[RBY] Aginair in NU

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Dre., Feb 21, 2013.

  1. Dre.

    Dre. Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    10
    This may have been addressed in another thread, but I didn't want to bump a dead thread.

    Just wanted to get discussion going on whether this should be banned or not. I'm personally on the fence.

    The main problem with aginair is that thunderbolt and blizzard hit a lot of the meta SE. Another problem is that its true counters (rocks and gastly) are otherwise sub-optimal options. The rock/grounds are otherwise inferior to marowak, and omastar is otherwise inferior to seadra.

    It depends on whether people think this a worthy ban-criteria or not.

    At the same time, this is RBY NU, so even if we all agreed to ban it nothing would probably be done about it.
     
  2. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,471
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    Dr. Fuji
    Dragonair itself isn't broken and banning it is only going to hide the problem what we need to decide on is whether or not to ban agility + trapping moves in conjunction.
     
  3. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    3
    @Mewthree
    You mean like this thread was discussing?
     
  4. Dre.

    Dre. Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    10
    That's just wrap in general, and in OU.

    Talking about aginair in NU. I'm not saying to ban nair. I'm asking whether agiwrap should be banned on nair. It really depends on what the criteria for banning is.
     
  5. waterwizard

    waterwizard New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2011
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Isn't wrap already banned in general? So agility-wrap would fall under that umbrella. Without wrap, Dragonair does not centralize NU at all. RBY2K10 has never had a problem with her, sans wrap. She's thoroughly mid-NU without it.
     
  6. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
    Wrap is not banned in general. Neither is Agility+Wrap.

    Knowing PO staff, if a ban goes through (which it should, and it should be of Agility+Wrap - Dratini was banned from RBY LC because of it, sense a pattern?), it'll be of Dragonair. I don't fancy that ban at all, since Dragonair has a very good niche working for her with Blizzard/Thunderbolt, Hyper Beam, TWave and other moves, plus and an unique typing.
    I do not think the problem is big enough to merit a ban of the whole Pokémon (who plays RBY NU on the ladder anyway?), so either, ban Agility+Wrap, or don't ban anything. Banning Dragonair is not a pretty solution in the least.

    (PS. Your Marowak/Seadra does not wall Fearow, so rocks do have very legitimate other uses.)
     
  7. Dre.

    Dre. Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    10
    Obviously if I was for the ban I'd only be for banning agi-wrap, not dragonair itself.

    Also dragonair can't learn hyper beam.

    If walling fearow is a rock's only other use then they're probably still inferior. Fearow is good, but I have trouble seeing how physical sweepers justify a spot on a team if aginair is legal. I could be wrong though.
     
  8. lilithdies

    lilithdies New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    i would probably prefer agility+wrap banned on dragonair, but would prefer no ban over banning the whole pokemon. currently in NU, i feel almost obligated include both dragonair and omastar.

    i'd like to make a comparison to dragonite in OU, coz while personally i'm on the fence about dragonite, i suspect most of us would be unhappy with a extra broken version of dragonite - which dragonair arguably is.

    unlike dragonite, dragonair's only weakness is ice, is only 2x weak to it, and unlike dragonite it actually resists thunderbolt. while its special defensiveness is only two-thirds that of dragonite ((325*238)/(385*298)), ice moves, the only special attacks i know of that threaten it (other than maybe abra's psychic, which does not 2hko) threaten it with 75% less hp-scaled damage. also oh my god it can switch in on so many things (not just electric, but fire and grass which actually exist in NU too).

    but that's for all the ice attacks we know and love in OU. dragonair is in NU, where there are no viable ice types and special stats are significantly lower.

    Staryu's Blizzard (8/8) 53%-62% 103%-121% 59% 58% >Dragonair
    (Dragonair's Thunderbolt (24/24) 52%-61% 101%-119% 63% 57% >Staryu)

    Omastar's Blizzard (8/8) 73%-86% 142%-168% 78% 79% >Dragonair
    Seadra's Blizzard (8/8) 64%-75% 125%-147% 72% 70% >Dragonair
    Wigglytuff's Blizzard (8/8) 44%-52% 86%-101% 46% 48% >Dragonair

    let's compare for fun:

    Jynx's Blizzard (8/8) 131%-154% 254%-299% 149% 143% >Dragonite
    Starmie's Blizzard (8/8) 90%-105% 174%-205% 105% 99% >Dragonite
    Chansey's Ice_Beam (16/16) 74%-87% 143%-169% 87% 81% >Dragonite
    Lapras's Blizzard (8/8) 131%-154% 254%-299% 141% 142% >Dragonite
    Cloyster's Blizzard (8/8) 121%-143% 235%-277% 133% 132% >Dragonite
    Tauros's Blizzard (8/8) 72%-85% 140%-165% 84% 79% >Dragonite
    Snorlax's Blizzard (8/8) 69%-82% 134%-157% 71% 75% >Dragonite
    Golem's Explosion (8/8) 69%-82% 136%-160% 81% 76% >Dragonite
    Snorlax's Selfdestruct (8/8) 80%-94% 156%-183% 91% 87% >Dragonite
    Exeggutor's Explosion (8/8) 63%-74% 123%-145% 75% 69% >Dragonite
    Rhydon's Rock_Slide (16/16) 52%-62% 102%-120% 55% 57% >Dragonite

    Paralysis

    perhaps even moar importantly, twave or bodyslam are on almost every OU pokemon and paralysis is nearly a ohko on dragonite. but dragonair will still do significant damage after being paralyzed as it dies slower, and it's harder to wall blizz/bolt in NU. dragonair is a threat without wrap in NU, but we can't say the same about dragonite. (for that matter, dragonair doesn't need to use agility whenever it comes in either, making it even harder to stop it from setting up when it does choose to.)

    and good luck paralyzing it - check out these frequent twave users:
    Dragonair's Hyper_Beam (8/8) 88%-103% 172%-202% 97% 96% >Abra

    not really worth picking over bolt/blizz but hey, they find out your set after you ohko! (ok fine this is mostly for lulz)

    Dragonair's Wrap_Once (64/64) 9%-11% 17%-20% 9% 9% >Abra

    that's one turn of wrap, not one wrap (18%-55%).

    Dragonair's Thunderbolt (24/24) 52%-61% 101%-119% 63% 57% >Staryu

    twave on wigglytuff admittedly could help i guess.

    Stalling

    staryu is the only viable recover user in NU (and recover isn't even that useful on it - twave/surf/bolt/blizz is the most usual set), so PP stalling between a rock and one or more recover users to avoid any "permanent" damage is also less viable. and once dragonair runs out of wraps, once again it's still quite a threat with just blizzard and thunderbolt.

    gastly can switch in on wrap but agility dragonair can take 4 night shades and so can still win if both are at full hp (admittedly unlikely if it got agility off, but gastly's sort-of-a-check at best):
    Dragonair's Thunderbolt (24/24) 20%-24% 40%-47% 25% 22% >Gastly
    Dragonair's Blizzard (8/8) 26%-31% 51%-60% 28% 28% >Gastly

    confuse ray could phaze dragonair out, but unlike dragonite it often lives long enough to get another agility off later. it could also do nothing like confuse ray sometimes does.

    rhyhorn can switch in on wrap to PP stall but can't do anything back. every time wrap misses, the rhyhorn user has to make a fairly difficult defensive prediction or take significant damage from blizz or bolt.

    i feel like omastar is the only thing close to a counter, and still doesn't enjoy switching in on bolt as it doesn't ohko with blizzard and dragonair can then win the matchup (especially easily with chip damage from wrap):
    Dragonair's Thunderbolt (24/24) 29%-34% 56%-67% 35% 32% >Omastar

    what do you do as the omastar user when your staryu is at 50%, was getting wrapped and wrap misses?

    umm wut?

    wut?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
  9. Dre.

    Dre. Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    10
    Dragonair can't learn hyper beam because it's not a fully evolved pokemon.


    If aginair is banned, the rocks are inferior. Rocks don't wall physical threats except fearow, and all fear grass types. Marowak has blizzard, which does like 40-50% to every grass type in NU.

    Gastly just has trouble making a spot on the team in my opinion. Staryu, eggy, wak/rock and seadra/omastar are probably all essential. Assuming aginair is illegal, you probably want a physical sweeper, a psychic type, and then either a fire to scare eggy or an electric to scare waters. I'm not saying it's terrible, but it certainly isn't core NU or anything like that.
     
  10. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2011
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1,006
    PO Trainer Name:
    Isa
  11. Dre.

    Dre. Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    10
    I thought only fully evolved pokemon could learn it.

    Maybe that's just through TMs.