[BW2] Mienfoo Testban Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LC' started by Weavile, Apr 9, 2013.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Discuss the impact the Mienfoo testban is having on the metagame.
    Discuss what is gaining ground and what is losing it due to Mienfoo's absence.
    Only once you have tested a reasonable amount give your opinion on if you think Mienfoo should stay banned or not. Please state this clearly and with reasons.
    Suspect discussion rules apply.

    Mienfoo should be banned soon, put in the appropriate request.
     
  2. waywardwind12

    waywardwind12 Hi

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    I was just wondering why Mienfoo is banned and not the way more controversial Misdreavus and Murkrow?

    Most Mienfoo are pretty easily counterable with Krow and Missy and to a certain extent Ponyta. I really think that Foo should not be banned. Even before the suspects were introduced, Mienfoo was pretty "OP" but no one really talked about removing it from the metagame. Now, by banning Foo in the midst of the real "OP mons" of Murkrow and Misdreavus, it is analogous to banning Foongus or Chinchou or anything else that is commonly used.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2013
  3. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It's just a test that'll last for a little while, then Mienfoo will be unbanned. No need to get up in arms about it just yet.

    Also, talk about how insanely centralizing - not necessarily overpowered - Mienfoo is has gone on for quite a while. Which is probably the reason for this test ban.
     
  4. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    wait you were serious about this?? :P
    normal types may become more viable but don't see anything huge happens
     
  5. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I'm gamed so let's see what happens (This means I won't bitch :]), the only things I see happening is a lot of teams sucking since Mienfoo carries a lot of weight teams imo. No more knocking off and u-turning on the switch or kicking ass with the choiced set/life orb. Timburr and Croagunk will rise in usage out of all the fighting types, Missy will now "centralize" the meta, Normal types will stay the same, and hazard setters will be more efficient (no more knock off or taunt). All of this is theory atm, I'll edit as I see progress.

    The only good thing (I hope) is that this thread will get activity since almost everybody's teams will get fucked over by this testban.
     
  6. (Lisalo.)

    (Lisalo.) Member

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    I have not logged in for little over a month so I dunno, but last time I checked Mienfoo was glue. Plus Pory would be a problem, seeing as most teams cannot afford to have Timburr or Machop.
    Meh, I'll use Mankey if I get back in (or stick to Showdown)
     
  7. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I'll just state here that the primary reasons for this testban were
    1) Mienfoo is on most every team, it is very centralising
    2) Yes that argument can be made for both Missy and Krow, but they have been banned before and it never really did much to help the tier, that's for sure.
    3) The state of the meta without Mienfoo is one we have not really seen before, putting out a testban on something is of course temporary, it's the best way to see how the meta plays out without it.

    As for my own (atm) speculation, I think Timburr will rise in usage to fill Mienfoo's gap, since Missy doesn't deal with Timburr at all I feel that Missy will become less useful, as for Krow, I think about the same. It's very versatile.
    I also think Timburr checks will of course rise, shit like Slowpoke and Abra.
    I think that people might start to realise that Roar on Riolu is squandered potential and use normal sets to attempt to fill the gap (nah just kidding people don't learn).
     
  8. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Starting off with the more defensive one, A 6 HP / 76 Atk / 196 Def / 76 Spd EV spread would allow mienfoo to be significantly bulky on the physical side, being one of the best checks to the banned scraggy. Knock Off is also a very good move in LC, enabling it to be able to smack off the eviolites that are used most of the time. It also has a very good healing move in drain punch, and an even better one in being able to be able to regenerate off its health by virtue of its ability regenerator. This allows mienfoo to be able to tank hits throughout the game.

    Going on the more offensive side, with a 236 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spd EV spread, it becomes one of the best revenge-killers in the tier with the use of choice scarf. Reckless HJK is also a real threat to face, being extremely powerful.

    However, mienfoo is not without its checks and counters. While mienfoo does have access to recovery, bulky ghosts/poison/psychics such as missy and slowpoke can wall it and burn it with WoW, rendering it nearly useless. I would think the same with weavilewinz that other fighting types will try to take its place, but mienfoo is still possibly the best fighting type currently in the tier and none(except timburr; albeit much slower) can replicate the same fire power as mienfoo. Thus i say,
    NO BAN
     
  9. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    He's right
    But OK. The checks you listed (Slowpoke and Misdreavus), both of those are rendered near useless by a simple Knock-Off. Slowpoke especially. Also U-Turn allows it to flee on the switch into another counter, with Regenerator this makes both of these checks highly unreliable, especially Slowpoke. Even when burned if Mienfoo simply Knock Offs some Eviolites, it's done more than your average Pokémon to help the team.

    Other Fighting-types do not have the tools Mienfoo does. U-Turn, Regenerator, high attack, very strong bulk, Knock Off, Swords Dance, Baton Pass, decent speed etc. A major point is that there simply is 0 reason to use anything else. Nothing else fills a niche that it doesn't just do better except Prankster Roar Riolu perhaps. But Anyway, I've got testing to do.
     
  10. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    People think it just checks Scraggy and sweep, you are extremely off. Mienfoo fills so many roles it can never hurt a team, it can only make it better. Like I told Weavile you can make a full team of 6 pokemon that contains a trait of Mienfoo. It's that deep.

    Sexy Gardevoir: Even if you burn it, you can still knock off eviolite and change momentum. Imo, Mienfoo is never useless depending on the iq of the player. I see I was ninja'd by Weavile :s

    Lisalo: You are acting like Timburr is bad, it's really not. I would use Timburr over Mankey anyday.

    I don't agree with the ban, but it is a test for now. Lets see how it goes.
     
  11. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I like the ban. No more mienfoo means that there is some more diversity, a regen ban would've been better though imo. With that there will be much more ocmpetition among grass types since shroomish has poison heal, no psychic weakness and bulk, oddish has stats over foongus and fongus wont have regen to make it that dominating.

    Anyways, im predicting missy will start going more NP now that the defensive set is less useful, a NP missy will probably mean less restalk chinchou (probably back to scarf or bulky attackers) and rock types will move in to take on murkrow. So overall, more diversity. Anyways i've seen some mankey, some riolu and stuff, also lileep which is good. I see porygon on the rise, too.

    Mienfoo's centralizing factor, for me, makes it worse than missdrevous and murkrow. However, i would like to see missdrevous at least banned, it would open duskull/frillish's usage as walls and gastly as an offensive ghost. Though for gastly to work murkrow would need to go, too. The suspects get rid of diversity tbh, they also make the tier much more speed based.

    Though i havent seen any munchlax they seem like a good idea now, i suppose the usage of lileep makes it somewhat irrelevant though.

    By the way, may i remind people mienfoo's defensive stats arent all that good.... regenerator's supply of HP is what makes it 'bulky'

    Personally im voting to keep mienfoo, Ban Regenerator since it will also make some diversity with grass types
     
  12. (Lisalo.)

    (Lisalo.) Member

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    Arty, it's not that timburr is bad, it's that Timburr requires support, whilst Mienfoo OFFERs it. Plus pory does a lot to Timburr and he does not have a high power stab move so...
     
  13. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    here is a full list of every pokemon that had over 4.5% usage with mienfoo. I shall now post my predictions of what will happen to usage in a meta sans-mienfoo, feel free to contradict me
    Murkrow 35.3645 more or less will stay the same might see a slight dip as a mienfoo check, but i doubt much will change -1%
    Misdreavus 33.3703 see a dip defensively and a light offensive boost -1%
    Mienfoo 26.191 n/a
    Chinchou 27.1216 204 less volturns more aggressive to deal with krow +1.5%
    Foongus 24.4627 the new regen king, without his buddy it'll probably be a slight dip -1%
    Abra 22.3355 definitely will see a dip in usage despite other fightings rising up -3%
    Staryu 22.0696
    Bronzor 20.4742 huge success for this guy, despite him only slightly being worse than mienfoo in 1v1 the removal of such check will be a great blessing for Bronzor +3%
    Porygon 17.9482 FYI Trak stole that bit about Pory from me. I see great potential for all his sets to see more use +2.5%

    Drifloon 15.5551 other than acrofloon I don't even see why he's still doing this great in usage, no change if any it'll be a slight dip
    Ponyta 12.0984 due to houndours rise as an alternate fire sweeper, less people will opt to use -1%
    Riolu 11.6995 Riolu is in no way a substitue for any of mienfoo's sets and should see no changes
    Drilbur 11.3007 will act as an alternate missy+bronzor check +1%
    Pawniard 11.0348 even with other great fightings rising it's safe to say the dark/steel/ice/rock community can breathe easily, plan accordingly +1%
    Diglett 10.6359
    Voltorb 10.503
    Snover 10.37 see pawniard, however w/o sand it won't be too impressive +.5%
    Archen 10.2371 see pawniard, also rocks will be the new face of murkrow cleanup +1%
    Magnemite 10.1041 see pawniard, will be brought in to help alleviate the new bronzor clusters +1.5%
    Houndour 9.97119 see pawniard, he'll finally get to show off his sweeping ability and fire types might even become a staple sweeper again +1.5%

    Darumaka 9.83825
    Axew 9.4394
    Nosepass 8.50875 see pawniard, not too much versatility though so... +.5%
    Mankey 8.50875 the high usage of fast offensive mienfoo will be picked up by mankey +8%
    Ferroseed 7.97696 see pawniard+houndour overall safe to say more of ferro +1%
    Lileep 7.84401 see pawniard, it can do slightly more than nosepass +.51%

    Gastly 7.31221
    Timburr 7.31221 unlike mankey, he will take the place of bulky mienfoo, can't do that as well though so +6%
    Stunky 7.17926
    Dwebble 7.04631 shell smashers rejoice a top threat is removed +3%
    Larvesta 6.91336 a decent mienfoo check with more hazards his weakness will be magnified -.5%
    Shroomish 6.78041
    Onix 6.78041 see pawniard +.5%
    Clamperl 6.51451
    Trubbish 5.98272
    Anorith 5.84977 see pawniard +.5%
    Duskull 5.45092
    Growlithe 5.31797
    Tentacool 4.78617
    Cranidos 4.65322 see pawniard +.5%[/HIDE]

    note: this is only a first step change. what changes these changes will bring, i don't know, probably more water to beat the rocks and fire. bugs to beat the darks. and so forth. maybe even some more grass. The point I am trying to draw from this is it brings great use to lesser used mons and diversifies the meta-game just a bit more. not to mention a few other mons such as omanyte and tirtoga
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2013
  14. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    @Lisalo Almost every pokemon needs support, so I don't see how it makes Timburr worse than any other pokemon especially Fighting types (Why are you comparing Mienfoo to Timburr? The only thing they have is Bulk Up and the Fighting type). Pory hitting hard the bulk up Timburr set with Drain Punch and Guts... really? Why don't you calc a +1 DP and a non boosted one.

    @Trak you can't say it will diversify. Just look at the past two bans on the meta. Now tell me was the meta more diversified after the Sand Ban and Scraggy banned it was diversified? Before you say why I'm comparing Mienfoo to Sand? Wasn't Sand on every team with the following pokemon: Hippopotas and Drilbur and Lileep? That's why I feel "centralization" is a bs term in LC. Also Mienfoo is bulky, Idc if it doesn't have regen. Point is it does and you cannot change that.

    I'm my phone so only had time to some points, I'll try to get on, but I have a fever and competition tomorrow.

    I wish I had a certain post someone posted (not on these forums) about centralization in LC. I'll try to find it.
     
  15. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well every tier has some level of centralization in it. LU has Nidoqueen and the infamous Slowking+Tangrowth core, NU has Crustle+Misdreavus and things like Samurott, and OU is a clusterfuck of weather wars. Of course some team archetypes such as sand and even as broad as stall(Slowking in LU) or heavy offense(Samurott in NU) have some designated members, especially in LC where there aren't many choices to begin with, let alone good ones. One pokemon can still cause a hell of a lot of centralization by itself. Just because it still needs a team behind it and isn't broken by itself doesn't change the effect it can have on a metagame. Tornadus-T in OU is a picture perfect example of this.

    Plus with LC being as tiny as it is in terms of viable pokemon(meaning not just filling a certain niche another pokemon only does marginally worse in), "centralization" is a gigantic factor.
     
  16. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Centralization in LC =\= Other tiers. In OU you are free to use UU's, NU's, LU's, and NEU's. In UU you can use stuff below it, etc etc. In LC you can only use the same pokemon and the only way to to get new pokemon is per gen. This is the reason why there is "centralization", so why do we keep banning because of overcentralization when LC is limited as it is? I really want someone to prove to me how the meta will change an be diversified if Mienfoo is banned. "Things will be used even used more" and "Rain/Sun is will be viable" haha not in this meta with all the eviolites roaming in pokemon"
     
  17. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    using that logic we should conclude that even those other tiers have their ban lists that are plentiful, it is an example I am not against following. IJust look at ubers, that;s a huge tier. let us not shirk in our work as well
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I think the main reason this test ban is in place is mainly to see what the tier will be like without Mienfoo. It's to see if the tier can diversify if Mienfoo's not in the tier, because trying to give you proof that it would without actually testing would be strictly theorymon. So, instead of asking for proof, just play the tier(for more than 2 or 3 games) and see for yourself, since you have the perfect opportunity to find out. Actually give something a chance instead of instantly shooting it down just because it changes the tier a bit. It's not like this is a permanent ban or anything of the sort.

    Also, I thought this wasn't relevant enough to the thread's purpose so I put it in hide tags:
    [secret]"Centralization" is not a slang term used because we're playing pokemon, it's an actual word that can be used to describe a phenomenon that happens in the metagame. It can be used in every single tier you can think of that isn't random like Battle Factory, Metronome, Challenge Cup, etc. The reason why you'd ban for something being too centralizing is up to the entire player base of that tier; we are playing a game here, and it's ultimately about what makes it more fun to play. Banning something isn't always 100% objective, as pokemon is a subjective game. Your version of "broken" is probably different from mine, etc etc.

    Again, the simple fact that LC has so little choices naturally makes it way more centralizing than any other tier that exists, even Ubers. It's also why RBY OU was so centralized; there were such few choices that could stand up to powerhouses like Tauros, Chansey, and Snorlax.

    Also, "overcentralization" is a bullshit term that was basically invented to make another argument for banning Excadrill, and it really didn't exist in any tier at any time.[/secret]
     
  19. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Arte, scraggy and sand werent banned for over centralization.... Sand was banned for it's power...
    Either way, with so many less pokemon, let alone usable ones, in lc we cant afford to over centralize.
    Take a look at missy, it takes the place of bulky ghost annd offensive ghost, thats at least two pokemon gone there, three if you count duskull. Mienfoo does the same except it nerfs every other fighting type to a large degree.

    EDIT: except that with mienfoo gone a lot of types have risen in usage not just other fighting types, the misys/krow due just nerfed restalk(for the most part, this means not chin). With mienfoo gone, chinchou is running offensive sets, lileep is back in usage and so much more already.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  20. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I just want to say that comparing Misdreavus' "centralising" effect and Mienfoo's is bogus. Misdreavus in the tier renders all ghosts but niche sets outclassed. That is something, but there are few ghosts to begin with. Mienfoo's effect on the tier doesn't render fighting types outclassed, as is clear with Timburr, Riolu, it forces all teams to be built around it (whether they have it in the team or not) and automatically makes a large amount of pokemon nigh unusable in the tier. Aside from that it shares a lot in common with Genesect in OU, except it has even more going for it in LC than Genesect has in OU. It has good bulk with a good typing both defensively and offensively, it will last a whole game a significant majority of the time, it uses STAB primarily rather than super effective coverage, it has a higher level of unpredictability (when not just brainlessly thrown in) and multiple niche sets. With Mienfoo in the tier, there is basically no reason not to run it - it's an offensive and momentum boost for any team. It's far too easy for any player to click either Drain Punch/HJK or U-Turn constantly with it, and it's not hard to get in play, as well as Regenerator making the risk, of which there is very little to begin with, even lesser.

    I haven't played extensively in LC since the unban but I'm enjoying the way the tier is going without Mienfoo. I'm seeing a lot more variation in what's being run, partly because people are trying to fill the momentum gap and partly because a lot of pokemon have suddenly became not a liability.
     
  21. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    It seems a concensuss(or however you spell it) has been reached, with all but arte(who likes boasting about his peaks and non existent skill while losing miserably) thinking the ban has had positive effects on the meta.
    But to summarize...
    Other fighting types get more usage and there are more fighting types being used(mankey for scarf, riolu for niche sweeper or revenger, timburr for a bulkier attacker)
    So much more becomes viable, lileep is starting to appear again
    No more mienfoo on every damned team
    A (im taking a blind stab here) more diverse meta, chinchou will be forces to change or give way a little for something else to squeeze in with lileep on the rise, missy will now run an offensive set more often because it wont be as useful for checking fighting types since timbur has its payback guts combo, mankey is faster and turns and stuff(also assurance+stealth rock means a 100 base power dark move on the switch) and riolu threatens with copycat(which might force some chinchou to run bulky attacker in other to not be plot fodder)

    The only negative i can see is mienfoo being gone as a pokemon, im still pushing for a regenerator ban(which would allow people to use mienfoo for a HJK+reckless scarfer or something and foongus will have competition which give oddish, shroomish a chance in the meta)

    Feel free to add anything
     
  22. Tupac Shakur

    Tupac Shakur :]

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    I don't see a problem with Mienfoo in the Wifi LC tier. I've faced a handful of them and unless they are scarfed they usually don't last long. Pokemon like Bronzong and Misdreavus are great counters. Bronzong is a common pokemon on the ladder having access to Stealth Rocks and great defense, Walling Mienfoo. And the obvious is for is Misdreavus your opponent (In most cases) won't risk the HJK if you have Misdreavus on your team.

    Gurrdurr has better bulk then Mienfoo and in my opinion is harder to counter if played right. Please don't take my comments too seriously as i only have around 1200 in Wifi LC.
     
  23. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Idk what your fucking problem is. I want you to find a post where I boast about my peaks in this thread and if you really want to talk about losing, and can bring up battles that I had with you under other alts vs you using gimmick teams and most of the time your hax kinda matters more than mine since it ends up costing me the game.

    Chinchou using another set doesn't mean diversity is happening. It's not even a fucking reason. Chinchou is #6 in the usage stats the next water type is Staryu #7. Those two pokemon make the other water types look like shit, so what do you want to do. If we ban those two more roles will be opened up and it will bring diversity. Lets ban those two. We should ban Porygon, too for a normal type increase(Munch, Lickytung, Eevee), and Ponyta for a increase in fire types, right (Darumaka, Cyndiquail, Growlithe, Larvesta)? Using you're logic of course.

    Lileep will be low usage due to weakness in fighting types and it will still be low because of "Mankey", Timburr, Croagunk, Machop, and Mienfoo. Imo Lileep usage isn't low it's just right. Timburr can't switch in on Missy and people don't wisp a Timbur please use common sense Trak, Mankey predicting punishment on a Missy can go both ways (you losing the momentum or you gaining a kill), Riolu is a gamble too and really can't do anything if you didn't crunch before so you can copycat or have a lot of sp atk and sp def so you can copycat that shadow ball.

    http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi LC/index.html If you look at the stats it's still centralized and I believe these are updated because Mienfoo is at #9.

    If you want to use oddish and shit use it. Another way to add diversity to the game is making fun teams and laddering with them, that's a better option than banning more pokes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  24. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It takes more than a week for a tier to adapt to a change this gigantic, trakyan. Artemisa as well. It's way too early to tell if the metagame's going to actually diversify or just stay stagnant, although it'll probably shift to Murkrow+Misdreavus checking/countering, since they're still so strong.

    Also, please don't attack anyone like that trakyan. It just leads to the discussion turning to shit since brains shut off when people are angry.
    Before anyone says anything that was a blanket statement.
     
  25. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    ban whoever you want, but don't touch the duck
     
  26. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Instead of the petty arguing I thought i'd give give an insight into my experience on the new metagame so far.

    I really don't think the metagame has become a lot more diverse. Teams from what I've seen are all still murkrow + missy + picking 4 from the top 15 mons. People who are talking about timburr taking the space or stuff like pawniard becoming popular and usable, I've not seen it yet.

    Still early stages so far, this could all change.
     
  27. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I'd like to say that Misdreavus does not beat Mienfoo as well as people like to claim. It does of course have Knock Off, while this will rarely take out Misdreavus on its own, unless Missy gets a sub up it will drastically reduce the all-round effectiveness of Missy until it dies, this is made more effective by U-Turn and Regenerator allowing something that hits Missy to come in at any time (especially since Mienfoo is slower than Missy).

    Also we're happy to have your input, we need more forum people after all.

    I gotta go soon but I'll make a brief comment.

    From the testing I did a few days ago I personally have seen more varied teams in some cases, but in others it appears people have just taken their normal team and replaced Mienfoo, literally, this could well be to avoid making a new team, but one thing can be said and that is that these teams are less effective than they were with Mienfoo around. I don't think a lot of players have constructed whole new teams (this is speaking of your generic ladder player) for the test ban period. We still have more to see of course, as everyone is saying, early days. I think there is more to come.

    PS: Could we cut the pointless attacking please.
     
  28. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    if the question is whether or not the meta is more diverse i would have to say it is. But only the usage stats will say for sure.
    pawniard enjoys mienfoos absence... that or i am just now finding out how beastly it is.
     
  29. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    although there are probably a few, you arent as restrained in the PO chats/pms. Either way my point stands(both of them)
    And no, if we banned chin and staryu it wouldnt open things up for water types. Staryu is used as a rapid spinner, so it would be replaced by RAPID SPINNERs not water types. Chinchou is used as a bulky attacker, scarfer which is a role so many things can and do fill, but its main niche atm is countering crow, ban it and rock types will be on the rise.
    Also, i've already seen about three munchlax the past few days, its pretty good with eq/fire punch/pursuit/body slam or return

    And to be honest, ponyta hasnt always been the most popular, even now it doesnt see too much usage. At one point larvesta was all the hype and ponyta is the go to for bulk, i've seen some darumaka recently and cyndaquil just isnt used because of stealth rock. Growlithe is the only thing that is directly hindered by ponyta since it's niche is also in bulk(with intimidate, too)

    Actually, lileep's usage has risen, it was pretty much gone after sand went and now it's back again.

    And arte, use protect and a mix attacker set with life orb, missy uses shadow ball when you protect and bam you copycat with LO and 14+ satk. LO is better than eviolite tbh, gain so many extra kills and the mixed attacker spread

    Riolu (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 196 Atk / 40 Def / 236 SAtk / 36 Spd
    Rash Nature (+SAtk, -SDef)
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - Drain Punch
    - Substitute
    - Copycat

    can actually do more than like 20% with copycat on shadowball.... drain punch is nice to heal some damage from LO but LO HJK is where the damage is at. Use crunch/zen heabut/earthquake if you want over drain punch. TBH eq isnt worth it since chin loses to HJK, ZHB is nice for foongus(protect and copycat on spore works too) and crunch for missy, but shadowball does the same.) Pursuit missy if you want/suck at predicting(To avoid any misunderstanding: Arte this is NOT aimed at you, i'd make it obvious if it was, just to anyone who doesnt want to risk a missy switch on HJK.)

    And arte, be honest, there is no reason to use oddish, its better stats are trumped by regenerator on foongus. Also, has anyone tried restalk timbur? iron fist/guts seems nice for use with drain punch. Kinda hard to think of a spread because you can only afford to invest in one defense+HP. Its a nice sleep absorber who isnt weak to foongus and ice punch 2 hits back, a guts or iron fist boosted ice punch also does a nice amount to missy.
     
  30. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I haver never pm'd you and I do not like bragging about peaks. I'm pretty sure I started the Darumaka fad and now the ScarfKrow fad. I'm on the phone so I have to get to the point: either way my post was right on the logic you use. You ban staryu,then kabuto, anorith, tentacool might rise in usage. Say tentacool might steal that role, then we would have to ban that so the others can be used. Guess what? The same thing will happen until we have banned everything. Finally so far it's what weavile has said people just replace Mienfoo.
     
  31. Imarriedzelda

    Imarriedzelda New Member

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    Hi, I'm new to the forum, but I've been playing LC for a long while. Ok anyways I feel like I'm suddenly seeing a lot of scarfed timburr on the ladder with the test ban. It's actually pretty easy to play around though some it's outspend by basically every common scarfer, and with it being locked into a fighting move, missy or even gastly can end it. I know I'm personally using a scarfed Mankey as my mienfoo replacement and its working terrific, almost the same as mienfoo minus regenerator. Other than those two I'm not seeing any apparent changes, ok there's my two cents.
     
  32. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Scarfed Timburr?....

    Either way Timburr has risen in usage. Arguably the best fighting type in a Mienfoo-less meta.
     
  33. Imarriedzelda

    Imarriedzelda New Member

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    Yep, scarfed timburr, I was really surprised the first time I saw one.
     
  34. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Scarfed Timburr is.... just a bit silly for a number of reasons, I hope whoever you saw using it sees that soon. Waste of a Pokémon. Also welcome to the subforum Yesidoinfactlift.
    Pawniard and Snover are two things I like the look of now. especially Pawniard due to the fact that it can harass Missy pretty well if it plays right. I like Scarf Pawniard especially.
    Lickitung I believe can come into its own, it has many tools at its disposal, being a decent user of Wish, which is kind of unheard of in LC, as well as a cleric and access to Dragon Tail.
    Mankey is a decent fighting type but it doesn't quite fill Mienfoo's gap as a scarfer imo. Not just because of its lack of Regenerator, but its all round bulk is lacking quite badly. Although it has Vital Spirit, which is a nice touch. Defiant is also a nice gimmick if you can make use of it.
     
  35. not a cop

    not a cop Member

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    can't see why scarf timburr could be used over machop....
     
  36. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I meant on the programe, as in the one with the tohjo chat etc, and yes you do brag about your peaks.
    And you cant compare staryu(who is no where near the #1 spot) to something that had held the #1 spot consistently for ages and eliminated the use of every other pokemon of it's type(maybe bar croagunk who has dry skin for scald and being priority king). Staryu doesnt replace every other water type, its not even the most popular one.

    And, guys, the only reason you thought of mienfooo of bulky was regenerator, the only difference between their bulk in stats is one point in either defense or special defense, i forgot which, nothing noticable... So stop going all 'ohh many mankey is soooo much less bulky than mienfoo..."

    Im thinking scarfed timbur's niche sits in iron fist and ice punch or.... idk to be honest, drain punch boosted by iron fist doesnt cut it as a scarf move... Machop should see some use imo, dynamic punch causes quite a disturbance, and you'r oponents luck will run out during the match and they will get hit hard by confusion. Also, machop has closecombat, too, people, would make a nice attack with those extra 30 base points in power(stab factored in on both). The extra power can come in handy, and it's not like machop needs more than dynamic punch/ice punch/payback, it can spare a slot for closecombat.
     
  37. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    They still steal the spotlight from water types that aren't being used, so I don't see how it's different. Look at how many water types are above 5% in the ranks right now. After that count how many water types are in the tier. Now tell me Chinchou and Staryu aren't stealing the spotlight from water types. Staryu steals the spotlight from the other spinners in the game. #6 in usage is pretty high.

    Mienfoo has regen which is the recovery that Mankey does not have. This means it cannot take that many hits as Mienfoo which makes Mankey have it's longevity shorten. Mankey is frail compared to Mienfoo because of this. Also Mankey doesn't carry eviolite that much compared to Mienfoo. Saying Mienfoo w/o Regen is frail is a fail argument, so please stop using it.

    And please stop discussing scarfed Timburr. For the sake of the thread.
     
  38. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I would say that the meta has absolutely gotten more diverse without Mienfoo - and if Misdreavus and Murkrow have continued to be a problem, that's separate from Mienfoo. The meta in LC is very much improved by virtue of every team not being able to slot in a pokemon that is an instant offensive momentum gainer with zero risk and next to zero thought or strategy required. I also don't see it as a problem that Misdreavus is so common, it's nowhere near a perfect, riskless or brainless pokemon, it's just the best ghost available, and many teams want to run a ghost. Murkrow would be a whole other issue, I think it's worth a suspect discussion. But this is about Mienfoo - keep it in ubers imo, via what i said in this and the last post.
     
  39. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Arte, mienfoo IS frail without regen, and it only has one point in one defense over mankey in bulk. Its a perfectly damn good arguement considering im trying to say ban regenerator and not meinfoo.

    Also, as for the whole water types arguement... are you saying you want psyduck rising in usage? im pretty sure you(or maybe someone else) said in one of the sand discussions that psyducks usage was a testimate to how bad sand was to the meta. Anyways, lets look at other way types in the meta

    barboach, a quad grass weakness doesnt help it given how popular foongus is and that it cant OHKO the mushroom, also totodile does dd better.
    buizel... i actually seen a few of these...
    clamperl, shell smash is a sort of curse here, although it can OHKO foongus murkrows suckerpunch is a punch where it hurts
    corphish, totodile outclasses it save for a more powerful stab waterfall, though it lacks coverage for foongus.
    Im gonna skip a few absolutely useless ones like feebas and ducklett
    mantyke, i've seen a few of these, too, its pretty good and has great special defense, wont be as good now that chinchou is using electric attacks again
    krabby, not quite outclassed by totodile i suppose...
    swift swimmers, i dont think setting weather works in lc... im gona leave it at that(as for their other niches like kabuto with spin/rocks and omanyte with smash, they tend to be outclassed(kabuto isnt the spitting image of a reliable stealth rocker or spinner) or suffer the same issues as clamperl, as well as having less power and a x4 weakness to grass. It can set all the hazards which is nice but you dont really have time with missy waiting to set up np or whatever...)
    shell smashers(suckerpunch hurts them, many have a x4 weakness to grass and often cant handle foongus(except shelder who does pretty well vs suckerpunch thanks to ice shard and icicle spear for foongus))
    Shellos/frillish, the former seems viable to me actually, it has recover and good special defense and water absorb which is good for bulky chin, the latter is outclasssed by and beaten to a pulp by missy, murkrow also pwns it.
    water spout squirtle and wailmer, suckerpunch and rocks(spinning just lets things set up) ruins them, not that they scored many KOes
    wooper, not bulky enough imo.... nice chinchou counter if it lacks HP grass i guess with water absorb or w/e... idk...
    Totodile, this i imagine will be pretty high in usage with the release of its dream world ability. It has dragon dance and something a lot of other water types lack; coverage to score some extra KOes. Sheer force, life orb boosted things like crunch(missy, slowpoke, frillish(if it finds usage)) and water fall will make it a titan, super power destroys lileep and ferrothorn, ice fang(if sheer force kicks in twice for the two effects, if not, ice punch) should KO foongus with a boost. It also has a way around murkrows suckerpunch if its still around when its released.

    252Atk Life Orb +1 Sheer Force lvl 5 Totodile (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite lvl 5 Foongus (+Def): 76% - 100% (20 - 26 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Thats assuming people use that kind of foongus.

    But think about it... the meta is geared to wall water types, bulky chinchou, foongus, lileep... they all put a stop to offensive water types. Missdrevous ruins one of the few defensive ones not in use and the other(shellos) i suppose isnt that usefull since water typing isnt a huge boon defensively, chinchou feeds off its electric typing and resistance to brave bird as a wall.

    Also, it terms of offensive water types not getting usage(this applies to powerful pokemon who no longer get use), if you dont hit 19 speed or more you suck. Why? Murkrow and missy. If you arent 19 speed your slow and cant sweep, if you have priority then maybe, but otherwise no. Gastly and many others went bye bye because of that fact.
     
  40. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    So me and weavile recently had this discussions

    (00:39) fitzyhbbe: kinda late
    (00:39) fitzyhbbe: but want to talk about minefoo?
    (00:39) Toph Bei Fong: Ok
    (00:39) Toph Bei Fong: LoTR has a while to go
    (00:39) Toph Bei Fong: So I got time
    (00:39) Toph Bei Fong: Tbh I'm leaning toward ban
    (00:39) fitzyhbbe: so I was thinking
    (00:40) Toph Bei Fong: hmm?
    (00:40) fitzyhbbe: without foo, a good amount of stuff gets a lot better
    (00:40) fitzyhbbe: the thing is though
    (00:40) fitzyhbbe: thats down to regen
    (00:41) Toph Bei Fong: I don't like the idea of banning regen tbh
    (00:41) Toph Bei Fong: Mostly because complex bans are avoided everywhere else
    (00:42) Toph Bei Fong: While personally I don't mind them that much
    (00:42) Toph Bei Fong: I'm more concerned about consistency
    (00:42) fitzyhbbe: same
    (00:42) Toph Bei Fong: So what's your overall opinion on it?
    (00:43) Toph Bei Fong: The thread seems to lean toward stay gone atm
    (00:43) fitzyhbbe: but like I don't think test banning regen as a whole would be bad
    (00:43) Toph Bei Fong: So, banning it across the whole tier?
    (00:43) Toph Bei Fong: I think that's unfair to things like Slowpoke
    (00:44) fitzyhbbe: theres 3 main users
    (00:44) fitzyhbbe: slowpoke, foongus and foo
    (00:44) Toph Bei Fong: Foongus, Poke, Mienfoo
    (00:44) Toph Bei Fong: Foongus and Poke aren't even close to ban-level problems thouh
    (00:44) Toph Bei Fong: though*
    (00:45) Toph Bei Fong: Slowpoke isn't even a real threat
    (00:45) fitzyhbbe: they aren't
    (00:45) fitzyhbbe: though slowpoke thrives in this meta
    (00:45) Toph Bei Fong: I say that's questionable
    (00:45) Toph Bei Fong: I think Missy is a bit too common
    (00:45) Toph Bei Fong: and stuff like Lileep
    (00:46) Toph Bei Fong: and Chinchou ofc
    (00:46) fitzyhbbe: the metagame is at a stage where it revolves around fighting types
    (00:47) Toph Bei Fong: I think Foongus is effecitve enough against most Fighters
    (00:47) Toph Bei Fong: that its extra uses outweigh the extra reliability against fighters
    (00:48) fitzyhbbe: the tier is such a shit thanks to krow
    (00:50) fitzyhbbe: and you can't complex ban because then stuff like rough skin carvanah would come up
    (00:51) Toph Bei Fong: mmhm
    (00:51) Toph Bei Fong: So do you reckon
    (00:51) Toph Bei Fong: Keep Mienfoo banned, see about future suspects later?
    (00:52) fitzyhbbe: Not sure really
    (00:53) fitzyhbbe: kinda wishing we'd suspected krow first
    (00:53) Toph Bei Fong: Because if we keep Foo unbanned we can't ban Krow and Missy because
    (00:53) Toph Bei Fong: We just end up where we were
    (00:53) Toph Bei Fong: before Xdevo did this all
    (00:53) fitzyhbbe: that meta + drillbur
    (00:53) Toph Bei Fong: Yeah
    (00:54) Toph Bei Fong: + Drilbur and no Sand
    (00:54) fitzyhbbe: Also I don't think missy is a problem honestly
    (00:54) Toph Bei Fong: It's used a whole fuckin' lot
    (00:54) Toph Bei Fong: but I agree
    (00:54) fitzyhbbe: its used a lot and theres no reason not to use it
    (00:54) fitzyhbbe: but normal teams can handle it
    (00:55) Toph Bei Fong: Yeah
    (00:56) Toph Bei Fong: So you got 3 days
    (00:56) Toph Bei Fong: lol
    (00:57) Toph Bei Fong: I stand with the thread's general attitude of keeping it gone
    (00:57) fitzyhbbe: right now I'm still thinking getting rid of regen
    (00:57) fitzyhbbe: with a krow testban at the same time
    (00:58) Toph Bei Fong: That seems
    (00:58) Toph Bei Fong: interesting
    (00:59) fitzyhbbe: If you go back to the after bw2 releasebut pre-suspect
    (00:59) Toph Bei Fong: ?
    (00:59) fitzyhbbe: full regen team + porygon was by far the best thing
    (00:59) fitzyhbbe: this would be that meta with missy, drillbur and no regen
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: Which is
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: interesting
    (01:00) Toph Bei Fong: But the thing is
    (01:01) Toph Bei Fong: The thread, pretty much aside from Arte wishes to ban it
    (01:01) Toph Bei Fong: To just say "no we wish to try this" would seem like ignoring a lot of people
    (01:01) fitzyhbbe: the main argument is centralisation
    (01:02) fitzyhbbe: The regen solution kinda beats that
    (01:02) fitzyhbbe: as without it, mienfoo isn't this amazing thing that switches in 10 times every game
    (01:02) Toph Bei Fong: That's true
    (01:02) Toph Bei Fong: I think your idea is worth a shot
    (01:03) Toph Bei Fong: You can post in the thread at some point and explain it. Too tired to do it now myself and I'm sure you can word it better than I
    (01:04) fitzyhbbe: ok
    (01:04) Toph Bei Fong: So that is
    (01:04) Toph Bei Fong: Regen+Krow joint suspect?
    (01:04) fitzyhbbe: yep
    [/HIDE]

    TLDR : Regenerator + Murkrow Testban.

    Right so as tier leaders we can't just make a decision like that without the other players opinions, so here goes.

    I don't really think anyone can argue that the tier is more diverse now that mienfoo has gone. If you look at the reason why it this is, it isn't because Mienfoo simply overpowered a lot of stuff or was insanely bulk. It was that it could repeatedly switch into and threaten things thanks to regenerator.

    So seen as we can't just complex ban (Rough Skin Carvanah, Vepix etc) this leaves us with banning regenerator or getting rid of Mienfoo. While it isn't a perfect solution banning this the other pokemon will still be good. Slowpoke isn't going to be abandoned as its still going to be the best Timburr counter and could beat pokes like Mienfoo and Drillbur in a 1 v 1. Foongus will get hit badly but as trak said without regenerator it'd open the door for other grass types and it'd like the lack of Murkrow (next para). I don't should even have to mention solosis, it doesn't use the ability.

    So I really don't think I need to explain testbanning Murkrow to anyone whos played the metagame a lot. It's by far the best pokemon with no reason for you to not use it. Unless you have prior knowledge of the set, your probably going to lose a pokemon figuring that out and then some more after that. I've seen most players call it out as broken or ask for a ban before.

    Going to say this again, opinions on the proposal?
     
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