Vanilla

Discussion in 'Theme Development' started by Professor Oak, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    in fact, scrap this post


    "Vanilla" mafia cannot work without body language to see or clues given by a forum host. It simply does not work on PO.

    I was gonna suggest adding an inspector, but then realised that PMs make that far too OP for the village.



    Simply put - this theme needs to be removed, as the mafia has an unbelievably strong advantage without the village having any help, and the only way to fix this theme would be to make it... well, not Vanilla.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  2. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

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  3. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    uh, whut? it's just like SI and caterpie
     
  4. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    This discussion already happened here: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?17003-Vanilla
    In this thread, it was argued that the theme could bring long-term benefit to Mafia Channel by making players more smart. And, in a way, I agree with this: I often use this theme as a training to measure my "Act as a villager" skills.
    Since it was said it can improve the players' ability, I think we should wait for more time to see if those long term benefits will come or not.

    As Oak said, the big difference between PO Vanilla and IRL Vanilla is that players have, among other stuff, a body language that can be read by other players. A theme like Caterpie forces those "body languages" by giving incomplete but abundant hax, among other signals.
    As for Space Invaders, some people see it as a rand fest, but I see it as the only theme that enforces Resource Management as a skill. Since some people argue that Mafia requires strategy, then it should require such skill, as it's an important skill for Strategy Games.
     
  5. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    why are you guys talking in terms of theory when we actually have a bunch of games played
    I wasn't online for every game ever but I have kept the logs of every game I was online for, so let's see what has happened so far.
    Keep in mind I'm going to post this no matter what the results are, and in fact since I'm pretty sleepy I'm not even going to post any conclusions based off of them:
    Date
    players - winning side

    11/29
    5 - village

    11/30
    7 - mafia
    10 - mafia
    10 - mafia
    17 - mafia

    12/01
    14 - village
    12 - mafia
    10 - mafia

    12/02
    6 - village
    13 - mafia

    12/03
    13 - village

    12/04
    13 - village

    12/06
    10 - village
    15 - mafia

    12/07
    7 - village

    12/09
    6 - mafia

    12/13
    17 - mafia

    12/14
    12 - village
    20 - mafia

    12/16
    7 - village
    12 - mafia
    13 - <something went wrong with my logs here but when they stopped it was 2 mafia vs 4 village>
    12 - village
    13 - mafia

    12/17
    13 - village

    12/18
    14 - village
    14 - mafia <ok I know I said I would refrain from conclusions but I'm just saying, ty to a certain mafia partner, you know who you are, this was an awesome game>
    As for conclusions not based off that stuff I think I've played it some on irc but that would take really forever to look up

    EDIT: I'm not even sure why I'm saying this or if it needs to be said but I didn't include the several attempts to start a game that failed at signup. I didn't even count those but I think it was less than 5.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  6. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    While it doesn't work exactly the way it would irl, I've come to like this theme, simply because it forces people to actually think before doing anything (well, villagers at least). It's not my favourite, but it's not fair to say it's a horrible theme. After all, didn't it get like 11 approvals by the QAs? Methinks you are in the minority here.

    What I would like to see in this theme in perhaps a Lead Villager type role, which would be exactly the same thing as a normal villager, except they get that cool title in front of their name. It would perhaps give lazy people some incentive to try without changing any mechanics.

    60 seconds is a bit long imo as well. I'd say 50 would be cool.
     
  7. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    if it didn't work on PO, village would never win

    waehofen's data suggests otherwise
     
  8. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    your smarter the you taste meow
    vanilla's a good theme imo, it really takes a lot of skill to know what's up
     
  9. Drapht

    Drapht Move on

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    thats exactly what i said in my review of it, unless people are emotionally retarded, you can easily hide emotion through a keyboard

    it doesn't take skill, it seems hard because its entirely luck based
     
  10. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    In this theme, from my experience, if you talk you won't get lynched. That's it. I thought it would be different when we actually played, but....it wasn't, really. Idk, maybe leave it for a while, but I'm more sided with Oak than with the pro-Vanilla sect.
     
  11. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    I'm pro Vanilla. While it does seem a little bit luck based (then again, what themes aren't?), it's more based around strategy. In fact, the strength in numbers archetype versus the discreet, but ever present and imposing mafia make this one of the most balanced themes on the channel. You'll have to deploy cunning measures as the Mafia to not get detected, and thoughtful measures as a Villager.
    I think it should stay.
     
  12. Drapht

    Drapht Move on

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    what strategy? its all hit and miss - "are quiet people suspicious? are talking people covering up? is the rander leading the votes the actual bad guy?" all these roles are too easy to play and they all have the same likelihood of being bad - its all luck
     
  13. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Day Healer
    *Prepare for a long comment XD*

    When vanilla went out it was my comment:
    Just played this theme like 2 times this week, and my thoughts on it are:

    - Village need relly 100%, and i repeat, 100% on luck to get the baddies . Baddies, in the other hand can kill who they like, nearly always the better know players. And the talk in the day phase don't help on nothing the discover the baddies, simply don't help. The only way what have villies to discover the bad guys is: get a lucky lynch to a mafia, see who didn't follow the lynch so he/she is probably a partner, but anyway this method is still very unreliable.

    - There is a lot of votesniping in this theme. On this point people what always rand is favoured, becos if other people start to rand they can be counterranded.

    - The long day phase time. Not a big issue for me anyway, i'm patient so

    So in short, while this theme can teach newcomers how to play mafia, it discourage older players becos it's randomness. [/HIDE]

    Now i must change it becos i have played more vanilla games:

    - Play like a villy: In big games the only way to clean people is: get a lucky lynch to a mafia, see who did follow the lynch quickly so they are cleaned people. But anyway that lucky lynch is so difficult to do. In small games is still more difficult, becos chances to find mafia are smaller.

    - Play like a mafia: If mafia is noob, villies can still have a chance, but if mafia is pro is gg. I won 2 games alone like that (in mafia im Day Healer) playing like the good guy XD.

    Well, in short i really like vanilla, and I don't like this theme removed, but i too feel like it lacks still something. The solution: I'm suggesting adding a stalker, to see who visited who at night: if the stalked player didnt visit anyone he is cleaned villy; instead if stalked player did, he is mafia. But the stalker cant claim it in public, otherwise other mafias kill him next night. So, in this way things are more balanced i think.
     
  14. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Let's face it: PO Mafia is not strategy-based. Hardly a game gets decided by strategic factors. Other skills are more important in PO Mafia, such as memory (keeping track of results, claims, lies, etc), reading players' behaviour, etc.

    And before anyone come saying "Mafia is based around strategy", please keep in mind what Strategy in games means: It's mostly about planning actions thinking on long-term benefits.
    This doesn't happen in PO Mafia, where the only strategy needed is "Kill the BG, Kill the Inspector, Kill everyone else", but even this cannot be called strategy because no matter how you plan your actions, they will be meaningless without knowing those roles.
     
  15. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    @Ice kirby: mmm, i think i disagree, just see this Vanilla log where i used strategy like mafia at that point what people let me rand: (my nick is Day Healer)

    (23:12:46) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:12:46) Times Up! :
    (23:12:46) The Roles have been Decided! :
    (23:12:46) ±Game: You are a Mafia!
    (23:12:46) ±Game: Hi! You're Mafia, so you can /kill (shared with your team) during the Night.
    (23:12:46) ±Game: Your team is Day Healer, ScorchedSwords.
    (23:12:46) Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:12:46) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, My Life, Photon Hobo, ScorchedSwords, Sky Sentinel, Sparkbeat, TheGhost, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:12:46) Current Team: Mafia, Mafia
    (23:12:46) Time: Night 1
    (23:12:46) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:12:46) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:12:51) Sparkbeat: mafia here
    (23:12:52) ±Game: Your partner(s) have decided to kill 'TheGhost'!
    (23:12:53) Jacze: w fudge
    (23:12:53) Brilliant D: silly villy
    (23:12:54) Doomhound: raar fear my roar
    (23:12:54) Sparkbeat: insp pm
    (23:12:55) Photon Hobo: Villager here!
    (23:12:55) magicmonkey: mafia here!
    (23:12:57) ScorchedSwords: mafia with spark
    (23:12:58) Jacze: villy
    (23:12:59) TheGhost: Mafia herw with Sparkbeat
    (23:12:59) Zidane FFIX: giga lazer cannon here
    (23:13:02) Sparkbeat: no ScorchedSwords
    (23:13:02) Sky Sentinel: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?17217-Assassin-s-Creed
    (23:13:02) ScorchedSwords: lol
    (23:13:02) Goten: samu here
    (23:13:04) Goten: :3
    (23:13:04) magicmonkey: BG on me
    (23:13:05) My Life: Villy here
    (23:13:05) Day Healer: >mafias
    (23:13:06) Sky Sentinel: bs fuck being mafia
    (23:13:08) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:13:08) Times Up! :
    (23:13:08) ±Kill: TheGhost (Villager) died!

    (23:13:08) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:13:08) Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:13:08) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, My Life, Photon Hobo, ScorchedSwords, Sky Sentinel, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:13:08) Current Team: Mafia, Mafia
    (23:13:08) Time: Day 1
    (23:13:08) You have 60 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :

    (23:13:08) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:13:08) Doomhound: mafia here mafia there mafia everywhere
    (23:13:08) Sparkbeat: Sparkbeat and magicmonkey are mafias
    (23:13:09) Brilliant D: scorched is mafia my logic is simple, coz he is
    (23:13:10) magicmonkey: hooker on spark
    (23:13:10) Trosh: ass-ass-in creed
    (23:13:14) Sky Sentinel: Brilliant D and I are mafia
    (23:13:18) Photon Hobo: Can I rand this time?
    (23:13:18) Day Healer: im da fucking godfather
    (23:13:19) Sky Sentinel: don't even kid yourself
    (23:13:20) ScorchedSwords: Flawless Brill
    (23:13:20) Day Healer: gg
    (23:13:21) magicmonkey: im a villy
    (23:13:22) Doomhound: trosh why?
    (23:13:22) Brilliant D: sky sentinal shhhhh it was a secret lol
    (23:13:22) Photon Hobo: PLZ
    (23:13:25) Zidane FFIX: sure photon hobo, rand away
    (23:13:25) magicmonkey: vote me and it will cost oyu
    (23:13:26) Sky Sentinel: NOPE
    (23:13:27) Photon Hobo: ok
    (23:13:28) Sparkbeat: vote Jacze just cause?
    (23:13:28) magicmonkey: 1 cannon fodder
    (23:13:29) Doomhound: lets kill monkey
    (23:13:31) Goten: :|
    (23:13:32) Zidane FFIX: I will follow it
    (23:13:32) Jacze: no.
    (23:13:36) Doomhound: hes lucky so he can die
    (23:13:38) magicmonkey: -1 cannon fodder ifyou vote me
    (23:13:42) ScorchedSwords: I say, we see how things go
    (23:13:44) Sparkbeat: wait...
    (23:13:49) Day Healer: i can do an offer what u can not refuse
    (23:13:50) Sparkbeat: it says i have -1 vote
    (23:13:52) Day Healer: lolo
    (23:13:54) Sparkbeat: ?
    (23:13:54) Zidane FFIX: people are so talkative in vanilla lol
    (23:13:55) Sky Sentinel: brb team voting
    (23:13:59) Sparkbeat: lol
    (23:13:59) My Life: Sky Sentinel, your a girl?
    (23:14:02) Brilliant D: so we need a unifed front, who we voting off?
    (23:14:02) Day Healer: becos nothing more to do
    (23:14:07) ScorchedSwords: that's the point
    (23:14:09) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:14:09) Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:14:09) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, My Life, Photon Hobo, ScorchedSwords, Sky Sentinel, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:14:09) Current Team: Mafia, Mafia
    (23:14:09) Time: Day 1
    (23:14:09) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :

    (23:14:09) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:14:11) ±Game:Photon Hobo voted for My Life!
    (23:14:11) ±Game:Sky Sentinel voted for Brilliant D!
    (23:14:12) Doomhound: ize haz no zpezial abilitiez
    (23:14:14) Photon Hobo: GO
    (23:14:15) ±Game:Sparkbeat voted for Jacze!
    (23:14:15) ±Game:Zidane FFIX voted for My Life!
    (23:14:16) ±Game:magicmonkey voted for My Life!
    (23:14:16) ScorchedSwords: uh
    (23:14:16) Sky Sentinel: gwt My Life
    (23:14:18) ±Game:Jacze voted for Goten!
    (23:14:18) ±Game:Brilliant D voted for My Life!
    (23:14:19) Sky Sentinel: get
    (23:14:20) ScorchedSwords: why so eager to vote?
    (23:14:20) ±Game: Doomhound voted for My Life!
    (23:14:21) ±Game: Day Healer voted for My Life!
    (23:14:21) My Life: gwt?
    (23:14:23) Goten: wtf
    (23:14:28) Photon Hobo: GOOO
    (23:14:28) Doomhound: we gotta do something in life?
    (23:14:28) Brilliant D: sky sentinal i'ma slap you in da face
    (23:14:31) My Life: I'm villy
    (23:14:31) ScorchedSwords: lol
    (23:14:31) Goten: y r u even voting me?
    (23:14:35) magicmonkey: get with a typo mr life
    (23:14:35) Doomhound: better vote my life than obama
    (23:14:36) Sky Sentinel: ilu
    (23:14:37) My Life: ,
    (23:14:41) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:14:41) Times Up! :
    (23:14:41) ±Game: My Life (Villager) was removed from the game!
    (23:14:41) Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:14:41) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Photon Hobo, ScorchedSwords, Sky Sentinel, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:14:41) Current Team: Mafia, Mafia
    (23:14:41) Time: Night 2
    (23:14:41) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:14:41) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:14:42) ±Game: Your partner(s) have decided to kill 'Goten'!
    (23:14:46) Photon Hobo: :o
    (23:14:46) Jacze: lol
    (23:14:50) Day Healer: > vote my life, undead people
    (23:14:50) Sky Sentinel: pro rand esp after mafia claimed
    (23:14:53) Photon Hobo: I`m dead
    (23:14:58) ScorchedSwords: so
    (23:14:59) Doomhound: better than voting Obama
    (23:14:59) ±Game: You have chosen to kill Sky Sentinel!
    (23:15:00) Jacze: >voting quiet people
    (23:15:01) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:15:01) Times Up! :
    (23:15:01) ±Kill: Sky Sentinel (Villager) died!
    (23:15:01) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:15:01) Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:15:01) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Photon Hobo, ScorchedSwords, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:15:01) Current Team: Mafia, Mafia
    (23:15:01) Time: Day 2
    (23:15:01) You have 60 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :

    (23:15:01) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:15:02) magicmonkey: our like 1 in 8 chance didn't hit?
    (23:15:02) magicmonkey: damn
    (23:15:05) Photon Hobo: :o
    (23:15:11) Jacze: >getting voted
    (23:15:12) Doomhound: die mage monkey
    (23:15:12) Brilliant D: noooooo not sky:(
    (23:15:24) Day Healer: tell to me
    (23:15:27) Day Healer: im day healer
    (23:15:34) Jacze: follow this
    (23:15:37) Goten: o.o
    (23:15:45) ScorchedSwords: why was there such an eager vote?
    (23:15:57) Brilliant D: coz scorched is still mafia
    (23:16:00) ScorchedSwords: ^
    (23:16:04) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:04) Current Roles: Mafia, Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:16:04) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Photon Hobo, ScorchedSwords, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:16:04) Current Team: Mafia, Mafia
    (23:16:04) Time: Day 2
    (23:16:04) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :

    (23:16:04) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:05) ±Game:Photon Hobo voted for Trosh!
    (23:16:05) Doomhound: lets kill him then
    (23:16:06) ±Game:Jacze voted for Trosh!
    (23:16:08) Photon Hobo: GO
    (23:16:09) ±Game: Doomhound voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (23:16:09) Trosh: Hate.
    (23:16:10) ±Game:Sparkbeat voted for Brilliant D!
    (23:16:12) ScorchedSwords: lolwut
    (23:16:13) ±Game:Trosh voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (23:16:15) ±Game: Day Healer voted for Brilliant D!
    (23:16:18) ±Game:Brilliant D voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (23:16:18) Sparkbeat: Sky Sentinel voted for Brilliant D
    (23:16:18) Photon Hobo: TROSH
    (23:16:19) ±Game:Zidane FFIX voted for Sparkbeat!
    (23:16:20) Jacze: nuuuuuuuuu
    (23:16:23) Brilliant D: i'm villy spark
    (23:16:25) Sparkbeat: and Brilliant D died
    (23:16:25) Day Healer: vote brillian
    (23:16:25) Trosh: Guys need to hate less on my Troshness for no good reason
    (23:16:32) ScorchedSwords: i can feel the love
    (23:16:37) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:37) Times Up! :
    (23:16:37) ±Game: ScorchedSwords (Mafia) was removed from the game!
    (23:16:37) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:16:37) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Photon Hobo, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:16:37) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:16:37) Time: Night 3
    (23:16:37) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:16:37) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:37) Sparkbeat: Zidane FFIX and Brilliant D for mafia
    (23:16:37) Doomhound: me 2
    (23:16:38) Trosh: Photon leading rands without discussion
    (23:16:40) magicmonkey: yes!
    (23:16:40) Trosh: Needs ban
    (23:16:40) Sparkbeat: :O
    (23:16:40) Day Healer: wow
    (23:16:41) Zidane FFIX: pro
    (23:16:42) Sparkbeat: or not
    (23:16:42) Photon Hobo: :O
    (23:16:44) Trosh: Or lynch
    (23:16:44) Jacze: holy pro
    (23:16:45) Trosh: w/e
    (23:16:47) Doomhound: me's a pro
    (23:16:48) Brilliant D: pro was i right or was i right
    (23:16:50) Trosh: Lynch Proto
    (23:16:51) Goten: o.o
    (23:16:54) ±CommandBot: The command kil doesn't exist <-- lol!
    (23:16:56) Doomhound: i was right
    (23:16:57) Zidane FFIX: k/ill brilliant d
    (23:16:59) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:59) Times Up! :
    (23:16:59) No one died! :

    (23:16:59) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:59) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:16:59) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Photon Hobo, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:16:59) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:16:59) Time: Day 3
    (23:16:59) You have 60 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :

    (23:16:59) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:16:59) Zidane FFIX: oops
    (23:17:01) Doomhound: and monkeybutt is the other
    (23:17:08) Sparkbeat: lol...
    (23:17:09) Jacze: ok
    (23:17:10) Day Healer: trosh doomho and brilliant cleaned
    (23:17:10) Brilliant D: so rand me now but i've been saying he's mafia all game -_-
    (23:17:14) Jacze: afk mafia
    (23:17:22) Photon Hobo: I`m clean!
    (23:17:23) Jacze: lol
    (23:17:23) Trosh: Guess I am
    (23:17:26) Day Healer: u not
    (23:17:27) Trosh: Photon no youre not
    (23:17:30) Doomhound: cleaner than a sheep's butt
    (23:17:31) Photon Hobo: YUS
    (23:17:33) Trosh: NO
    (23:17:38) Brilliant D: i say rand photon coz he likes to rand way too much
    (23:17:39) Trosh: Voting off Photon for being a douchenozzle.
    (23:17:41) Jacze: who is afk,,,,,,
    (23:17:45) Zidane FFIX: 9 villies 1 mafia
    (23:17:47) Day Healer: i agree with brilliant
    (23:17:51) Sparkbeat: i say rand Day Healer
    (23:17:52) Photon Hobo: NOOO
    (23:17:54) Photon Hobo: ok
    (23:17:56) Day Healer: lol
    (23:17:57) Trosh: Douchenozzle is an official term for this btw
    (23:17:58) Doomhound: monkey is maffiaaaaaaa
    (23:17:59) Brilliant D: i say sparks opinion is invalid
    (23:18:03) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:18:03) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:18:03) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Photon Hobo, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:18:03) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:18:03) Time: Day 3
    (23:18:03) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :

    (23:18:03) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:18:04) ±Game:Trosh voted for Photon Hobo!
    (23:18:04) ±Game:Sparkbeat voted for Day Healer!
    (23:18:05) ±Game:Photon Hobo voted for Day Healer!
    (23:18:05) Trosh: GG
    (23:18:09) ±Game:Jacze voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:18:09) ±Game: Day Healer voted for Photon Hobo!
    (23:18:10) ±Game:Brilliant D voted for Photon Hobo!
    (23:18:11) ±Game: Doomhound voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:18:11) Sparkbeat: i say poo on you :p
    (23:18:11) ±Game:Zidane FFIX voted for Photon Hobo!
    (23:18:12) Photon Hobo: NOOO
    (23:18:12) Trosh: Follow the Hoborand
    (23:18:21) Doomhound: hobo's are cool
    (23:18:24) Trosh: Screaming no without justification
    (23:18:24) Doomhound: there good people
    (23:18:26) Photon Hobo: :D
    (23:18:28) ±Game:Goten voted for Photon Hobo!
    (23:18:29) Trosh: Randing without conversation
    (23:18:33) Sparkbeat: except when they steal your stuff
    (23:18:37) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:18:37) Times Up! :
    (23:18:37) ±Game: Photon Hobo (Villager) was removed from the game!
    (23:18:37) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:18:37) Current Players: Brilliant D, Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:18:37) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:18:37) Time: Night 4
    (23:18:37) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:18:37) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:18:37) Trosh: Either a bad mafia or even worse villy
    (23:18:43) Jacze: fails.
    (23:18:44) Trosh: And guess which one it is
    (23:18:45) Doomhound: told you hobo's are good
    (23:18:46) Zidane FFIX: there's literally noo way to tell who is mafia
    (23:18:47) Brilliant D: well there goes hobo....he will be missed
    (23:18:48) Trosh: I don't blame you though
    (23:18:50) Jacze: ahem
    (23:18:51) ±Game: You have chosen to kill Brilliant D!
    (23:18:51) Doomhound: magicmonkey is the maff
    (23:18:54) Trosh: Well, atleast I'm clean
    (23:18:54) Goten: im fashionly late when it comes to voting :3
    (23:18:55) Sparkbeat: Day Healer for mafia :/
    (23:18:55) Jacze: afk mafia
    (23:18:56) Trosh: Lets get magic next
    (23:18:57) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:18:57) Times Up! :
    (23:18:57) ±Kill: Brilliant D (Villager) died!

    (23:18:57) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:18:57) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:18:57) Current Players: Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:18:57) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:18:57) Time: Day 4
    (23:18:57) You have 60 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :

    (23:18:57) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:19:00) Jacze: nvm
    (23:19:01) Day Healer: i agree
    (23:19:01) Trosh: follow Doom Da Clean Dawg
    (23:19:02) Zidane FFIX: all we can is squack like chickens
    (23:19:03) Day Healer: -_-
    (23:19:12) Zidane FFIX: do
    (23:19:14) Doomhound: i bark i don't squawk
    (23:19:23) Trosh: Doomhoundrand go!
    (23:19:23) Jacze: well screw you then
    (23:19:30) Trosh: Ignotre the fact that you cant vote yet
    (23:19:33) Trosh: just lynch!
    (23:19:33) Day Healer: trosh can rand
    (23:19:36) Day Healer: becos cleaned
    (23:19:37) Jacze: no.
    (23:19:39) Trosh: Doomhound and me are both cleaned
    (23:19:41) Doomhound: lynch monkeyfaace
    (23:19:41) Trosh: afaik
    (23:19:43) Zidane FFIX: I think its sparkbeat
    (23:19:48) Trosh: We agreed to get Monkey
    (23:19:53) Jacze: we did
    (23:19:55) Trosh: so haters gonna hate but follow Doom
    (23:19:57) Doomhound: spark seems cleanish
    (23:20:02) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:20:02) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:20:02) Current Players: Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX, magicmonkey.
    (23:20:02) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:20:02) Time: Day 4
    (23:20:03) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :

    (23:20:03) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:20:03) ±Game:Trosh voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:03) ±Game:Sparkbeat voted for Day Healer!
    (23:20:07) ±Game:Jacze voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:08) ±Game: Day Healer voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:08) ±Game: Doomhound voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:09) ±Game:Zidane FFIX voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:11) Trosh: Spark countering rands for no good reason
    (23:20:13) Trosh: Him for next rand
    (23:20:16) Jacze: if we wrong
    (23:20:18) Trosh: *next being lynched
    (23:20:20) Day Healer: man spark stop voting me
    (23:20:21) Jacze: we dead
    (23:20:21) Sparkbeat: not countering
    (23:20:27) Sparkbeat: using logic to find the mafia
    (23:20:30) Trosh: Its countering the RAND
    (23:20:32) ±Game:Goten voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:32) Trosh: and its not logic
    (23:20:35) Trosh: no conversation
    (23:20:36) Day Healer: i did the list of clean people...
    (23:20:39) Goten: o.o told ya i was late
    (23:20:40) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:20:40) Times Up! :
    (23:20:40) ±Game: magicmonkey (Villager) was removed from the game!
    (23:20:40) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:20:40) Current Players: Day Healer, Doomhound, Goten, Jacze, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX.
    (23:20:40) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:20:40) Time: Night 5
    (23:20:40) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:20:40) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:20:41) Trosh: ignoring the rand we already agreed upon
    (23:20:43) Jacze: okay
    (23:20:45) Doomhound: yay
    (23:20:45) Trosh: Vote Sparkbeat next
    (23:20:45) Sparkbeat: Trosh we just happened to vote at the same time
    (23:20:45) Trosh: y/y
    (23:20:47) Jacze: new person
    (23:20:51) Zidane FFIX: 7 villies 1 mafia
    (23:20:56) Trosh: You just happened to not give a damn about the rest of the village
    (23:20:56) Sparkbeat: (15:19:15) ±Game:Trosh voted for magicmonkey!
    (23:20:56) Sparkbeat: (15:19:15) ±Game:Sparkbeat voted for Day Healer!
    (23:20:56) Zidane FFIX: can we do it
    (23:20:58) Doomhound: actually i think trosh could be maffia
    (23:20:58) Trosh: therefore bad
    (23:20:59) ±Game: You have chosen to kill Doomhound!
    (23:21:01) Sparkbeat: k
    (23:21:01) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:21:02) Times Up! :
    (23:21:02) ±Kill: Doomhound (Villager) died!

    (23:21:02) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:21:02) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:21:02) Current Players: Day Healer, Goten, Jacze, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX.
    (23:21:02) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:21:02) Time: Day 5
    (23:21:02) You have 60 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :

    (23:21:02) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:21:04) Trosh: Doom, I was cleaned
    (23:21:06) Jacze: welll
    (23:21:06) Sparkbeat: villy out then
    (23:21:07) Trosh: WHATS WRONG WITH YOU
    (23:21:07) Jacze: lol
    (23:21:08) Sparkbeat: btw
    (23:21:12) Trosh: Anyway, we get Sparkbeat.
    (23:21:16) Zidane FFIX: ok
    (23:21:17) Trosh: No discussion possible.
    (23:21:20) Day Healer: finally
    (23:21:21) Sparkbeat: if Day Healer wasn't mafia then i would be dead
    (23:21:21) Jacze: nahhhhhhhh
    (23:21:30) Day Healer: all the votes he voted me
    (23:21:33) Day Healer: uh
    (23:21:38) Sparkbeat: because someone would try to throw Day Healer under the bus by killing me
    (23:21:44) Trosh: Imma sparkBEAT you guys to lynching him
    (23:21:44) Sparkbeat: js
    (23:21:47) Trosh: -badumtss-
    (23:21:48) Day Healer: lol
    (23:21:55) Trosh: Shocking, amirite?
    (23:21:57) Trosh: ;p
    (23:22:05) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:22:05) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:22:05) Current Players: Day Healer, Goten, Jacze, Sparkbeat, Trosh, Zidane FFIX.
    (23:22:05) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:22:05) Time: Day 5
    (23:22:05) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :

    (23:22:05) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:22:05) ±Game:Jacze voted for Goten!
    (23:22:05) Sparkbeat: :p
    (23:22:06) ±Game:Zidane FFIX voted for Sparkbeat!
    (23:22:06) ±Game:Trosh voted for Sparkbeat!
    (23:22:08) ±Game:Sparkbeat voted for Day Healer!
    (23:22:11) ±Game: Day Healer voted for Sparkbeat!
    (23:22:12) Zidane FFIX: i ebat you
    (23:22:14) Zidane FFIX: beat*
    (23:22:17) Sparkbeat: k villy out
    (23:22:20) Jacze: ebat?
    (23:22:25) Zidane FFIX: lol
    (23:22:29) Jacze: is that ebay's new name?
    (23:22:32) Day Healer: well doh
    (23:22:32) Goten: er o.o
    (23:22:34) Zidane FFIX: kinda like woobat
    (23:22:38) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:22:39) Times Up! :
    (23:22:39) ±Game: Sparkbeat (Villager) was removed from the game!
    (23:22:39) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:22:39) Current Players: Day Healer, Goten, Jacze, Trosh, Zidane FFIX.
    (23:22:39) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:22:39) Time: Night 6
    (23:22:39) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:22:39) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:22:39) Day Healer: why u voted me?
    (23:22:39) Zidane FFIX: but ebat
    (23:22:44) Jacze: i stick
    (23:22:45) Trosh: Well, now I'm dying
    (23:22:47) Trosh: Jacze is too quiet
    (23:22:48) Jacze: with my vote
    (23:22:50) ±Game: You have chosen to kill Jacze!
    (23:22:51) Jacze: lolwat
    (23:22:56) Trosh: Day Healer has to lead rands though
    (23:23:00) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:23:00) Times Up! :
    (23:23:00) ±Kill: Jacze (Villager) died!

    (23:23:00) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:23:00) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:23:00) Current Players: Day Healer, Goten, Trosh, Zidane FFIX.
    (23:23:00) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:23:00) Time: Day 6
    (23:23:00) You have 60 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :

    (23:23:00) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:23:01) Zidane FFIX: k/ill troshh
    (23:23:02) Day Healer: i cant
    (23:23:03) Trosh: ...lolnope
    (23:23:04) Zidane FFIX: oops
    (23:23:06) Day Healer: bad at rands
    (23:23:13) Zidane FFIX: there im clean
    (23:23:15) Goten: if u dont vote now :|
    (23:23:22) Goten: its gg
    (23:23:24) Trosh: Well, its not important if we vote at four or not
    (23:23:28) Zidane FFIX: who do we rand
    (23:23:29) Trosh: since its 50/50 between Goten and Zidane
    (23:23:30) Zidane FFIX: ?*
    (23:23:32) Goten: >.> we got to vote
    (23:23:35) Trosh: Day Healer, who do you suspect?
    (23:23:37) Trosh: Rest quiet
    (23:23:40) Zidane FFIX: go with goten i jsut proved im not mafia
    (23:23:48) Trosh: You kinda didnt
    (23:23:49) Goten: lol no
    (23:23:52) Day Healer: mm zidane?
    (23:23:52) Zidane FFIX: yep
    (23:23:55) Trosh: Okay
    (23:23:58) Zidane FFIX: not me
    (23:24:01) Trosh: I'd have picked Goten but you get to lead
    (23:24:02) Day Healer: or goten
    (23:24:04) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:04) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:24:04) Current Players: Day Healer, Goten, Trosh, Zidane FFIX.
    (23:24:04) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:24:04) Time: Day 6
    (23:24:04) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :

    (23:24:04) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:05) Trosh: Vote Zidane or bust
    (23:24:08) ±Game:Trosh voted for Zidane FFIX!
    (23:24:08) ±Game:Zidane FFIX voted for Goten!
    (23:24:11) Goten: 4 flashes
    (23:24:17) ±Game:Goten voted for Zidane FFIX!
    (23:24:17) Zidane FFIX: im really the villy
    (23:24:20) ±Game: Day Healer voted for Zidane FFIX!
    (23:24:21) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:21) Times Up! :
    (23:24:22) ±Game: Zidane FFIX (Villager) was removed from the game!
    (23:24:22) Current Roles: Mafia, Villager, Villager.
    (23:24:22) Current Players: Day Healer, Goten, Trosh.
    (23:24:22) Current Team: Mafia
    (23:24:22) Time: Night 7
    (23:24:22) Make your moves, you only have 20 seconds! :

    (23:24:22) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:28) Trosh: Because /kill isnt suspicious at ALL
    (23:24:29) ±Game: You have chosen to kill Goten!
    (23:24:32) Day Healer: well fu
    (23:24:33) Trosh: Seriously, you lost us the game
    (23:24:36) Day Healer: is gg
    (23:24:41) Day Healer: sorry for lie man
    (23:24:43) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:43) Times Up! :
    (23:24:43) ±Kill: Goten (Villager) died!
    (23:24:43) ±Game: The Mafia (Day Healer) wins!
    (23:24:43) ±Game: The Village (Trosh) lose!

    (23:24:43) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:47) Sky Sentinel: TROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLED
    (23:24:48) Jacze: welll
    (23:24:52) Brilliant D: lol too pro day too pro
    (23:24:53) Day Healer: :3
    (23:24:54) ScorchedSwords: lol
    (23:24:54) Jacze: DAMN
    (23:24:54) Brian Scalabrine: im back
    (23:24:57) Photon Hobo: ok
    (23:24:59) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:59) ±Game: Brilliant D started a game with theme History!
    (23:24:59) ±Game: Type /Join to enter the game!

    (23:24:59) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:24:59) ±Game: http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/Theme:History
    (23:25:00) Sparkbeat: welll
    (23:25:00) Day Healer: yep lol
    (23:25:00) Goten: letting day healer lead<
    (23:25:01) Jacze: we apologise
    (23:25:05) ±Game: Photon Hobo joined the game!
    (23:25:05) ±Game: Brilliant D joined the game!
    (23:25:05) ±Game: Brian Scalabrine joined the game!
    (23:25:05) My Life: -facepalm-
    (23:25:05) Jacze: to Sparkbeat
    (23:25:08) ±Game: hiimnew joined the game!
    (23:25:08) ±Game: Goten joined the game!
    (23:25:10) ±Game: Jacze joined the game!
    (23:25:10) ±Game: Sky Sentinel joined the game!
    (23:25:12) ±Game: My Life joined the game!
    (23:25:16) ±Game: tyriene joined the game!
    (23:25:16) Goten: inb4 day healer dies n1
    (23:25:17) Sparkbeat: but
    (23:25:18) ±Game: Zidane FFIX joined the game!
    (23:25:19) ±Game: 413 joined the game!
    (23:25:20) Sparkbeat: itoldyaso
    (23:25:21) *** Photon Hobo uses Photon Boost
    (23:25:27) ±Game: Sparkbeat joined the game!
    (23:25:29) ±Game: ScorchedSwords joined the game!
    (23:25:29) tyriene: who was the mafia?
    (23:25:31) ±Game: Day Healer joined the game!
    (23:25:31) ±Game: TheGhost joined the game!
    (23:25:32) Jacze: lol
    (23:25:32) Sparkbeat: Day Healer
    (23:25:34) ±Game: Doomhound joined the game!
    (23:25:34) *** Photon Hobo then eats a hamburger
    (23:25:34) Zidane FFIX: day hraleert
    (23:25:36) Day Healer: i join or no
    (23:25:37) Zidane FFIX: healer[/HIDE]

    By the way, it show again how broken can a mafia role be, so i repeat my suggestion of a stalker in the villy side.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2012
  16. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
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    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Care to explain what was your strategy there? Just saying, skill and strategy are not the same thing.

    And Stalker would be the same as an Inspector, with the sole difference that you could try some pointless frames (not killing, Stalker goes to you but can't clean you because there was no deaths).
     
  17. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

    Joined:
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    I vote that you add a "Giga Laser Cannon" that does 1 daykill per day. Sided with anyone.

    "GIGA LASER CANNON USED MEGA FIRE BLAST!!!!"
    (Bob) Died!
     
  18. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
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    does Vanilla live up to the strategy of some of the other mafia themes? yes
    does castle have any coherent strategy at all? yes

    is vanilla fun? yes
    is vanilla different to [sic] the other themes? most certainly

    Because it meets all 4 criteria, I don't see why you should have a problem. Go check that Vanilla thread, I was wholeheartedly against the very idea of letting that theme come anywhere close to the server, but since I started to play it, I realized it works. The game starts off as pure luck. The first few rands will be just that, rands. If you're quiet, you're not helping the village and therefore are a possible suspect. You take what people do and say and try to formulate a guess to hit the Mafia. It's sort of like Clue: You gather up some evidence, mark off things that clearly aren't true, then make educated guesses. However, you are working against a few clocks. 1) You only have a limited amount of time to discuss and 2) if you seem too valuable, the mafia might kill you.

    Play a game or two. you'll see there's more to it than just randing.


    So what does Castle have to do with this? It doesn't take much skill or strategy to win a game of Castle. Its pure luck. You might think it is fun, I don't. You don't think Vanilla is fun, I do.
     
  19. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

    Joined:
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    PO Trainer Name:
    Day Healer
    I was the player which did the "clean persons" list, so in the same time cleaning myself. The next days i killed the same persons which i have cleaned, letting alive the silent ones, so suspecting.

    The choice of not kill of a mafia in a game like Vanilla is a bit risky, but anyway maybe u are right. Idk how it can work irl.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2012
  20. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    That's more of a way of using the "Looking good" skill than actual strategy by itself.

    I'm not saying this theme doesn't require skill, just that "strategic skill" is not the real skill used in most PO Mafia themes. Strategy implies having information and using that to plan your actions, but in Mafia you hardly have any information at all for long-term plans, and most of the time you gather enough information you either use that immediately or can't do anything anymore.
     
  21. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

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    Okay. I have a different complaint that I don't think many people have noticed. On average, it takes a 20 player game of Vanilla 15-20 minutes to complete. A 13 player game takes 12-14 minutes to complete. It comes out to roughly a minute per player. Most other themes finish around the 14-16 minute mark, and they allow for more than 20 players. It's too long winded to be played this often.
     
  22. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
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    It clearly has been noticed, seeing that was one of the major issues discussed in the thread. What I think we compromised on was putting the max players at 20, which frankly I find quite reasonable. Otherwise I don't really get why people complain that it takes a while (on average a minute per player, which is what i believed it to be, that shouldn't be a shock or anything). I mean, it would be one thing if it was a theme like Garden, which was disabled for taking too long. The issue with that theme was that players spent most of that time doing nothing, just constantly waiting for something to happen. On the other hand, with Vanilla players are, or at least should, be constantly be discussing what is going on to find the mafia. At every moment in the game, people should be actively thinking, talking and thinking about who is mafia. Call it whatever you want, people are actively participating in playing mafia (which i must say is better than most themes that follow the strategy of following a central leader). Either way, timing shouldn't be an issue as players are actually playing the game more than if they were a villager in a 40 player default game.

    I think most, if not all of these issues were addressed in the review thread before it got accepted.
     
  23. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    OK time to make conclusions and arguments since I also happen to be the one under whose name it got uploaded.
    Try being mafia. See how easy "hiding" the fact that you have full knowledge of the roles really is. Being mafia is like being prosecution to the village's defendant—if they're right more than maybe 1/4 of the time they win, and if you don't make a really good case you lose. If the players are competent enough it gets pretty difficult to keep up a facade, but even for competent players, being village isn't a piece of cake either.

    So then there's the charge that I've simply used probability to make sure the town wins about half of the time or whatever.
    There have been probability calculators for village's chance to win in vanilla games, and I made one a while ago in Python that I later found out matched up with something on mafiascum. So let's test the current setups.
    My roles list is

    Code (javascript):
    1. ["v", "v", "v", "m", "v", "v", "v", "v", "m", "v", "v", "v", "v", "v", "m", "v", "v", "v", "v", "v"]
    Meaning 5–8 has 1 mafia, 9–14 has 2, 15–20 has 3. However, the mafia kill comes first, so you actually take 1 off of each of those numbers—the smallest game is 1 mafia / 4 total assuming they don't skip kill #1, which they almost definitely won't

    Code (text):
    1.  
    2. Total   Mafia   Probability     Lynch?
    3. 4       1       0.333333        0
    4. 5       1       0.466667        1
    5. 6       1       0.466667        0
    6. 7       1       0.542857        1
    7. 8       2       0.228571        0
    8. 9       2       0.298413        1
    9. 10      2       0.298413        0
    10. 11      2       0.352092        1
    11. 12      2       0.352092        0
    12. 13      2       0.394938        1
    13. 14      3       0.207792        0
    14. 15      3       0.245221        1
    15. 16      3       0.245221        0
    16. 17      3       0.277855        1
    17. 18      3       0.277855        0
    18. 19      3       0.306575        1
    19.  
    (yeah I put a "lynch y/n" thing in, turns out you're always supposed to no-lynch if you have an even number of players, but I didn't know that at the time)
    So if the experimental probabilities are significantly better, it's because the towns tend to play effectively and not randomly. My earlier post was a pretty small sample size to do statistics on but you could see in the smaller games the village was doin' pretty hot in comparison with that stuff.

    None of that really matters, though. That's why I put it all in hide tags. Good playing on both sides should average out to equal win chances on any theme; that's pretty much the definition of balanced. But if you honestly believe it's no better than, say, Vepix, which is what many of you seem to be suggseting, try being "good at Vepix." You really can't do it.

    All I can really say to this is that good guys have to step up their activity if they want to win either way. The "I'm a villager so I don't have to work" attitude is pervasive in many other themes, but in vanilla you're screwed if you try that.

    From my own experience, I've found that happens most in the early- and mid-game stages, whereas in lategame it is often a scumtell to suggest continuing the strategy. Granted, the villagers don't always catch that tell, but what can you do....

    What are you doing, if not attacking all forms of mafia that actually have player input rather than relying primarily on action results? I could watch any irc or forum game and argue that all of the logic is smoke and mirrors and they're just making guesses and some of them are lucky—I would be laughed out of the channel/forum pretty quickly.

    A good example of strategizing is that in the setups with multiple mafia, you can choose to have one mafia accuse and then vote for another to try to "clean" it later in the game. You kind of have to make the decision to do this at the start of the game before other players have started accusing them, or it loses impact. The voter has to take lead and be "wrong" really often at the same time as he works on killing all the other clean players if he doesn't want to raise too much suspicion by disappearing—it's a difficult but highly rewarding balance to maintain if the other players are playing well.

    So, why do it at all? Otherwise you're all either mostly quiet/insignificant players and could reasonably get lynched lategame, or you're the "village lead" who just always happens to start crappy votes and will probably get lynched lategame.

    I'm only using this example because I (and many of us) know that a certain player likes to use this and I totally caught him doing it in a game last night, even if people didn't listen to me. Keep in mind that in both games, the mafia won. Both games were also quite close. One of them was a 20-player game iirc.

    Anyway the other thing I noticed about your quote is that it seems to be saying vanilla isn't that different from other themes and/or PO #mafia sucks in general. Personally I have been saying for a long time that the majority of themes only have 1 overarching strategy for each side; while vanilla village certainly only has 1 (try to vote out the mafia), vanilla mafia can pick from a couple. Maybe one of those will turn out to be the most viable, but then I don't see why this is any worse than any other theme.

    -------------

    Most of the other complaints afaik are of the form "you should add a role that...." I'm not going to add power roles because it wouldn't be vanilla anymore if I did. This isn't just an experiment in minimalism; part of the reason I wanted this on the server was to get villagers to think independently, and putting in power roles will inevitably screw that up. I'd love to see someone make a variant with a few cleverly placed PRs, and I bet we would watch a more balanced version of default develop, which would make me very happy. Just not vanilla, ok?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  24. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I think my point about strategy was not fully grasped here. I'm not saying Strategy is impossible in PO Mafia, I'm saying Other Skills > Strategy here.
    Even when you and your team decide on a solid strategy, that means nothing if your other skills (acting good, readin players' behaviour, arguments, etc) are not on the same level. On the other side, if you strongly use those skills with no strategy planned you still have a fair chance at winning.

    BTW, I'm not even against this this theme. I just get annoyed when I see all of this "Mafia is strategy-based", "Theme X or Y has no strategy", etc, when actual strategy is, at most, 20% of the game.
     
  25. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    Not entirely sure on this Rice, but I think in this case, people are implying that "strategy" encompasses all those other skills you're talking about (reads, arguments, etc) as oppose to the luck factor that comes into play more heavily in other themes.
     
  26. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    They may be, but that's not actual strategy. That's extremely misleading, which is a problem since that term is often used to approve or reject themes here.
     
  27. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

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    And yet, even with a max player size of 20, the game still runs to a max of 20 minutes, which is absolutely absurd.
     
  28. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    My opinion was already said on the thread. Conclusion: I'm Pro Oak

    Nah... Oak and Serp are pro Li Q., I suppose I've already pointed those things :P[/HIDE]

    Jokes apart, I already exposed my opinion. There were [high number of] approvals versus [low number of] rejections (if someone wants to bother and count the numbers, please do it. thanks) and nothing I said seemed to have any effect. I agree that it is fun to be played (like I said on my firsts words on that thread: 'Even though this is a simple theme and nice to play...'), but just does not fit what I, as a QC member, believe that could be a good addition to the server.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  29. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    bunch of other people love it why don't we just accept that
     
  30. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    Why is it absurd? Clearly there is something absurd about games taking longer than usual yet somehow I am missing the point. Does it really matter that it takes 20 minutes? Apparently so, but I don't see why. Again it's just as similar to playing a villager in a default game that takes 20 minutes except you actually get to play mafia whereas if you are a villager in default, have fun doing nothing for the next 20 minutes.. I need some clarification on what is so different about a 20 player game of vanilla vs a 30 player game of default that both takes 20 minutes. I guess I am just unsure why timing is so important and I'd like to know why. Is it because games that go by faster are better? What are we looking for in a theme? Vanilla requires people to actively participate, even if they don't talk they have to monitor the chat to suceed. Why is that a bad thing? What is a "good addition" to the server?

    Li Q., I think I responded to most of the points you made in that thread, so I wouldn't say your words had no effect. Rather, I think they were extremely helpful in determining whether or not this theme was something that should go on the server. I personally do not see why this theme needs special attention when it's already gone through the QC system and been approved. I know the removal process is a bit vague, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with this theme that needs immediately attention. I guess maybe I'm just misguided or something lol!
     
  31. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    When does Vanilla ever reach 20 players, in all seriousness? With 2 people being removed every minute and a half, that's a maximum of 9 rounds.... Which is about 13 and a half minutes... which is nothing. And they don't get to 20 players anyway. Also like I said, some people do enjoy the theme (probably the majority) and it's a great addition as long as Space Invaders remains "likable".
     
  32. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    That is a QC job. They are selected people because they have some good mafia knowledge among other things. Some other "loved" themes weren't approved, because the QC thinks it does not fit what Mafia needs.

    After all, the theme was approved by QC. Even though my opinion goes against that, the majority approved it, so there is nothing I can do but saying my believes. I don't approve this theme on server, but I don't make the rules, I just follow them: if a theme just needs to have the majority approval of QC members to be uploaded, let it be.
    There is a similar situation with the Fruit theme: many approvals, 1 rejection.[/HIDE]
     
  33. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    Fruit is a meh theme that was reinstated probably due to it's status as a classic, as well as zelda and uhhh clanwar, both meh at best and clanwar of all themes requires the least strategy, dear god, you just gotta rand things and hope no one lied to you
     
  34. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I don't think I ever saw a default game going for 20 minutes even when there was 38 players. As far as I can remember, it takes at most 14 minutes.

    I don't usually think the duration is a big deal, but I guess the argument here is that 35 players can play close to 2 default games in the same time only 20 can play 1 Vanilla game. The difference here is too big to be ignored.
    (That is, if that 20 minutes number is accurate; I never actually paid attention to how much time it took for a full Vanilla game).

    Sorry, but this is plain arrogance. It's pretty sad to read someone say QC members were selected because "they have good knowledge about Mafia" as an answer to "What mafia players likes". It almost sounds as if the Players are not part of Mafia, so QC members don't need to know their needs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  35. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    It would only take 20 minutes if there were no rands at all and a few nights were missing a kill
     
  36. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

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    Every vanilla game I see I'm going to log the duration and compare it to themes before it.
    And yes. The duration of games matters. Let's put it this way. The person who dies night 1 has to wait 15-20 minutes before they can play again. The next one, 19 minutes. You're gypping people out of being able to play by having a theme that lasts so long. Regardless, I'm keeping track of the games tonight below.

    Vanilla - 18 players - 15 minutes
    Space Invaders - 16 players - 7 minutes
    History - 23 players - 8 minutes
    FE - 16 players - 7 minutes
    Default - 17 players - 7.5 minutes
    SSBB - 22 players - 12 minutes
    Myth - 17 players - 7 minutes
    See the discrepancy here?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  37. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    I am not really sure why this is such a big deal, if timing was such a large issue then I suppose we should go back and approve themes like vepix because they don't take that long. In any case, no one is actually getting "gypped" from playing mafia. I mean really, it's the same thing for any other theme albeit with different time intervals. You die first in any theme, you lose out on playing mafia. That happens in every theme, no matter how short or how long. For the average player, I would guess that the amount of time they spend in a game probably averages out over a long enough time period, provided they don't have insanely bad luck, otherwise known as namekilling. Yes, if people die Night 1 they have to spend a longer time waiting. I don't think we can just automatically assume that every player that dies night 1 or day 1 plays less mafia then everyone else. Frankly, I haven't seen anyone complain about this yet, but I am not on all the time to hear every complaint so for all I know this is a huge issue that is affecting the channel. But I am unaware of anything of the sort.

    Li Q, are you suggesting that if a theme has any rejects at all it shouldn't be uploaded? I am a bit confused at what you are getting at, but maybe I am just dumb or something.

    Either way, I think completely removing the theme altogether is a bit extreme, why can't we compromise if it is that big of an issue? The theme was approved through QC with these problems in mind, if problems continue to persist, let's just make some adjustments if we really need to.
     
  38. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    I'm with Rice here. It's a fun theme (whodathunk), but it's a bit of a stretch to say it revolves on strategy. Fact is, this is quite possibly the most luck based theme out there: the only way the village can win is by randing out the mafia. Now, there are ways to get about that, and thus we can say that analysis and skill are needed, but to call this the most strategical theme on the server is silly. You don't know exactly what role someone is until they die, after all, so the best you can do is make educated guesses. Which are still guesses.

    Adding more roles in completely misses the point. Don't even suggest that.

    As for timing, I've already said numerous times that I believe the best way to do this would be to lower the excessive 60 second discussion period to a ample 45-50 second one. Enabling vote sniping would further reduce that by ~8 seconds (if the village decides to sit out a vote, they're doing it wrong), and add that up and you'd lob off a good 20% of game time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012
  39. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    If that was true the odds of the village winning would be very low, not near the numbers wae collected. The data don't lie people. But if you mean to tell me Vepix and Rotom have more strategy then Vanilla, then I am sorry, but you are wrong. I don't really want to waste time typing up a tl;dr because it's been proven that this isn't a luck theme (which was the whole premise on why this was approved...). You just described what mafia is all about; the village lynching, randing whatever you want to call it the mafia. I guess if people have to go to step of arguing semantics to prove that "This isn't strategy" then by all means go ahead. If there is no strategy in this theme, please tell me what themes have strategy. Please tell me what themes involve more thought and actual mafia play than Vanilla. I really am dying to know. Mafia is a game about guesses. If you disagree, then go ahead, but at the end of the day, each decision taken is a guess, no matter how you want to disguise it.

    I've already argued this argument but I will gladly do so again if you wish.
     
  40. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    It's not a big deal because it takes longer, but because it takes way too longer than the average. To say a theme should be approved for being faster is to ignore the point of the discussion.
    It's not a matter of "faster is better", the point here "way longer than the standard". Read the numbers Serp posted and you will notice the difference is in no way irrelevant (considering the number of players in each game).

    IMO, the theme that gets the closest to actual strategy is Space Invaders (because it's basically the only theme that has Resource Management). And even then, as I said before, the strategy there is hardly more than 20% of the game.
    BTW, I don't agree with Tesla in that Vanilla doesn't require skill. It's just that I don't think this theme (or PO Mafia as a whole) is about strategy. Strategy is merely a small part of the game, among other more important skills.
    You may be right in that I'm arguing about semantics, but I guess most people would if they had wrote their graduation thesis based on strategy games as I did.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012