What makes a theme great?

Discussion in 'Mafia' started by SteelEdges, Apr 29, 2013.

Moderators: Pamitha, Water
  1. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    59
    Everyone - QC or not - has their standards for what makes a theme in their eyes. In this thread, I'd like for us to have a calm, civil discussion based on your response to this question: What makes a Mafia theme great?
     
  2. Hey Day

    Hey Day Argumentum ad ignorantium

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    I touched on this in the Vepix thread, but basically I think a great theme:

    1. Is balanced.
    2. Is original.
    3. Has good synergy among roles.
    4. Is fun.
    5. Is a medium length.
    6. Is based on strategy rather than luck.
     
  3. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    53
    PO Trainer Name:
    Fegelein
    You've got to have balance, you've got to have strategy, and you've got to make it fun. If you fail to have 1 of these things, then your theme will likely not be successful.

    Other important factors are cool, innovative roles, a nice flavour, many possible outcomes, and a new experience. These certainly get you brownie points in my book.
     
  4. Nainil

    Nainil The International of PO

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    1
    1. Although it is fine for a theme to be based off of another theme, it must be UNIQUE. We don't like some role that's already been brought up.
    2. WE DON'T CARE ABOUT FLAVOR. Although it is nice, it shouldn't be the selling point of a theme. See point 1.
    3. Synergy and BALANCE, especially in small games. A lot of people balance for larger games and rarely get to that amount. Balance small ones, and people will like it more.
    4. Strategy>Luck, should be fun, etc etc.
     
  5. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Zzyzx Road
    Let us start with two basic pillars of the Mafia games and thus the themes of them:

    1. Every player ought to have approximately the same chance of winning;
    2. The games are supposed to be fun.

    Continuing from that, we have other factors such as Mafia themes needing to be virtually alike common Mafia games: different factions or alliances fighting for both survival and elimination of other players.

    So we have from three to forty players (if I recall, our record player count was 43 sometime in 2012) and, at any count respecting these numbers, all sides are supposed to have a chance of winning that varies over the teams' ability to power through inconvenience (bad luck included).

    That said, it's not all about the players handling trouble. The themes need some basic understandability and some exigence of thought - every team having a lot of kills isn't the solution for underpoweredness, nor is adding kills to the side in question a way to balance the teams.

    Another thing is the information > luck constant. Some themes are made with so much hax (and the aforementioned exaggerated amount of kills) and a lack of roleblocking/inspecting/watching (reli)ability. Some games are supposed to make you think, so I guess when themes center around serious play, focus should hold on to information, oft limited, and how the players should act upon learning things (impasses are something I love to see in Mafia, but rarely do).

    In general, it's much easier to say what makes a theme bad than what makes it good. So I can sum it all up:

    1. "Killfest": the theme has so many kills it becomes confusing and random;
    This is often caused by people that try to balance two powers in a theme by empowering the weaker one.
    2. "Haxfest";
    This is most frequently caused by a high hax percentage of a spy role or, even more often, by hax given to villagers.
    3. "PR tornado": the roles have too many actions or too many roles have actions;
    Happens a lot, too. If a side lacks information or raw power, the author tends to boost it up, and to avoid making a killfest they focus on other powers. This makes certain themes a mess and the vanilla roles practically useless, as well as making team size more influential than quality or power, especially on lynch phases.
    4. Day spam: too many standby-based actions, making the game log huge and confusing;
    It doesn't matter what is said against: standby abilities ARE the strongest. Using more and more of them to impede the former ones isn't a way to go.
    5. "Vanilla sux": lack of unpowerful roles;
    "Villy is boring", "shitizen" and "i h8 villys" are common messages in Mafia-related PO channels. OK, so because people do not like being vanilla the game (and the respective team) doesn't need them? False. Townies are utterly important for games to be balanced, avoid the excess problems mentioned in 1, 3 and 4 and to have the power roles really take advantage of their supposedly higher amount of power.
    6. Slowness: themes that lack dynamic
    This may seem contradictory when I have just said too many actions is a bad thing, but it's not: if balance must exist in game, there has to be some balance in the making of phase. The slowness problem can be avoided without generating the excess problems by shifting certain roles from side to side: instead of giving or taking power, making a side slightly stronger at the cost of knowledge/number may be a way to make two factions different and therefore increase the dynamic of a game.

    These are just a few. Specific theme problems are variable and not uncommon, but I can't think of many that aren't rooted in the ones above.

    As for making the theme good, it's probably just a matter of making it fun to play (and readable, please. Reminds me: use spellcheckers if you are unsure of your English skills!).

    BUT PLEASE, MAKE IT FUN FOR EVERYONE - DON'T SACRIFICE ENTERTAINMENT FOR FAIRNESS. (again, villager isn't a synonym of useless)
     
  6. Roy Mustang

    Roy Mustang HOMOSEXUAL UNICORN

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2011
    Messages:
    786
    Likes Received:
    23
    PO Trainer Name:
    Roy Mustang
    I don't have much to add that hasn't already been side beside the fact that how easy the roles can be understood and the number of a roles in a theme greatly impact how enjoyable a theme is. If a theme has confusing/similar role names, too large a number of roles, or role names the same/similar as other themes it can be very difficult to follow, ruining the entertainment value completely. Also, I think a theme that has strategy tips (eg. Hint: you and your teammates do not share a kill) are much easier to play, and makes it a lot easier for players new/unfamiliar to/with the theme.
     
  7. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    1,168
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hobbes2
    Zzyzx hits the nail on the coffin (this coffin has the souls of the villagers who died on 3/13/12. Never forget)

    You want to keep the game fun but balanced at the same time, while all the time making the game strategic. If you can do that, the theme will be great.
     
  8. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    Most people beat me to my points (example: Nainil touched upon my pet peeve to have small games relatively balanced) however, one thing that I don't like is when people compensate for a bunch of kills with more actions.

    If you have a lot of night kills (lets use 6 for example), the way to fix it is NOT adding a bunch of Bodyguards, Distractors, Spies, etc. The way to fix it is to reduce the amount of kills. If at any point a village needs a double bodyguard, there might be one too many PRs that are important to the game, which typically leads to imbalanced themes. It is much easier to fix balance issues by starting at the foundation of the theme instead of trying to balance all the mafias to keep up with a strong village. By balancing top down instead of bottom up, you create too much going on and it is pretty much my biggest reason for declines.


    So, to rephrase it to fit the title:
    What makes a good theme? When you balances sides from the bottom up and disrupt the foundation to balance as there is a higher chance of success.
     
  9. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    237
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    Most themes have the potential to be good. Except it depends on the players playing.

    Right now the best theme which requires the most strategy imo, is Dethy.
     
  10. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fun in the sun.

    Complicated themes that are hard to learn are great once you learn them, but easy to grasp, logic related themes like Dethy are the best.

    The winning and the fun are the 2 most important things IMO.
     
  11. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Short answer: Players like it.

    Long answer:
    Games have absolutely no value without players. A mafia theme could be perfectly balanced, original and full of innovative roles, but if no one wants to play it, then it has no value.
    As to what can make people like a theme or not:

    -Balance: It's fine and all, but it's by no means the most important factor. Lots of themes have their unbalances, but players don't actually mind unless it's really game-breaking. And by this, I mean REALLY game-breaking, if it's just OP like MDA or Black Knight (roles with a ridiculously high win rate for solo roles) people will not care as much as most people think. In fact, players will be glad when they take down such roles.

    -Encourages Strategy: Here's a term I hate when used in Mafia. Mafia is not a strategy game. Strategy games require long term planning based on information, which simply doesn't happen in Mafia (at least on Server Mafia, which is what we are talking about here). Mafia is all about taking down the strongest opponent as fast as possible. It's a game about finding information, which means you rarely will have much information, so the possibilities of long term planning based on strategy are simply too limited.

    Mafia requires skill, but strategy (a type of skill) is hardly more than 20% of the game. And if we are talking about gaming skills, the most basic of them is making decisions. Great themes will allow players to actually make their own decisions, and those should impact the outcome of the game. As a game designer I don't remember the name now said, "a game is set of interesting choices". Allow players to feel the consequences of their choices and they will understand the game gives you different ways of playing.

    -Feeling of Awesomeness: There's nothing better in Mafia than doing something awesome and bragging about it. Themes that creates more opportunities for players to make something they feel it's awesome tend to be well liked. See the above point.

    -Interactions: Here's a factor I noticed no one mentioned in this thread yet. Mafia is a game meant to be played by several players at once. The most important factor for absolutely any multiplayer game is to help players build deeper relationships. A good theme will encourage players to talk to each other before, during and after the game, be it about the game or just random jokes relevants to the situation. When those situations occur, players are more likely to like a game.
     
Moderators: Pamitha, Water