[BW2] Banning Genesect

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by Bamarah, Apr 18, 2013.

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  1. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    Being that Genesect is banned from both OU tiers (Wifi & NP) I think it should also be banned from Monotype as it's nothing more than an Uber Pokémon now. No point keeping an Uber around for the sake of "balancing" every Steel mono around. Just my 2 cents... please discuss.
     
  2. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Just saying, OU wouldn't exactly be the deciding factor for Monotype :/
    If it's not breaking MonoBug or MonoSteel, I don't see why it would be a problem. The real question is: Is it breaking MonoBug or Steel?

    I can't say much on this given that I haven't played Monobug, or indeed any Mono, for probably at least a year, but I dunno. I've never seen Genesect as that much of a problem. I've only ever used the Scarf set, though.
    Perhaps it might be the best Pokemon on a MonoBug or Steel (though I find that doubtful myself), but neither of them are a problem even with Genesect around from what I've heard...then again all I hear is on these forums.
     
  3. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I can think of quite a few things broken in Monotype (Deoxys-S has been on my radar for quite a while), but Genesect never made that list.

    I would also like to clarify this now before I get into the post, Monotype has never followed OU tiering, nor will it ever in the foreseeable (this doesn't mean we can't still suspect things banned in OU). Simply because something is broken in OU, (Thundurus-I, Garchomp pre-unban, Excadrill) doesn't mean it's broken in Monotype. The opposite is also true in the case of almost every weather inducer (barring Abomasnow and Tyranitar).

    Also, if I recall correctly, Genesect was never banned from No Preview OU. I have seen it quite frequently in tours.

    Genesect isn't broken in Monotype for a wide variety of reasons. One of the most prominent is how offensive this tier is. Genesect's main threats aren't defensive, but offensive, and in a tier as offense oriented as Monotype (some teams running as many as three scarfs) Genesect will be put under as much pressure as it's dealing out.

    Monofire has plenty of fast pokemon such as Victini which can outspeed and smash Genesect to oblivion.

    Monoghost has Chandelure and a Golurk/Jellicent core that can deal with scarf Genesect (the most common).

    Water has multiple electric immunities which makes Genesect quite difficult to use without incredible prediction.

    Electric can trap Scarf Genesect with Magnezone or cripple the rock polish set with Thundurus's twave.

    Ice can even deal with it using Pokemon such as Regice and Mamoswine (Thick Fat). This case specifically I would like to note. Although Regice is never used in the standard OU setting, it is a very potent member on almost any Monoice team and can tank just about any Special Attack, not even taking half from a +1 Flamethrower.

    Many people might know me as the "steel user" and say this invalidates my opinion, however I have used many other successful teams (Trick Room Ghost, Electric, Fighting, Ice Stall, Ground, Dragon, Dark), and I never once had any more difficulty dealing with Genesect than some other top tier threats like Terrakion.

    The list goes on. The only types that have trouble with it are generally not very good to begin with. Genesect gives Monograss almost no chance, but so does Volcarona. Should we ban Volcarona as well? To compare Monotype and OU is not a very accurate comparison and Genesect's presence in Monotype is also a very different situation. As to what you said about balancing, there's nothing wrong with it if it doesn't break the types it belongs to. Chandelure is banned from No Preview OU but not Monotype and it functions quite similarly. But in general, the Pokemon of those types have such trouble forming a team that Chandelure balances out the type overall. In my opinion Genesect is not broken.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2013
  4. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    When i started playing monotype, i truly thought Genesect was broken, i typoed lot of comments about ban him. Now i have changed my mind:

    Fire: fire is fire, genesect is dead etc.

    Ground: My favorite mono, they have quagsire and gastrodon to stop him coldly (no one runs energy ball thanks to god). Mamos can revenge kill too, nidoqueen/king can tank an ice beam and OHKO with flamethrower.

    Ghost: chandy to trap him, jellicent can stall him to death (gene don't receive dat +1 spe.attack of him), also i usually run Scarfed mismagius with HP fire, so to OHKO unexpected Genesects (a fire attack in ur leader is so useful in monotype :3)

    Normal: Blobs and Porygon-2 stall all day long.

    Steel: Heatran and fire proof bronzong.

    Psychic: Gene can be a problem, but good revenge killers are scarfed victini and latios. Too, psychics run Trick room a lot, so Gene is outspeed.

    Dragon: 1 of the most genesect-weak monos, although now they have Kyu-B so a good answer again him; later there is chesto rest kingdra settuping on genesect and finally revenge scarfed latios.

    Flying: other mono which have problems with Gene, usually need good prediction to bring down gene.

    Dark: never tried but it seems they can have problems too.


    So in short, the only monos which could have problems are Flying, Grass or Dark, but at all i don't think Genesect is broken.
     
  5. Xinc

    Xinc Time for Oras?

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    Please remember that NP and OU are totally different from Monotype. The same rules do not always apply. Being said, Genesect has many counters .Rawr! mentioned. I'll add some once I think of them.
     
  6. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Flying monotypes have Scarf Mence (Fire Blast or Fire Fang) and Dragonite who can survive unboosted (and even boosted iirc) Ice Beams from full health and retaliate with Fire Punch. Flying monotypes also have Pokemon such as Gyarados, Moltres, and Gliscor who have neutrality or immunity to at least part of the BoltBeam combo, which means that prediction is required from both sides.
     
  7. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Prediction's always a bad road to go down in discussions. I personally find Genesect OK in Monotype, for the reasons already outlined.
     
  8. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    My point was that it doesn't just absolutely sweep through Flying teams with Ice Beam/Thunderbolt, it's a mindgame from both sides (admittedly Genesect does have the advantage).
     
  9. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I'd just like to point out that if Gene gets up a RP then it's pretty much gg for Flying, especially if there's a Download boost.
     
  10. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Yeah, but as stated above, you will seriously struggle with a Grass mono if Volcarona starts QD'ing. Certain things just nuke the mono of it, like that example.
     
  11. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    I will say a few words about my experiences with Genesect. Take note that most of these observations were from a long time ago, some parts even during while Blaziken was allowed. The set was Timid Scarf Flamethrower/TBolt/Ice Beam/Bug Buzz on a MonoBug.

    One of the main reasons I never really saw Genesect as a real problem was because, half the time, it wasn't actually as hard a hitter as several of the other Pokemon I was using. There were plenty Pokemon it couldn't OHKO that could almost inevitably KO it in return; one particularly infuriating memory I have was against a Stallrein where it dealt around 33%. I never had godly prediction skills, or even all that good prediction skills, and that really hurt as well; Genesect is something that NEEDS prediction to work well. That 99 Speed was also very troublesome, allowing it to be revenged by quite a few troublesome Pokemon like Scarf Zapdos or Staraptor, neither of whom a MonoBug has safe switchins against--indeed, against Zapdos, Genesect is one of the most useful Pokemon available, and it even struggles then to OHKO with Ice Beam. It being locked into a move was a great detriment too. Though it's certainly easier to lock your Pokemon into a single move in Monotype, given that you pretty much know what type your opponent's Pokemon have after seeing about 2 of their Pokemon, there are still times when no matter which move you lock yourself into, you'll give a safe switchin to your opponent. MonoFighting would be a good example of this: Bug Buzz is stupid; Flamethrower would have to deal with Keldeo, Terrakion, and oftentimes Infernape; Ice Beam would let Keldeo, Infernape, and Lucario to come in, Tbolt was usually your best bet but could still run up against the occasional Breloom; and none of those moves would OHKO your targets, almost all of whom had enough firepower to OHKO right back.

    Overall, it never seemed too strong to me. I don't know how much has changed for it at this time, but still. It's only ever been strong, but almost never overbearing.
     
  12. gbatemper

    gbatemper New Member

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    Some people run Psychic on Genesect, it wrecks all the fighting once scrafty and gallade is out.
     
  13. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I don't see the point of mentioning this, I'm about the only one who runs Psychic Genesect in my experience. Only other time I remember is one of my friends imitating it a long time ago. Scarf Terrakion and Keldeo can still take a huge chunk off Genesect allowing priority to revenge it (which is everywhere on Fighting teams). Sash Breloom can put Genesect to sleep and set up all over it. Hitmonlee can use the Unburden Fake Out set to destroy Genesect with Hi Jump Kick. And preventing Fighting from getting swept by Scarf Psychic is one of Scrafty and Gallade's main roles, if a player decides to treat them as dispensable against non-Psychic teams, that's bad planning on their part.
     
  14. gbatemper

    gbatemper New Member

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  15. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Not really, Scizor is #1 in OU yet the entire metagame doesn't revolve around it. The most used monotype can only be expected to have the most members in the top 10. Last month or two it's been bug and before that it was fighting iirc. The ladder fluctuates and usage isn't a great measure of brokeness. Besides, this thread is a Gensect thread, not a Steel nerfing thread.
     
  16. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Sulcata is obviously the reason Steel-types are so high.

    Seriously speaking, though they all share the trait of being Steel-type, take another look at them. Those Pokemon aren't ONLY good in MonoSteel; when building a Mono, a good half the time you want to stick in a Steel, no matter which type you've picked. If you look a bit more, you'll notice that of the top 10 4 of them are Bug-types, including the 2 top-Steels, and I can personally attest that Genesect and Scizor are indispensable when building a MonoBug.
    For Skarmory, the same goes; if you're using a MonoFlying, that guy's probably one of your best Pokemon available, though I have no personal experience in this regard.
    Then Jirachi in Psychic, and Heatran in Steel. Even assuming MonoSteel needs a nerf (really doesn't IMO), the fact of the matter is, Steel-types are used because they're good, not because they break MonoSteel.
     
  17. VarunRi

    VarunRi Member

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    Genesect is not broken. It's definitely a top threat, but having it in your team has never guaranteed me victory with MonoSteel, even though I use a solid Genesect/Scizor/Ferrothorn/Skarmory/Heatran/Empoleon team. It's always a collective team effort. I'd definitely fail without any of them (except Empoleon which I guess is overrated). Genesect is not even the MVP of the team; it's Skarmory.

    I haven't played with Bug monotype, but played against it so I can safely say it's bloody Volcarona and Scizor who's the most troublesome to other monos. Gene is generally easy to counter.
     
  18. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    Lol, you guys make me laugh, the same people who said its uber in OU say it should stay monotype OU.
    http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?17887-Genesect-Suspect-Discussion
    The official ban reasons were, power, speed and unpredictability.

    I think its kinda strange that genesect is banned in the weather metagame OU , but unbanned in the non weather metagames. Because it gains more checks in weather.
    So the only logical reason why it got banned is it helps too much to get your own weather. Yet that was barly noticed.
     
  19. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    IMO, Genesect should be banned

    This Pokemon's scarf set is the main issue here in Monotype. It carries U-Turn, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt and Flamethrower as its best set.

    The thing about Genesect is that once you know the opponent's type (not very difficult to do) you spam the move that the opponent is weak to. Given its blistering speed as well as its possible Download boost, it's not very difficult to use type advantages to spam a particular move. For example, if you have a Genesect vs. a Flying team, you'd want to keep using Ice beam and scout for their "checks." Now this "check" is shaky at best because the best they can offer is a neutrality to your +1, essentially STAB attack. Say they have a Gyarados. You know that that thing is the only Pokemon standing in the way of an Ice Beam spam sweep so you keep playing to weaken and get rid of that Pokemon and bam, you win. For Gyarados, it eats around 40 percent for every Ice Beam switch in. The next time Genesect comes in, it wins the game.

    Genesect's coverage in those three attacks alone give it huge advantages against Bug, Steel, Grass, Flying, Dragon and many more. The reasons why it was banned in OU are even more accentuated here in Monotype due to the inflexibility of carrying Genesect's "counters" on any team. Heatran cannot be used by just any team that is having trouble with Genesect. The lack of the main weathers as stated above also makes Genesect a problem.
     
  20. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I'm not hipocrite so i'm gonna quote my old post:
    I'm still think this all is true for OU tier, but it don't think it's the same for Monotype, for some reasons:

    - The first, and most important is what pokemons which are underrated/banned in normal tiers, are usable in monotype (an example is quagsire, which i use to counter gene with my monoground, see almost no use in OU tier; other example is shadow tag chandy, which is banned in normal tiers and i use in monoghost; and im sure there are other examples too)

    - Other reason is the No preview feature of monotype: with it genesect can not predict what u are sending to counter him, if he predict bad and lock himself in a coverage move u can take advantage of it set-upping with other poke.

    So, like i said first i'm sure Flying, Grass or Dark monos can find some problems to take him down, but i don't find him so broken in monotype.
     
  21. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    First of all, there's no such thing a "Monotype OU", it's just Monotype. Monotype is a lot more of an offensive tier, so much more offensive Pokemon have been allowed from the start such as Garchomp and Thundurus-I. There were no "Official Ban Reasons" either, only the general thoughts of the player base.

    While I understand what you're saying Michael, I have to disagree. Dragon is able to run Scarf Salamence and Scarf Flygon who can outspeed and OHKO with an appropriate Fire move. You say that it has huge advantages against Steel, which you later go on to contradict yourself and say that Heatran checks it (which I have to agree with your later statement). Personally Genesect is the least of my worries on a Steel team. Grass is overall a very poor type and lacks reliable switch-ins to many common threats in Monotype including but not limited to: Volcarona, Infernape, Staraptor, Heatran, Victini, Togekiss, Dragonite, and so on. Overall Grass is a very poor match up against many types and to say that a Pokemon gives it a lot of trouble is nothing new. Once again when we're talking about Flying, there are many things it simply doesn't have an answer for such as Ice. To reference only a few types that Genesect gives trouble to isn't really that convincing of an argument since the same can be said about many other Pokemon against certain Monotypes. Monotype isn't exactly a "balanced" tier and bans are primarily instated due to certain Pokemon or certain combinations being completely unbeatable by nearly every type.
     
  22. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @Michael
    The thing is, while Genesect is a godsend against types it can hit super-effectively, against types that aren't, it can often struggle to really demonstrate its abilities at all.
    One key example of this would be MonoWater. Genesect against a MonoWater, unless you're running Giga Drain in which case you're sacrificing coverage against some other Monotype (and even then you still have problems), will be deadweight for a good portion of the game. The Water/Grounds are generally bulky enough to stand against Genesect all day, and Ludicolo can even use it as an opportunity to setup Rain Dance. Heck, even those that are weak to Thunderbolt can often tank it well enough if you don't get the Download boost (not so rare, as many Waters have a Special Def emphasis). For one example, there was a MonoWater battle I am certain I would have lost if it weren't for the fact my opponent was running a Defense-based Gyarados which gave me the Download boost; without that boost, I wouldn't have been able to KO a Tentacruel of all things before I was KOed back.

    So sure, against matchups it's good against, it certainly has lots of use, though even then it's limited, especially considering that its 99 Speed leaves it prone to revenge killing (Staraptor wai u raep MonoBug ;n;). However, taken as a whole, its inability to distinguish itself against Monotypes it has no such advantage against balances it out, IMO.
     
  23. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    I don't think Genesect is broken. It's good, but not overwhelmingly so.
     
  24. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    Monofire and monosteel both have heatran to counter it (Unless it runs the uncommon EP). The scarf can be dangerous due to the weaknesses that are prevailent, but as are all scarfers. The rock polish version is just a matter of taking it down before hitting it.

    While it can destroy my Flying team (the one I use most) or my dragon, but I still say it ISN'T broken.
     
  25. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Genesect doesn't get Earth Power, derp.
     
  26. Samphire

    Samphire Too much hard work!

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    Okay, here are my two cents. Genesect has been bugging me in monos for quite a while, for the following reasons: speed and coverage.

    Yes, Genesect has base 99 speed. Not exactly a speedy thing, no. The problem is, it is 90% of the time, scarfed. All right, things may be faster after a boost, or a higher base speed scarfed mon, but they HAVE to be sure they can take Genesect out in one hit, which brings me into my second point. Coverage. With its high offensive stats (mainly SpAtk), and access to a decent offensive movepool, a Genesect with the right moveset is a juggernaut. Therefore a OHKO is almost a necessity in my opinion, because most faster scarfers are doubtful to have the defensive power to survive one hit from Gene to then hit back the next turn. The same can be said for bulky hard hitters. Unless they are leading from the off, taking a hit on the switch-in from Genesect will make it hard to take another and able to hit back and smack Genesect around.

    I think Genesect at the current moment is ruining the diversity of Monotype.
     
  27. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I've listed many types that would normally have trouble with Genesect but have methods of walling/revenging it. Flygon/Salamence on Dragon, Salamence/Zapdos on Flying, Regice on Ice, Zoroark on Dark, Gastrodon and Quagsire on Ground, and Chansey/Porygon2 on Normal. Even Bug can counter with Volcarona who can sweep Steel/Bug with Fiery Dance and HP Ground at +1. The few types that have no answer are usually types that lack answers to many other top tier threats such as Grass and Volcarona (or any other Bug type for that matter), Fire and Keldeo, and so on. Many of these Scarf checks also are very viable outside of simply checking Genesect. Flygon's speed and typing makes it perfect for scouting. Scarf Salamence can flat out sweep once counters are removed. Scarf Zapdos is excellent at maintaining momentum and revenging Dragons. Regice walls about any special attackers and can stall them out. Chansey/Porygon2 are excellent general switch ins to many weaker hitting Scarf Pokemon. None of these Pokemon are particularly niche choices. I've seen, if not used, every single one them and they work quite well.

    If these Pokemon were niche counters, I would be inclined to say yes that Genesect is ruining the diversity of Monotype. But these Pokemon have very solid roles in checking the many Pokemon who threaten their respective types with the same weaknesses anyway.
     
  28. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Well, a lot of the things you mentions aren't checks, they are revenge killers. They require that Genesect already have gotten at least one KO (unless they are in a lead position). They can't stop Genesect from getting the kill, then just switching out of a choice scarf revenge killer. Its not like Genesect has to bother to predict against most teams, since they all generally share a weakness. As for all of the Special Walls, they are extremely prone to being hit with U-turn. Regice takes SR damage then ~25% from a U-turn. It then has to deal with something that will force it out again, which will then make it incapable of beating Genesect (it'll be 2HKO'd if it attempts to switch in again). The same holds true for Chansey, especially since it is really weak and easy to set-up on. Porygon2 is also really easy to wear down with the various attacking Pokemon that Bug- and Steel-type have. And that is what makes Genesect so powerful, its not that it can't be beaten, but it can use a very powerful U-turn against all of its would be counters and secure momentum for the team with very little risk, this is more true for Genesect than other U-turn users because Genesect's counter / check pool is so tiny that it makes it very easy to remove all of them with simple prediction or good timing.

    Its not a perfect Pokemon, but it makes running a number of types a liability, especially since it requires that a Choice Scarf with 100 speed is used with a + Speed nature. This is especially true for types like Flying, where the ONLY way to win is with to revenge kill with a Scarf'd Pokemon or multiple sacs.
     
  29. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I realize that they're revenge killers (I'm pretty sure I avoided calling them checks, sorry if I did). A lot of Monotype is saccing the correct Pokemon so one can bring in another and revenge/set up and sweep. I know that I personally sac at least one Pokemon almost every match. Due to the typing bias in Monotype, it can be quite difficult to not sacrifice a Pokemon for a safe switch in with or without Genesect. There are very clear examples of this everywhere, such as Infernape against Steel, Ludicolo against Ground, Nidoking against Steel, Terrakion against Ice, Scizor against Rock (Scissors beat Rocks ;P), and so on.

    Flying also has Thundurus with priority Thunder Wave to either cripple Genesect or a switch in. If it's a switch in, then Thundurus can just switch out and try to para again. In the same sense Steel/Bug is forced to sac something (let's face it, in Monotype, para'd is about as good as dead).
     
  30. Angelic.

    Angelic. Banned

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    I'd have to agree with sulcata on this one. Sure Genesect is a pain in the a** but it isn't broken. It does it's job with an exceptionally high success rate. Does this mean it's ban worthy? I think not, because in that case Deo-S along with the Frosslass+Golurk combo also deserve bans. They set up multiple layers of hazards effortlessly and are nearly unstoppable in doing so. Along with many other prominent sweepers like Scarf MoxieMence, MoxieGyarados (Scarf or DD) and ShellSmash Cloyster. All of which have a high success rate of sweeping teams in a matter or seconds. Even Prankster Thundurus with T-wave does what it does with an exceptionally high success rate. The only real benefit Genesect has being on bug and steel teams (outside of scouting/revenging presence) is baiting fire for Heatran and not taking 25% from Stealth Rocks. I would consider myself one of the better Monotype players on the servers (and I'm quickly hoping to get recognition soon) when it comes to teambuilding and playing. I personally have used and faced enough Genesects to know that it isn't ban worthy. There is always a coverage move Gene lacks to set it over the edge. Base 99 speed severely hampers sweeping capabilities and RP sets take away a coverage move along with U-turn on scarfed set. Physical Gene isn't even worth talking about. Gene serves its role as a Scout/Revenge Killer and does it's job well. The only other poke remotely as good for this is Shadow Tag Chandy.... there was a thread advocating it's ban made a long time ago and look at where that went.
    Unless you're willing to ban everything that is exceptional at it's job leave Gene alone.

    Having a pokemon with base 100 or higher speed scarfed is a staple on most teams. Speed is a key factor in winning battles in Monotype. If you aren't doing this you're doing something wrong.

    @Xdevo, as a Flying type veteran Gene has and always will be a pain in this ass (and not the only one). Saccing something to take care of Gene doesn't mean you don't get your own KO in the process. Monotype being a highly offensive tier in the first place lets this happen quite easily. Especially against bug.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2013
  31. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Monotype having a lot more hyper offense than OU doesn't do Genesect any favours - and its excellent SE coverage is nowhere near as effective in a tier where it's only really going to need to use 2 of its slots generally in a game (3 vs Mono Flying). It's a good pokemon that provides excellent scouting ability and revenging for mono Steel and mono Bug teams, the former of which is somewhat lacking in those and the latter has only slower scouts/revengers. Any Monotype team will have good ways of handling Genesect without being at a natural disadvantage overall, I say this as someone who mainly plays Mono Bug. No Ban IMO.
     
  32. Whatzin

    Whatzin New Member

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    This post made me laugh. Have you like, ever seen an RP Genesect? One Rock Polish with satt boost, and Genesect rips through whole teams, and there is NO flying pokemon that can take its hit (bar sturdy skarm, but really). Multiscale Dragonite is cleanly ohkod with ice beam after +1, and really, is any other pokemon even worth mentioning? They're all annihilated. Outside of that, RP genesect is still monstrous, flame thrower rips through other opposing steel & bug monos, excluding a few pokemon such as heatran and empoleon, and empoleon doesn't like a thunderbolt.

    I have refrained from commenting on this topic for quite some time, because I wanted to be %100 sure that it's a problem, and it is. It's nice to see so many people theorymoning or trying to keep it for their bug and steel teams, but this pokemon is seriously broken and shadows a lot of potentially powerful types. The scarf set is not nearly as deadly as the rock polish set, and can be played around. But anyone who's played the monotype ladder knows that once RP is up with download boost, it's quite likely gg from then on.
    I've reached second place on the ladder with monoflying before, and I know first off that RP Genesect is the deadliest threat to it. It's not just a problematic pokemon; it's a ticket to destroying a number of monos. Ones that carry bug buzz can rip through psychic monos too after download + RP, and that's another powerful type which shouldn't be looked over. What's Victini going to do vs a +1 bug buzz, especially after SR Damage? Even the neutral damage taking psychics are murdered.

    This pokemon is broken. Scarf set is powerful, not to be overlooked, but personally I think the real broken bit is access to RP + download boost. So ban RP or ban the poke, idc, it's broken, and the meta will be a lot more healthy without it (not to mention maybe some other types can be usable)

    Edit : Oh, it gets Shift Gear and Espeed now. +2 speed/+2Atk, or else +2 speed/+1atk/+2spatt after 1 turn? K just ban it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
  33. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Okay, so a rock polish pokemon with boltbeam coverage happens to do well against flying, coulda fooled me. You're forgetting that Salamence can set up just as well as Genesect can and 6-0's MonoSteels and MonoBugs. Sweeping is a two-way street. Saying how Genesect does against bug and steel.

    I don't think I've seen or said any theorymonning. Everything I've said is with what I've seen myself and others use in Monotype. Insulting other users in this discussion and implying that they're biased for supporting the other side isn't your greatest idea.

    And so it seems that your biggest argument is that Genesect hurts MonoFlying, which apparently you've managed to take second with. I doubt it really hurts it that much if Flying can make the first page in multiple instances. Not to mention as I've said before, there are certain threats that some Monotype's struggle to have an answer for, such as Magnezone and Steel and Volcarona and Grass. Not every Monotype can have a perfectly built team with an answer to everything.

    Psychic can still deal with Genesect using Victini. Stealth Rock isn't the easiest thing to get up on MonoPsychic with Xatu, Espeon, Starmie, and even Claydol lurking amongst the team. Which makes Victini a very strong check. Not to mention that a Bulk Up Gallade can tank one hit and hit back with Drain Punch to heal back enough damage to survive another Bug Buzz and take out Genesect.

    You were saying something about theorymonning?
     
  34. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @Whatzin
    Though it does kill MonoFlying, MonoGrass, oftentimes MonoDragon depending on who their revenge killer is, and various others, you should also consider the Monos that Genesect doesn't help against.

    For some examples, MonoWaters with their Water/Grounds eating T-bolts and their many Grass resists tanking Giga Drain can take on any Choice set, and your Rock Polish set won't have enough coverage moves to handle all of them anyways.
    MonoFighting Pokemon don't take hits well but they tend to survive with enough HP to KO in return with sheer STAB power.
    MonoPsychic can actually be a pretty tough matchup; the aforementioned Victini is incredibly troublesome to work around and Trick Room is just awful to face against (honestly I'd say Volcarona does more in that matchup than Genesect).
    MonoIce can send in either Walrein or Regice; both can eat a Flamethrower with enough HP to setup a Sub and then proceed to wall the hell out of MonoBug.
    MonoSteel can swap around between Heatran and Skarmory to defeat not just Genesect, but oftentimes the entirety of a MonoBug.

    Basically, Genesect is great against certain Monos but sucks against others.
     
  35. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Just going to add that it should be banned from Monogen and Monocolour as well... Having used Genesect in Monotype it's really not that bad. It's limited by it's moveset and almost everyone is scarf. Most need Psychic to beat Monofighting.
     
  36. Olivine

    Olivine Member

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    Most of the way of dealing with Genesect deal with Fire type, and Steel has Heatran to stop fire moves.
    As most Genesect are scarved and have U-Turn (from stats, without making precise calcs, 50% of Genesect are some sort of scarf set.), dealing with Genesect requires a scarfed mon, too (or have a successful setup). This means, you'll be choice-locked into a fire move, which heatran can stop succesfully. Ground/Fighting attacks, that are generally useful vs Heatran, are mostly useless vs Skarmory. While there are methods to deal with any of these mons, I find none of them to break this core easily enough.

    While Genesect can be countered, there are too many sets to be sure a slower pokemon will be able to kill it (let alone the chance it will just U-Turn out). Dedicating more than one mon to stop Genesect puts the non-Genesect user to a disadvantage.

    Please, ban, or make it so that only either Genesect or Heatran can be on a team.
     
  37. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I could say a suspect discussion is in order. There are too many pro-ban comments to be take lightly.

    Anyway, I noted an increase of Rock Polish genesects in the tier, what is in my opinion a greater threat than the Scarfed version. I can compare the power of RP genesect with that of Sheer Force Landorus to make an example, and he can do its work extremelly well, with partners like CB scizor or Jirachi making holes in the opponent team.

    Now i'm very unsure about Gene, scarfed versions are very maneagable, but is the RP versions what bug me, specially if with the right moves.
     
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