[BW2] Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D Suspect?

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, May 15, 2013.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I have decided that it might be in the best interest of the tier to consider voting on whether to keep or ban Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D. They are only members of Monopsychic and no other types. From my experience in the tier, Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D have an extremely easy time getting up hazards due to their speed/bulk respectively and the lack of distribution of rapid spinners. Not to mention that the defense form needs Super-Effective Choiced Stab to even make a dent in it. The few decent spinners in Monotype, such as Forretress, are easily destroyed by HP Fire (which both forms can use, and DO use quite effectively). The only other counter would be Magic Bounce, who's distribution is limited to just Psychic and Flying.

    A lot of people may say that these "hazards" are underpowered, but in fact it is just the opposite. Spikes and Stealth Rocks severely limit switching, a very important aspect of Monotype. Being able to switch out from threats into counters is very important, especially so in Monotype when teams often only have one counter. While hazards do limit this, they are not nearly as easily set up for other Monotype teams, let alone for a single Pokemon, to set up.

    Killing Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D with choice moves isn't really an option either. Wobbuffet is able to simply come in, tank a hit and Counter/Mirror Coat, and then kill another Pokemon with Custap Destiny Bond.

    These two Pokemon are clearly broken in my opinion due to their near effortless and mindless team support, but I am curious about the opinions of other Monotypers. Are the two remaining Deoxys forms broken or okay to stay?
     
  2. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I'm a bit undecided about deoxyes, becos i don't have much experience with them, i have seen few Deox in my battles, like 3 i think. Specially, I remember in a tour final my opponent used a Trick room team with Deo-S lead at great effect, the hazards which he put manage him some OHKOs (and i lost lol)

    I'm prone for the ban, specially after the Lati@s unban, but let's wait for more experienced opinions first :3
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  3. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    I would say it's best to go one at a time, but then probably nothing would happen. :P
    I dunno, I've never seen either in action anytime. The only Psychic team I've used was Trick Room.

    My main problem with Deo-S and Deo-D, going from OU when they were still allowed, was that they rarely ever did anything after setting up hazards and usually left you fighting a 6-5 battle. Sure, Spikes and Stealth Rock can help make up the difference, but I dunno just how much it's worth it.
    Sadly I have no other experience to go on, so...I'm with Rawr in this on needing more experienced opinions, except my initial opinion is leave alone.
     
  4. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    From what I've personally experienced on the ladder and in tours over months, this is exactly what happens. Latios, Latias, Victini, and so on are able to spam their attacks with very little to fear due to the opponent being weakened by guaranteed hazards. I would not be for banning them if it weren't that they get up hazards without fail every time. If it required something besides mindless button clicking I would say differently, but that's all it really is. It takes no prediction to use and has no absolute counters to it. Deoxys-S or Deoxys-D dying on early isn't failing their roles; their roles are to lay as many hazards as possible to prepare a sweep for the other five Pokemon and get out of the way.
     
  5. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Honestly I have never seen a Deoxys-D on the ladder that I can remember, so I can only speak from experience for Deo-S. However, I find it to be incredibly overwhelming, as it is the perfect lead, and in a tier without wifi clause, beating the other leads plays be a huge part in deciding the outcome of the match. It can get SR and a layer of spikes up almost guaranteed, and with such powerful team members (Lati@s, Victini, Jirachi, etc) it turns 2 and 3hkos into 1 and 2hkos. I'll keep testing, but I am leaning towards ban at the moment.
     
  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Since the conversation has died down a bit I figured that I would bump this with a question. Does anybody think it would be worthy of being voted on/suspected? If I get 4-5 people asking for a vote/suspect with sound reasoning I'll do so.
     
  7. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    My final thought about Deoxs is: Suspect Deoxys-S and leave alone Deoxys-D.

    - Like sulcata and Roku said, and we all know, Deo-S is like the perfect suicide lead with a sash, and can prevent opponent leads to fullfill their jobs with the fastest taunt in the game (except pranksters), so in a offensive metagame like Monotype the dual hazards of Deo-S and his speed can prove deadly.
    -Other history for Deo-D, due to his average speed he is prone to be taunted, tricked a choice item and can be used like setup fodder for sweeper (sword dance, quiver dance, dragon dance, etc), so i think i can stay.
     
  8. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    I feel Deo-S should definitely be suspected. It outspeeds fast scarfed pokemon (Genesect is a common lead matchup), has decent attacking stats and importantly provides a perfect lead pretty much guaranteed to get two layers of hazards up while posing an offensive threat. Deo-D I'm not really concerned about, I think it's fine.
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Deoxys-S really needs to go IMO. It can almost always get at least 2 layers of hazards down, and for teams with no spinner (MonoFlying, MonoDragon, MonoElectric, MonoGhost, MonoDark) it can make it so much harder.

    Deoxys-D's OK - it wasn't broken in OU, it's not broken in Monotype. It's much slower, and so much more liable to Taunt. Its low HP also offsets those amazing defensive stats.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  10. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    I think everything was pretty much said about Deo-S and I agree in that it needs to be gone. I can recall only a limited amount of battles against Deo-D, but with max speed it can outspeed some of the taunters it wouldn't outspeed otherwise and face it: 304 HP and 356 defenses is actually already very solid bulk, and Deo-D can force switches and set up more hazards or shorten the opponent's life span with Seismic Toss/HP Fire. I would suggest having a vote for both forms--they weren't banned in OU for nothing. (Oh, and yes, they were - at least it's what the wiki says, so don't blame me if I'm wrong!)
     
  11. Angelic.

    Angelic. Banned

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    Broken? Ehhhhh. I personally think that if you consider these consider the Frosslass+Golurk combo. Frosslass is faster than most giving it an incredibly fast taunt. Spikes that can't be spun, focus sash guarantees at least 2 layers of spikes then proceed to send in Golurk to set up rock and boom. Ghost types can proceed to fire away attacks at ~75% HP pokes. It's just like Psychic. Shadow Tag Chandy is one of the best revenge killers in the game. If this is going to be suspected consider suspecting that combo. Keep in mind Deo-S is frail and only takes two hits. Anyone facing a Deo-S lead should always attack first. Deo-D is a different story. Bulk and recovery and a guaranteed 100 damage move. Survives plenty longer than 2 hits (more often than not). Comes in on multiple occasions and can continue setting hazards.

    Imo, leave them both. They make sweeping significantly easier for other Psychics but so do Frosslass and Golurk. Deo-S Also puts a team at an instant 6-5 disadvantage. It can go both ways. Sure they're a pain in the ass but it's something you need to know how to handle. Just like Genesect. The only way Deo-S gets up over 2 layers is if you misplay it. Keep them both.
     
  12. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    There are a few things I'd like to outline about MonoGhost and MonoPsychic:
    - Deo-S is guaranteed to get both Stealth Rock and Spikes up unless the opponent has priority, while Golurk and Froslass both have to contribute to that in a MonoGhost. Also Froslass is significantly slower than Deo-S so it can get one layer of Spikes only if the opponent doesn't dumbly misplay, not to mention Golurk - you're assuming it's either sooo bulky or soooo fast it's guaranteed to get them up. Deo-D, in contrast, can even live long to continuously set up hazards in case they're spun away.
    - When facing a MonoGhost it is impossible to spin hazards away. A MonoPsychic will just stop you from doing that by maintaining offensive pressure, which is especially easy now they have the Lati twins combined with their old variety of diverse threats which can be quite hard to switch into.
    - If MonoGhost has ST Chandelure to play with it probably means it's a pretty awful mono without what they have. Guess what - it is, honestly.
    - MonoGhost also finds it harder to both keep momentum and patch up their few weaknesses, as they're usually not the fastest and only have 2 Ghost/Dark types which can resist the 2 weaknesses they have.

    For those going tl;dr: MonoGhost is one of the rather worse types so I don't see any point in weakening Ghosts, neither have they ever been a particular problem for me. Deo-S HO Psychic teams have, however, which is why I think Deo-S should be banned, while Deo-D is debatable, but probably also ban-worthy, as it's not as fast but very bulky, which makes up for it.
     
  13. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    "A is most broken than B" is a bad reasoning for a suspect discussion. If u think Froslass is broken u could post a thread about her.

    (by the way, 252 HP Deoxys-S isn't so frail at all, specially with his 90/90 defenses)
     
  14. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I've been seeing people seeming to lean towards that we need to make a decision, as such a voting thread will be made shortly.
     
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