trap is one thing since it's really the combo rather than the mons themselves that dumb down GSC, it's another thing entirely when you're literally just trying to nerf specific Pokemon with a weird moveset restriction like an HP Legend ban. In the latter case, you're coming awfully close to "let's allow Mewtwo, but cap his level at 80" territory.

    Honestly, if balancing GSC is the main concern, nixing Lax is probably the most sensible, simple rule change to make if a change were to be made. However that does leave Electrics even better than they already are, but even then they're not unstoppable like Snorlax or unbreakable like Celebi, they're just good enough on both offense and defense to be seriously annoying to deal with.
     
  34. James G

    James G New Member

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    Yes lax is broken in that it's easily the best pokemon in the tier, but banning lax from OU would be like banning Mewtwo from ubers; it's ridiculous. Over powered or not, people like using their lax's and one Snorlax to another Snorlax could be like 2 completely different pokemon to the game synergy, depending on their movesets, as mentioned above. Most teams remotely worth their weight can handle most lax sets pretty easily; the "broken" part imo only really comes in to play when the "Lovely Kiss variable is added into the mix: Suddenly you have an already dangerous pokemon that needs 2 solid checks able to take out 1 of its counters, if the set sacrifices rest for coverage a lax could theoretically take out an entire well made team on its own depending on whether that first counter it put to sleep is resistant to its move coverage or not, and THAT is the sucky part. With lovely kiss, using that lax to win or lose the game becomes simply a luck variable rather than a game of skill, unless you run some idiotic team with 4 or more lax counters, a lovely kiss lax always has the potential to leave you helpless. This is an issue with lax, though not unique; Lovely Kiss Nidoking is also horribly broken imo, even a well prepped team can be quickly put on the back foot by a nido with some lucky move guessing. I think the real issue that should be up for discussion is the PCNY moves, GSC was actually a better, more varied game before these came about; Surprisingly I don't think growtheons are quite as suspect as they actually destroy the horrible "awkwardly leave Blissey out to wall all specials" tactic, but Lovely Kiss on Lax and Nidoking I think need to be reviewed.
     
  35. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Couple of random factoids I think should be on the table:

    1) Snorlax's Double-Edge is the 3rd-strongest physical move in the game (behind Heracross's Megahorn and Marowak's Earthquake).
    2) The only unboosted attacks capable of 3HKOing Snorlax are the 3 moves listed above, Rhydon's Earthquake, and Fighting moves at least as strong as Nidoking's DynamicPunch. Of these, the only ones that reliably do so are Machamp's Cross Chop and Marowak's Earthquake.
     
  36. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    You see, Magic, when I see little numbers like that trotted out, I think "yeah, okay, that kinda explains why it's good, but so what? What makes it broken?" And to do that you really need to talk about the suspect on a higher level. Those numbers can be used to support some point, but stuff like "Excadrill 2HKOs Gliscor with Iron Head" isn't a point in itself, it needs to be made absolutely clear what that means.

    And James G I agree that LK is an annoying move on Lax, especially since you can't afford to really do anything about it (no Sleep Absorber that doesn't suck can safely switch in to take Lax's LK), but honestly I'd say most teams can even handle that very nicely. It forces you to run multiple Normal resists, but you were probably doing that anyway because of Snorlax, which suggests to me that the problem is in Snorlax itself, not what LK does to confound things.

    Also, no way is Nidoking broken. He's walled by so many mixed walls, you just have to be careful when teambuilding so you don't accidentally build a team weak to him, and even then you can play around him by hitting him hard with the many attacks Super-Effective against him. He can mess you up with prediction and luck, but you can do the same to him, really. Sorry to say this, James, (unless this is your whole point), but that kind of knee-jerk reaction is why most people are hesitant to look at ANY changes to old-gens. Once you acquiesce and allow for one change, you give credence to people shouting "Nidoking is borked!" or "Machamp is borked!" when really, they don't single-handedly shape the face of the game or anything, they're just effective attackers.
     
  37. James G

    James G New Member

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    Yeah I'm not seriously expecting a review on this but my point is imo there's more suspect issues than just Lax as a whole. The problem with this Nidoking is that it has to be something that's consciously catered for when designing a team, adding a sleep move (especially with something with that speed stat) means a 2nd check is needed (if the primary isn't a sleep talker). The net effect of all this is that a competitive team has to carry so many checks for for just lax and nido, the emphasis strays so far from agression just to stay alive against these guys. Anyway I'm straying off topic here, with regards to lax; I learned GSC when lax was banned and it really doesn't do anything to improve the game imo, Raikou just becomes the new king and then all that happens is you get Raikous aimlessly firing t.bolts into other Raikous and the game doesn't go anywhere. At least with Lax as king it doesn't completely wall itself like Raikou does and stuff actually dies, taking it out will only make the metagame even slower.
     
  38. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to make this post short and sweet, but I don't want to get in trouble so I will add some substance.

    1) Please don't fix something that isn't broken.
    2) Snorlax makes the metagame better, without Snorlax, I have played a large amount of no Snorlax battles, the metagame completely changes and is not nearly as fun. Literally it feels like every GSC team I have made makes a key issue of making sure I can kill Snorlax. That is what makes the meta fun, a well played Snorlax, is extremely challenging to kill.
    3) GSC is a very old metagame, Snorlax has not ever been banned before, is obviously the best pokemon in the meta, but why change it now.
    4) Judging from the poll everyone likes Snorlax in the meta.
    5) Snorlax is the best pokemon in the tier, and an argument can be made that it might be broken, but it is certainly not unkillable, and everyone uses it anyways. It has enough checkes that are seen on every team, everyone has a phazer for Curse Lax, offensive teams use Thunder on Raikou and such and pray for crits. Perish Trapping exists.

    Of course Snorlax is the best Pokemon in the tier, of course it is centralizing. However, I think we can all agree, those who have played GSC without Snorlax, that Snorlax makes the meta better.

    --

    Sorry if my 1-5 was pretty bad, and not a good argument, I just don't really know how to express that I disagree with the principle of banning Snorlax from GSC. :c
     
  39. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Sure. This is why I called them "factoids" - I only mentioned them because I noticed that they hadn't been stated at any point in the discussion.

    What they mean is pretty simple - Snorlax is the wall that breaks walls. Snorlax's STAB is powerful enough to force out most potential opponents in favour of extremely bulky Pokemon that also resist its STAB... which then, because they're so focused on bulk, have an exceedingly hard time hurting it back. Common answers to Snorlax are Tyranitar, Miltank, and Skarmory; none of these can actually defeat Snorlax, so they just sit there and passively phaze it out or PP-stall it. I suppose that this is the core of Snorlax's "brokenness"; if one thinks of GSC as trench warfare, Snorlax is a battle tank that can "go over the top" and take its trench with it.

    The question then, of course, is whether you want to play at trench warfare with or without tanks.
     
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