[RBY] Ban Dratini from RBY LC

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Crystal_, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Honestly, it is really overpowered. It's basically a 50% chance to 6-0 opponents from the get-go after you get the agility boost. Wrap 2hkoes everything under PO conditions. Agility+Fire Spin users are probably acceptable under normal conditions, but given the wrap glitch, they ought to be banned as well.
     
  2. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I am inclined to agree with this and will see if I can get it done.
    I guess as LC leader this falls under too
     
  3. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Make a complex ban instead on Agility+Wrap that goes for all the RBY tiers.
     
  4. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    Can't this be PP stalled, like any other wrap-sweep strategy?
     
  5. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    If we just for the sake of the argument assume that everything takes 1 HP damage from Wrap/Fire Spin, but also that you always hit, you have 32 damage to share between your Pokémon, which is roughly 1,5 Pokémon in LC. That also assumes that your foe ONLY uses Fire Spin while you switch for 31 straight turns.
    It also assumes that PO has correct Wrap mechanics which we know it does not.

    Ban Agility+Wrap/Fire Spin/Bind/Clamp.
     
  6. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    One potential way to avoid complex bans in this instance would simply be to ban the move Agility.
     
  7. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    thats better than nothing i guess
     
  8. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    Banning Agility is inferior to banning Wrap. There's multiple legit uses of Agility that's not broken, it'd make very little sense to ban that move.

    Wrap is much more banworthy than Agility as it's the real source of the problem.
     
  9. CALLOUS

    CALLOUS Active Member

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    But doesn't that fail to prevent the issues with the other moves you listed above (Clamp, Bind, Fire Spin)?
     
  10. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I'm sure he meant to ban these four...
     
  11. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    The thing with complex bans is, it's likely they won't be implemented for the fact that it's harder to do so and that RBY LC has no players.
     
  12. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    I'll be happy if Wrap and Fire Spin get banned from LC. No complex ban here!
     
  13. ღSpideyღ

    ღSpideyღ King of Hearts

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    i would argue that dratini is the only broken user of this strategy due to it's superior bulk and ability to boost it's speed with agility and the fact wrap is 85% accurate compared to ponyta's underwhelming bulk and fire spin's 70 accuracy and the rest of the abusers lack agility. So banning dratini could be a simpler ban.

    http://pastebin.com/extW8Cfe actually just read this 5-1 to 1-0 because of one mon ....
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2012
  14. The Dark Master

    The Dark Master Member

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    After some experience in the tier, I agree that AgiliTrapping is too good. It's like Lock on+Sheer Cold in thee respect that it has its faults, but is extremely hard to stop once it has got going. As Spidey says, Ponyta isn't as good with its lower accuracy and bulk. However, once Dratini's got an Agility in, it's very hard to stop. Dratini also has access to Thunder Wave, STAB Hyper Beam and as a result can even finish off Pokés at reasonably high HP. Gastly can stop it, as can some things if it misses, but that's an unreliable way to deal with it. Gastly seems like a bit of a specific counter, as it is often abandoned as a fast Special attacker as Abra exists. Poliwag is faster (18 Speed against 17 Speed) and has Amnesia, making it the better Hypnosis user. Looking at all of these, and the fact that partially trapping moves always hit 5 times (assuming they hit), make Dratini very overpowered once it gets a free Agility in. If it gets an Agility in after being Paralysed, even that can't stop it. So I'm going to have to say that yes, it should be banned.
    By the way Weavilewinz, your badge says "Acting Tier Leader of Wifi LC".

    Anyone reading this should get into RBY LC, there's a channel that I probably can't advertise here about it (just scroll through the channel list and you should find it). It's a great tier (Without AgiliTrap stuff).[/HIDE]
     
  15. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    And that's why Ponyta is also OP right now. Fix Wrap mechanics (from 5 hits to 3 on average), and Ponyta will be acceptable, but right now its basically a 70% chance to kill anything that's not water-type once it sets up agility. Not THAT big of a deal, but still.
     
  16. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    When saying Wrap, the other three moves are also thought of.

    Banning Dratini for being one of many abusers of this strategy across tiers is ridiculous. If so, Dragonite and Moltres should be banned in OU, Dragonair in NU, etc.
     
  17. legolover8

    legolover8 aka [CG]SneaselFTW

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    I agree with the banning of Dratini. Once, when battling with a friend, all I have to do to beat Ponyta is hope for miss or get a Thunder Wave on the switch or the Agility (which I got). Then all you can do is spam a move (in my case Rhyhorn's Earthquake(after switching from Abra) and hope for parahax when free or the miss.
    Ban Dratini Agility+Wrap/Fire Spin/Bind/Clamp, as a complex ban, but not the individual pokemon.
     
  18. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    I can see now how agiwrap would be broken in LC.

    I don't really see why regular wrap is broken though.
     
  19. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    If the banning of Agility+Wrap is out of the question, I think it makes more sense to ban Wrap, a controversial move, than Agility.
     
  20. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    I may be new to this tier but I think it's fairly obvious that Dratini is broken. Once Dratini uses agility it's basically "click wrap to win". I 6-0d someone on the ladder in my first ever game with this and due to it's typing it's not difficult to get up.

    Fire Spin and/or Agility isn't broken due to it being shut down by basically anything resisting fire as Ponyta and Vulpix, the two main culprits, can't really do anything to them apart from spamming firespin which has a 70 accuracy rate (think focus blast) and chances are they will miss before it KOing almost, if not, any fire resist type and will then be proceeded to be set up upon or KOed by Dratini, Rhyhorn, Geodude and any water type.

    Wrap by itself is also not broken as the fastest pokemon (Tentacool) which gets this move has a base 16 stat which is checked and countered by many common threats. (Staryu, Abra, Voltorb, Diglett, Pikachu, Poliwag all outspeed and hit for s.e. damage with standard movepools).
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  21. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Just saying that Fire Spin coming off Ponyta's 16 Spc stat should do 2hp damage to staryu/poliwag/rhyhron according to the damage formula (and to the NBS calc), HOWEVER, it does 1hp damage on PO.

    So if we considered the correct damage values, that'd mean that a +2 Ponyta will have a ~50% chance to KO these three without taking a hit (10 damage from spin (70%) + 10 damage from spin (70%) + 100% accurate move to finish off). Doing only 1 damage per fire spin hit, the KO chance becomes 35% (three rounds of wrap are necessary to put the opponent at slam/fthrower's ko range).

    Fire Spin also does a bit less to other mons (for example it does 3 damage to Voltorb, but it should always do 4). Seems that it could be something wrong with the implemented GSC damage formula in PO that gets relevant when dealing with low levelled Pokemon.

    Anyway, everything said before corresponds to fire spin always lasting 5 turns, which of course shouldn't happen. If it did not happen, Fire Spin wouldn't probably be broken.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2012
  22. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    I'm not sure if I've worked this out wrong (strong chance I have) but the chances for fire spin hitting 5 times in a row is 0.16807 (?).
     
  23. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

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    I think one of the issues is that Wrap/Fire Spin/etc. are currently bugged in PO and throwing probabilities much more highly toward longer durations. I dunno if a formal tiering change is appropriate until what's (apparently) bugged is fixed. Until then, just do what Blitz did with his gym way back when and ban ptrapping moves pending their debugging.
     
  24. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    This isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. At high level play, a wrap will very rarely ever actually go past 3 turns, because the victim will switch out to someone the wrapper doesn't want to stay in against, or the wrapper will switch to something more advantageous.

    In the case of agiwrap, people will just PP stall it, which means it'll only be lasting one turn most of the time anyway.

    I obviously think it needs to be fixed, but it's not as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be.
     
  25. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    You are assuming your opponent has every Pokemon he wants to at any time. PP stall only becomes viable if you have two bulky pokemon at more than 70% or one of them is Golem/Rhydon, which is not very common during the endgame. And in the case you do have them, that's two Pokemon that go down if you take the pp stall route. Plus, if you suceed, okay Wrap disappears, but Dragonite remains. That's still a Pokemon you have to take down. Also, don't forget that a missed Wrap in the switch-in could give Dragonite the upper hand by being able to pick another move in some situations.

    And thats only for Dnite. Plus you dont know how strong a clamp cloyster may get to be. It 2HKOes zam and lax mind you, and chansey and (paralyzed) starmie die to d-e/beam after two rounds. What's more, if you want to use wrap/clamp to pivot, if you know it is gonna last 5 turns, you can wait four before you switch out and get some more damage off (in the case of clamp thats 157 more bp after stab). I used a team with triple wrappers (dnite/cloy/vict) in the past, and won about 90% of my battles. I'm not that good. I can be absolutely okay with correct wrap allowed in ou, but with it bugged, this is another story.
     
  26. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I am aware, but we don't have past gen tier leaders so I assume if anyone's gonna be in the place to ask to ban something in a past gen LC Meta it'll be me or Fitzyhbbe.

    As it stands now it appears most people are leaning toward banning only Dratini as it was the premier user of Agili/Wrap and the real main problem?

    As much as Crystal_'s post makes sense it's kind of off topic here since it's fully in OU context!
     
  27. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    The issue is that Dratini is not the sole abuser of Agility+Wrap across tiers. It's broken/uncompetitive in every RBY tier where using one is feasible (possibly apart from Ubers, but come on), so it makes more sense to ban the combination of moves than banning one abuser in one tier.
     
  28. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Well Dratini is banned in LC now but you'll have to make another thread about banning the whole strategy. This won't get read by the people who decide.
     
  29. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    He was talking about PP stalling Wrap. Thus, I assumed we was refering to OU, because you need like 10-15 pokemon to pp stall wrap in LC!
     
  30. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    I do think the wrap mechanic needs to be fixed in light of what I'm about to say.

    Crystal- If it's something that only works end-game then it isn't really broken.

    We might as well say that set-up sweepers or sleepers are broken end-game as well then.

    Something that's broken just needs to be set up whenever possible and it'll win you the match. That's why OHKOs and Mewtwo would be broken in OU, because you don't need to set up a favourable end game for it.

    If you want to wrap-sweep, then you'll need to conserve PP for end-game which means you can't use it much beforehand. It's like saving sleep for Tauros or something like that.

    Also too, you're forgetting that your own team can have wrappers too.

    The clamp example but using four turns before switching isn't that relevant because the opponent will switch beforehand anyway. It really only makes a difference end- game, but chances are if you wanted to wrap-sweep end-game they would've conserved their PP anyway. I've had clamp PP stalled and have stalled it in return a couple times when we've used it for mid-game control.

    The real problem is that 2k10ers are brought up on anti-wrap, and don't want to have to change their meta to accommodate it. There is nothing about wrap that is more broken than things like sleep or explosion, or a tauros after it's won the ditto, it's just that it requires different strategies and somewhat different pokemon. It make sthe game a lot more tactical and actually removes a lot of the luck involved.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  31. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    We both know how endgames work in rby. Unless someone clearly dominated the game, an endgame in rby consists on tauros and a bunch of weakened pokemon. Comparing something's brokeness to Mewtwo's is unfair, and OHKO moves aren't that broken if you analyze them in-depth. They are just stupid.

    You are underrating how predictable becomes switching and switching against a wrap move. It will lead to bad matchups quickly.

    In short, you are overrating the fact that wrap can be pp stalled. It is almost never the way to go. Thus, 3 hits on average per round is statistically not broken and i'm completely okay with it, but always 5 hits is another story. Especially considering it happens because of a bug. In this sense, I appreciate that you'd like to see it fixed asap and start your post saying that.

    Explain. Not counterarguing, but it's the first time I read something like that.
     
  32. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    The battles I've had against other wrappers who actually knew how to play against it were very tactical and a lot less luck-based because there is a lot less hax. FPs affect the match less because you often keep your wrappers unparad, and if the victim is parad it doesn't really change anything. Crits are also less haxy because a crit wrap isn't a big deal most of the time, especially because they will almost always switch out on the first turn. In fact, most of the hax I experienced came from non-wrap teams getting like one crit or twave that completely undoes my last 30 turns of progress.

    PP stalling is much more realistic than you think. I've had clamp stalled and have stalled clamp myself many times before. Also too, often you don't need to go all the way. because once they realise what you're doing they'll switch out.

    I've played the wrap meta plenty of times against other wrappers who knew what they were doing. It's not like what 2k10ers make it out to be. There is a lot of wrap control and switching mid game, but end game is rarely ever a wrap-sweep, because it's hard to keep your wrappers unparad whilst still using them for control.

    You're overestimating how easy it is to set up and end-game wrap sweep. It's pretty hard to keep your wrappers unparad, and it's often quite hard to get them in on something safely unless you're switching from another wrapper. Things like chansey or zam will throw out a twave when your parad chansey is out, just to catch your wrapper coming in.

    The impression I get from 2k10ers is that they think the wrap meta is just about getting fast wrappers and then wrap sweeping. It's nothing like that at all. You need faster pokemon like starmie and zam to threaten paralysis, you need something like chansey to go to when they go to their starmie or zam, you need tauros to clean up end-game etc. If you want to go for a wrap sweep, it's going to be difficult to get everything paralysed without getting your wrappers parad as well, and you need to do enough damage beforehand so that they can't stall you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  33. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    Sorry for the double post, but if agiwrap should be banned in LC then amnesia+reflectlax should be banned in OU too.

    Agiwrap was banned on the grounds that if it set up and did not miss, it is guaranteed to take out roughly 1.5 pokemon.

    Well if the opponent doesn't have gengar or counter chansey and something has already been slept then ARlax can potentially 6-0 teams. In fact, the only way to take it out without any kind of luck is to double explode on it then revenge KO it.

    Seeing as this has the potential to do far more damage than agiwrap, and agiwrap is banned, I think this should be banned too.
     
  34. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

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    Okay so your point is that wrap potentially removes some of the mechanics that could lead to "hax", like paralysis and crits. While this is partly true, you are still not removing from the game the fact that in rby each turn is a X% chance to happen something. Much like X pokemon is a 18% chance to crit and Y move is a 30% chance to para, Wrap is a 15% chance to miss, clamp a 30% chance etc; and I can tell you these chances can be more determinant than a random fp or crit, because over time, you will often be relying on that "15%" chance to miss that would get higher every turn wrap is used.
    Plus that paragraph didn't make all that much sense. I often keep tauros unpara'd too, does this fact remove some of the hax?

    I perfectly acknowledge the fact that wrap and clamp are pp stalleable, but you are overrating that. Each turn you try to pp stall clamp is a turn that could lead to a bad matchup.Being predictable isn't good. Having said that, this is how Closyter is dealt with most of the times, you siwtch and keep switching most of the times (unless you have no fresh starmie/maybe fresh zam in which case you are basically screwed and depend on "luck" to deal with it no matter what you attempt). The thing is, I have never ever see a Cloyster run out of Clamp. And I've played with it/against it a lot of times. RBY games end before that. If you waste all your clamp pp for no reason thats your fault. Capitalize off switches that clamp leads to. That's how cloy is played unless it has a legitimate chance of sweeping.

    Being paralyzed by Chansey or Zam in the switchin isn't a valid argument. If you think there is a [small] chance they are TWaving, you don't switch them in, much like you don't switch Tauros either.

    Anyway, if you think i'm defending that wrap should be banned, I am not. 3 hits on average is not broken at all. I'm just trying to explain how things work. Wrap doesn't remove luck. Doesn't really add a lot more either, but makes luck more annoying and potentially more gamebreaking.

    Not even going to comment on your last post. That made no sense.
     
  35. Dre.

    Dre. Member

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    I never said wrap should be legal because it removes hax. Wrap should be legal because it is a RBY mechanic that doesn't break the game.

    You're exactly right about cloyster. He is used to control the match and get favourable matchups, not to sweep. That isn't broken at all. Also, his ability to set up favourable match ups is nullified by the fact that the opponent can switch as well. All you have to do to nullify his control is go to faster pokemon that can paralyse him or hit super effectively. Yes they have options from there, but that is in no way broken, and he has to relinguish his control.

    You can say "if they don't X or if they can't do Y they're screwed", but how is that different to any other RBY strategy?

    As for getting twaved, if it is so hard to to switch in because of fear of paralysis, it isn't broken.

    Wrap isn't broken because it isn't an auto-win. You have to be so careful and strategic with it to win. There are thing which are much more broken once certain conditions are fulfilled, like amnesia+reflectlax. That breaks the game much more and brings it down to luck than wrap does.

    I agree the wrap bug needs to be fixed, but it isn't that big of a deal, because most wraps won't get to last that long anyway because of switching. If a slower pokemon is getting wrapped, they are almost always going to switch on the first turn. The only time they won't is if they think the wrapper will anticipate the switch and go to its counter, so they leave the current pokemon in and the wrapper switches in the wrong counter.

    The only time wraps are likely to get completed are end-game, but it doesn't make much of a difference there because if you're wrap sweeping end-game, you've probably conserved enough PP anyway.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2012