Vanilla

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by waehofen, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    My replies to your replies:
    1. Games take too long. Also, if there are 15 deaths... 13 taking 1 minute, and 2 taking 2 minutes... the average is 1 minute and 8 seconds. A 13% increase in time. That is not even including ties in voting, because, you know, that happens sometimes. Ties eat up minutes too.

    2. How will talking be able to find out who is mafia? Have you even played Mafia? Everyone will simply claim villager, no way to prove or disprove. You'll just be targeting the people who didn't talk, most likely new players that have no idea what is going on or people who didn't feel like typing villager just to be told they are lying. No matter what you do, you aren't safe from a rand being a villager role.

    3. People will rand you if you are annoying or talking too much. People will rand you if you claim anything related to bunker. People will rand you if you don't claim anything to bunker. Welcome to Mafia.

    Also, for reference, my definition of randing = you weren't inspected, distracted, or haxed but still got voted out or daykilled. Since there is no inspector, distractor, or spy in Space Invaders, every kill is a rand and every vote is a rand. You cannot say with 100% accuracy as the Laser Canon that X player is an Alien or Y player is a bunker. No matter how much you think there is a strategy behind it, the vast differences in players throw any strategy out the window. If you are a bunker and lie saying you are out of protects, then protect yourself and don't die doesn't mean you tricked anyone into targeting you. IT just means you attempted to trick people but you were selfish and protected yourself instead, possibly leaving laser open.

    I'll argue all day on how Space Invaders, and Vanilla, are just complete rand-fests, if you want.
     
  2. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,445
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    PO Trainer Name:
    MeowMix
    HAVE YOU EVER EVEN PLAYED MAFIA BEFORE MARIO GOTZE

    but honestly, everybody claiming village and not having a concrete method to prove one way or the other is the entire point of the theme. you may see it as a flaw fuzzy, but some of us see using discussion as a tool for scumhunting as an equally enjoyable method of playing with an even more rewarding feeling when you actually do hit scum.

    on "randing:" even without concrete methods of finding scum, one can often be reasonably certain about a person's alignment through analyzing voting patterns and reading their posts. through process of elimination, so called "rands" can be turned into reasonably educated guesses that, even when wrong, still give you information that will assist with the next voting phase.

    on time: wae could reduce the night phase to 15-20 seconds or something. beyond that there's not much that can be done without significantly ruining the whole point of the theme; 30 second standby phases are just too short and would stifle discussion. have to agree with wae and jal about simply not joining if you can't commit.

    on players: to be completely honest, most of the people in this thread opposed to having this theme on the server seem to have an extremely low opinion of the playerbase in the channel, as Tesla, Li, and now Fuzzy all seem to believe that players are incapable forming their own judgements and have to rely on power roles in order to have any modicum of success. it makes me wonder why you guys would choose to decline this; tesla, you're probably correct in that I'm probably overstating the impact that this one theme would have on the skill level of the channel, but I have to ask, what's the harm in trying? even if only one or two players benefit from something like this, it's still a positive gain, and I'm a firm believer in taking the small gains in addition to the big ones.

    rabble rabble rabble
     
  3. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll argue all day on how Space Invaders, and Vanilla, are just complete rand-fests, if you want.
    ---
    The skill involved in Space Invaders comes during the night. The laser has to pick someone out at random as there's no way to judge ones behaviour so scumhunt in such a decently paced theme. What does allow for skill is the plays by the aliens and the bunkers (fakeclaiming your amount of bgs/targets, kill directing, small-scale scumhunting). There are in fact mindgames involved, but it's a randfest because the village mainly rands, that's kind of their thing.

    Vanilla, on the other hand, is not, because if you just rand, you'll have the odds against you, not to mention it's hard to find someone willing to lead because it means you'll die (and if nobody leads, you'll just tie or a villager gets countered). You are basically forced to avoid 'randing', trying to judge everyone's behaviour to scumtell and then lynch. Since the village only has the well-thought-out lynch as a weapon, it is not a randfest.

    I'm kind of indifferent towards this theme, it's a fun diversion but not really my style and imo the mafia is OP in larger games.
     
  4. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    When you get an inspector role, how do you choose the person you will inspect next? That could as well be called a rand, but what most people do is to choose their target based on people's behaviour during the game. What this theme proposes is that you do that same behavious analysis, but on a larger scale since you won't have any definitive confirmation (but you still can discuss with other players about your suspicions).
    This is what Mafia is about: a deduction game (sometimes down to psychological levels). And that's not even the only method to find other player's intentions. For example, you can always pressure them into aswering some questions in order to force a slip from an eventual mafia.

    Regarding Space Invaders theme, the only person that actually rands is the Laser Cannon. Bunkers and Aliens' game is all about making people trust them (and this is not a simple feat). Not unlike this theme.
     
  5. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    0
    Responding to both, simultaneously. Actually, the time spent to eliminate one person from the game is higher than 1person/min (or 1person/1min8s, like said Fuzzy). Remember that votesniping is NOT enabled, so the voting phase can take much more time than the considered "30s" (or bit less too, but it's almost impossible for EVERYONE to vote in less than 30s in a big game). It was the same reason Garden was disbled. It simply took too long. If there is no Garden... why'd I say yes to this?

    I'm sorry, but there is no way to prove you are a bunker - except botquote. Same works here. It's like I said: the best actor will win. Fuzzy already said most I'd like to say.

    You all seem to want more time to discuss. Why can't you discuss at night and voting phases too? It seems to be a bit contradictory to what you've been saying.

    I guess you are misunderstanding what I said. I am capable of making my own judgements - and so I guess for others. I just don't think that there should be a whole theme only about it. I already suggested this mechanics could play a bigger part of this theme, more than the average, but don't rely only on a single aspect. Also, being eliminated n1 in a game that will last 20min is not healthy for the channel.

    Someone said that LoL also takes a big time. Yes, it is a very nice game, I already played it, but it is a scenario where some teams fight till the destruction of some kind of totem of the opposite. If they die, they'll just re-spawn in a few seconds, they won't be eliminated from the game and can't do anything for the next 20~40min (average length of the games I watched/played). LoL and Mafia are very different in this aspect, aren't they?
     
  6. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, we haven't been proven wrong, have we? The reality is that this theme won't work unless people can get their acts together. I don't think this is impossible, and a theme like this will force people to play better. The question is, do people want to actually think when playing a game of mafia, of all things? It's not that people can't form their own rational judgments- they can, they just don't want to, based on what I've seen from the channel.

    I'm not against the concept; I think it would be fair to at least test it. However, I'm concerned with the absurd length of the game. Fact is, 15+ minutes for a single theme is way too long, even with all of the supposed strategy and discussion going on. Allocating that much time to a single game isn't fair to everyone else.
     
  7. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    Direct quotes said during a game of Space Invaders:

    (16:17:27) Hopkirk: everyone claims bunker // claims mean nothing

    (16:20:04) Cdr. Shepard: your word is as good as trash in mafia


    And the best part:

    (16:22:05) Cdr. Shepard: okay, my votes are for ruk, zetta, fa7, and lapis
    [...]
    (16:22:01) ±Space Invaders: Lapis Mew (Alien) was destroyed!
    (16:23:02) ±Game: Zetta Slowbro (Alien) was removed from the game!
    (16:23:47) ±Space Invaders: fa7assinurchips (Alien) was destroyed!
    [...]
    (16:24:31) ±Game:Nyoth voted for Cdr. Shepard!
    (16:24:39) ±Game:Cdr. Shepard voted for Rukzaper!
    (16:24:39) ±Game:Rukzaper voted for Cdr. Shepard!
    (16:24:39) ±Game:Wobuffet voted for Cdr. Shepard!
    (16:24:39) ***¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦ ¦¯-¯¦
    (16:24:39) Times Up! :
    (16:24:39) ±Game: Cdr. Shepard (Bunker) was removed from the game!

    For reference, Nyoth was laser canon, and every time an alien got removed, Cdr. Shepard was celebrating.


    So even though Cdr. Shepard helped remove 3/4 aliens, he still got voted off by the laser. You think Vanilla would work with this crowd?
     
  8. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    itt vanilla hate. going through posts one by one

    I see what you are saying and I do realize that my analogy was imperfect. The main point I was attempting to get across was that people will play games they have the time for. If you don't have the time to play a game, then don't play it. I am sure people wish LoL took less time, but somehow people still play it because they play it when they have time.

    I do not know the details of the disabled theme, but I am sure I would likely disagree with the reasons for disabling it.

    Look, I don't mind if you believe this theme is a rand-fest or whatever, but can we leave the personal insults out of this? If I wanted to I could talk about what a great mafia player I am and get people to back me up, none of which I am interested in doing. (of course if you would like to know why I think I know what I am talking about, let me know) I am fine with arguing over theme, but I don't need you attacking my personal character and acting like I'm a 3-year old child in an effort to make me look bad. Thanks.

    1. Ties should theoretically never happen because the village should not be tying a vote. They will, but they shouldn't be. Also while I enjoyed your statistical analysis, saying that an extra 16 seconds will have a major impact on gameplay does not seem realistic to me. Your numbers are fine, but 16 seconds is pocket change to most people. So if you are saying that an extra 16 seconds is too long, then yeah I'm not to sure what to say.

    2. If you, you know, read my posts (hey see what I did there? ad hominem yay!) you would see that I have stated many times ways to find mafia. You don't say "I'm villager" and call it a day. You discuss with the village who you think is mafia. Calling people out for not saying anything is a very good strategy, the fact that you think it targets new players is ridiculous.

    3. Basically this point is about what players will do blah blah blah and not about the actual theme itself. In other words this has nothing to do with whether or not this theme should be approved or not. I would of course be happy to address this if this is an issue that needs to be addressed.

    Your definition of randing is poor at best, and flat out wrong at worst. If that's what you say is randing, what about who I pick to inspect? That's a rand. Who should I hook? In most cases, it will be a rand. In fact, if you think about it, the entire game of mafia is based on educated guesses. Wow! The whole discussion of what constitutes a rand is a waste of time because the game itself is essentially based on rands, aka educated guesses. RiceKirby's post sums this up well.


    I do not know the details on why garden was disabled but if you let me know what they are, I will gladly continue this argument.

    You just defined the game of mafia. There is "no way to prove" who exactly you are, that's the whole point of the game. Mafia is essentially all about acting. If two people claim inspector, who do you believe? Whoever acts the best of course.

    No clue where you are getting this from.

    Define "healthy for the channel." What does that mean? Why can't we have a theme based on "one aspect"? Why doesn't that work? I am just a bit confused that you are presenting this like it can't ever happen, when that isn't true, or at least to the extent that I am aware of.

    If anything, you have to be comitted to a game of LoL. If you die D1 in mafia you can do other things and its nbd. That's the thing; you need to be comitted to play, but if you die early then you can go off and do other things. So, while yes they may be very different in that regard, the point I'm trying to make is with regards to time.

    Again, this has nothing to do with the theme, and so it should not be considered when basing it for an approval/rejection. However, you do bring up an interesting point. I would be interested in knowing whether or not the village won that game. Voting him off was a very poor move, and I wouldn't be surprised if they lost becuase of that. It's something that people will learn in time the more they play. Being a villager requires smart play. Villages will lose for being dumb, and it is my hope that people will learn from that. Apparently, you disagree. That's fine, but that does not mean we should not try.
     
  9. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    0
    What I know it was disabled because it used to take too long, or, at least, this was the most important factor considered when it was done.

    I'll probably believe on the best actor... till they say someone is bad and see what will happen: if it happened as he said, ok, legit; if not... get him (and we got a lead!).

    From someone's suggestion to shorten the night.

    Dying n1 on these huge games will make people lose their interest on the current game, and, maybe they'll really do another thing - and may not come back. By "healthy" I meant that a couple games after this will probably have less people...

    I guess that a SINGLE-aspected theme will probably be boring - mainly this, that already takes a long time. They kill, we lynch, they kill again, we lynch again, they kill once more, we lynch, we kill (oh wait), we lynch... There is no hope for xfire. There is not a "I'm saying he IS bad. Get him now. If he is not bad, you can get me next, because I'm absolutely sure he is bad." (based on hax, inspection, connection...). Also, there are ways to prove someone is is good/bad. They are called expose, reveal and kill (during standby) and onLynch and onDeath actions when ~Self~ and/or ~Target~ is part of these commands message. I thought on some more ways to improve this theme, based on concrete information and on what I just said. waehofen, PM me if you have any interest on this.
     
  10. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    ---

    As I stated before, I am rather meh about this theme. However, I think it's fine as is formulawise, albeit unbalanced in larger games. Adding things makes it complicated. The entire premise of the theme is not being able to prove someone is bad at all! Scumtelling gives decently concrete information. Stating that people will not like this theme's length (dying #1 is highly improbable, js) is... a decently safe yet unlogical assumption given the lack of empirical evidence.
    If I were a QC member, I would instantly approve this theme only to never care for it again (no offense, it's just something I personally don't care about). This theme is just one of those gimmicky ones that needs testing to see if it will work, even though the concept has been tested off-server a gazillion times. If it does end up being boring, then let it be boring, but that's no reason to keep it in limbo. TESTING. PEOPLE. WORK. BALANCE. NINJA'S (okay, maybe not). EMPIRICAL. PREMISE. SCUMTELL. FORMULAWISE. MEH. /endsummary
     
  11. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    Well, that seems hard to believe that timing was the only reason. Mafia takes time. Any game you play takes time. If the goal of the channel is to provide instant gratification for each and every player, then sure, maybe timing is an issue we need to discuss. But if we want to approve the quality of players by having quality themes, then this theme needs to be approved because it will do just that; improve the quality of players.

    But you see, that isn't actual mafia. Mafia wasn't meant to have a central controlling figure that everyone would claim to. I know that this is a huge problem in forum mafia as it leads to players getting bored. One of the reasons it's probably not seen as a huge problem on the server is because games happen so fast, that people can deal with not doing anything in the hopes that one game they will be that controlling figure. The point is, the village leader system is, while very good, is unhealthy for the game. First of all it's boring as hell if you aren't clean; nothing you say or do really matters. And secondly, it isn't how you play true mafia. Now, there's nothing wrong with how we play it, I just don't see why we can't return to the roots of mafia.

    So would you rather have a group of 20 intelligent people who know how to play mafia and are an integral part of the community or 100 people that don't really pay attention but just sheep and aren't invovled with the community at all? IMO, quality > quantity.

    But the point of this theme is exactly the opposite. It isn't about 100% proof, it's about using your head to play mafia. The scenario where you can prove someone is good or bad is exactly what we are trying to move away from. The situation you describe isn't fun at all because you don't actual do anything except follow a person who is legit 99% of the time. Why can't we have a theme that requires people to be engaged?

    lol I guess my argument has devolved into a village leader thing, but what can you do?
     
  12. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    0
    I also could just reject it, exposing my arguments and end of story (for me), not posting on this thread again. But I preferred to try to help, give tips and etc.

    Just like I said, that was the information I had.

    Remember that Rice said that this is NOT Forum Mafia?

    Can't those 20 "intelligent" people teach those 80 "not so intelligent" how to play mafia? This way we get both quality and quantity. You are seeming to prefer only "intelligent" people, and doesn't care if the channel simply dies at some times.
     
  13. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Zzyzx Road
    The smallest themes seem to give the biggest discussions, after all. Back to reviewing after a month!

    A lot of stuff has been said, and to be honest I read but the earlier posts and I think a lot of that which could make us worry has been sorted out. Based on that, I'm going to give my opinion out of what I think, on the same fashion that I do for more "usual" themes. For that, I'm afraid I may sound redundant.

    You couldn't really miss out on coding by any chance, and we know this theme quite well from other times. All we have to worry now is whether it would be nice to have this theme up on PO.

    Balance - this can't really be unbalanced. The thing is that too big games will get slow with the one person per minute death rate. Discussing a blind-start game is important, though, so this is something we'll have to deal with and there is no possible solution now. However, this problem may not be overlooked because having a max of 20 players is frustrating, especially since 20 players will mean 20 minutes with a lot of game-hungry players watching from the outside. Therefore, I think the best solution is to shorten the full cycle timespan - either by reducing night or standby ticks, this is up to you.

    The other side of the analysis is strategy. This brought up some discussion in the earlier posts, because of one's views of what is strategy. To clarify my point I am going to play the nerd-robot-guy whom you wouldn't hang out with and quote:
    So rather than saying this theme has strategy, I would say this theme's strategy is that of analysing the other players' behaviour to try and use deduction and influence to remove the opposing. I don't think there is any more to discuss about this theme's strategy level, since it is bound to be the only theme which you need to use your mental skills to play. I don't mean to bash the other themes, but as someone mentioned before me, "claim-pray-clean-lynch-win" is all most Mafia themes are about nowadays. The whole point of this second paragraph is to congratulate you and shoot down opposing statements.

    To sum up: make it a little bit quicker, allow more people to play, I'll be 100% for it.
     
  14. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    So instead of responding to the points I make, you decide to invalidate my argument on the grounds that this is not forum mafia, which wasn't what I was talking about. Ok. That pretty much says it all right there. Doing stuff like that shows that you are not actual reading the post or worse, you don't have a response to what I'm saying so you ignore it. Either that or you just don't understand what I'm saying. I sincerely hope it is the former. Please reread my post, ignoring whatever I say about forum mafia since that seems to have confused you.

    Other than the fact this is a total misrepresentation of what I was saying, you also misunderstood (i presume) the point I was reaching. I was saying that if we can get a few players to be "englightened" so to speak, and reach a higher level of play in games, then I think we should do whatever we can to reach that level. If some people are so-closed minded that they refuse to play, that's fine. This is less about intelligence and more about "How do we improve the level of mafia-play?" If that is not our goal, then yeah I guess you should reject this theme. But as far as I am concerned this is our goal, and I do not see why rejecting a theme that could potentially do this is in the best interest of the channel. Your point about having the intelligent teach the not-so-intelligent is nice, but how can that happen without a theme that requires thought? I honestly do not believe that the "chanenel dying at some times" is a problem at all. I highly doubt whether or not this theme is approved will have any significant effect on the population of the mafia playerbase.
     
  15. DatXFire

    DatXFire Never gonna use an avatar

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Messages:
    89
    Likes Received:
    9
    I love jalmont's arguing, we had fun doing the same thing when talking about the Conspirator in default. xD

    While I'm not ready to post my opinion on this theme, I would like to clarify exactly why Garden was disabled. I asked Steel and this is what I came up with:

    (00:30:17) DatXFire: Steel
    (00:30:20) DatXFire: could you explain
    (00:30:26) DatXFire: exactly why Garden was disabled
    (00:30:35) +SteelEdges: Took way too fucking long
    (00:30:51) DatXFire: on average how long were the games?
    (00:30:58) +SteelEdges: over 15 minutes

    I fear the same thing is going to happen to this theme so I thought I should post that for discussion.
     
  16. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2012
    Messages:
    242
    Likes Received:
    2
    This theme is so simple, so simple that it's spiceless.
    While the mafia know each other and has one single dumb strategy which is = kill the most trusted persons. The village has no single idea who is who, no distract, no hax, nothing at all, it's all about luck, you can keep talking about that psychologie argument but it will still be luck since mafia can also act as a normal villager ...
    @Rice, yes, as an Inspector you just randomly /inspect a person. Obviously! But, at least, once you get the result of /inspect, you have a 100% exploitable information that will lead you to a better rand which also will lead to a better rand, ... to the win! While in this theme, voting will lead you to nothing exploitable, only guessing and guessing...
    30 secs for 1 night kill + 60 secs for ... uh ... s.. strategy yeah right lol + 30 secs of a .. what we call that in mafia? a RAND! = Terribly Slow!
    It's kind of a version 2.0 of Space Invaders but way more slow and even worse than IS (IMO).
    Default is already simple enough to introduce the basics for the new players.
    It's not about tbeing a villager ... But, it's that villagers with no PRs in their side can no longer be concidered villagers, they're the PRs, their sole power is the vote, which they will use randomly.
     
  17. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2012
    Messages:
    130
    Likes Received:
    0
    ---
    I like how the part where I express my opinion on the theme is the only thing you quote from me, rather than the part where I criticize you. I'll surely express my actual opinion to the OP while also giving criticism to what I believe are untrue posts, it's just great to know they'll be used like this. Placing them all together in one post to avoid spamming the thread can't possibly go wrong, right? Gah!

    The idea works, it has proven to work in other settings plenty of times. There is no need for any alteration that doesn't directly cut back time as the village is supposed to stay unconnected (!) in this theme. It's amazing and just deserves an approve because it doesn't just fit the definition of Mafia, it is the very definition. It is also a theme I would never voluntarily start up as it is not my style (like Kurapika stated, slow-paced and without power roles), but that is NO reason to discredit my post like that.

    -not quoting Mario Götze here, totally legit-

     
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Did you ever see someone saying "Player X followed Y's vote, they must be partners"? This is a method to get clues (because original mafia game worked purely this way), and there are other ways that don't depend on any information given by the game script.

    I think this whole discussion would be more interesting if someone could link the very first mafia game ruleset so no one will need to discuss what mafia truly is (all that will be left is to discuss if this fits #Mafia).
     
  19. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    Suggestion: Get rid of that extra 30 second "discussion" period. That would shorten games by a good 33% (45 seconds per player removed vs. 1 minute), and I feel that would be a whole lot more manageable. There's plenty of time to discuss in a minute and a half anyways, and making it that long is only begging for Steel to disable your theme because it is taking too long. Whine about strategy and how it is a special case all you want, Vepix didn't get an exception, and neither will this.
     
  20. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    0
    @jalmont:
    Fisrt of all, I'm sorry if I have been misunderstood by you or if I was rude. I was particularly in a not so good day, and, unfortunately, I brought it to here. What I meant to say with the first part you quoted is that this point have already been said and I didn't need to say again another thing that has already been said. Actually, I guess that our discussion, despite being a really good discussion and well argued, haven't been adding so many things as it could: we're basically saying the same things with some different words. But, if you really want to insist on this, I can keep giving you my points and opinions. You can PM me too, if you prefer.
    About the second part you quoted, I understood exactly what I responded. It seemed you preferred to play mafia with some few people you know they know how to play mafia with every possibilites, thoughts and etc. on their minds instead of having a channel full of fresh new minds with a great potential to be molded - and taught. If they don't know how to play mafia, this is good. They WILL commit mistakes. They WILL learn with them. They WILL improve. And how can a mistake be done in this theme? Fail rands are not mistakes, they are just part of this theme. If this was not your idea, sorry. I feel that just this theme won't improve every player mafia skills, like you said. I guess that many other themes, and roles from them, can teach people, gradually, how to act and what to do with them at most various situations; much more than a simple conversation (discussion is a important part of this theme, but I guess it should not be the only part, like I said a million times). They must feel what they are doing. Discussing as a villager can already be done on other themes. I don't guess we need a theme ONLY for this. So, yes, I am keeping my judgement about this.

    @Trosh:
    Same here. Sorry, I mixed up my personal and PO lifes... and screwed up things :x
     
  21. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    283
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    Perhaps I'll say some stuff which, depending on how one interprets it, may or may not directly concern this thread (you should be able to interpret it as such, though!)

    So, the people that argue that this will just be based on people making random guesses: where is the proof for this? There are games where the inspector or other information-gathering roles die the first night, yet village still wins, which wouldn't be possible if they weren't able to vote off mafia. The information-gathering roles aren't the only way to find a mafia and lynch them. Also, as an example, Survivor's Zombie side doesn't have an inspector (iirc). Yesterday, in a game I was in, the Zombies were able to determine all but one of the Survivors; this was based solely on voting/speaking patterns. The Zombies probably would have been able to win given another day (stupid poison timer) or if certain people had been less stupid. Aside from the last Survivor (who actually was rather sneaky), the Zombies were able to kill and lynch the Survivors confidently. [EDIT8: It appears that games was actually warstoried]

    For those who argue villager is boring: I would attribute this to the fact that there are other power roles in the theme, and you would rather be them than a villager. However, in this theme, if you are good, then you are a villager. Thus, everyone is equal; no one's opinion, say, an inspector's, is more important than another's. Villager being boring shouldn't be generalized; it would depend on the theme you're playing. In other themes, as villager, I've been able to not pay any attention at all during the game while the PRs do all the work and I hadn't been needed to do anything unless I happened to not die by the time there were 3-7 or so players and the vote mattered. Village would still have been able to win, regardless if I did anything. In this theme, villagers sitting around doing nothing would be disastrous, since they are the only roles that can do anything about the mafia. Since everyone else is the same role as you (bar mafia), your contributions matter just as much as anyone else's. Whether it is boring or not to someone will probably depend on themselves and how they act. If someone just mulls around complaining that being villager is boring, of course that will be boring. But if they actually do stuff, things start to get more exciting.

    On a side note, I think this would be particularly helpful for introducing new players to mafia. Its simplicity would be appealing for such.

    EDIT: Responding to people in spoiler tag as to not make most too long :[
    EDIT5:
    Also, I could probably say this for my responses, although without the striked out part.

    EDIT2:
    This is completely stupid. What in the world are you (in particular) doing during mafia games???

    EDIT3:
    >implying botquoting proves anything

    (12:48:39) ±Game: You are a Bunker!

    This is actually more on the random side and unrelated to this, though, heh

    EDIT4:
    @ the first 2 quotes: it's not necessary about claiming as much as how you act. Claiming itself could be considered suspicious.
    @ the Space Invaders example: it is not entirely unlikely that Nyoth found the celebrating suspicious; things like that attract attention. Also, define what you mean by "celebrating" and "helped remove", if you please. Was the celebrating excessive? By helping remove, do you meaning starting a vote against them or just voting for them amongst other players?

    jalmont probably said stuff better, tbh

    EDIT6:
    How would getting rid of the discussion period help? I think the discussion makes up most of the theme and is the whole point; without discussion, people have nothing to go off of. Getting rid of the discussion defeats the purpose of the theme and it wouldn't be a very good solution for the time problem. Going straight to voting wouldn't be a problem if people were allowed to change votes.

    EDIT7:
    I found this the most interesting part if this post; is it really? How long does it take for one to explain even default, going through all the actions and roles and such? Also, while default may teach about the basic actions, where are the logical deductions taught or experienced? For newcomers, I'd say this is probably better than default even.

     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  22. Drapht

    Drapht Move on

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    109
    Likes Received:
    0
    i love the idea of the theme, however the execution is a little off, it works better IRL and would just be stupid online, too easy to mask your thoughts behind a keyboard Reject (3)
     
  23. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ummmm, it's right in the part you quoted? The only real issue I see with the theme (I agree that people need to play better, and we should at least test out this theme to see if it will help) is that games will last too long. It may not be the best solution for the time problem, but it is the only one that won't require messing around with the code a lot.

    You're implying this would end all and any discussion, while in fact you have a good minute or so to decide who to intelligently vote out.

    Ask yourself this: the extra time was added purely on basis of conjecture- "this theme will require discussion, ergo we must make it longer." Is this necessarily true? Isn't 1 minute of discussion enough? If it isn't, how would else would you fix it? Would you rather the theme be rejected/disabled for taking too long than be on the server, and have a bit less time?

    Extol the virtues of a basic theme like this all you want, you're going to have to make some compromises to get anywhere.

    Another idea that may be a bit more agreeable: Shorten the night phase to 15-20 seconds since only 1 command is used in an entire night with no PRs and a shared kill, lengthen the day to 45-60 seconds for your valuable discussion time, and also shorten the voting phase to 12-20 seconds since people will already have established who to vote out at that point.
     
  24. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    I don't know, but when you really look at it, just because Garden was disabled due to time doesn't mean time is an issue in this theme at all. For one, Garden was not focused around communication; it had a central goal and when people complained, it was because it took too long to reach that goal. With a theme revolving around communication, time is suddenly much more important as people will be actively using that time instead of sitting around waiting for something to happen to them. I do feel that more time is always better, but I certainly think that if we need to lower it to get past this stage, we can go back and up the time if we deem it necessary.

    I'm a little shocked at this sentence. Who in this thread is whining? I haven't seen any whining; we are simply intelligently discussing this theme. I am also a little confused as to what you mean by Vepix not getting an exception? Not only is Vepix entirely irrelevant as it doesn't have any similar concepts to this theme, I do not understand why any exceptions are being made to this theme. If you are referring to me and other supporters of this theme, I think you would be wrong in thinking we want exceptions to be made. All we are doing is making arguments as to why this theme should be approved; if you think people are whining, please tell us who you believe is whining so they can stop. I think we should treat this discussion as civil as possible. Of course, I could have misunderstood the meaning behind that statement, so I would appreciate some form of clarification.

    While I do understand your concerns about timing, it will only be a problem if the channel decides it to be a problem. Frankly, due to this theme being all about talking, it would be my belief that players would want more time to discuss what to do. That being said, I do think that if we need to lower the time limit in order to push this through review then we should do so and come back later to the issue of timing and see what must be done. As for the rest of your post I pretty much believe that we should focus on playtesting by getting this approved and return to the issue of timing then.

    This was an unnecessary sentence, you don't need to attack our position just because we are arguing for this theme. We are making good points, refute them if you believe them to be untrue, being sarcastic is unnecessary when no one is being rude. No one has rejected the idea of a compromise, I don't know where you are getting that from. I guess the thing is here that you have to be more specific, as I am confused to who is refusing to compromise!

    I'm sorry to say, but this is a really close-minded attitude towards the theme. Saying it would "be stupide online" is a false statement as there are entire sites built off this style of gameplay. Here is an example of a game that revolves around communication. Obviously, this game has PRs and such, but the basic idea is the same; no village leader. I can find examples of vanilla games too if you wish. The point here is that if you reject this because it doesn't work online, that simply is not true as it is proven to work online. The real question is will it work on the server. My belief is that the answer is yes.

    will get the rest later
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  25. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Voting Phase's length can't be changed. It's either 30 seconds + 8 seconds for each vote after the 22nd second or exactly 30 seconds (if vote sniping is enabled).
    Even if it was possible, I believe having that phase so short because "people will already have established who to vote out at that point" would make players unable to discuss/argument after they receive a vote, making counters or other stuff impossible (it would basically transform all vote phases in bandwagons).

    On a related note, I think the lack of a /unvote command really hurts this theme in comparison to the IRL and Forum versions, since watching people unvote can be a really effective way of detecting someone's alignment.
    (inb4 someone suggest I code that)
     
  26. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    The irony of this post. Somebody against a theme with no centralising figures, where every-one must think for themselves, brings out a quote in which a leader has royally screwed up. Clearly, Nyoth was a new player. As in Vanilla he cannot get a Power Role, wouldn't it be fairer on new and old players both?

    P.S. It's bullshit this theme has got 3 Declines. Various QC members are being completely closed-eyed. "aaah, no PR to rally around? Whatever shall we do?". Have you considered that people could have said the same thing about FF? Now look where it is.

    P.P.S. Making personal attacks on jalmont is a stupid idea and if you think he "has never played Mafia!11!!1" and "he sucks at it!1111!" then please go and read various forum mafias on this exact site he's been in, or even Smogon.
     
  27. Darkkis

    Darkkis The Superhero of Mafia

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    228
    Likes Received:
    0
    My take on this theme:

    I've never played even one Mafia game like this. But I'd love to! Unfortunately many people on PO won't think the same way as I do, and they'll likely get bored playing this theme being used to have PR's and stuff in Mafia themes. :/ I would accept this if I was QC, new players would learn the game by playing this and this probably would teach people about randing.
     
  28. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    3
    From what I understood, the primary reason people have been rejecting is because it simply takes too long, which makes it boring coupled with the fact that there are no PRs (except the mafia of course)
     
  29. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    16
    PO Trainer Name:
    T. E. Lawrence
    It seems like a few of you (*cough cough*) are doing a pretty good job of arguing my case for me. But I do still have a couple opinions!

    Night phases: shortened to 15s, probably could work with 10 but there should be a little time for players to say "oh my I wonder whom this past lynch implicates." Something I would like to reconsider if/when we test the theme.

    Day phases (again): something I was thinking about was 10s Night/50s Day/30s Vote, so each cycle would only take 90 seconds by default. However, this cuts the time on both mafia deliberation and town discussion a bit shorter than one might like.

    Voting: Votesniping is definitely something to consider. After all, probably the majority of forum games (especially those where you can't edit posts :/) don't extend voting deadlines unless the hosts are really desperate. It would also give the mafia an edge in the 1 mafia vs 3 town scenario—instead of a potential stalemate where the town says "nv@4" and the mafia says "I don't want to screw up my chances" the mafia would have a chance to win the game if nobody else votes. That may make 5-player games a lot harder for the town than they should be, though.
    Also, as far as I can tell (via the server script and TUO's thread) there's no way to set the ticks for voting. If there were I would probably do it though, because who needs 30 seconds to vote when you're supposed to have been talking about that already? This doesn't work as an argument for shortening the day phase though, because a lot of players would probably vote ASAP.
    I agree that /unvote would be cool, but in my experience that's mainly used in games where voting is a continual process throughout the day, not a separate, shorter phase. (Feel free to refute me on this as I have played the former mainly on forums and the latter mainly on irc so the customs might just be different.)

    Vanilla doesn't work online: Simple response for a simple complaint, yes it does! The old version was silly, but the games were quite a bit of fun, and the mafia probably won too frequently in larger games but only because that was the old version where their numbers increased too quickly.

    Personal attacks/upset flying around: smh
     
  30. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2012
    Messages:
    261
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think this theme would be an interesting change of pace with a bit of nostalgia thrown in. This is the like the simple form of mafia you would play with a group of friends. You didn't have all those fancy roles like kefka, poisoners, votekillers, pls and the like. Just the bg and inspector. Of course this is even more simple then that. I think it would be an interesting and very unique addition for our repertoire of themes. We can always adjust it if needed and it wouldn't be hard to adjust either. Approve [6]
     
  31. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    53
    PO Trainer Name:
    Fegelein
    You've fixed my only complaint with the theme.
    Approve [7]
     
  32. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    283
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    tbh I think this theme would be better with the day being a 60-second voting phase where you could unvote, but since that's not an option the time set-up is probably the best that can be done.

    Although with 15 seconds, the mafia probably won't be able to discuss with each other and come up with a consensus on who to kill.
     
  33. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,445
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    PO Trainer Name:
    MeowMix
    yeah, but there has to be some kind of compromise in terms of time, so shortening the night phase seems like the best way to go about it since the day should be used entirely for discussion. smart mafia should be planning out their nightkill during the day anyway.

    and yeah, /unvote would make so much sense with this, but we don't have that quite yet.

    lol @ drapht's reject
     
  34. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    Cause I'm too lazy to skim the words for the people I'm talking about:
    I'll occasionally vote against the revealed PRs, especially in Space Invaders, because I'm allowed to. No rule forbids me from voting against a player that claims Inspector, and no rule forbids me to vote against the Laser Cannon after they have already voted.

    P.P.P.S: Forum Mafia != Server Mafia and are in no way comparable.

    Here is an example of a Forum Mafia Game.
    Contrary to popular belief, there is a difference between Forum and Server Mafia. I know it's a huge shock, and I was furious when I found out too... its almost like finding out that Pokemon don't really exist... It just destroys your entire life... What purpose is there to even wake up in the morning after finding that out?



    On a final note: I feel that the people supporting this theme play more forum mafia than the people that do not support the theme. Attack me all you want for this, but I feel like that only furthers the point that Vanilla should not be a Server Mafia theme as it fits as a Forum Mafia one better.
     
  35. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    If you have to resort to ad hominem to prove a point; save everyone the trouble and don't bother. I said it on the server and I will say it here; acting elitist and refusing to listen to good, solid evidence on the basis that forum mafia =/= server mafia is entirely ludicrous. Even if they are different, they share the same basic fundamentals; denying that just shows how ignorant you are acting. I am sure you a great individual, but after this I cannot take anything you say seriously. Any respect I had for you is now completely gone. By resorting to attacking the character of people it shows you cannot handle this discussion, as that is something entirely irrelevant to this debate (that's like me saying "everyone rejecting this theme is only doing so based on the color of my skin").

    I was considering making an insulting post but I decided that you just aren't worth it.
     
  36. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    I can make that for you!

    Nah, jk. But seriously, Fuzzysqurl. We are trying to have a serious discussion here. Resorting to sarcasm and personal insults, regardless of someone's position or who's right or wrong, is only going to make people ignore your posts and hurt your argument.
     
  37. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    Many apologies to those that I have seemingly insulted. My motives seemed to have gotten the better of me and in the heat of debate I just threw words down on the screen for the sake of argument. As a result, I will no longer be visiting this thread as to prevent this from continuing.

    I will still be holding my opinion that it would not work with our current set up and player base. I'm not saying in an ideal world it wouldn't work, but seeing all the new people joining that aren't getting properly taught and making newbie mistakes will make the theme a flop. Eventually, it might turn out good, and I am hopeful that I will be able to see that one day. But lately with all the new players, its difficult to tell for certain whether this theme is practical as a Server Mafia theme as they aren't as well versed as other players.

    So good day and etc etera, I wish you all the best.
     
  38. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Mario Götze
    Perhaps I was being unclear (soz). By whine I wasn't specifically referring to anyone. No one is whining. I was referring to it in the future tense, eg. say it was on the server and then it got disabled, then would arise the whining I was referring to, which probably wouldn't happen but I was just making a general statement. Don't take to much offense from it; I didn't mean it that way.

    Is that not an exception? Just as Vepix revolved around being a noobkiller (which is bad) and for that reason people wanted to make an exception for it, here we have another theme that goes along the general ideas of what a theme shouldn't be (too long, which is usually bad), and we have people saying that it needs to be that long in order to work. In my mind, this is an exception along the same lines, as even if the themes don't have the similar concepts, the argument is the same.

    And I'm not saying that we shouldn't be able to make such exceptions (I was, and still am of the firm belief that Vepix should be on the server), I'm just not sure it would fly with the higher ups.

    Yeah, that's not what I was saying. Once again note that I am actually supportive of the concept of the theme (take a look at my other posts). And that's not an unnecessary sentence at all- I'm saying that the theme needs changes, and what I'm getting from the posts I've read is that you don't want to budge from the 30 second extra discussion period (if I'm wrong correct me). I don't see how I am attacking your position, I am saying that since we are divided on this issue, we need to meet in the middle.

    Okay good. So you are open to shortening the night phase before making the day phase a bit longer?

    I'm afraid sarcasm is part of my parlance. Like it or not, that's how I usually go about arguing things. I'm not going to change that. However, I do try to refrain from personal attacks, since those types of arguments are stupid, but apparently my message was unclear. We're also making some good points against yours as well; feel free to refute.

    I don't think it works this way. We don't playtest a theme with an broken (from my point of view, as well as many others) mechanic and fix it later; we fix it before it gets uploaded to the server. This is QC, after all.
     
  39. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2012
    Messages:
    258
    Likes Received:
    16
    PO Trainer Name:
    T. E. Lawrence
    @Fuzzy:
    I know you said you wouldn't post here again (again I am mildly miffed that so much vitriol got into a theme review thread) but it's still a good excuse to bring up this point:
    Why do you need to be well-versed in order to be good at this?

    There are only 2 roles, and the most basic description of mafia (informed minority armed with a night-time kill vs uninformed majority armed with a day-time lynch) is this theme's most in-depth description. So if you have someone who has literally never played mafia, with one sentence that player knows what's going on. Granted, someone with more honed mafia reasoning skills will do a better job lynching mafia or acting like town, but that's only ideally true, which brings me to my next point.

    The "older" server players are the most likely to have the idea ingrained in their minds that mafia has PRs and village leads, that being a villager means less participation is expected of you. It would be rather selfish, too selfish even for me (which is saying something) to jump into the "this should replace default as a learning tool" mindset, but still, people who are familiar first and foremost with default and other sort of standard themes on the server are used to reasoning that might actually hinder them in this case.

    So there's a balance. On the one hand you have inexperienced players who might not really know how to scumhunt, but they should hopefully at least be interested enough to learn—this is the same as in any other theme, it's just what you learn that's different. And on the other hand you have experienced players who know mafia strategy a bit better, but may rely on customs that don't apply. I don't mean to say that everybody is going to suck (although that would be pretty funny), but rather that regardless of past server experience, within a couple games at least I imagine the players who will do best are the most quick-witted, intelligent, literate, or whatever exactly it is that can make someone good at mafia.

    The point you made about forum mafia players, while used to draw the wrong conclusion, was actually a good one. The reason why forum players are more in support than server players, assuming this is even true, probably isn't that there's some gap between forum and server mafia they fail to comprehend. Rather, players who've only ever done mafia on the server have most likely never played a vanilla game, and it's fairly different from the usual, so it's potentially as simple as fear of the unknown. Meanwhile, players mainly from forums (or irc! :D) are more likely to have played vanilla games and had fun with them.

    @Tesla:
    Well, as it stands right now, each cycle is only 15 seconds longer than the one for default or other standard themes. That's a 16.67% increase in time alone, although one still has to factor in the fact that there's only 1 kill per night. That's not really the point I want to make, though—comparing this to Vepix as an "exception" is a bit of a false equivalency. Vepix uses code designed for another purpose (i.e. every other theme ever) to make a theme that is, in all honesty, pretty poor. The "ticks" variable in the code was clearly meant to be used or else it wouldn't have been approved, so in my very biased opinion it's not as much of a perversion to extend a phase and shorten another. Part of Vepix is that you're supposed to just /kill without a thought; part of Garden is that you're supposed to wait for seeds to grow; Vanilla doesn't fundamentally require that you take a long time deliberating but it's a sacrifice made to promote skillful playing. So this theme may be long, but it's not intended to piss anybody off.

    And there's a difference between the testing server and the main server. I can't find a formal mission statement for PO2 test mafia, but just based on what I gather it is supposed to be used when practical concerns can't be determined by a theoretical discussion. While balance is the most obvious example, I think a question like "How long is too long?" or "Is the time lost due to lack of votesniping enough to compensate for the lack of BSing?" is worthy of that type of test before passing judgment. Only a few posts in this thread are still about how it is inherently impossible for vanilla to work, but many of the arguments (if I may put words into your mouth...yours, for example) are about—or stem from—these practical questions. So sorry if it seems like I am just sitting on my hands waiting for people to flock to PO2, but just like debating theorymon in a suspect thread it seems a little pointless until we have hard evidence.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  40. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    59
    Any more vitriol and I will infract.