[BW2] Murkrow + Regenerator Testban Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LC' started by fitzy, May 9, 2013.

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  1. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Following the recent Mienfoo testban discussion we are going to go ahead with a testban of Murkrow + Regenerator and allowing Mienfoo back into the tier. These changes will be up on the ladder asap.

    Only once you have tested a reasonable amount give your opinion on what you think on the changes. Please state this clearly and with reasons.

    Suspect discussion rules apply.
     
  2. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Just something I'd like to ask: If no clear verdict is reached, will LC revert to the status quo or make this the new default?
     
  3. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Im all for the regen ban. We have all the benefits we got from banning mienfoo, plus a versatility fighting type(taunt, knock off u turn to sout) and grass types will get a lot more diversity.
    Cause, before, foongus had regen, which won out in the abilities sector
    Despite several grass types having better defensive stats regen neutered that so foongus won out again
    some had typing which wasnt weak to psychic or resisted ground(pure grass) but that advantage was still outweighed by regenerator.
    Also foongus has spore which give its the movepool advantage.

    Now if we ban it....
    Things like oddish have better stats across the board so that adds diversity.
    There are things with better abilitys, shroomish has poison heal which an be used reliably if natu rises in usage(which i think it will if murkrow is banned), and budew has natural cure which gives it a niche in countering chinchou better than other grass types because it wont care about burns from scald which are otherwise pretty crippling to a walling ability.
    Now having those resistances isnt outweighed by getting a third of your hp back on the switchout
    Also, the other spore users arent complety outclassed now.
    Also, scarfed bulba is cool

    Anyways... Murkrow is a real issue. It kills fast and frail things which would otherwise have niches as scarfers or whatever, shell smashers also suffer. It also neuters psychic and ghost types that dont have a foolproof sash or one of the best stat totals in LC. Also, sub and roost can abuse outrages from dragon types, sleeptalk from anything (which is only used by chinchou because it can take on murkrow if one turn is lost due to resistance)
    Also, LOKrow knocks out everything in two hits. Sure, some other things do that too, but other things dont have priority, great typing and 19 speed.

    It's a perfect offensive machine, speed, priority, movepool, typing(takes hits from other offensive nineteen speeders like missy and abra pretty easily)

    So i vote Ban Murkrow
    And Ban Regenerator

    EDIT: Mienfoo is back on the ladder but so is regen. All the mienfoos i see have it.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
  4. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    yeah idk why trakyan is already making his decision when the test ban hasn't even taken effect yet :P
    but right now mienfoo is allowed again and so is mukrow.
     
  5. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    i was calling for a regen ban as soon as the meinfoo suspect came up. And i've seen murkrows effects and a pre foongus meta.
     
  6. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    Name 2 things that aren't 2HKO'd by standard Life Orb Murkrow, after SR. I can only think of Shieldon and Bronzor (Nosepass, maybe?), the first one has little to no usage, while the latter is setup bait for some of the biggest threats in the tier. Not to mention that Prankster Murkrow also ruins other viable strategies like Trick Room or Sun/Rain.
     
  7. KarkatVantas

    KarkatVantas New Member

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    I've laddered to about #15 and I've seen porygons and misdreavous on every team. After all these bans there's nothing really good to use and no real stratedgys to try. Everyone just throws together whatever is good and hasn't been banned yet and calls it a team. The metagame was much more fun and diverse when everything was unbanned.
     
  8. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    TR and Rain/Sun isn't as viable as you think it is.. not in this metagame. J/S

    Edit: Really, how could Rain be viable when what really fucks it up is Chinchou/Snover, and with eviolite it helps pokemon tank hits that would usually hit hard. If anything rain was more viable 4th gen than it is right now.

    Also name what sets up on Nosepass and Shieldon. Tbh most of the set up threats in the tier have been banned.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2013
  9. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    [Brief]A_17
    Both playstyles would be much more viable with Murkrow locked in LC Ubers. J/S.
     
  10. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    actually murkrow is one of the best whether setters in the tier, surpassed only by auto whether
     
  11. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    True.

    But it is also by far the best weather/trick room counter.
     
  12. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Without regenerator, Slowpoke is basically useless, and pokemon like Mienfoo and Timburr can have their way with the tier. Regenerator shouldn't be banned on account that most of the usable pokemon who have it are basically rendered useless without it (Ex: Slowpoke, Foongus, Mienfoo (to a certain extent). I have nothing to say about Murkrow, because while incredibly powerful it is, it is extremely broke.

    Don't Ban Regenerator.

    Don't care about Murkrow.
     
  13. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Dude even before the unbans I'm pretty sure TR wasn't used at all. I also want to ask someone who actually played in the HGSS meta (I kinda did, but don't remember as much) how viable TR was. I know Rain Dance was a pretty big deal, but in this meta it's more defensive and Rain/Sun doesn't fit in as much unless you have a permanent weather setter.
     
  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    In HG/SS Trick Room was a very effective strategy if you used it well. It took some getting used to using but it was incredibly powerful once you got good at it thanks to things like Cubone being unhindered by Eviolite. Other weathers were strong, but could be countered relatively easily by strong play and a decent team. Either way that's not the point of this thread.

    Misdreavus' usage seems to have Skyrocketed since this ban started, with a current 55% ranked. This was something I assumed would happen as if you remove two points of a triangle you've got one free point that can do what it wants, near unopposed. I've been very busy with exams so I haven't got a chance to play much yet, but next week I'll get to some proper testing. Hopefully.
     
  15. KarkatVantas

    KarkatVantas New Member

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    I haven't seen anybody use the other grass types at all. It's added absolutely zero diversity in my experience. Nobody complained about Slowpoke and Foongus being too powerful or overcentralizing so I have no idea why we are having this regen ban to drag them down instead of Mienfoo. All those grass types were perfectly usable and did different things than what Foongus did. Nobody is even using Regeneratorless Mienfoo that much either.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    this sums up exactly what i'm thinking. it's Mienfoo that should go, not Regenerator, there's literally no reason to ban Regenerator when it only contributes, in part, to "breaking" one single pokemon in the whole tier while multiple others are fine with it. Don't ban Regenerator.

    I'll offer my thoughts on Murkrow later.
     
  17. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    The tier is overcentralizing now (Missy, Abra, and Timburr are top 3 rofl) and still will be even without Mienfoo. There will always be a top 3 in LC which means overcentralizing will always occur and you cannot do anything about it. The tier is dead and isn't diversified. You can't even check to see if it's diversified because almost nobody ladders in it.

    If you go on the server people complain a lot that LC is boring now, or LC is fucked up. This is what happens when you ban so many things, you close up the usable things in the metagame and it is a turn off to people.

    ArteEdit:

    There was a point where the only reason things were banned was because of overcentralization (Sand and Mienfoo) and now we are banning regen for some reason that I don't get, All I'm really trying to do is prove in LC overcentralization it's pretty hard to avoid. I'm not saying unban everything so the tier can be fun, I'm saying quit banning stuff because you are making the tier dead. The meta was balanced when sand was unbanned and Scraggy was unbanned. Mienfoo, bulky fighting, ScarfKrow checked it, Feather Dance Krow, Shelmet, Foongus to an extent checked Scraggy, anything with clear smog, anything that is above 15 speed with a super effective move scarf. Sand was mainly banned because of the argument of overcentralization.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  18. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    In summary, all the "fun" stuff was banned.The blanket Regenerator ban in particular seems like overdoing it a bit.
     
  19. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well yeah, LC became shit as soon as Meditite and Carvanha were banned. Everything after that was pretty much a "okay guys, let's give this a chance because the tier's not fun anymore" kind of gesture. As seen in the past couple of months with so many retests and suspect threads.
     
  20. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Can we please have a vote on this regenerator ban before the tier actually dies.
     
  21. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I'm goin gto have to say that i'm with arte on this one, and as for another note, i think sand should be allowed again sans sand rush
     
  22. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So

    (00:59) fitzyhbbe: not sure we'd get anywhere
    (00:59) fitzyhbbe: but want to talk lc?
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: No, I'm not sure we would get anywhere
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: lol
    (01:00) fitzyhbbe: ::x
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: But if you have a specific topic
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: Sure
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: or, discussion point
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: w/e
    (01:01) fitzyhbbe: I was thinking about yanma
    (01:01) Toph Bei Fong: I did that
    (01:01) Toph Bei Fong: A couple months ago
    (01:01) Toph Bei Fong: It did not end well for Yanma
    (01:02) Toph Bei Fong: that thing is pretty rediculous tbh
    (01:02) Toph Bei Fong: and Carvanha is arguably worse anyway
    (01:05) fitzyhbbe: Krow Gligar, Scraggy, sand veil banned
    (01:05) fitzyhbbe: idk
    (01:07) Toph Bei Fong: Nor do I it's really annoying
    (01:08) fitzyhbbe: Also idk how you feel about berry juice
    (01:09) Toph Bei Fong: Honestly I have no opinion on it
    (01:09) Toph Bei Fong: It'd make Dwebble better :DDD
    (01:09) Toph Bei Fong: I really don't think it's broken though
    (01:09) Toph Bei Fong: Oh and Recycle Bronzor
    (01:09) Toph Bei Fong: gets better
    (01:09) Toph Bei Fong: or anything with recycle
    (01:09) fitzyhbbe: juice was banned in a meta a whole lot more offensive
    (01:10) Toph Bei Fong: mmhm
    (01:10) fitzyhbbe: instead of evio everything
    (01:12) Toph Bei Fong: So I was thinking on Carvanha but then
    (01:12) Toph Bei Fong: 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Carvanha (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Mienfoo (Neutral): 79% - 91% (19 - 22 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    (01:12) Toph Bei Fong: That did more than I thought it would
    (01:12) Toph Bei Fong: I am too lazy to do special EVs
    (01:14) fitzyhbbe: it is a fucker
    (01:14) fitzyhbbe: 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Carvanha (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers lvl 5 Porygon (Neutral): 80% - 92% (21 - 24 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    (01:15) Toph Bei Fong: Tbh I think Carvanha would not be that bad
    (01:15) Toph Bei Fong: Also that's a lefties Pory
    (01:15) fitzyhbbe: o
    (01:15) fitzyhbbe: 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Carvanha (+SAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252HP/252SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Porygon (+SpDef): 38% - 57% (10 - 15 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 20% chance to 2HKO.
    (01:16) Toph Bei Fong: Given that
    (01:16) fitzyhbbe: possible 2hko on best wall in tier
    (01:16) Toph Bei Fong: 80% accurate
    (01:16) Toph Bei Fong: 20% of 64%
    (01:16) Toph Bei Fong: Is pretty low chance tbh
    (01:16) Toph Bei Fong: Bit higher with rocks
    (01:19) Toph Bei Fong: Hmm
    (01:19) fitzyhbbe: If only gligar didn't get buffed this gen :X
    (01:19) Toph Bei Fong: Lol
    (01:19) Toph Bei Fong: Yeah
    (01:20) Toph Bei Fong: 252SpAtk Life Orb lvl 5 Yanma (+SAtk) Bug Buzz vs 252HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Porygon (Neutral): 38% - 57% (10 - 15 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 20% chance to 2HKO.
    (01:20) Toph Bei Fong: Yanma is kinda weaker but
    (01:20) Toph Bei Fong: it's also more reliable
    (01:20) fitzyhbbe: the annoying thing about yanma
    (01:20) Toph Bei Fong: bulkier
    (01:20) fitzyhbbe: fucking hypnosis
    (01:20) Toph Bei Fong: Lol yeah
    (01:21) Toph Bei Fong: Hypnosis is my least favourite move
    (01:21) Toph Bei Fong: no matter if it hits or not
    (01:21) Toph Bei Fong: somebody feels dicked over
    (01:21) fitzyhbbe: It wouldn't solve the problem really
    (01:22) fitzyhbbe: but unbanning both then tier banning speed boost
    (01:22) Toph Bei Fong: Then
    (01:22) fitzyhbbe: allows two non flatout pokes in
    (01:22) Toph Bei Fong: Vulpix
    (01:23) Toph Bei Fong: So Speed Boost, Drought, Sand Stream
    (01:23) Toph Bei Fong: Ability bans
    (01:23) Toph Bei Fong: and Moody
    (01:23) Toph Bei Fong: but w/e
    (01:23) fitzyhbbe: I don't like fucking with vulpix
    (01:24) Toph Bei Fong: Tempted to say Brock did
    (01:24) Toph Bei Fong: Shouldn't
    (01:24) Toph Bei Fong: Nor do I tbh
    (01:24) Toph Bei Fong: Sun is op as fuck
    (01:26) Toph Bei Fong: and people don't seem to notice ^-^
    (01:26) fitzyhbbe: ok
    (01:27) Toph Bei Fong: It's annoying because
    (01:27) Toph Bei Fong: Nothing is more borderline broken than these 3 things in LC
    (01:28) fitzyhbbe: idk if yanma got a chance on po lc
    (01:28) fitzyhbbe: Smogon banned it from the start
    (01:29) Toph Bei Fong: It did not
    (01:29) Toph Bei Fong: As in
    (01:29) Toph Bei Fong: did not get a chance
    (01:32) Toph Bei Fong: But
    (01:32) Toph Bei Fong: Given that it does as much as Carv's Hydro Pump
    (01:33) Toph Bei Fong: with Bug Buzz
    (01:33) Toph Bei Fong: n
    (01:34) fitzyhbbe: Ok
    (01:34) fitzyhbbe: Best plan I can think of then is: regen back, speed boost back, mienfoo gone, sb'ers back, berry juice back
    (01:35) fitzyhbbe: *sb gone
    (01:35) Toph Bei Fong: All at the same time?
    (01:35) Toph Bei Fong: Sounds hype as fuck
    (01:35) fitzyhbbe: its not too much
    (01:35) Toph Bei Fong: I'd go with that tbh
    (01:36) Toph Bei Fong: Although
    (01:36) Toph Bei Fong: Is Murkrow is still very powerful
    (01:36) Toph Bei Fong: and it beats both of the new introductions
    (01:36) Toph Bei Fong: pretty well
    (01:36) fitzyhbbe: Err
    (01:37) fitzyhbbe: idk about krow
    (01:39) Toph Bei Fong: So
    (01:39) Toph Bei Fong: It's obviously known for 2koing everything
    (01:39) Toph Bei Fong: and having no counter
    (01:39) Toph Bei Fong: and none of the things in that list help or hinder it
    (01:39) fitzyhbbe: berry juice allows you to counter it ironically
    (01:40) Toph Bei Fong: I would not say so
    (01:40) Toph Bei Fong: Unless you have
    (01:40) Toph Bei Fong: Sturdy Magnemite or sumth
    (01:40) fitzyhbbe: I don't think anyone would be happy to have the bird back
    (01:40) Toph Bei Fong: Soo
    (01:41) Toph Bei Fong: Murk out, B.Juice in, Carv and Yanma in, Speed Boost out, Mienfoo out
    (01:41) Toph Bei Fong: regen in
    (01:41) fitzyhbbe: ya
    (01:42) Toph Bei Fong: Ok
    (01:42) Toph Bei Fong: I will go with this
    (01:42) Toph Bei Fong: It sounds like it could work. But then agian it's LC
    (01:42) Toph Bei Fong: Gen 5 LC*
    (01:42) fitzyhbbe: eviolite fucked everything up
    (01:42) Toph Bei Fong: It did
    (01:43) Toph Bei Fong: and thanks to it I can't even play HGSS LC well anymore
    (01:43) Toph Bei Fong: Mad about that
    (01:43) fitzyhbbe: custap wynaut
    (01:43) fitzyhbbe: the key
    (01:43) Toph Bei Fong: But anyway. You wanna make the thread once again? (Tomorrow or something)
    (01:43) Toph Bei Fong: Or I guess
    (01:43) Toph Bei Fong: 10th of June
    (01:43) Toph Bei Fong: after suspect month ends
    (01:44) Toph Bei Fong: Or we could just cut it early
    (01:44) Toph Bei Fong: Not like anyone would really care
    (01:44) fitzyhbbe: I don't think people will mind about it not being a month
    (01:44) fitzyhbbe: I'll post, but it'll be after I wake up tommorow
    (01:44) fitzyhbbe: probably mid afternoon
    (01:45) Toph Bei Fong: Sounds good
    (01:45) Toph Bei Fong: Now what do you know
    (01:45) Toph Bei Fong: we did get somewhere :)[/HIDE]

    So pretty much for as this suspect test is concerned, what we plan atm is Mienfoo out, Regen back in, Murkrow probably out.

    This is based off the feedback we've got from people playing the tier but regen ban doesn't really change anything. The tier just warps back around the same pokemon with fighting types getting better once again. As a result of this we think it'd be better if Mienfoo is just banned.

    Murkrow being in the tier is really up for debate at the moment. No-one in this thread has weighed in on it yet but I can't help but feel most people want it gone.

    Again, this is not set in stone so if people want to argue well enough against this then please go ahead.

    Finally please try to not discuss the other changes from the log above. This discussion should mainly be about Krow, Mienfoo and regen.
     
  23. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I'm going to go play LoL so i don't just post mad mage stuff. when i'm level headed I'll post my stance on what we should
     
  24. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Murkrow - Banned

    If you have a pokemon with no real check in a metagame, you have no choice but to ban it. The only decent check is Bronzor (who takes some damage from LO Heat Wave), but Bronzor's usage is at (8.71 %), while Murkrow was around 35-45%( i don't recall).

    Regen - Unbanned
    The tier has so many fighting pokemon that taking away the ability of the best two fighting checks is just outright stupid. Slowpoke and Foongus are the only two pokemon that use regen (not counting Mienfoo), and both have solid checks and counters.
     
  25. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    I'd say keep Murkrow, Mienfoo and Regenerator to be honest, I really enjoyed LC with them all in it. But I'll see what better LC players have to say.
     
  26. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    LO Murkrow kills itself, in order to kill a whole team Murkrow's prediciton has to be precise every move. Also Stealth Rock cripples it a lot and that set has no recovery. Lastly it is so frail that moves like fake out from a Mienfoo or gunk hurt it badly.

    Honestly there aren't that many good fighting types, Mankey is really frail considering the only set it can run effectively is choice scarf. Machop's only good set is scarf as well and it's not even fast enough. Bulky Machop, if it even exist, is outclassed by Timburr due to it's better bulk.

    The only good fighting types are Mienfoo, Croagunk, and Timburr (And Scraggy, but it's not allowed). The rest of them shouldn't be used as much as the once I mentioned.
     
  27. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Fighting types control the meta and unbanning mienfoo makes the meta focus on one type. Mienfoo has already risen to extreme usage since it's unbanning. While Slowpoke and Foongus are checks, the most popular mienfoo set is the knock off set, which basically signs the death certificate for both Slowpoke and Foongus. Ban Mienfoo, if a pokemon has 50% usage, you know it's broken.
     
  28. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    By using your logic Misdreavus almost reached 50%, should we ban that aswell?
     
  29. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    The thing about Misdreavus is it's simply the best ghost on offer and most teams want a ghost. I don't think its high level of usage can be called overcentralising because the tier isn't adjusting around it, it's just the best option for a single slot for most teams.

    I don't think its high level of usage is comparable to Mienfoo, who was simply the Genesect of its tier (and frankly, even more effective in its tier)

    I still find it hard to decide on Murkrow. I think overall I'm pro-ban as its sheer power and versatility force teams to adjust significantly to it and even then there's nothing that really handles it very well.

    My positions are, unban Regenerator, reban Mienfoo, ban Murkrow. And I don't think we should be bothering to suspect Misdreavus - there's nothing broken or overcentralising about it, it's just common. I look forward to hopefully seeing Yanma and Carvanha in the tier, they will make things more exciting probably.
     
  30. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Why are all of you treating Little Cup like a tier?

    It's a metagame, meaning half of LC is shit that shouldn't even be touched. This is why the tier is being revolved by 3 pokemon (Murkrow, Missy, Mienfoo). Banning Mienfoo isn't the problem do this solution for the "perfect" LC metagame and tbf you can't come close if you are seeking a centralized LC metagame. Remove Murkrow and Mienfoo, Misdreavus will go up to the 60 and 70 percent. After that the whole tier will revolve around Misdreavus and we will be forced to ban it. The 3 Ms are gone now people will comment on how the meta will now be diverse, but then they find out that there are another top 3 that LC is being revolved around, next we do suspect discussion and ban more stuff.
     
  31. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I've been avoiding this for as long as i've been avoiding getting a new champ, but on the plus side i did go 9/1/5 with zac in mid against a tf, so it's not a total loss


    Anyways Arte is right, we're not just a tier. we're the entirety of a metagame. If people in UU decide they don't likke a certain pokemon because it's over-centralizing they can always ban it and they'll have 100+ pokemon to work with still, but we only have a few decent pokemon to work with. in fact we probably only have about as much as OU does right now.

    One of the defineing points that we've had for the unbans and various new bans right now is that we're not smogon, so we don't have to follow what they are because our community is different. While that is a very valid point for other tiers that have more effective and viable strategies to run we have a very limited pool of viable strategies and we've completely banned one of them. another thing about the current metagame is that it's mostly jut generic bulky offense with a set equation: plug in a stealth rocker, plug in 4 attackers with eviolite, then finish with a scarfer. and plenty of teams don't even have scarfers. what I'm trying to say is that there's not much room for our metagame to be much different than smogon, and back when we first had the unbans i used my smogon and PO teams interchangeably and regardless of where i put them they performed just as well and faced similar competition even. this is a major indicator that as supposed to the main tiers, our communities don't have a diverse enough material to have different metagames based on the innovation of the individual players. now i'm not saying keep our metagames exactly the same, but if it's not broke don't fix it, even if it does seem mundane.


    i highly reccommend we at least reinstate sand into the metagame. and if we add anymore scraggy and meditite. meditite is not so scary that we should just surrender whenever we see it, just ask elmo what happens when he tried to use meditite on me. we could even forgo sand and add gligar, but i'm pretty sure gligar had enough presence sans sand so...
    at the very least, even though it's mundane the big three should stay

    edit: or we could just return to the metagame we had before the unbans i liked that one alot :D
     
  32. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    But even if we do bring back Sand, Yanma, Gligar, and Meditite, we all know how it's going to start and end. The meta will become focused around those 4, and we will just end up banning them and coming back here with the same over centralized meta we're dealing with right now. Even if unbanning everything will make the meta more popular, what happens when we start banning everything all over again? But hopefully we can unban Carvanah and Yanma :), considering both are as frail as a turkey sandwich.


    Here are the changes I suggest:
    Ban: Murk, Mienfoo
    Unban: Regen, Speed Boosters
     
  33. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    What should happen is unban everything up to the point where we just started banning things due to overcentralization because it doesn't exist in Little Cup. When we banned Gligar and Meditite we were balanced, and then we started trying to centralize LC. That's where it has went down hill, and now your making it worse by closing the space in the meta making shitty pokemon shitter, decent pokemon bad, good pokemon decent, etc etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Speed boosters are broken. Why would you want to unban them with the ability? Carvanha is just a nice wallbreaker without the boost in speed every turn anyway, and Yanma only really has Hypnosis. It only 2HKOs Porygon with both rolls of max damage, not even that bad.

    Anyway, I agree with Arte. Funny how the tier was really nice right before kokoloko got nuked by Coyotte508 and then turned to a mess. If anything, I'd go back to right after Gligar's ban and maybe ban speed boost and let those two back in, but otherwise everything else was fine. Murkrow can check Scraggy, Misdreavus is a full stop to Mienfoo, and there are plenty of pokemon that can still work with all the pokemon mentioned in the tier.

    Honestly, this is starting to get to the point where if I was leading LU and suddenly said "you know, water types are being overshadowed by Slowking and Nidoqueen is basically a glue that can overshadow other special attackers. Let's ban them both to promote diversity!" A few pokemon in any metagame are going to centralize it around themselves. It's inevitable.

    Centralization is a good thing. It's like DP NU: it had a few centralizing factors(triple electrics, Hail was a big one) yet anything could work. You knew you had to prepare for certain huge threats that could sweep at moment's notice to prepare for and that made you be creative with different sets, which in turn made the tier a blast to play.

    If something really is broken in a tier, you'll know. Because you'll try everything to be able to beat that pokemon while making your team fit to compete against "normal" teams(teams without said pokemon) and it will get steamrolled by that pokemon alone every time you make a change.

    Mienfoo definitely cannot do that.
     
  35. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    here,here. and as for over-centralization, i believe my point of view will have to change. people will use what they like, if they like to win, they'll use mienfoo. if they don't like mienfoo they should find another way of winning, it's not like mienfoo blocks off all paths to victory against non foo teams
     
  36. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    Could we please give this nonsense up as a bad job and unban the fun stuff?

    As for everthing before the Mienfoo ban, it might be worth a try ^^
     
  37. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    [Brief]A_17
    Keep Murkrow away from LC
     
  38. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    by getting rid of murkrow we must either
    a) ban missy and mienfo in subsequent attempts to balance out the big three and hoe that the new big 3 aren't as overbearing.
    or
    b) unban sand in order to offer new checks to missy and mienfoo
     
  39. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Right now, I think the problem is that too many people want too many things from the tier. Some people want the "fun," which is a terribly subjective thing. Some people want a tier where everything has a at least one counter and a shitton of checks, even if it means that the tier is extremely stale. Some people want a tier where there aren't things at 50+ percent, which may or may not be possible.

    Honestly, these three things are basically irreconcilable. Especially, when people all have differing agendas. The only real way to solve this is for either a messy vote / discussion which just ends with 2/3 of the people being upset about something, or for the leaders to make an executive decision about the future of the tier. I don't want to sound like a minimod (not like people aren't already doing it), but there is no way that this will end without someone being upset, and I'd just like to see it happen without taking 3 months of people posting shit.
     
  40. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    We don't have to ban Missy. It's not as versatile as Mienfoo and has more checks than Murkrow. Unbanning sand is okay with me, as long as we keep sand veil and sand rush banned just like in OU. As Xdevo said above, unbanning the "fun stuff" is a horrible idea. Drizzle + Swift Swim is "fun", does that mean the leaders of OU should unban it?
     
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