Just trying to gather interest for the newly made GSC tier: Little Cup. Check PO. It has already been implemented! Give it a shot, i'll be fun :) This is also the place to discuss stuff that needs to be banned, but I'd rather you play gsc lc first before saying Scyther / Chansey or whatever need to be banned. P.S.: Dragon Rage and SonicBoom are already banned. Also the place to discuss whether Item Clause should be active or not. I'd like it to be, under the impression that it will add variety to the game, but maybe I only support that because all the time I had assumed GSC LC was gonna be played with item clause. Whatever.
Well, Gold Berry could be banned. It basically fully restores everything except Chansey. On that subject I think Chansey does indeed need a ban. More so since GSC has few reliable Fighting-type resources to make use of and it's bulk coupled with its relative power. I think I need a bit more play before I'm fully decided. But they're my first impressions.
Your team needs to be made around these two (and to an extent, Porygon), for sure. Having said that, for me it's okay. It's the same OU Snorlax issue, when Curselax started sweeping teams ten years ago people realized they had to adapt their teams to deal with it. And thank god, Snorlax wasn't banned lol. I don't think Scyther and Chansey centralize more the meta than Snorlax in OU. I mean, today it seems that if something is slightly above the rest of the pool in any given metagame it gets immediately banned, but I don't like this very much. As for Troll Gold Berry, meh, it's ok for me. You'll need to ban Berry Juice behind the same criteria, since it will almost always fully restore the pokemon a well. Having said that, Item Clause wouldn't probably be a bad idea.
Well Chansey is very good, as when it gets in a couple of Curses, not even Machop can win without a crit: Spoiler GSC LC sent out Uber1! (Chansey) [Eon]Dratini sent out Machop! GSC LC: so attack me once Start of turn 1 Uber1 used Curse! Uber1's Attack rose! Uber1's Defense rose! Uber1's Speed fell! The foe's Machop used Cross Chop! It's super effective! Uber1 lost 27 HP! (61% of its health) Uber1 ate its Gold Berry! Uber1 restored some HP! GSC LC: now switch Start of turn 2 [Eon]Dratini called Machop back! [Eon]Dratini sent out Elekid! Uber1 used Curse! Uber1's Attack rose! Uber1's Defense rose! Uber1's Speed fell! GSC LC: now back to machop Start of turn 3 [Eon]Dratini called Elekid back! [Eon]Dratini sent out Machop! Uber1 used Softboiled! But it failed! GSC LC: k [Eon]Dratini: ? GSC LC: Time to see how +2 chansey can take on Machop Start of turn 4 The foe's Machop used Cross Chop! It's super effective! Uber1 lost 21 HP! (47% of its health) GSC LC: hit me as hard as you can Uber1 used Curse! Uber1's Attack rose! Uber1's Defense rose! Uber1's Speed fell! Start of turn 5 The foe's Machop used Curse! The foe's Machop's Attack rose! The foe's Machop's Defense rose! The foe's Machop's Speed fell! Uber1 used Softboiled! Uber1 regained health! [Eon]Dratini: ok then GSC LC: :O Start of turn 6 The foe's Machop used Curse! The foe's Machop's Attack rose! The foe's Machop's Defense rose! The foe's Machop's Speed fell! Uber1 used Return! The foe's Machop lost 42% of its health! The foe's Machop restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 7 The foe's Machop used Rest! The foe's Machop went to sleep and became healthy! Uber1 used Return! The foe's Machop lost 42% of its health! The foe's Machop restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 8 The foe's Machop is fast asleep. The foe's Machop used Sleep Talk! The foe's Machop used Curse! The foe's Machop's Attack rose! The foe's Machop's Defense rose! The foe's Machop's Speed fell! Uber1 used Return! The foe's Machop lost 38% of its health! The foe's Machop restored a little HP using its Leftovers! Start of turn 9 The foe's Machop is fast asleep. The foe's Machop used Sleep Talk! The foe's Machop used Cross Chop! It's super effective! Uber1 lost 39 HP! (88% of its health) Uber1 used Return! The foe's Machop lost 26% of its health! The foe's Machop fainted![/HIDE] And that's without its Berry. OP much? ~Next is the Gold Berry. Well it's like Berry Juice in Wifi LC, just better. I think that needs to go as it gives everything a second life effectively, unless it's OHKOed. Again, that's a big problematic and means that the tier lacks diversity.
Try Gastly, Omanyte, Kabuto or Toxic if you want to be able to slack for two turns while someone gets two free Curses. Unban Onix from LC! It was banned by accident and it is far from broken. It's a good Scyther check unless it uses HP Fighting, but that's not the most common choice either way, sooo...yeah just unban it.
K, I finally got a good log of Scyther being OP: Spoiler Battle between [CB]Trolololololol and The Dark Master started! Tier: GSC LC Mode: Singles Rule: Rated Rule: Sleep Clause Rule: Freeze Clause Rule: Species Clause Variation: +50, -50 [CB]Trolololololol sent out Abra! The Dark Master sent out EVIL! (Gastly) Start of turn 1 The foe's Abra used Psychic! It's super effective! EVIL lost 21 HP! (100% of its health) EVIL fainted! The Dark Master sent out Uber1! (Chansey) Start of turn 2 The foe's Abra used Thunder Wave! Uber1 is paralyzed! It may be unable to move! Uber1 is paralyzed! It can't move! Start of turn 3 [CB]Trolololololol called Abra back! [CB]Trolololololol sent out Machollo! (Machop) Uber1 used Curse! Uber1's Attack rose! Uber1's Defense rose! Uber1's Speed fell! Start of turn 4 The foe's Machollo used Attract! Uber1 fell in love! Uber1 is paralyzed! It can't move! The Dark Master: damn The Dark Master: LOL The Dark Master: ? [CB]Trolololololol: :D The Dark Master: where The Dark Master: is the restalk curse The Dark Master: That fills up moves nicely The Dark Master: that.. [CB]Trolololololol: I thought, never would think about it :D Start of turn 5 The foe's Machollo used Karate Chop! It's super effective! Uber1 lost 15 HP! (34% of its health) Uber1 is in love with the foe's Machollo! Uber1 is immobilized by love! Start of turn 6 The foe's Machollo used Karate Chop! It's super effective! Uber1 lost 15 HP! (34% of its health) The Dark Master: .. Uber1 ate its Gold Berry! Uber1 restored some HP! Uber1 is paralyzed! It can't move! The Dark Master: .... Start of turn 7 The foe's Machollo used Karate Chop! It's super effective! A critical hit! Uber1 lost 39 HP! (88% of its health) Uber1 is paralyzed! It can't move! The Dark Master: DAFUQ IS THIS The Dark Master: ...... Start of turn 8 The foe's Machollo used Karate Chop! It's super effective! Uber1 lost 5 HP! (11% of its health) Uber1 fainted! [CB]Trolololololol: Paralyze/Love Hax The Dark Master: No one The Dark Master: loves you [CB]Trolololololol: I hated it in Pokemon Stadium2 [CB]Trolololololol: sry [CB]Trolololololol: oh my gf does The Dark Master: bs The Dark Master: scyther is male Windblown is watching the battle. The Dark Master: oh wait The Dark Master: that means I can come in The Dark Master sent out Uber2! (Scyther) The Dark Master: NO ATTRACT BWAHAHA Start of turn 9 Uber2 used Wing Attack! It's super effective! The foe's Machollo lost 80% of its health! The foe's Machollo used Rock Slide! Uber2 avoided the attack! [CB]Trolololololol: aww^^ Start of turn 10 Uber2 used Wing Attack! It's super effective! The foe's Machollo lost 19% of its health! The foe's Machollo fainted! The Dark Master: after what happened to chansey The Dark Master: that's nothing Windblown: was that machop boosted? [CB]Trolololololol sent out Smogon! (Koffing) The Dark Master: n Start of turn 11 Uber2 used Swords Dance! Uber2's Attack sharply rose! The foe's Smogon used Destiny Bond! The foe's Smogon is trying to take the foe down with it! Start of turn 12 Uber2 used Swords Dance! Uber2's Attack sharply rose! The foe's Smogon used Toxic! Uber2 was badly poisoned! Windblown: damn Start of turn 13 Uber2 used Return! The foe's Smogon lost 100% of its health! The foe's Smogon fainted! The Dark Master: no toxic damage The Dark Master: ^_^ [CB]Trolololololol: why not? The Dark Master: weird past gens [Balkan]Pika95 is watching the battle. [CB]Trolololololol: really? [Balkan]Pika95: hi =) The Dark Master: Giga Drain fails [CB]Trolololololol: i didnt know it The Dark Master: is used on a sub The Dark Master: hi [CB]Trolololololol: hi^^ The Dark Master: if* [CB]Trolololololol sent out Abra! Start of turn 14 Uber2 used Hidden Power! It's super effective! The foe's Abra lost 100% of its health! The foe's Abra fainted! [CB]Trolololololol: gg i think^^ The Dark Master: yep [CB]Trolololololol sent out Sichlor! (Scyther) Start of turn 15 The foe's Sichlor used Wing Attack! It's super effective! Uber2 lost 19 HP! (73% of its health) Uber2 ate its Gold Berry! Uber2 restored some HP! Uber2 used Wing Attack! It's super effective! The foe's Sichlor lost 100% of its health! The foe's Sichlor fainted! [CB]Trolololololol sent out Felino! (Wooper) Start of turn 16 Uber2 used Return! Windblown: the hell happened to toxic The foe's Felino lost 100% of its health! The foe's Felino fainted! [CB]Trolololololol sent out Chaneira! (Chansey) The Dark Master: needs moer unaware [CB]Trolololololol: gg The Dark Master: If yuo get a KO The Dark Master: no toxic damage Start of turn 17 Uber2 used Return! Windblown: broken The foe's Chaneira lost 100% of its health! The foe's Chaneira fainted! The Dark Master won the battle![/HIDE] Scizor's a fast sweeper (reaches 19), and has 20 (boosted to 40) Attack. Faster than Gastly and more powerful than most... yea it's amazing. Oh, and I forgot its defenses: 26/17/17 is better than just about everything except Chansey. UNBAN ONIX.
What's up with you and claiming things that get to boost uninterrupted for two turns are broken? Also, did you note that Machop missed his Rock Slide? Scyther needs to have a Pokémon designed to counter him on each team. He's centralizing for sure, and he might even be broken. That log is not showing why he's ban-worthy though. Try Rhyhorn with Curse/Substitute or Curse/Roar, or a simple Magnemite.
Well yea, that's true, but if it comes in on something it forces out, it's usually gg. He can easily rip through teams because he's the fastest thing in the tier, and has 20 Attack, and Swords Dance. His only problem is coverage, as it can't take on Steels/Rock types with HP Bug. Log or no log, it can find the right time often.
Bug/Flying is quite bad coverage and he has a very poor typing, abuse that. Make it impossible for him to come in on an attack of yours - there's plenty of threats. Smoochum, Houndour, Magby, Elekid are all great Pokémon that can use their STAB attacks to kill Scyther - that's without mentioning Magnemite or Onix/Rhyhorn.
Onix in a tier named "Little" Cup just seems weird. Not saying it shouldn't be unbanned, just saying... Onix isn't that little.
The way to counter Scyther is... having a team with all six pokemon that can prevent it from effectively set up a SD and rip through your team. And this is not difficult: Chansey, Porygon, Scyther, Elekid, Machop, Smoochum, Magby, Houndour, Gastly, Cubone, Chinchou, Larvitar, Rhyhorn, Abra, Staryu, magnemite, dratini, diglett, and idk what more: All these pokemon can either para it or ohko it (assuming you give them the appropiate move), thus preventing it from getting away with a SD sweep. It's not that you will (or should) use pokemon other than these (except maybe poliwag, but has lk). Basically everything can survive a hit from a +0 scyther except for a few cases assuming Scyther has the attack it needs. Heck, even some very common things can survive a hit from a +2 Scyther: Chansey, Pgon, Cubone, Larvitar, Rhyhorn (bar Steel Wing, but then Machop/Gastly survive if you lack WA, if you lack return/hp fight then pgon/chansey survive a hit from +4, if you lack return then elekid also survives or fire-types if HP is not rock). And if Scyther sweeps you, that's that. Maybe you could've played more carefully. I mean, it's very easy too complain about "this is too good it's broken", but just because something is more dominant than other pokemon it doesn't need to be banned. I mean, there is also the possibility of not banning it and learn how to play around it. This can also make the game interesting. Same for Chansey. Same for Gold Berry. etc. And lol this is just a misplay all the way lol. It hardly proves anything. Then switch machop in before chansey gets a couple of curses lol.
Thief sounds like a good idea with Gold Berry running everywhere, although I can't find a way to effectively use it. (Things like Thief Machop can switch in on Gastly and take Gastly's berry, sure, but Machop OHKO's with EQ anyways). I guess if you have a fast low health sweeper that just KO'd a Poke it can use Thief to keep up its sweep although a lot of fast things can get OHKO'd by common attacks (Scyther by Rock Slide, Elekid by EQ. Haven't tried out Agility Horsea but I'm iffy about purely special sweepers with Chansey everywhere.) Toxic Rhyhorn deals with Chansey lacking Ice Beam or Heal Bell; if they run either of those then Gastly and Magnemite can wall it pretty well. These are just short observations, I'm not an expert and just started playing today after getting a tour to successfully run on the server.
Imo, I don't think getting a check for Scyther in every team means OverCent. It's just metagaming, I mean if you don't have checks or counters for threats then you will get destroyed. Also I don't think you can overcentralize in LC. Just an opinion.
Thoughts on Baton Passing teams? I got royally swept by dual screen Chansey + Agility/BPass Scyther + SDance Cubone. It was quick and dirty, my team wasn't prepared and I didn't stand a chance.
I tried that same bp team a week or so ago, its basically uncounterable and beats everything in the tier with 0 effort. Cudone outspeeds and ko's everything at +2, +2 and it is going to get to that unless you play stupidly. I don't have logs to show how it worked for me bu damn it is so broken.
So this set Scyther (M) @ Gold Berry - Swords Dance - Hidden Power [Bug] - Wing Attack - Thief Is amazing. I 5-0 swept with this thing today.. Does anything besides Rhyhorn and Onix beat it? Basically I just SD on something that comes close to OHKOing, recover to full HP, thief their gold berry away while recovering yet again from the stolen berry, then sweep. Repeat.
I think Magnemite is a solid choice versus Scyther in general, but I'm thinking that Scyther needs the ban due to his immense speed, power, sweep potential PLUS Baton Pass ability. There's some counters, but Scyther's not too predictable as he can utilize both a sweeper set with SDance/WAttack/HP Bug or a Baton Pass set that STILL does a huge chunk of damage to most of anything with Agility/SDance/BPass/HP Bug.
[Almost] every pokemon of a standard team is able to either paralyze or OHKO Scyther (ironically, the most relevant mon that fails to ohko scyther is hp rock-less scyther), and a +0 scyther ohkoes almost nothing. Against Scyther it's really about being careful and not letting it set up. In general, it's about not getting too cocky, and if you have to let your active Pokemon die to prevent a potential SD in the switch-in and the subsequent sweep, do it. What actually makes Scyther so dangerous is it's unpredictability between miracle/gold berry, SD/Agi pass, EndRev, Sub, and to an extent, its coverage moves (some pokemon may survive a hit from a +2 scyther in a pinch depending on the coverage moves it has), because just a minor misplay or unexpected set/move could open up a scyhter sweep.
I know this thread is over a year old but I've been messing around in GSC LC with some friends on and off in the past couple of months and was wondering if anyone else is interested in giving it a shot. I only ever played up to GSC so the newer Pkmn/gens don't interest me and GSC OU stalling is kinda boring to me so it would be cool if GSC LC got more attention. I agree that Scyther's stats and versatility with HP and Baton Pass make him the top choice for every team in the tier and that centralizes things, but the BP combo with Cubone can be 100% countered every time, you just have to include ways of dealing with it in your team (hence centralization). Even with all that, after a month+ of testing, I feel that at least a fifth of the 87...or 84 really (let's not kid ourselves with Magikarp, Caterpie, and Weedle) could be considered 'good' or 'threats' in the meta with a handful of more Pokemon being 'viable' but not 'ideal' so there is still some diversity with Scyther around.
Ok seeing how this has been bumped I wanna offer my opinion on Scyther. I don't know how much hope there is for any kind of tiering to happen in GSC LC but if it does I'd really like to see Scyther banned. There -are- ways to play around it but they involve packing at least 2 checks to it and at least one of them not being weak to ground (basically nonexistent) in case of the BP set to things like Cubone. I actually think that Scyther on its own is harder to deal with than Scyther BPing to something else but it helps that Scyther can use it to catch someone off guard. Scyther is simply better than everything in the tier to the point of being too good and nothing else in GSC LC makes you have to consider Scyther being in play for basically every single one of your team's movesets.
I agree with you that you have to have checks for Scyther or he can carry an entire team but something like a Chansey+Smoochum can 100% counter a Scyther, Baton Pass to Cubone or not (Chansey can Reflect and Ice Beam and Smoochum Ice Beam 1 hits Scyther and Cubone). And even if Scyther has HP ground, Chinchou can take 2 hits from it (3 with a Gold Berry). You can also predict the Baton Pass and Surf with Chinchou for a 1hko on Cubone. And even if Scyther gets a hit on your Pokemon here or there, the opponent having an already less versatile Scyther with possible damage on it and a dead weight Cubone is hurt more. Even with Swords Dance and the top speed in the tier, it is very hard for Scyther to sweep a balanced team with checks for him. I feel like he is less of a problem than Snorlax in GSC OU so I wouldn't ban him for 'OP' reasons. If you want to be able to have more of a variety of Pokemon to choose from in the GSC LC tier then banning him and possibly Chansey would be the way to go but the community accepts Snorlax centralizing things somewhat in OU so I'm not sure why Scyther in GSC LC shouldn't be accepted. Edit: I'm not 100% against banning him but I just don't like making rules that contradict precedence or are just for conveniences. I think the strongest/only argument I would use to ban Scyther is that he doesn't have a 'true' evolution since Scizor is more of a lateral move since it has the same base stats total. But I also believe that if you ban Scyther, Chansey's ban should be highly considered then because of her ability to be a Special wall/sweeper/Curser after taking away the biggest physical threat in a mostly-Special meta (the physical attackers are mostly slow and speed kills in this tier--and there are alot of pokemon, Chansey included, with access to Ice Beam to kill most of them). I think that Chansey in a Scytherless metagame is more powerful/valuable to a team than Scyther in a banless meta. Also, Item Clause should be on (I'm not sure if it is officially or not). @ Gold Berry on all basically makes 1hko's that much more powerful and separates good Pokemon that can take 2+ hits in the meta that much more powerful than the rest and makes things even more centralized. And if something like a Scyther ban without Item Clause were to happen, I think a meta with just Cursers (Chansey, Porygon, Eevee, and to a lesser extent Teddiursa/Meowth), Fighting types/Cross Choppers (Mankey, Machop, Elekid, Magby), and quick exploders (Onix, Gastly) would be the prominent meta with only a dozen or so Pokemon at the core of it. With Scyther and Item Clause the meta is about double the size.