a few of the staff have made up a list of demands

Discussion in 'PO Classics' started by zeroality, Mar 5, 2013.

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  1. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    A bunch of us got together and made up a list of what we'd like to see done at PO.

    If the list is accepted then I will come back (and possibly ete) and the majority of the signatories will call off their planned walk-out. If not then PO is going to lose about 25 staff members altogether.

    Personally it means I'd probably never come back at all as well.

    Note: Not sure if Deity will come back but he wanted to sign.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  2. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    People with virtually no contributions to PO and who have never been involved in staff issues deciding the fate of PO. Cute.
     
  3. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    Yeah not everyone who signed is a big contributor but there are some significant names on there. Oak also signed until he asked to be removed to work issues out. He said he'd re-sign once the issues are resolved and the demands are improved.

    Also I forgot to mention but anyone here who wants to add their signature is welcome to do so - just post.

    If you're afraid of personal retaliation then I understand but would appreciate if you PMed with support. I will keep it 100% confidential. If you are leery of PMing on PO then you can email zeroality@outlook.com anytime.

    Edit: Also ete saying he'd probably come back if they are implemented pretty much implies his signature.
     
  4. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    My signature was added originally on the basis that we were going to be taking this list to BR so it could be improved before it was made public, as there are a few points on there that I'm not 100% with - and a few that I'm not even 50% with.

    As such, I feel this was leaked before it was finalised, hence why my signature has been removed.

    Regardless, there are changes that need to be made on PO in order to help it improve.
     
  5. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    A handful of significant names and a fuckload of irrelevant users whose contributions consist of typing a command in a channel, but apparently that is the majority of the staff.

    I'm also aware some of them signed this for personal issues and don't give a shit about PO's best interests. For example asking for Key's demotion, despite the fact he is without any doubt one of the best members of the server staff. Another example that I know people involved in this asked for my demotion despite all my past contribution and how I constantly try to improve PO nearly everyday, but my name is not in that shit because I'm liked by the "significant names" in that list.
    I know that, I've working out issues with Oak for like an hour. If Oak wants he can post our convo here.
     
  6. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Fuck it, Oak is gone doing this myself















    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]
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  7. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    I disagree with points 2, 3, 7 ,8.
     
  8. Gl4ss

    Gl4ss Just a little sarcastic

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    I haven't signed the list of demands, didn't plan to. There are some valid points on there, but I don't agree with all of them. This whole issue has been approached in a way that is juvenile and shortsighted. I haven't been around in some time, but if you would be so kind, allow me my piece.

    SteelEdges
    Avatar Roku
    Treecko
    Jin Of The Gale
    Ethan
    Michael
    Nainil
    Infernal Poetry / Luck>Skill
    Heather Star
    Luna Child / Cirno
    RedJoker25
    Aurist
    Desolate
    Deity

    As far as I can tell, these are the names that are directly relevant to PO functioning. If I missed you I apologize, I haven't been around for some time. The threat at the moment is your departure, these people will 'leave'. I don't buy it, I don't honestly believe that everyone on that list is committed to the cause to the same extent as the person who wrote this list of demands. What's more, don't ever think you can't be replaced, and easily. When I departed, voluntarily, from the server I was a forum mod, server mod, NU tier leader, Academy co leader, and QC for NU, LU, and UU; I don't think I was sorely missed.

    What you're presenting here is a threat that is minor at best and perhaps worse, irrelevant. Are you truly convinced that 'Indigo Culture' is fostering the decline of PO? Or is it perhaps a natural consequence of coming to the end of a gen, increasing competition from a Smogon endorsed PS!, and a lack of developers. As much as I hate to say it, I feel that your concerns are overblown, you claim to fight for the future of the server but in reality this whole situation has come about as a result of our own complacency. All of us, not Key or Crystal or any specific name, everyone involved is guilty of complacency and unwillingness to confront problems as they develop.

    What you seek is communication, open and transparent, between auth. That is admirable and I think that is the way we should go; I believe that will make Indigo a more enjoyable environment with less infighting and bickering. Yet you go about this dramatic proposal behind the backs of the so-called problem cases, instead of directly confronting them and questioning them yourself. Problems of this magnitude cannot be solved with sweeping and sudden reform; it is entirely ridiculous to believe that simply accepting this list of demands will change Indigo into some magical wonderland of friendship and harmony in which all auth work cohesively to satisfy the every whim of our faceless user. Neither will an Indigo of corporate efficiency ever come to fruition, and personal feelings will always interfere with a selection process that involves flawed and biased people as its primary drivers. And even should these demands pass I believe you will be sorely disappointed when it does not in fact spontaneously 'save' the server.

    Perhaps this entire proposal was not worded exactly as you would have liked it, perhaps you meant it to come across as a list of negotiable points, but it certainly doesn't sound like it at the moment. Right now it sounds childish, it sounds whiny, and it does not sound like the words of people who want to change things for the advancement of the server, but rather those who would change things for their own gain or satisfaction with little regard for others. If real progress is what is sought by both sides there must be earnest, open, individual discussion regarding each and every point listed. Both groups must be prepared for compromise, both must be ready to set aside bitter feelings that may have arisen simply by the events that have already transpired and rather than pointlessly extolling the virtues of their own ideas, look at each point with their own faults in mind above all else.

    Hopefully you all get this done with minimal damage.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  9. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Steel spoke to me a bit about this and I never got shown this.

    I feel points 1 and 3 are kind of contradictory, you say personal opinions should be left out in modding decisions however you are essentially picking and choosing your auth. OK DN needs to go, he's never here and doesn't need the auth at all. Elements has quit anyway, but Key, while I'm not his biggest fan by any means is not a terrible admin. There are better but there are certainly worse. I'll be the first to criticise him but picking auth as you please is against what you are trying to enforce. Putting Key on thinner ice is better if anything.

    About Moogle. She is very bias, I won't dispute that and she's not the best leader ever. She is however a very large contributor to PO and a nice person. She's not the strongest of people no, she does get influenced by people however I think a reduced position is better than none, she's someone most everyone likes and she's rarely if ever abusive of her power in anything but recent auth decisions (namely Blitz and especially Hannah). (So I agree with it to an extent)

    About Zero and Oak being the only people allowed to do anything about auth decisions. Bs. First of all Zero, you've sort of quit then forced yourself into 50% of power (because you know, Lamp's barely here) that's not on, normally I would care less but with your recent attitude of using PO as an advertising board (seriously what the fuck was that) I don't trust you with 50% of this. I think another active person needs in at least.

    I think as creator of the simulator Coyo should be allowed to have a say on community decisions, not as an "overlord" but the same as any other high contributing dev (like you've done with Lamp) because that's what he is.

    About 5 I think strikes should be visible to auth or at least auth be told when they've been given a strike. (I believe now it's in the admin forum, I wouldn't know because I can't get in there)

    There's my disjointed and kinda lazy opinion

    Edit: Moogle sort of questioned this in Indigo so.
    I'm aware it was Steve that modded Hannah, however there was not a sign of public questioning on Crystal's behalf about it, despite saying Hannah had brushes with the rules on a regular basis the day before I believe. That's what I base that on
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  10. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Oak didn't question Steve's promotion either, I guess both of them are biased or both of them genuinely believed she was a decent candidate.

    Also both Oak and Crystal decided to demote Blitz and it was discussed in the admin forum. He got demoted because he was inactive as a mod and as a tour owner, you can ask Royalty about the latter because he was the one who complained about that. Everyone knows Crystal didn't like Blitz, but that wasn't what got him demoted.
     
  11. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    Here's what I think-

    Obviously, I have no access to Indigo so I cannot make proper judgements on what goes on there. I do not know anything about Moogle besides the instances where I ask her about a bug in VR, (happens quite often) so I had nothing against her. However I have heard about the favoritism and bashing of users that goes on there from a number of Indigo users, and quite frankly I'm not very surprised. BR, you do make a lot of contributions to PO. You definitely help out the community with your Tier Leading and decision making skills, however there is also no denying of your elitism and "circlejerking" nature.

    Even in your post right in this thread here:
    "Irrelevant users." You seem to think everyone who is not of a position of power is a random, and therefore has no say in anything important. How are we (irrelevant users) to contribute more if we're constantly denied from these positions due to biased opinions? For example when I asked you a simple question about my PO League application, you completely ignored me and apparently made fun of me in Indigo. I had to use Luck>Skill as the middleman to get a response.

    Touching on Gl4ss' point that the undersigned people's contributions will not be sorely missed. This is very true, and we know that our positions can be filled by new and eager users. However is this not the same case for the people "in positions of power?" Moogle and BR, while you guys contribute a lot, you should really focus on your attitudes towards other users not in your "clique". Just because you do contribute a lot to the community does not mean you can do whatever you want and use your contributions as an excuse for bashing on users, showing favoritism, etc.

    I have no problem with Key as a person, and he knows that. What I have a problem with is that he is not a model user for the position of an Administrator of PO and I'm sure there's no denying that. The constant sexual jokes and harassment on his part just deters me from respecting him as a leader. Sure he's a definitely cool guy but if he wishes to continue being an admin, I say that he needs to work on his behavior.

    Before you bash on my post, please take a step back and look at yourself; find some humility and seek ways to improve.
    I know for my part, I might talk a bit too much in VR and users might find that annoying. Who knows! If someone approached me with complaints I'd be more than glad to listen.
     
  12. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    You're making judgements and signing a petition which will make a lot of drastic changes to PO based on things you've heard?

    I think what he is trying to say is that if a lot of people who signed are threatening to resign it won't effect PO too much compared to some of the users involved with the changes that will happen (Moogle, Key, Elements, Coyo).
     
  13. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    Yes, I've seen many, many logs as well. I've also experienced a few of the effects, and I do not agree with the promotion of Hannah. Even Royalty, who is one of my very good friends on PO, lacks LU experience when it comes to leading the tier (Royalty, you play UU, NU and a bit of Ubers and we all know that). We have a huge LU community as well as many, many devoted players but none of them were even considered?

    Anyway, I signed this because I agreed with the majority of the points. It's evident to me that there is a problem and needed to be addressed, and I trust SteelEdges his desire to reform.

    I can't help but disagree with this. Elements and Key are just as, if not more easily replaced, than some of the undersigned that Gl4ss highlighted.
    SteelEdges
    Avatar Roku
    Treecko
    Jin Of The Gale
    Ethan
    Michael
    Nainil
    Infernal Poetry / Luck>Skill
    Heather Star
    Luna Child / Cirno
    RedJoker25
    Aurist
    Desolate
    Deity[/HIDE]
     
  14. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    I don't have much of an opinion on some of these and there are some I'm not sure of the wording on (1 is tricky to word correctly, flat banning DN from ever having higher positions ever seems strange unless he's done something bad recently I'm not aware of, coyo's new position needs clarifying somewhat since he still owns the place (sorry oak) Oak EDIT: It's cool, I know this is still coyo's sim and forums, and I don't have recent experience with many of the specific users pointed at), but some give the potential for a positive change. I would at least give this place another chance if I was not going to get random abuse and politics thrown at me by staff members. I like building stuff, not fighting people. And building stuff loses its fun when things get stressful and you feel unwanted.

    Also, I can finish the wiki upgrade and do it properly (i.e. not hard deleting a huge amount of content, and including all the extensions needed for compatibility with current content) in under two days and fix search, so long as deso's not muddled too much. I got myself a new wiki because I was bored and like wikis, and learned a lot while setting it up from scratch. Should be able to do everything except the skin at least.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2013
  15. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    I thought Royalty was temporary and Meeps has now been appointed?


    As someone already said, I feel this is the wrong way to go about it. "Do what we want or we resign".

    In my opinion, I see 7 of the users on the list who I think if resigned would have a negative impact on PO (just my opinion, what do I know right).

    Elements and Key have done a lot for PO and I think it's unfair the way they are being treated.
     
  16. Royalty

    Royalty Stay Trippy

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    1.
    1. A user's "coolness" in the eyes of any group of users is never to be taken into consideration for promotions or staff positions. Likewise, Indigo and/or Victory access will never be given or denied based on personal opinions. Authority is to be given solely on merit.
    Agree with this statement 100%. Positions are to be earned and personal differences should not be used as a basis of hiring/firing people.

    2.
    2. Crystal Moogle is to step down to administrator willingly and permanently, and remove herself from all ownership decisions.

    Reasons why we feel Crystal Moogle should step down:
    - Desire to be included in decision-making, but not actually providing solid discussion on many things.
    - Favoritism in selection of authority.
    - Favoritism in treatment of authority.
    - "Circlejerking" with certain members of the 'Indigo clique'.
    - Treatment of Blitzamirin
    - Letting #etc (and others) troll Victory Road, as well as trolling other users.
    - Not caring enough about specific things. (eg: Letting users get away with stuff when they shouldn't, taking forever to do simple updates, etc)
    I'm not in the loop of how owners decide things so I have no opinion on that as well as programming/updates.
    Just because she likes to talk to some people more than others isn't something she should be criticized on as everyone has people preferences.
    Blitzamirin was a useless mod and tour owner and the way the situation was handled is fine. Crystals opinion on Blitzamirin like a lot of ours was negative but that doesn't change the fact that he was fired because of the aforementioned uselessness, not personal vendetta.

    3.
    3. Darkness and Key are to be demoted to user. Elements, Key, and Darkness are not to be reauthed under any circumstances. Elements may remain a General Chat moderator. Key and Elements are not permitted to have Indigo access until they have changed their attitudes.
    I have no idea what darkness does and I can count the times I've seen him on with one hand.
    Elements and Key are being unfairly treated throughout this whole op post, they have contributed a lot to PO one being more on the server and the other the forums. If their 'immaturity' is just joking around in indigo/other private channels and not in the official ones idk why that is relevant here.

    4.
    4. Bashing users in Indigo and/or Victory will result in being kicked out of Indigo and/or Victory. This covers malicious activity - simply expressing frustration with an user from time to time does not count.
    Not sure really what to say on this but if it means that someone is actively trying to get someone they don't like in trouble using their power when they aren't actually breaking any rules/doing anything bad, as well as straight up harsh insults then I agree they should be punished. Gossiping (and not doing what I previously mentioned) about people that aren't well liked as well as discussing why shouldn't be punished.

    5.
    5. If anyone with Indigo and/or Victory access is malicious to a user (not friendly teasing in Tohjo, but actively being a dick) in any way, shape, or form, they get a strike. After three, they're out permanently.
    A bit different than 4 as this would pretty much be a rule 5 offence, seriously insulting someone in a public channel/PM. Obviously this shouldn't be tolerated.

    6.
    6. coyotte508 is to act as a developer only. He will not take part in any community decisions whatsoever, outside of development. coyotte will retain administrative authority over PO development, webserver, and the development forums.
    Don't see a problem with it although he is still a main figure and should at least be able to express his opinion on important matters.

    7.
    7. Professor Oak and zeroality are to be the only three owners with the authority to enact administrative decisions. Lamperi is welcome to intervene (even retroactively) if he feels strongly enough.
    Don't know what all falls into solely 'administrative decisions' and not sure who the 3rd person is since it seems you forgot to add them but I trust Oak's decision making skills. Steve and Crystal should also be there imo.

    8.
    8. coyotte508, Ethan, Lamperi, and Steve are to be the only four people on the server with eval access. Eval access is not to be abused in any shape or form.
    Disagree as I disagree with crystal being removed.

    9.
    9. Desolate is not to make changes, upgrades, or additions at all without explicit permission from Professor Oak and zeroality.
    Agree

    The list.
    Everyone on the list matters even if it is in a smaller role. That being said I feel only about 5-6 people on that list would have a big impact to PO if they left. I also feel like a good chunk of names on that list were approached solely for the purpose of getting easy signatures while them not knowing what is actually going on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 8, 2016
  17. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    Sorry, I'm not exactly in the loop of the tier leader situation and I guess I misunderstood. No offense intended for Royalty or those in charge for that, and I apologize.

    I agree with you on this. How would you propose to fix issues then? BR simply regards us as irrelevant randoms and laughs us off if we have no firm standing with our complaints.

    It's also unfair to those who have experienced the butt of their jokes, is it not? Name something they do that cannot be done by someone in the list I just posted.

    Anyway, I think i've shared my thoughts enough and there's no need to keep cluttering up this thread on my part.
     
  18. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    As I've said, after the whole discussion of this here and on the server, I'm quitting from my staff positions (LU Tier Leader, Wiki Admin, running the Twitter, Wiki QC, Side Metas Leader).
     
  19. Elements

    Elements BOOMER SOONER Forum Moderator Server Staff Forum Moderator Server Staff

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    I really don't have much to say since I'm completely swamped with work to really get into this debate, but I do want to apologize to anyone that I have insulted, anyone that took what I said to heart. It is not my intention to actually insult people...I usually just talk shit about like everything. Anyway, I apologize and while I don't agree with some of the points (Mainly about the overwhelming desire to have Crystal removed from all positions of power when some of those points are not really true) I don't really have the time to monitor this thread what with my work schedule.
     
  20. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Alright, after discussing this with people, taking some time to cool off, and thinking about it, I agree that Key and Elements were treated unfairly in this post, and BR also outside of this post in the discussions. A lot of the people who signed were/are acting emotionally rather than rationally, in my opinion. I find it an embarrassment that we never considered the fact that Elements and Key were never actually confronted about their behavior, and so I am fully in favor of having Key and BR retain their staff positions and Elements can stay with whatever he is doing right now. I won't comment on Crystal at the moment, as I feel like a lot of misinformation was spread, and I don't have an informed opinion on it.
     
  21. T-Dogg

    T-Dogg Member

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    Apparently I've missed a few discussions on the server, but I'd just like to say something to zero. Why do you think that, after not being involved in PO for ages (apart from advertising your twitter and sisters headphones), you can waltz in here and demand the removal of an owner, set yourself up as an owner and 'fix' the rules of PO?
     
  22. Key

    Key Avid Ideologist

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    This post is really half-assed and I might come-off as overly sarcastic, but keep in mind that it's 3 PM and I haven't slept, I'm also Key.

    - "Circlejerking" with certain members of the 'Indigo clique'.

    You may need to provide a definition of what you say is circlejerking. I don't really see how having a group of friends she talks to is an issue or concern.

    - Treatment of Blitzamirin
    Blitz was demoted because he was doing a less than satisfactory job. Every mod was evaluated, every mod was told there would be demotions.
    At the end of the evaluation, Blitz's mod "stats" over the period of time were less than exemplary. In addition to his lack of modding, he spend hours of his time online registering a bunch of alts, of all the things.
    He also blatantly refused to deal with a spanish user I had directed to him, despite being the only active auth at the time who could help them. I would classify that as poor attitude. And on top of all those legitimate reasons for him being deauthed, Crystal wasn't even the one to decide it, she left the decision to Oak, to prevent bias.
    Oak EDIT: I can confirm this.

    - Letting #etc (and others) troll Victory Road, as well as trolling other users.
    I could be wrong but if this is referring to the MEE Well, if I'm not mistaking both you and Oak knew what was going on at the time and didn't do so much as advise them against it.


    Moogle: I realize there will be users who insist that you not step down. However, please realize that this is the majority of the staff here — who are requesting that you do so. - zero

    >the majority of the staff

    While this does have a fair bit of support, 25 isn't even close to half. Don't try to make it sound like we're going against the masses by opposing this.


    3. Darkness and Key are to be demoted to user. Elements, Key, and Darkness are not to be reauthed under any circumstances. Elements may remain a General Chat moderator. Key and Elements are not permitted to have Indigo access until they have changed their attitudes.

    I can't even begin to see how this is an improvement, you claim bias then demand that the people you don't like be removed. Neither I nor Elements has received a single complaint. I'm always open for criticism if you just shoot me a PM. The fact that I would be removed any possible chance to have auth again, even if I did change, proves to me that this is just more of the same bias you claim to be against.

    4. Bashing users in Indigo and/or Victory will result in being kicked out of Indigo and/or Victory. This covers malicious activity - simply expressing frustration with an user from time to time does not count.

    This is acceptable given that the person being "bashed" is the one who gets to make the call of whether the statement was in jest or if they took it as a serious insult, otherwise I can see you just using somebody's joke toward another member as some lame excuse to remove them.

    5. If anyone with Indigo and/or Victory access is malicious to a user (not friendly teasing in Tohjo, but actively being a dick) in any way, shape, or form, they get a strike. After three, they're out permanently.

    Same as above.

    6. coyotte508 is to act as a developer only. He will not take part in any community decisions whatsoever, outside of development. coyotte will retain administrative authority over PO development, webserver, and the development forums.

    I'm in no way a fan of coyo as a decision maker or leader, but taking his program from him and giving him no control sounds like a good way to lose one of our very limited developers. Would support giving him equal power as Lamperi.

    7. Professor Oak and zeroality are to be the only three owners with the authority to enact administrative decisions. Lamperi is welcome to intervene (even retroactively) if he feels strongly enough.

    I don't see how it's fair that you can come and put yourself on top of this pyramid and disregard the contributions of Crystal and Steve. They do deserve to have a say in something they invested a lot of effort in.



    If I didn't address a point, assume I agreed with the point, but not necessarily how you're handling it.

    I actually agree with a lot of the things here, but the execution of the ideas could use some editing.
    For starters, perhaps encouraging communication among users if something they are doing bothers you. I am willing to make myself tolerable in any way I can, but it's really not possible when nobody confronts me about it. Not only this, I think any of you could address your concerns with any of the named users here and we would take your opinions into consideration. See how half these issues are solved simply by discussing matters rather than going behind the backs of others with "all or nothing" lists of demands? If you're not willing to negotiate something, this is hardly even worth discussing, it's just being immature
    .[/HIDE]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2013
  23. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    Remember when Crystal left? How bad PO was getting? Then she came back and PO picked back up... I don't know why you'd want to remove her, even if she's not the most objective person. PO's definitely better for having her. I don't particularly care about the rest of it, I just don't see what strife Moogle causes...
    Also
    wait
    wait
    >Harlot
    >>>>>Harlot
    wat
     
  24. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    +1 to Key and Elements for this
    He's right, there should've been individual confrontations. Key willingness to make himself tolerable is what we need from everyone we're "mad" at.

    If they really do change their attitudes I don't know about you guys but I'm more than willing to let this all fade away and go back to playing Pokemon

    zeroality, sorry but I have to unsign the demands.. we should be able to negotiate, even though change is required.
     
  25. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Mine is a wall of text basically with answers, and I'm not sure if anyone would like my opinions, but here they are. I have nothing against anyone who opted to sign as that means you have some form of want for change here, and I respect all your opinions. This is based on my logic and my theory really. I don't know the inner working all that well as someone who had been a mod or in indigo longer than 2 months, but it's still a view none the less. I just want to note that this is entirely looking at it unbiased and from an area of grey rather than showing personal favor to anyone. So I encourage you all with access to read it, if not that is fine with me.

    First of all, we apologize. We are sorry it came to this. We have waited, hoped, and tried to encourage change; but we're cynical. We respect Moogle and have nothing but warm feelings for many of you at PO. However, after long and painful deliberation, we feel this needs to be done.

    1. A user's "coolness" in the eyes of any group of users is never to be taken into consideration for promotions or staff positions. Likewise, Indigo and/or Victory access will never be given or denied based on personal opinions. Authority is to be given solely on merit. Honestly, so far this is one of the biggest agreements really Zero. The one thing as far as channel staff is concerned is how much people want and are contributing. That is our current outlook to the channel staff, and as far as Auth in terms of mod+ that’s an outlook based on where it’s needed. Mods are to deal with tohjo mainly on the server and are made based on current ability to cover the chat quality and if they are contributing regularly there. Other forms of auth as you know are discussed openly really if not at least between Oak and Moogle and anyone else if they really need an opinion.

    2. Crystal Moogle is to step down to administrator willingly and permanently, and remove herself from all ownership decisions.

    Reasons why we feel Crystal Moogle should step down:
    - Desire to be included in decision-making, but not actually providing solid discussion on many things.
    - Favoritism in selection of authority.
    - Favoritism in treatment of authority.
    - "Circlejerking" with certain members of the 'Indigo clique'.
    - Treatment of Blitzamirin
    - Letting #etc (and others) troll Victory Road, as well as trolling other users.
    - Not caring enough about specific things. (eg: Letting users get away with stuff when they shouldn't, taking forever to do simple updates, etc)

    Moogle: I realize there will be users who insist that you not step down. However, please realize that this is the majority of the staff here — who are requesting that you do so. – zero
    As long as moogle contributes I don’t care if she’s admin or owner, the fact is she does a fair job. Point one can be justified, but that can be said for most of us with a lack of willingness to make choices unless someone takes a lead, such as oak. Next two are pretty lame for demands as Moogle just sits in front of a computer and does what she does unless one of us calls upon here to do something server side in regards to her auth. To my knowledge in all she just waits for a consensus for something to be done + never scolds nor praises any of us auth really as well same for users, so that’s a neutral territory without seeing how it is acted on. Can’t respond on next issue. Treatment of blitz I’m 50/50 on really. As far as I was concerned he did his job as an auth, and could have just got caught on a bad week in which auth were watched to keep up activity and expected to be doing their job, but we all know blitz and his neutrality use of power. I love the guy and he is a great friend, but I wouldn’t have been quick to dismiss the guy or at least talk with him directly on what they of his performance, but it was a decision between oak and moogle, so you are basically starting a list that would mean oak should be demoted or something as well, because as to my knowledge oak had the same opinion. Ok, letting others troll VR, honestly we’re all somewhat to blame for no one saying that we should stop nor anyone willing to tell some of us that are going too far. I can say that I’m one of those jack***es that argue with VR members because of my bad personality. As well it’s not so much trolling users as it is that when dealing with a troll or something arguments in public channels are going to see confrontation. As for the last one, honestly can you look at that and just blame moogle? If anything we all know Oak is going to be the guy that will take care of troublesome auth and scold them out. As well simple updates do require communication on several ends depending what it is. She does try to get to them when needed, but if it requires someone on another end for them to happen she can’t help that one.

    3. Darkness and Key are to be demoted to user. Elements, Key, and Darkness are not to be reauthed under any circumstances. Elements may remain a General Chat moderator. Key and Elements are not permitted to have Indigo access until they have changed their attitudes. Darkness as far as I see when he’s on doesn’t do anything server side, Key is honestly a damn good admin minus his perceived attitude at times, and Elements well he asked for a de-auth recently really so yeah…But in any case not everyone you want for a leadership position will be perfect or have the greatest attitude, but if they are able to do their job and willingness to contribute is there what difference does it make? He won’t be a perfect person, but he has a presence and isn’t a background figure like most auth are. As well he takes the job serious and is up for compromise. I honestly dislike his attitude at times, but I know he like others when talked with are going to make decisions (with good judgment I might add) as an auth. He was given this position for a reason, so I can have faith he’s going to do what’s right unless he goes off the deep end or something and needs to have them removed.

    4. Bashing users in Indigo and/or Victory will result in being kicked out of Indigo and/or Victory. This covers malicious activity - simply expressing frustration with an user from time to time does not count.
    Ok I can agree this is correct. It harbors bad feelings between staff and creates problems. I will admit that at times I am exactly like this because honestly it’s in my personality. And honestly if you let everyone in VR who signed see this, I’d personally like to express my apologizes for being a jack*** of a user to some of the VR staff. Meaning maybe it’s best for some of us to look at ourselves and see if we really need a time out from other users and off PO or just certain channels if we are really going to make change for the best. If it goes to far, I’d say give the person a warning and if they persist then any of us should be kicked out of VR or Indigo, as long as people are willing to confront the problem while it’s there and no avoid it.

    5. If anyone with Indigo and/or Victory access is malicious to a user (not friendly teasing in Tohjo, but actively being a dick) in any way, shape, or form, they get a strike. After three, they're out permanently.
    Basically #4 but with all public channels, and if this is the current system or anything an owner should talk with the users in question so they know what to change if this were to work. Not secretly keep the strikes to themselves, and let someone go without informed consent, as that just harbors bad grudges.

    (4 and 5 may seem the same but 4 is really targeted at other staff members while 5 is towards users.)

    6. coyotte508 is to act as a developer only. He will not take part in any community decisions whatsoever, outside of development. coyotte will retain administrative authority over PO development, webserver, and the development forums.
    This is a compromise with Coyo, so the stuff with moogle, coyo, and the aforementioned Key/Elements/Darkness should be worked out separately. Making demands that are addressing specific users as a whole require that both parties are willing to compromise. Coyo pretty much acts as a dev only now anyway and only intervenes when asked or has something he could use help on. Again that is only to my knowledge but he has Oak on here to run things server side while he has the oversight of everything. The man was a main creator in seeing this, and as a part he probably wants to see this place thrive, and not having part in decisions probably would hurt him if he truly cares. So at least having a consenting opinion if it matters should at least be allowed otherwise this is not a compromise just blunt demands favoring one side.

    7. Professor Oak and zeroality are to be the only three (two*) owners with the authority to enact administrative decisions. Lamperi is welcome to intervene (even retroactively) if he feels strongly enough.
    That’s a compromise with the other owners such as Steve and Moogle if any compromise regarding her are reached based on your demands. Oak as we know pretty much makes some of the best informed decisions, as well you have that leader mentality Zero, and have a more lax and understanding leader attitude in my opinion, so that evens out and allows for better decisions rather than people usually agreeing with Oak in general, although some of us should speak up more as part of the community if we are aware of a situation and offer our opinions.

    8. coyotte508, Ethan, Lamperi, and Steve are to be the only four people on the server with eval access. Eval access is not to be abused in any shape or form.
    Again, compromise with all involved with current access and who will have the access from here on out, and who actually needs when a situation is in question.

    9. Desolate is not to make changes, upgrades, or additions at all without explicit permission from Professor Oak and zeroality.
    I have no problem with this, but you guys don’t give Deso enough credit. If it’s minor stuff that won’t result in a huge loss or anything, obviously he probably shouldn’t need a controlling situation like what you are suggesting, but if it’s big and has potential losses in question on either the forums or wiki, that should be crossed with you guys first.

    -----
    Undersigned, the following: I can probably come up with some good reason for most of you signing this for one reason or another.

    [size=x-large]zeroality[/size] (this is my John Hancock)
    SteelEdges-You are an advocate for change steel, I actually like that you are taking initiative, but feel you expect too much for this place to run perfectly.
    Finchinator-You have a problem usually with the owners and or any authority figures running it. Finch given the topic that you aren’t ever willing to go have your problems heard, as well you express a small immaturity when expecting to have people agree from you, keeps your opinions in from mattering much in your head. Put confidence in your opinion like you do for QC, in OU, talk problems out you have with Oak/BR because they will hear you out, and you’ll be more respected for it like I respect you.
    Blitzamirin-Dude got caught at a bad time apparently with auth evaluations, but you are usually mixed on power usage. You fell on both sides honestly. You probably signed this because you lost auth want some change. That’s good but you also fall on the other side because really you did use power for your own benefits. I love you as a friend but you can’t say you really argue with it. However I agree that a sudden de-auth without Oak/Moogle talking it over with you was not warrented.
    Avatar Roku-Not sure about you roku
    Zzyzx Road-See above with Roku
    Treecko-Same as above, possible treatment of users or the way the community is heading.
    Jin Of The Gale-Jin, nice and vocal, however dude I see that you have always been tense and stick to the rules too strictly in my opinion. You obviously have problems with people, voice them whether it be in PM or in a private channel. Not sure if you have, but what I see from most of the people wanting this “change” it’s unexpected, without warning, and without proper compromise.
    Ethan-You probably have your own reasons I have no deduced yet.
    Michael-Michael I will say that you expect too much from people in positions of power. Not everyone will be a great user, nor a model leader or anything, but the reason we’re all here doing this is because we have a willingness to contribute to this great project. If you have your problems voice them, like you did that one time with me, I respected you for it, although I now know you don’t think highly of me, but voice them more. More people are reserved on here, someone needs to take direction like you do.
    BeastCharizard-Again pretty unsure about you BC
    Water-Too many people without a real reason that I can’t figure out signed this. Except they think the change they want is for the better.
    Drapht-You’ve been here, seen the inner workings of the place, and in indigo. You know what kind of people our leaders are, and the fact you do, leads to you having a greatly informed decision on it.
    Nainil-Nainil as a friend I can see and know your frustration with people on the server and can understand why you’d want to quit. I can’t nor will come up with a counterpoint here as that’s just wrong on my side.
    Navz-WHY??? You people are making this hard.
    VuvuzelaBzz-???
    New Breed-Unsure really on why here. Going to ask serverside
    Infernal Poetry / Luck>Skill-Luck you like drapht and some others know this inner working and have only valid opinions on stuff. You see the higher rung and know it better than I ever can at the moment and have a better opinion, which I’d like to hear on this.
    Heather Star-Same as luck, you’ve been here, understand it, and do get stuff done. So I can easily respect your opinion on this heather, so same goes for my reasoning for Luck.
    uso-see navz.
    Luna Child / Cirno- Imo, I think the way users are treated overall. You want change I guess on how you view the state of the server and always have good intentions for the users at heart.
    Sov-see uso, then see navz.
    RedJoker25-Same as cirno imo.
    Meeps-This one confuses me like New Breed. Going to ask server side.
    Harlot-???
    Aurist-You’re a vocal person aurist and are always going to have some sort of opinion, and probably agree with this over the current state as you always will take the side with people in need from what I’ve seen. However, you also have a level head and will probably see compromise here and there and understand it.
    Desolate-You like luck, Ethan, heather, and drapht imo have the most grievances to speak of and with your signature on here makes me believe that some form of change is needed. We all give you a lot of flak for what you do, and that is wrong as in the absence of others should not be coming from us if we want to evolve into a better community overall.
    Meh-Hm..this is a tough one. I really don’t know meh, personal reasons I guess.
    Deity-I don’t know you…[/HIDE]

    None of you imo outside a few others have decided to make things known as problems, so I guess me, like some others will be let these problems be known in my opinion. Being non confrontational and presenting this list in this way doesn't really help either parties really. It's just going to give us all a reason to continue arguing without a real compromise or results.
     
  26. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    Remember when you guys were actually fighting for something?

    I get the feeling I'm one of the evil cool "cliquey" people referred to here, especially since I was never told about this. BR already did a good enough job tearing this apart point by point, but I would advise you consider the following, in any case.
    1. Move this thread to the GD or cstaff forum, or remove the following signatories: Blitzamirin, Zzyzx Road, BeastCharizard, Drapht, Nainil, Navz, uso, Sov. It's possible I missed a few names, because I don't know everybody with access to this forum, or that one of the names I listed doesn't belong on the list. In any case, anybody without access to this forum should not have been shown this thread, especially before it was finalized. Their names should be removed and whoever leaked this to them should be punished appropriately. If this thread is published in a staff forum by a staff member, I'm assuming it's done in that member's capacity as staff. To see apparent evidence of leaking within the OP indicates an obvious breach of the basic staff rules.
    2. The part about CM is rude and disingenuous. This isn't a crusade against injustice; half of these people probably supported Shadowfist as forum/server auth when he blatantly abused powers for months or more. Weavile is exactly right, this looks like a power grab by someone who's lately been using this subforum and the PO forum in general for nothing but advertising. If you want to do something good for the community, at least try to instate a check to your own power from someone who doesn't abandon the community at the first sign of any decadence (yes, I'm bringing up 2012 for the second time in this post, because the actions of those who left then and are claiming the moral upper road against those who actually put a stop to coyo are hypocritical).
    3. Drop this "planned walk-out" crap. That's not even how you do boycotts, and it has no impact. If a user is serious about changes he wants to see in the community, he should leave until the changes he wants to see get made. Thus, I would again suggest removing signatories from the list until you have a list of people who are already gone and don't plan to come back unless they have their way.
    4. This grouping of topics is improper. You could get a lot of users to agree to the ones like 4 and 5, but you're letting the "perfect" (actually terrible) be the enemy of the good. Quite frankly a big list of apparently unrelated points that apparently certain signatories didn't even agree to all of before signing (e.g. oak) suggests a lack of organization. I doubt I'm the only one who would at least like to see a sentence or two explaining how all of these things move toward a goal to better the community.

    Not sure what else to say other than that this is a sad state of affairs and it looks as though half of the signatories are being taken advantage of, without full knowledge of what they're signing to or what it entails. Especially those who aren't reading this debate.

    EDIT: here's an example of the sort of thing I was afraid was happening. I'll leave the user anonymous, but if this is the general sentiment among some of the signatories who aren't reading this thread, it's irresponsible to have them listed.
    (17:21:32) <? to waehofen> oh
    (17:21:36) <? to waehofen> i feel kind of bad then
    (17:21:54) <? to waehofen> personally i don't have any ill will against the people discussed
    (17:21:54) <? to waehofen> because i dont know them
    (17:22:25) <? to waehofen> but, if it's a general feeling among important contributors to po then im w/ them
    (17:22:41) <? to waehofen> i should probably be questioning it but
    (17:22:43) <? to waehofen> idk tbh
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2013
  27. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    I was going to make a serious long post but

    (11:08) zeroality: i am no longer willing to neogitate changes
    (11:08) zeroality: i want the 9 demands met, period

    what's the point?
     
  28. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    This is definitely not what we are looking for, but there is a significant core of contributors who understand the situation who have signed. To say that no change is needed seems crazy. Like I said, I am perfectly happy to come up with a compromise and make this work out for both parties, but so far all I have seen from most people on both sides is hostility with no productivity.

    I am 100% against this view, and don't see why zero is taking this stance, but it is his stance. Not everyone who has participated.
     
  29. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    That's exactly what's wrong with the attitude of a majority of Indigo. That right there. Every user and contributor should be valued.

    At Game Corner they are. This is totally the wrong attitude to have. And it's driven away very valuable contributors. Read: Arceus, harlot, ete. Yeah Arceus didn't get to do much for PO before he left but just watch what he's gonna do for GC (and already has actually).

    It wasn't intended to be behind the backs of Indigo. But as you saw from the reaction today, we _obviously_ had to discuss in private. This was leaked before we were ready and you saw the result. This only affirms that we were indeed correct in going about it in secret until we were ready.

    Faceless user? Steel, myself, and a few others drafted up the original version. Then most of the signatories made suggestions. Then Oak added his input.

    Obviously this isn't a magic wand but we all think it's an excellent starting point. And something we could build upon.

    If you were one of the ones on the receiving end of trolling, disrespect, and/or insulting then perhaps you wouldn't feel that it's simply a whim.

    Key is not terrible? Are you kidding me? He is actively MALICIOUS to people all the time and makes Indigo a terrible place to be for many of us. You have no idea how many complaints I get about this guy.

    Advertising board? So you don't think I deserved to ask for a favor in exchange what I've done for this community? Okay. I guess I just shit all over PO for around 3 years right?

    So why haven't we gotten a replacement for Deity? Someone was supposed to make the forums all awesome and stuff. How about ete and the wiki? etc

    None of which are false.

    He had someone add Sacred Ash to battle factory and abused it - only auth 4 can use it. He's done other abusive things as well. I guess you haven't noticed since you aren't here that often - and when you do come, you stay on the wiki. (not meant as a dig)

    Did you not read the post? Many of us have tried to change things with no avail. We feel this is our only option and apparently it's working. It's gotten everyone's attention in a big way.

    I've tried PMing Moogle long messages on the forums and having discussions with her. It didn't do much. Plus there was that massive SWOT that went nowhere. I know I said I'd do stuff but I also kept waiting for Moogle to take the initiative since she started the thread but... When she did nothing that seriously demotivated me from doing anything and is a big reason why I quit.

    ALSO a major thing I should point out here is that WE DIDN'T GET TO DO IT THE WAY WE WANTED. The plan was to talk to BR - and that was obviously a good plan. He had many good valid points about the list of demands and was actually making good points about why Moogle shouldn't step down. If not for the leak, BR might have even defused this before it got to Moogle or anyone else at all.

    To the leaker: if you're reading this, I honestly don't know what the hell you think you were doing. Trying to help PO or sabotage us? Whatever your intention, the result was clearly the latter and both groups are far worse off for it. Congratulations.

    If we had been allowed to do this the way we wanted, like I said the list would've most likely be very different and it may have even not included the request that Moogle stepped down. I know I said at GC that item was non-negotiable for me but, again, as I said above - BR was making really good points I hadn't considered.

    If Oak and I had been given the opportunity to talk to him about it first, this would have gone A LOT better - I can pretty much guarantee you that.

    What's done is done but I want you to know that you (the leaker) have done PO a great disservice. And I have a feeling that your intention was the total opposite. You really fucked up.

    Well I'm too tired to read the rest of the thread and I've pretty much said my two cents.

    As for Key and Elements - I don't think any staff members have been complained about more, except maybe coyotte. Not even DN, Moogle, old Steve, Navy, Kioku, Ginku, kokoloko, etc.
     
  30. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    How about this: take your name off of the list until every signatory is properly vouched for with a post in this thread.

    Also, a good compromise would be to handle each group of related points separately, rather than some laundry list of personal vendettas of the OP. If you target a specific user and you leak the petition to users who shouldn't be seeing it before the target is allowed to make a compromise, that's deserving of some sort of public censure, not serious consideration. The point I'm trying to stress here is that the way in which this was carried out is highly improper, and it reflects poorly on everyone who voluntarily stays signed on despite that knowledge.

    EDIT: just read the above; still, the main point stands about making sure everyone signed on means it 100%

    EDIT2: I didn't think this was relevant, but if you really don't know who made the leak and want to do some detective work:
    (17:18:48) <? to waehofen> it's in #ProjectPO
     
  31. RedJoker25

    RedJoker25 Resident Lurker Server Moderator Article Contributor Server Moderator Article Contributor

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    So I signed the demands list after thinking it over a night and owe an explanation as to why. While I don't agree with all of the demands, the ones I do agree with were enough to sway my decision.

    1 - Access to Indigo. Definitely agree with allowing it only on merit. If you want a channel to have friends or whatever, private channels exist. In addition, I personally believe that staff channels should be kept primarily to business. Some random conversations are fine but remember that as a staff channel, people are in there that don't necessarily want to hear about how [user] is a shithead or [other user] is a cunt. Also applies to VR but whatever.

    2 - Crystal Moogle stepping down. CM's contributions as well as the fact I don't think any one person is at fault means I don't support this.

    3 - Darkness, Key, and Elements. For Key / Elements, see 2. For Darkness, I don't think I've even seen him on, much less enough to form an opinion.

    4 - Bashing within staff. I don't care if you have problems with other staff members, but either take it to them or find somewhere else. From what I have seen, probably the main reason developers don't stick around.

    5 - Bashing outside staff. Is an explanation really needed?

    6 - coyotte508. Developer, not sure what I can really say on this. If it weren't for him, none of us would be here. I'm not sure I've seen any authoritative decisions by him, either, so...yeah.

    7 - Professor Oak, zeroality, and Lamperi as owners. See #2. I'm fairly certain none of the people involved [including CM, coyo, or whoever else] would abuse so...yeah.

    8 - Eval. No comment because no clue. Whoever needs it, I guess.

    9 - Desolate changing stuff. I'd prefer if it was 'explicit permission from whoever's in charge of whatever thing it is' though I'm not sure how that'd affect things since I'm not sure of Desolate's scope.

    As for 'improper grouping of topics', I'm not denying that that may well be the case. However, since this is the list given to me, I made my decision based on how I felt about each individual topic. Maybe I'm too idealistic in hoping people could get along or at least not make dislike blatantly obvious.
     
  32. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So. It appears the main problem now is that Zero is not willing to negotiate... that's not an option. This is quickly losing support and the web of misinformation and ill informed signings (no offense to those people) falling apart.
    Change does need to happen and nobody disputes that, however the manner in which Zero especially is going about it is problematic to say the least. So Zero it's negotiate or give up. PO has learned that change is needed, and it will probably happen, if your goal was to help PO, you've done it. If it was to grab power and flush out those you don't like. Jog on, if those were your intentions you sicken me.
     
  33. zeroality

    zeroality Artificial Insanity

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    I'm willing to negotiate but I'll let Oak handle it from here on out.

    Also:

    I think those who know me well enough know that the above statement is completely true. I have always had nothing but good intentions for PO. Okay well except maybe the Twitter thing but I honestly saw that as repayment. And yes I am trying to take over but only because I know I will do the right thing and it's not like I am trying to become overlord. I want to work with Oak - and Lamp/Steve if they're willing.

    I'm willing to bend on the demands but everyone needs to calm down. I'll let Oak talk to BR and we'll see where it goes from there.
     
  34. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    If you sign the demands list you're showing your support behind everything in the OP; you can't sign it and then say "oh, but I think this demand is inappropriate" or "oh, but I don't agree that this is an issue". If you don't support everything in the list you shouldn't be signing it at all.
     
  35. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    I can't overstate how much I prefer Roku's option (compromise) to this. To anybody in this thread who agrees with only part of the list, you're in the majority (in fact 4 & 5 are pretty non-controversial, so it's a pretty big majority). You are the kingmakers here and you should be the ones offering a better version of this list instead of following along with something you don't even like.
     
  36. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Yeah because a post I made while being really upset represents my attitude.


    You know why was I upset but for the everyone else:
    Crystal is the only reason of why I am currently here instead of trolling PO with the #etc people. She personally asked me to start contributing to PO and unlike many other people she actually appreciated my contributions and helped me to grow here in PO. For obvious reason I didn't enjoy the false accusations and personal attacks aimed at her.


    I can show you countless proof of me supporting minor contributors and helping them grow in PO if you don't believe me, like this, this, this, this, this and this (Convincing Soren to not quit while I was trying to make him a TD in the admin forums).


    Another thing is
    Rainboᴡ Dash: Celestial Phantom how was our relation before you got into Indigo?
    Rainboᴡ Dash: Was I nice to you?
    Rainboᴡ Dash: be honest
    Celestial Phantom: nope
    Celestial Phantom: but i know you were joking
    Celestial Phantom: just like key and meh
    Rainboᴡ Dash: were you in my clique?
    Celestial Phantom: nope
    Rainboᴡ Dash: Wanna know who got you promoted?
    Rainboᴡ Dash: Me
    Rainboᴡ Dash: whoever complains about me being biased
    Rainboᴡ Dash: can suck my dick

    and Michael should be aware of the fact that I was the one who told luck that he should be the monotype Gym leader.


    If I am what is wrong with Indigo, then I don't want to be right.



    I don't want to wait for Oak. You talk with me, I want to personally talk with you and discuss this. Our conversation should be significantly better this time, because I'm not as mad as I was before.
     
  37. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Professor Oak
    This is pretty much it. The list should not have been leaked until we had time to talk to BR first off, and that chat with BR would have resolved many of the problems with this list of demands. I've yet to check the updated list of demands, but I am glad that most people are reaching an agreement that this set of demands is flawed.

    The main problem is people not communicating - hey ho, where have we heard that before? Me and Moogle have tried our hardest to improve communication between people, but if people aren't willing to communicate, problems such as this are going to arise. If you need to air something out legitimately and politely instead of just bashing, approach the person in question. If you cannot do that, come to an owner and we shall do so on your behalf.

    To whoever it was that leaked - I am disappointed. This drama could have easily been resolved before it even started and you not decided to do so. You may have had the best intentions in mind at the time, but in hindsight, was it really a good idea? I'll leave you with that.

    btw more people need to trust me when I say BR is good.

    I know this topic is locked, but I needed to say my piece.


    oh, and this was posted here cos not everyone in Indigo has access to Server Staff.
     
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