This thread will discuss what meat shielding is, when it is appropriate, and when you can be mafia banned for doing it. What is meat shielding? Meat shielding is the act of falsely claiming that you are a power role (ex. inspector, bodyguard, or hooker) in order to direct the night\day action of the mafia toward yourself rather than the actual power role. This is generally done when your role is less important than the role that you are claiming, such as villager. When should you meat shield? It is appropriate to meat shield when the power role you are claiming is in direct danger, when meat shielding will not cause confusion, and/or claiming bodyguard night one. Meat shielding, when done correctly, can help the village, or even win the game. Please note that mafia can claim whatever they want to cause confusion. These rules apply to meat shielding when you are sided with the village (or another team where meat shielding would be beneficial, such as in the clan war theme.) When should you not meat shield? The rule of thumb is that you should not meat shield when there is potential that it could cause confusion. Claiming bodyguard night one generally has no potential to cause confusion. However, claiming inspector night one may cause the bodyguard to protect the wrong person, or discourage the real inspector from claiming. The most common offense I see is in the Zelda theme. Citizens oftentimes claim Link night one, causing the bodyguard to protect the wrong person, resulting in the death of the real Link. Meat shielding under the wrong circumstances, despite good intentions, can and will result in punishment, especially if it harms your teams chances of winning. Please make sure that it is appropriate to meat shield before doing so. THERE IS NEVER ANY REASON TO CLAIM MAFIA AS A VILLAGER. DOING SO IS CONSIDERED TROLLING! YOU CAN BE BANNED FOR DOING SO! Note: I figure this should be in the mega guide, but I didn't want to wait for that to come out. Feel free to use this in the mega guide if desired, and delete this thread once the mega guide is finished.
Really great guide, should be added to the Megaguide. If you want, I can provide some advance meatshielding tactics too.
I disagree with meatshielding resulting in a mafia ban. That's mostly a case of bad play, not an action intentionally made to harm your own team. It's the same as voting at 4: in some cases it's bad play, but most players that do it are actually trying to play, not to harm their team. Banning someone for not being good in the game is the worst thing it could happen in Mafia Channel. There are lots of legit actions that could end harming your team's chances, but what should be considered is if the offender's goal is to do that.
The difference is, voting at 4 is not trolling, it's bad play, like you said. Claiming as Inspector as Villy, causing the real Inspector to die, despite not having the intent to do it, is trolling because it ruins the game for the Inspector.
I'd say it's often used to troll, but it's a legit strategy that can be used in absolutely any form of mafia game. Unless you ban absolutely any meatshield, regardless of the outcome, then I'm against it being bannable as a whole unless it's made clear the player tried to hurt its own team. Otherwise, it's merely a legit strategy being poorly executed, and banning people for that is basically punishing people for not knowing how to play.
From my experience as MA, people claim link to troll, then say it was meat shielding. I made this thread to link to offenders and to get rid of that excuse. This thread defines the rules about meat shielding that are currently in place.
I'm leaning towards Fegelein's side here but I am concerned about yet another category of punishment repelling potential players from coming, and we don't need more punishments, anyways. But themes like default/Zelda (I'm not sure what else) are basically follow-the-inspector and if you mess that up as village it does ruin the game for the Inspector (and a lot of players who do care about the game). Right now I do feel we should at least make this some kind of required reading, basically make people aware of it, so people will understand the consequences of meatshielding. Most experienced players already know how meatshielding can be dangerous, while this could be another part of what new players will learn when someone teaches them mafia I guess.
That's why I want it in the mega guide once it is completed. New players always get less or no punishment for offenses, so I don't think we need to worry. This thread is a guideline, each offense will be handled on a case by case basis, which is another reason not to worry. This thread is meant to improve quality of games by explaining when to use a strategy, and when it breaks the rules.
That's not too far off for the most part and I like to watch for that. Not all improper meatshielding goes directly to ban. A veteran player knows that claiming samurai or inspector isn't good though. It's negative to the village because of the possibility to get claims, which a mafia would do. Such a claim from a villager, which leads to the samurai/inspector getting killed, is a problem. Yes, the offender's goal should be taken into account. That said, if they know that it shouldn't be done, then some non-play time happens so they remember to not do it again. :x. I personally try to help new people so those types of mistakes don't happen. Yet if it's done on purpose, they know the consequences that will happen. "Meatshielding to try to protect your team is fine, but if you try to claim a role who's purpose is to claim to get protected (such as an inspector or samurai when there are no immediate threats), then that is more detrimental to the team than not meatshielding at all." If someone wants to fix this statement up a bit more, that's fine. A rough draft to go into rules, I'd say.
What actually make me worried is that meatshielding can be considered a risky tactic, so it's unfair to judge it by the outcome. Fegelein mentioned that it can be considered trolling because "it ruins the game for inspector when it cause their death", but IMO, whether the inspector dies or survives should not be what differentiates a banworthy meatshield and a legit one. From my point of view, what should be considered is what the player tried to achieve with that. Meatshielding while BG is alive is often used for strategical purposes (although with a bigger risk), so it's not fair to say a player that was simply trying a riskier tactic was trolling just because it didn't work as expected. Just to make it clear, I'm not against punishment for people who claim a PR to troll and then simply says they were meatshielding, but I already saw MAs saying ANY Link fake-claim in Zelda would be banned even if Koume was in the game, which made us unable to use a legit tactic for no logical reason at all.
The ultimate deciding factor should be communication with link. If link hasn't claimed, no harm will be done. If link has claimed, meat shielding should be treated the same way as team revealing. If mutual consent, then no punishment. If consent from the link is not given (or whatever PR), punishment should result, as it WILL cause confusion. This is in the case of the PR has claimed, and BG is alive. If BG is dead, it doesn't matter.
That's not how it sounds when an MA says "Absolutely any Link meatshield will be banned". Also, I disagree that consent should be given in a game that's known for being "informed minority vs uninformed majority". If you are part of the uninformed party, then having to ask that kind of consent just defeats the point of being uninformed. Also, this just feels like we are not allowed to use a legit strategy. I can tell you I already won a game by using the old "to trick your enemies, you must first trick your allies", but that way of looking at meatshielding is almost saying "you can be banned for trying a strategy if it doesn't work as you expected". If it comes to this, it would be better to ban any meatshielding regarding of intention or outcome.
"Absolutely any Link meatshield will be banned". I am against this statement. If the samurai or inspector claim and kefka or another daykiller is alive then by all means meatshield to death. If the real person claims and then you claim you are potentially saving the villages chances of winning. If there is no way for the samurai/inspector to die if they are bged and then you decide to meat shield that is hurting your teams chances of winning. If a poisoner is in play that is a rough line but I would understand the potential for meat shielding and that should be taken on a case to case basis.
It depends though, I've seen a lot of plays where a villy claims inspector but the inspector doesn't immediately speak up. The villager is able to contact PRs and maybe act as a forced voice for the inspector. During the night the inspector can inspect the villy who claimed and possibly connect PRs :o Anyways, as many things in mafia goes, cases like these should always be reviewed thoroughly. It's really difficult to tell if a player is trying to make a big play, or just plain trolling.
Just gonna say that I made that statement in a game where there was no koume at a time when people kept doing it. It was to prevent a mass banning, which was very possible. I like to think that I sufficiently revised that statement by making this thread. The rules have been defined, beast approves. Most of all, This is a guideline. Each offense is a handled on a case by case basis. This conversation is now over.
What roles should you look for when determining if your meatshield is valid: 1. Is there a priority killer, such as Kefka or Ninjask around? 2. Is there a Votekiller, such as Kronos or Kuja around? 2.5. In other words: Does the Mafia currently control the vote but there is still chance for the Village to win if a certain key role stays alive? 3. Is there a Poisoner around without a safeguarder? 4. Is there an enemy daykiller around that is able to kill the key role, such as Sephiroth or Salamence? 5. Is there an enemy curser/converter around that is able to target the key role and there is no safeguarder in the game, such as Nergal or Maglev? 6. Is the BG dead and the key role you are meatshielding still unknown? If you answered "Yes" to any of those questions, your meatshield is a valid one. If you answered "No" to all of them, then you shouldn't be meatshielding as the key role is able to safely claim. If you are unsure of the theme, the best thing to do is not meatshield at all since it is a more advanced technique that, when executed poorly, can cost your team the game.
This is essentially the best way to check. You should also add: 7. If you die, will it harm your teams chances of winning? If answered yes, they shouldn't. Such as a BG meatshielding an inspector, would be stupid and let the insp die, thus harming the chance of the village winning.
Every meatshield ever Spoiler (20:23:53) Roy Mustang: bodyguard (20:23:53) Hyde: villy claim (20:23:53) Hobbes2: shit (20:23:53) Sebastian Hummel: bg here (20:23:53) Epikhairz0603: Inspector here (20:23:53) Fynecian: Ffs, villy. (20:23:53) SomberKingSombra: millager (20:23:53) Cobra: hi Le Mini Cat ._. (20:23:53) Arte: villy (20:23:54) Sebastian Hummel: see I claimed my role, pay up (20:23:58) RohanTheReal: vilyl hhere (20:24:00) Hobbes2: Well, i'm the Bodyguard :/ (20:24:02) Rigor Mortis: guess what? (20:24:03) Roy Mustang: I claimed my role first (20:24:04) Sebastian Hummel: no I am (20:24:04) Sebastian Hummel: :/ (20:24:07) Hobbes2: 10$ here i come (20:24:08) caddy: no me (20:24:08) Roy Mustang: I'm the real BG (20:24:09) Rigor Mortis: i'm im (20:24:09) Hobbes2: screw the game # (20:24:11) Rigor Mortis: gimme 10 bucks nao (20:24:11) Sebastian Hummel: protect Epikhairz0603 (20:24:13) Sebastian Hummel: / (20:24:15) Hobbes2: so legit (20:24:19) Hobbes2: i dont even try the fake commands (20:24:20) caddy: //kill arte (20:24:21) *************************************************************************************** (20:24:21) Times Up! : (20:24:21) ±Kill: Sebastian Hummel (Miller) died! (20:24:21) ±Kill: SomberKingSombra (Miller) died! (20:24:21) ±Kill: Arte (Villager) died! (20:24:21) ±Kill: Cobra (Bodyguard) died! (20:24:21) *************************************************************************************** [/HIDE]
While it is not fully finished, I feel the channel would benefit greatly from having this information up. I hit all the major themes at least. THEME THREAT LIST ***For the purpose of this guide, it is assumed the player determining if meatshielding is acceptable is a Villager-like role (Villager or Miller). Each theme is broken down into roles that pose a threat to a key Power Role. If any role on the numbered list is present in the theme, meatshielding is fine. However, if none of them are in game, you are NOT allowed to meatshield as a village role as this is harming your teams progress on connection and information collection. If you ever have any doubt whether you can meatshield a Primary PR, take the easy way and don't do it. It is not worth getting in trouble for. Spoiler Code (text): Default: (Villager) In game of 23 players or less: Never meatshield Inspector In games of 24 players or more: Never meatshield Samurai. Never meatshield Inspector or Spy as Samurai takes precedent Body: (Stem Cell) Never meatshield Heart Avoid meatshielding Brain as it can divert protection away from Heart Capcom: (Player) Ryu, Zero 1. Dr. Wily 2. Sigma 3. Gen In games of 24 players or less 1. Juri In games of 27 players or more 1. Seth Ryu, Zero post-transformation 1. Akuma Zero post-transformation only 1. Gouken Castle: No roles require meatshielding Caterpie: (Metapod) If you are Metapod: Able to meatshield any other role if desired Chinchous: (Finneon) ??? Clanwar: No roles fit the requirement of being a Villager-like role to meatshield in the first place. Death Note: No roles require meatshielding Dethy: No roles require meatshielding Eclipse: (Villager) Never meatshield Hyugi Lilacia, Horace 1. Skoll 2. Leviathan 3. Eclipse Horace only 1. Korinze Elements: (Hydrogen) Nitrogen, Carbon: 1. Plutonium In games under 20 players: 2. Mercury 3. Lead Fire Emblem (FE): (Soldier) Ike, Roy, Soren 1. Nergal 2. Ashnard 3. Demon King/Prince Lyon Soren only 1. Limstella Final Fantasy (FF): (Moogle) Cloud, Locke 1. Kefka 2. Kuja 3. Sephiroth 4. Ultimecia Locke only 1. Yunalesca Fantasy: (???) ??? Fruit: (Banana) Kiwi, Watermelon 1. Fish Kiwi Only: 1. Rotten Tomato History: (Random Bystander) ??? Hoenn: Sceptile, Lunatone 1. Salamence 2. Altaria 3. Flygon 4. Ninjask 5. Crawdaunt Lunatone only 1. Dusclops KH: (Spirit) Sora 1. Xehanort 2. Vanitas 3. Darkside 4. Namine 5. Diz Kirby: (Sleep Kirby) Never meatshield Mike Kirby Never meatshield Crash Kirby Lyncher: No roles require meatshielding Marvel: (Citizen) Spiderman, Professor Xavier In games under 11 players: All Mafia-sided roles pose a threat to both, so meatshielding is acceptable. In games over 11 players: 1. Bastion 2. Deadpool 3. Dr. Doom 4. Shuma-Gorath 5. Stardust Professor Xavier only 1. Dark Phoenix Medieval: (Commoner) All Mafia-sided roles pose a threat, so meatshielding is acceptable. Minesweeper: No roles require meatshielding Mythology: (Demigod) Athena, Achilles 1. Kronos 2. Hades 3. (Empowered) Phoebe 4. (Empowered) Prometheus Apollo 1. Kronos 2. (Empowered) Prometheus Ocean: (Fish) Never meatshield Clownfish Never meatshield Swordfish PokeScum: No roles fit the requirement of being a Villager-like role to meatshield in the first place. Presents: No roles require meatshielding Ragnarok: (Novice) Mage, Sage, Wizard, Monk, Crusader, Knight 1. Valkyrie/Valk Randgris 2. Thanatos Mage, Wizard only 1. Mistress SSBB: (Mario) Captain Falcon, Lucas, Snake 1. Meta Knight 2. Kirby 3. King Dedede Lucas, Snake only 1. Ice Climbers Space: (Asteroid) ??? Space Invaders: No roles require meatshielding Survivors: No roles require meatshielding Transport: (Commuter) Mail Truck, Squad Car 1. Stealth Jet 2. Teleporter 3. Hijacker 4. Cargo Ship 5. Battleship Vanilla: No roles require meatshielding Vengeful: No roles require meatshielding War: (???) ??? Weapons: No roles fit the requirement of being a Villager-like role to meatshield in the first place. (Warriors dying cause the side to lose) Windows: (Paint) ??? Zelda: (Citizen) Link, Zelda 1. Koume Zelda only 1. Kotake
That must have taken a lot of time but when all is said and done it will just be "lol bg here p/rotect hobbes"
Well, if you consider that fact that losing any member of the village hurts it... then yes. But on a broader scale, the point is is that some meatshielding is better than others.
Reading Fuzzy's list just make me more saddened regarding this issue. We are getting to a point that basically says "Don't meatshield unless it's painfully obvious the PR won't die", which basically defeats the whole purpose. I mean, restricting meatshields in Caterpie? There's not even a BG that can get confused there. You should never meatshield Crash? Kirby has 2 roles that could get revealed and require protection, but rarely there will be enough BG for both, and yet you can never meatshield as Crash? This list just enforces my previous point. Meatshield is not an allowed strategy anymore, because you can get banned if it doesn't work as you intended, and you are even forced to know 110% of a theme to know if you can use it. Forcing players to memorize this list will not help making Mafia Channel a better place.
Anything not in the OP should not be taken as a guideline regarding meatshielding. That list is not in the OP, so meatshielding is not being restricted in that case. Generally, the only time meatshielding will result in a ban is in zelda or similar themes. 90% of the time when a village sided role claims link, they are trolling (especially when they are impa or zelda!). Oftentimes all meatshielding in zelda does is cause Impa to protect the wrong person. If the PR has claimed and is not in danger of dying, no meatshielding should occur. It's just common sense.
Meatshielding is a tactic specially meant to confuse, but then you can get banned for confusing people. How's that common sense? I keep my point: Ban any meatshielding, or none of them.
It's a theme threat list. People always want to know "Who claims in X?" The problem is, my intention and your interpretation are on different levels. The whole idea is that, for example, in FF if there is a Kefka, Kuja, and Sephiroth, meatshielding Locke is totally acceptable. If those 3 roles are dead, there is no reason to meatshield Locke. This is assuming Village is still at full strength at that period in time (BGs and Safeguarders alive). Furthermore, for Caterpie, Metapod is the closest Village role that would be able to meatshield without hurting the team as much as someone else. Metapod even has a 40% chance to evade kills. If a caterpie meatshields butterfree, it puts the team at a more detrimental state than if a metapod died. And as for Crash Kirby, my opinion is to never meatshield a revealing samurai. In addition, Mike kirby is there. By fake claiming, there's a chance either Crash or Mike will waste their action on you. You'd be better off staying quiet and hope the mafia picks on you for being quiet. I initially had a section for "after certain events transpire" but I felt it was too complex for the list and made it that much more confusing. If you don't like my list, tough shit. I'll be using it to help determine more accurately determine when someone is trolling and when someone is being helpful.
The thing is that that list is 1) using a personal point of view regarding some tactics (like the Crash example you replied) and 2) only considering optimal play. It basically gives no space for people to try stuff because of the possibility of being banned if they fail. It's simply restricting mind games in a game that's pratically ruled by mind games. I find the whole "if you don't know, don't meatshield" argument quite weak, as it disencourages learning by trying and verifying the outcome. Mafia is already not an easy game to learn, adding those kind of restrictions won't help anything.
And if I don't put that, everyone is going to meatshield Link just to troll and then claim they didn't know.
When Roy PMd me in the server, he said it was quite easy to detect when someone didn't know and when someone was trolling. If that's the case, then just let people meatshield regardless of how bad of a move it was, and just ban people who was trolling regardless of the excuse used. Simply that.
As someone who fakeclaims and meatshields on a regular basis, I have no problem with it as long as it's done in an intelligent manner. There is a clear difference between someone who is genuinely trying to take a hit for a PR and someone who is a villager trying to get a PR killed. There are some themes/roles where it's a really bad idea to claim, yes, but everything should be taken on a case-by-case basis and blanket statements on what to claim and what not to claim are detrimental to players developing strategies on the fly; common sense goes a long way.
Everything in this guide seems okay to me, except this part: This bug me a lot. I know the reason behind this is the PRs expending actions on you, but i don't think for example claiming Vayne Solidor like Moogle, or claiming Disgruntled Soldier like Soldier is harmful at all. Also, there are a chance the PR was going to use its action on you anyway, even if you didn't fakeclaim mafia. In short, i don't see it like Trolling, just a guy joking maybe. It seems to me Mafia is becoming sort of Soviet Russia, all serious and i don't like it. :|