Vanilla

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by waehofen, Nov 17, 2012.

  1. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    The oldest and simplest setup in the game, Vanilla pits a large but powerless mob against a small informed minority with a night kill. Nothing more.

    Don't let its simplicity fool you: Vanilla games are one of the most fun ways to play mafia, and also incredibly analytical. Even though we used to play a version with a certain person's name tacked all over it, I think we should take it more "seriously" now, especially since we have a server for testing balance. (Speaking of balancing—unlike a certain other adventure on this forum, Vanilla is unquestionably the easiest setup to balance, so I won't postpone updates indefinitely if it looks too easy for the mafia to win.)

    By my count this supports 39 20 roles, and if you played it with any more than that you'd be at it for a while. (Yeah that's still true lol)

    I've set the day phase to 1 minute 45 seconds because you really don't win this without conversation but apparently I have to draw the line somewhere. I can undo that if the games take too long though. I have also set the night phase to 15 seconds by popular demand, as there is only one night action. Let's try 20 seconds? Apparently the mafia members were having a hard time remembering to kill :p

    If you don't like links, here is the theme:
    Code (javascript):
    1.  
    2. {
    3.     "version": "Vanilla Mafia ver 2.3",
    4.     "name": "Vanilla",
    5.     "author": "waehofen",
    6.     "summary": "Vanilla Mafia!  There are no special abilities in this game.  In this version, the mafia:total players ratio decreases as the number of players gets larger.  I'll work on balancing it if it doesn't work! -waehofen",
    7.     "ticks": {
    8.         "standby": 45,
    9.         "night": 20
    10.     },
    11.     "sides": [
    12.         {
    13.             "side": "village",
    14.             "translation": "Village"
    15.         },
    16.         {
    17.             "side": "mafia",
    18.             "translation": "Mafia"
    19.         }
    20.     ],
    21.     "roles": [
    22.         {
    23.             "role": "v",
    24.             "translation": "Villager",
    25.             "side": "village",
    26.             "help": "Hi!  You're a Villager, but you don't have any special abilities :(",
    27.             "actions": {}
    28.         },
    29.         {
    30.             "role": "m",
    31.             "translation": "Mafia",
    32.             "side": "mafia",
    33.             "help": "Hi!  You're Mafia, so you can /kill (shared with your team) during the Night.",
    34.             "actions": {
    35.                 "night": {
    36.                     "kill": {
    37.                         "target": "AnyButTeam",
    38.                         "common": "Team",
    39.                         "priority": 1,
    40.                         "broadcast": "team"
    41.                     }
    42.                 },
    43.                 "startup": "team-reveal"
    44.             }
    45.         }
    46.     ],
    47.     "roles1": ["v", "v", "v", "m", "v", "v", "v", "v", "m", "v", "v", "v", "v", "v", "m", "v", "v", "v", "v", "v"],
    48.     "villageCantLoseRoles": []
    49. }
    50.  

    One last note:
    I did a little bit of searching to see if anybody had submitted a Vanilla theme before me and didn't find any. If I missed one feel free to make fun of me and lock/delete the thread but please be aware that I tried. I remember Caterpie being compared to this, but honestly, that theme has hax, poison, daykills, revenge, and 10 roles, so it's pretty far removed from the basic version here.

    EDIT 1: Game size now ranges from 5 to 20 players instead of 5 to 39

    EDIT 2: Night phase now takes 15 seconds instead of 30

    EDIT 3: Night phase now takes 20 seconds instead of 15

    EDIT 4: Day phase now takes 45 seconds instead of 60
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  2. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    Hmmm.

    Boiling down mafia to its simplest constituents is a novel idea, and could make for a ton of analysis and teamwork in the absence of commands. However, I'm afraid this theme would be incredibly unpopular, since being villy isn't exactly most players idea of "fun" (yer playin' it wrong guise).

    I'd say keep this to a test server maybe. We have way too many themes right now, and something as basic like this is rather superfluous with default around. If it did get uploaded I wouldn't mind though.
     
  3. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    People who dislike playing as vanilla don't know how to play vanilla. Playing as vanilla is so much fun simply because you have no responsibilities. This is one of the things I love doing; shouting at people, trying to read people's comments, how people vote, who is talking and who is not, in order to determine who is mafia.

    That being said, people will probably bitch and moan about this just because "playing as vanilla is boring blah blah blah." IMO this theme would force players to actually play mafia.

    These are just my first thoughts, hopefully this will get approved, although knowing waehofen...
     
  4. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    I agree with jalmont. Complaining about villager is silly. You have freedom. No responsibilities. To be honest, I quite like this theme - I believe themes are growing complex and PR-heavy. This is something we need more of, pure simplicity.
     
  5. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    god forbid a theme forces players to think for themselves instead of relying on power roles to win for them
     
  6. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    Even though this is a simple theme and nice to play - I played that referred version named after a player, waehofen ^.^ - and also requires lots of conversations, this is extremely unbalanced, in my opinion. The village has absolutely no way to connect, just guess and guess... Except from the part where people talk, this theme also lacks strategy. I enjoy simple themes, but this is far too spiceless. Imagine a 30 people game. With 1 kill per night, standby lasting 1 minute and one person being voted per day... it could take... almost an hour, depending on who was being lynched! So... yeah, I'm declining [1] it :( Please, solve these problems then I can reconsider my thoughts.
     
  7. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    Why is this unbalanced? What I'm getting from your post is that you believe it's unbalanced because the village has no way to connect PRs... which is kind of the whole point of this theme. It's unique in that vanilla is really the true way to play mafia. Not with a bunch of bloated roles that can be confusing. Just because village has no PRs doesn't make it unbalanced.

    How does it lack strategy? If anything, this requires the most strategy of any theme on the server. Many games I play have the same thing happen over and over again. PR claims, they clean people, lynch mafia. End game. This is a replica of a tried and true mafia setup that has consistently worked in the past. While that isn't a reason to accept it, I'm trying to say that there is plenty of strategy required. If you play smart, games shouldn't be guesswork at all.

    I agree though that I'd only really want to play for smaller games. It doesn't really work for big games because it's hard to keep track of who is saying what etc.

    re: game is unbalanced
    just wanted to say that I'm a firm believer in each village having a some sort of protection + inspection. obviously that takes away the entire concept of the theme, but if get to the point where people say that this needs changes before approval, i think we should def. entertain that idea. I'm sure wae knows what to do though!
     
  8. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    No way to connect? Right, I guess it's part of what I meant. But also, playing reasonably as a bad waehofen Mafia, can make you to control both lynch and night. Remember Mafia already controls the night. If there can be absolutely no legit lead, Village won't be able to control the day phase, which I guess that is the objective of being part of the village.

    Like I said, I like this kind of simple and/or gimmik themes, but this needs more improvement.

    Except from speaking, the only strategy I can think on this game is, being a Mafia, to kill the Villager that could successfully rand your teammate.

    This could make things a bit more interesting, but less leadless... I have a suggestion: add a bodyguard or a vigilante and an inspector.
    - First of all, you could make the inspector to inspect villager 40% of times, this way he can't clean anyone, but can provide a lead ocasionally.
    - If you choose to have the Vigilante, make him just a vigilante and give him and the inspector reveal on each other.
    -- In case this makes the village OP, remove the reveal on each other and make the vigilante inspected as a villager, so the insp can't clean even him.
    - If you prefer the Bodyguard, make him a simple bodyguard.

    Just like I said, these were just suggestions, you can refuse them, if you feel they are bad and go totally against of what you thought.
     
  9. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    But village does control the day phase? They use their votes to decide who they think is most likely mafia. You don't need a village leader to be organized. Obviously this doesn't work well in larger games, but it works wonderfully with 16 or so people. I don't really see how the village doesn't control the day phase. I mean they still have majority right? They decide to vote x out. X gets voted out. If someone does counters, then they will likely be seen as mafia. These are all just ways villagers contribute to the town.

    Again the point of this theme isn't for the village to "rand." Likewise, the mafia isn't attempting to kill random villagers. The village is forced to scumhunt, by discussing likely mafia candidates in the chat. The mafia kills who they think is helping the village the most, like someone who is acting as a de facto village leader.

    The goal of this theme isn't for people to rand who they feel like, it is for people to use their brains and try and find mafia without relying on (mostly overpowered) external roles to help them out.
     
  10. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    introducing a bodyguard and an inspector makes would make this a shitty version of default. one or the other isn't too terrible, but then this is no longer just a game of vanilla.

    I'm not sure why people seem to think this would require no strategy. just because some server players are unsure how to process when they aren't being led by information roles doesn't mean that every single lynch will be an uneducated rand; the whole point of this theme is for the village to deduce who the scum are via conversation. of course, not having an unvote feature kind of hurts this type of game, but if anything that will cause people to try and make more informed decisions.

    however, I will agree that the game will be quite long in larger games; a max cap of 20 might help in that regard.
     
  11. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Giving the Inspector a 60% chance of failure is rather bs, just saying. I don't think Vanilla should have PR's, it just detracts from it.
     
  12. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    As much as I like this theme, I can't see this drawing off controversy. I'm going to have to think about this.
     
  13. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Since Caterpie was mentioned here, let me share my thoughts.

    I like the idea of a vanilla theme, but I strongly believe it won't work in PO's Mafia. Even if you increase standby's duration, PO is still too fast paced for a theme that relies on people detecting any hint of other player's intentions. Vanilla work really well in IRL mafia because players will give more signs and can be easily read by those (for example, voice tone or body language). I don't know how this setup works in Forum Mafia, but if it works well, I believe it's because players have more possibilities to analyze other players and because there no script limitations.

    Caterpie was not meant to be a vanilla theme. It was meant to be a theme that forces players to make actions equivalent to those IRL gestures (for example, making them talk about their hax, or paying attention to who's targetted) so other players can detect those behaviours and deduce their intentions. Caterpie is already a bit limited regarding how much it can make players give signs, so I believe this Vanilla theme would need something else to make villagers able to find information (not necessarily an action).
     
  14. Xinc

    Xinc Time for Oras?

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    Novel idea, with lynch happy villagers and shooting happy mafia. I remember a vanilla theme before mafia review having a cop, villagers, and mafia only, like the actual party game Mafia. With the lack of a cop, the villagers are shooting randomly in the day. One of the things I liked how you did this was that there was a 1:4 mafia to villager, meaning that shooting randomly in the day equals a 1/5 chance to kill, provided the mafia hasn't killed.
     
  15. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    You could try to balance the game by setting Mafia's target to AnyButSelf, broadcast to none, and remove startup:team-reveal, and make them appear 1:3.
     
  16. Demonic Cake

    Demonic Cake The cake is not a lie...

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    ^I agree with this, it'd be pretty neat. Just how would the Mafia connect?
     
  17. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    That would defeat the whole "Informed Minority Vs Uninformed Majority" aspect of the theme.
     
  18. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Also crossfire is the same thing unless they can't kill teammates letting them spam to connect anyway.
     
  19. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    Alright, since I'm online again I'll address everything so far as best I can.

    Oh and before I get to that, with Night-Day-Vote at 30s-1m-30s, assuming a lynch each day (which is generally what happens) and a kill each night (which is guaranteed) one person dies every minute on average. So when we talk about how long games take, just keep that in mind. (I'm saying this as much for my own memory as anyone else's information.)

    Tesla Elesa: Admittedly, Vanilla setups are a bit polarizing here, but that doesn't mean they can't get crowds. They certainly seem to have fans (a lot of this thread), even among people who don't like default that much in its current state! I think many themes could be considered polarizing in the same way, though—some users hate ponies, some dislike a theme with too high or too low a chance of a village victory (compare default to, idk, Elements? Fruit?), some do not want to get into a theme if it has too much unfamiliar flavor. It's not really the same as default though! And I doubt that the sMAs would approve of me making a theme exclusively for a testing server, since that goes against the idea of a testing server. So I do very much want to get this theme on that server, but not for any nefarious purposes.

    ö: Aww, how nice! And then...rude!

    SteelEdges: Indeed, freedom! The reason being villager in most themes isn't popular is because you have power roles telling you what to do. In this theme, if someone starts telling everybody what to do it's either a really cool guy or mafia.

    Other ö:

    Li Q. Assir: I'm not quite sure what you mean by imbalanced—a concept like this one can't innately be unbalanced. Imagine if I were to set min players to 10 and then never add another mafia player. The town would win every game. If I kept the mafia at n/2-1 they would probably win every game. If you just mean the specific mafia:town at certain numbers of players, I want to get this tested precisely to fix that. :) Also, "Except from the part where people talk, this theme also lacks strategy"—well, I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, but maybe you should have thought twice before posting that part? One of the nice things about PO #mafia is that it's totally ok to carry out discussion during Night phase and even as you lynch. And yeah if you guys want I can put the max at 15 or 20 players so it won't take as long, although I should probably make sure that's ok for a theme first.

    ö: Agree with most of it but I plan on adding no PRs, thanks very much.

    Li Q. Assir: Well the problem with having a lead in a vanilla theme is that if you don't: the—let's call it 80%—of the players who are villagers all have a bit of fun and have to figure out what's going on. If you have even one player who is pretty much definitely good and can make the "most educated" guesses, that's now 80% who are just sitting around following someone else's vote like default. Adding in one role took it straight from a ton of people having a good amount of fun to almost everybody having no fun at all.
    As far mafia killing off people who would rand them, it's good to look at the kills as villager for precisely that reason. In a lot of non-vanilla themes, I play like a villager in a vanilla game, just kind of calling out someone I find mildly suspicious and throwing a vote down. Generally when I am right, which isn't too rare an occurrence if I may say so myself, I get killed the next night, and it usually takes the rest of the game days and possibly an inspect to figure out what happened. Vanilla forces you to tune into that logic, and may actually make the channel cooler just by virtue of playing it!
    ...Well, that's just my secret evil plan, but still, there's a lot of strategy to this that gets overlooked in more complex themes.

    ö: You bring up another good point about strategy that is often ignored in other themes: countering is a scum-tell really often. I've gotten lynched by some pretty blatant mafia in the past because the village followed counters....

    Other ö: Looks like you're the third person to post twice and the third to suggest a smaller max size. I understand the correlation and will just chop it off before the fourth mafia member gets added after I finish this post and determine if I am allowed to do a theme that small.

    TheSexiOne: I agree entirely.

    Fegelein: I hope you make the right decision...hint hint wink wink :p

    IceKirby: Really, a good amount of activity is a guarantee that the game will at least be interesting. Without overbearing bot messages, commands, and needlessly quick phases to worry about, there's a lot of room for discussion here, even if that discussion is just blindly throwing accusations to see what sticks. As long as people post a lot, and those posts aren't all "waah I don't like freedom" or whatever, it should be fun!

    Xinc: Yeah I like to put mafia between 1/5 and 1/4 but in bigger games that's probably too much. I believe wikipedia recommends something proportional to sqrt(players), so adding one player to the between-mafias number each time essentially simulates that.

    TheUnknownOne: I would rather have this stay Vanilla Mafia than become Wink Murder, but thanks anyway.

    Cake/IceKirby/TheSexiOne: Might as well lump you guys together since your posts were all about the same thing: if they are allowed to connect in that setting suggested by TUO they are pretty OP, and if they're not, then it's really a whole different thing.

    Anyway thanks for the feedback and such. Also will I be informed if it gets added to PO2 test mafia? I don't check that server very often.

    EDIT: So I was going to check on this like I said I would but then nobody was there, so I figured it would be OK anyway. As you can see in the OP games are now capped at 20 players.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  20. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    1 person dead per minute is too slow. Remember how Garden was disabled just because it took too long (I guess)? Set a max of 20 players? I guess this shouldn't be done. Even though mafia is pretty dead lately, we'd need at least a minimum of 30 players for peak times. Also, that 1person/min can easily increase if there is no vote snipe, because the voting phase may be extended too, depending on the time people take to vote.

    Like I said, and you have just did too, this theme will be totally based on guesses, educated or not (and I think many won't be that educated). I know how fun this game can be - I played that - and you are right when you say that people (at least myself) have fun when figuring who are the bad guys or who will be the next one to kill. I guess it is needed for village to have a safe voice/lead, just like on Space Invaders: follow the Laser. Magikarp is also another good example of a theme like this you want. Karps say who they are splashing, if they die, there is a lead, that can be or not faked by the Gyarados: with this, we have a game full of vanillas, but they can get a lead.

    About the referred balance. If one mafia is smart enough to be followed by the village, it's over. You said the village control the day because they have the numbers, right? Yes, right. And if a Mafia can persuade village to follow them, he gets full control of the game, which is bad for balance too, in my opinion.

    I understand these points. But discussion shouldn't be the ONLY source of information. Even in themes like Minesweeper, Space Invaders and default (lategame, without inspector/PL/spy), there can be a good discussion, but there are almost always some ways to find who the bad guys are.
    And, hey! I like this freedom! I just suppose it is not being correctly used here. I mean, with everyone being 100% free, we get an anarchy! I guess I already checked a theme - don't remember if at Critique and Improvement or here at Review - with a huge majority of vanilla, but there were ways to have a lead for the village! I appreciated that, if the author just had attemped a little bit more, that would have had a great future as a "vanilla" theme.

    Themes can be playtested on PO2 whenever QCs feel like that.
     
  21. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    But this theme isn't based on guesses??? I think the point has been made pretty clear. There are ways to find mafia that don't rely on a given role to give you an answer. You play this theme by talking; that's how mafia is supposed to be played. I guesss you could call it a "guess," but it really isn't.

    But why does there have to be a leader? The fact of the matter is that village leaders are unhealthy for balance anyways, and that adding one to this theme takes away the entire point. For example, take Space invaders. The village doesn't actually have to do anything. They follow the Laser and hope he hits alien. That's real randing/guessing. Discussion by other players is suppressed as most of the time, if the leader doesn't rand (lynching is always a good thing unless it's some weird theme for village has close to equal firepower with mafia) noobdy can take it upon themselves to follow their hunches as voting will lead to them getting countered. This theme solves this problem as well (countering on the whole is pretty dumb unless the rand is on a known PR).

    If anything, this is a good thing. If a mafia plays well enough to get into that position, then he is rewarded by taking over the village and (likely) winning. The villagers are punished for giving someone that immense power. That's what mafia is all about; rewarding good players for making good plays. Themes like this minimize the luck factor even more, which is something I feel we are trying to achieve. Rewarding players for good play shouldn't be seen as "bad for balance."

    Why shouldn't discussion be the only source of information? I see no reason why that is a bad idea. The themes you give as examples aren't good example because discussion isn't needed at all. In a perfect game of default where each player plays perfectly, barring extreme bad luck, the village wins 100% and the only words that need to be said are "I'm the inspector claim to me." While these themes may encourage discussion, inevitably there will be none, unless someone attempts to force discussion.

    I don't see what's wrong with having a theme that forces players to get out of their comfort zone and play outside the box. Mafia is supposed to be a thought-provoking game, so if people complaign about this being too "boring" or w/e (heaven forbid thought in a thought-based game!) then they should really question why they are playing mafia. I don't really see what the real problem is with this theme. Can someone point out what the specific problems are?
     
  22. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    I admit that the balance between good discussion, short games, and accommodation to large numbers of players is very difficult to maintain here. However, on the bright side, if parts of the channel are as unenthusiastic as some critics claim, then this might turn out to be an advantage.

    More like, I guess it is not? idk what's going on here

    Well, they aren't really vanillas in magikarp or space invaders or the like; in fact, they spend a large portion of their time considering what to do with their actions. It's a different form of investigation from just looking at posts and votes like you would in a vanilla game.

    This is the point of the theme though...the kills only power the theme and give the players a reason to do things (if there were no kills there would be no reason to lynch mafia); the dynamic between players during the day is what vanilla is all about. It's fundamentally different from "mod-confirmed" (or "bot-confirmed") actions and information.

    I just really don't like the somewhat closed-minded insistence that a theme has to have some form of objective method of information gathering (or a "lead" role) in order for the village to have a chance of winning, or perhaps just for the sake of being like other themes. The sense I get from this is that the intelligence and analytical skill of the players is undervalued—why pay close attention and challenge yourself to make intuitive leaps when you can find something that is 100% assured? LyLo and risk-taking are frequently the most fun elements of a good game, and Vanilla Mafia has that but all the time. If you stick in a lead, as I said before, it basically throws player participation right out the window, to the point that if a player tries to do anything independent he can actually get shunned by the channel.

    (Also, if you meant just for the sake of being like other themes...
    "A strong man doesn't need to read the future.
    He makes his own." –Solid Snake)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  23. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    waehofen fixed my only real problem with this theme so yeah

    Approved [1]

    before people start bitching about the size of the game, keep in mind that anything more than 20 is difficult to achieve at anytime that isn't peak and that the min/max rules have previously been been flexible anyway. obviously this isn't ideal for a normal theme, but for this particular one it should work out just fine.

    on balance: probably needs tweaking at certain v:m intervals but that simply requires playtesting. also lol at the idea of imbalance coming from a mafia leading the village around. that's not imbalance, since there's nothing inherently wrong with the setup; that kind of scenario is based entirely in the play.

    on information gathering roles: unnecessary. players will adapt to playing without them and actually become better players.
     
  24. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    This theme is quite exciting and a novel break from PR crash themes. The emphasis here is on careful analysis and not power roles, which is, in the end, what Mafia is about.

    approve (2)
     
  25. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    I'm considering vanillas to be the big voting mass. These are examples of themes that have their fishes (*ba dum tsss*) and aren't bonded to simple guess and "thinking that guy is acting very strangely... get him!". They have some more strategy than this vanillaness. But if there is no hope at all, these guesses can be made and the fingers can be pointed. I just think that they shouldn't be the WHOLE theme.

    Maybe it is just me, but I really dislike doing things that are not completely safe. I know, we must risk it sometimes, but doing this the whole time... it's like... insane for me. Perhaps I'm being too closed-minded about this situation, but it is really what I think; I have many diverse thoughts, I enjoy gimmick themes; and I don't believe these arguments are convincing me this theme is improving.

    Except from just speaking, discussing, debating... the village's chances are restricted to bad mafia actors. You know, only the mafias can act on this theme, to try to give the impression they are good - the villagers just have to be... themselves - and vote.

    Away from that! We are getting overloaded with themes with with some mafias and a village. We NEED diversity - even if in this shape I mentioned - but not restriced to it.

    @Snake, how I'd like to read the future... to know everything is going to happen... and make my future starting from my acquired knowledge. Being unable to do this, I prefer to work with the present, to know what are the current solid facts and build my future based on them.
     
  26. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    The problem with your argument is that it is entirely dependent on what you feel makes a good theme. I could be wrong, but with this post I feel like you are saying that you aren't convinced by our arguments because you hold the belief that the village must have a leader otherwise it isn't a good theme. The great thing about this theme not having a lead is that the village is forced to work together and make decisions, otherwise they lose 100% of the time. Even in other themes like space invaders, that central figure detracts from any sort of discussion because what they say goes, and doing something without their approval is seen as being mafia. We need to move away from the mindset of "hey he randed someone he must be mafia" and towards, "We have no info, and we need to vote. Who do we vote and why?" This theme is great because it forces people to think and get back to the true concepts of mafia. There is nothing wrong with gimmick themes, I like some of them too, but it is unfair to reject a theme solely on the premise that because it doesn't have a leader it's automatically a bad theme.

    This is entirely untrue. Have you ever read a NOC game? I advise you to do so, it's really quite interesting. There are ways for people to see what constitues a mafia's actions, like some of the stuff I've said earlier (voting patterns, not talking etc.) Everything is entirely in the village's hands. I guarantee you that a village that plays well when the mafia also plays well will win more than a village that plays poorly against a mafia that plays poorly (like the bad mafia actors you bring up.) And on this subject, plenty of themes have roles that are vanilla that don't do anything. If anything, PRs encourage to be inactive and quiet, and not really add thought to what you are doing. This theme changes that .What it looks like you are trying to say is that with no roles, only the mafia really has to play, as unless they play badly they automatically win. That simply isn't true at all as I've explained.

    I mean we could get into a debate on what constitues a mafia theme, but the fact of the matter is that the game of mafia is defined as uninformed majority vs informed minority. This game simply brings that back. Most themes nowadays might as well be big informed majority vs many small informed majorities as the information gap between villages and mafias is usually quite small. I don't see what's wrong with a theme going back to the roots of mafia.

    If I misunderstood you somewhere, let me know.
     
  27. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    While that is true, for some reason I doubt the competence of the average mafia player to make such astute observations, myself included. I do feel like this theme will force people to actually think before they act, but will we as a channel be able to acclimate to such a departure from customary procedure? Fact is, usually people play really poorly and manage to win on the basis of their commands/team alone. Of course there will most likely be a few such players that have the ability to analyze and act accordingly, but who's to say they won't be mafia? Seems like there will be a ton of bandwagoning when a supposedly informed individual votes and everyone else blindly follows.

    Just making some suppositions here; feel free to refute.
     
  28. Nainil

    Nainil The International of PO

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    Steel really said everything- this brings out the essence of Mafia, not just a PR fest where the village has to rely on PRs to get anywhere, and is severely crippled without. Now that the player limit has been halved I think I can see this theme going along fast enough. Therefore, this theme gets an Approve [3] from me.
     
  29. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    tesla, you're doing the same thing as Li and addressing the players as the problem, not the actual setup of the theme. poor play from the village or strong play from the mafia can have an impact on every theme regardless of how many power roles a theme contains, although I will readily admit that it is magnified in this type of game since there is no way to get information apart from a player's own observations.

    that being said, this can only be good for the channel in the long run. if the average mafia player can't currently make astute observations, why not at least attempt to put a theme on the server that challenges the players to do just that? this way, players become better and the games themselves become more enjoyable as the skill level of the channel in general rises.
     
  30. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    I think you're attributing a little too much to it. I highly doubt adding this singular theme onto the server will make people play any better and improve the skill (and hence fun levels) of the channel as a whole; people will just bitch a lot.

    I'm not against giving it a test run, which is why I haven't rejected it. But therein arises another issue from the actual set up of the theme: playing this will take way too long. Talk about strategy and analysis all you want, but no one in their right mind would want to play a 15+ minute game, let alone one in which nearly everyone is a villager.

    Going to decline [2] this until you figure out how to make it move quicker.
     
  31. Dark Phoenix

    Dark Phoenix Multidimensional Hero

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    Well before anyone else declines for a hypothesis on if the theme is slow or not before even play-testing - the theme Garden was play-tested heavily and it wasn't until it was actually uploaded that it was noted at how slow the game progressed. I think it should be common courtesy that we in-fact do play-test it before we go ahead and just slew off the opinion it is already slow. Not to take shots at anyone but that's my opinion.

    on to the theme, I think it is rather basic and I do like the choice of the word 'Vanilla' - as it is a common term in terms of everything that simplifies "original". I think this theme is taking a step back - and in a good way - in the direction mafia is headed. This theme is more of making the user analyze the situation whereas other themes just have you command at random..

    I'm going to accept #4 this for the fact that this theme is completely awesome going to be a nice-refresher to have people just come-in and enjoy without having to get confused on commands and all that jazz - but a good brain teaser, almost.
     
  32. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    Hmm, here's what I think...
    While I think others may find this theme controversial, this is mafia, hardcore style. No power roles, and it really amps up the difficulty, and also the fun. While the game might be running slowly, you have negated this.
    I still think the time is an issue, perhaps shaving time off the night phase (since there is only one command during the night)
     
  33. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    MeowMix already covered this, but I'll say it again. Whether or not players "break" or "control" the game should not be a mandatory requirement to a theme's approval. While I'm sure many of us have doubts about the intelligence of the average mafia player, I think we are underestimating their ability to play smartly. I honestly believe that presented a situation, the players will be able to avoid the traps of a single person "leading." Of course, we could also add that to the Tips and Tricks on our handy-dandy wiki page! Or perhaps even put that in the summary! This is an easily solved problem, if we can even call it a problem.

    re: game takes too long
    While this may be true, the argument that "players won't want to play a 15 minute game" is based more on assumption then anything. League of Legends, a highly popular game, consists of 30+ minute games, yet they do not suffer the problems of lack of interest. As long as people recognize that this may take a longer time then usual then a normal theme, then we can ask players to only join if they have time. I fail to see the difference between a 30 player theme that takes 15 minutes and a 15 player theme that takes 15 minutes. Realistically, the game should only take as long as there are players for it. If people can't handle the length of the game they shouldn't join. If games taking such a long time were truly a problem, then we would simply not allow games that went over a certain arbitrary time limit to take place. I will agree that 30 seconds for night may be enough, especially if the day is 1 minute plus.

    re: people bitching
    If players play with an open mind, they will get better. The more games people play, the better they become. While I'm sure it won't turn anyone into amazing mafia players overnight, I see no harm in a single theme that will help the channel improve, even if only by a little bit. If people want to bitch about it; that's fine, but it's their problem. Nobody is forcing them to join. If they want to complain, they should do it privately, and not in the channel. I guess that might just my own opinion, but any complaints about a theme should be in the theme's thread, or be done privately.

    was a little rushed so the last paragraph might be off, but everything else should be good!
     
  34. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I think this argument is highly flawed. Each game have its own game length, and people will choose to play the one that fits the time they have available at the moment. If a game lasts for way longer than the usual/expected, then that is a issue.
    Basically, if you only have 10 minutes left to play something, what would you choose: a Pokemon battle or a game of Civilization?

    For the other arguments, I don't think there's anything really wrong, but I'd like to reiterate something that has to be considered about this theme: Just because it works in an IRL setting, doesn't mean it will work exactly the same way in PO's Mafia Channel enviroment. There are several differences between both settings, and possibly some of them will make players unable to play this theme in PO the same way it's played IRL.
     
  35. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    I'm unsure where my analogy is flawed. I realize it is an imperfect analogy, but I was referring to the fact that LoL takes a long time to play. Yet somehow people are still playing it (and making lots of money from it, but that's a moot point). Rejecting this based on the fact that it takes too long to play is an invalid argument. It all boils down to whether or not you have enough time to play. If so, join, if not, don't join. That is a personal choice for the player; if they feel it takes too long to play, then they should consider playing pokemon instead of joining the current mafia game. I don't see how timing being an issue should be taken into account when determing the accept/reject criteria. IMO, it should be more about balance and flavor and the overall content of the theme, not whether or not certain individuals or groups like a theme or not. Change is not a bad thing, and giving this theme a rejection because it differs from each theme that has a leader is unfair.

    What several differences are you referring to, aside from the obvious ones (online vs in person etc.)? I mean, while our version may be imperfect, that doesn't mean we should not try. Obviously, I, and I am sure others, feel that this will be very different then IRL or even forum based. That does not mean that this theme is automatically set up for failure. I have faith that the mafia community, with enough time, accept this theme for what it is. A theme based on actual scumhunting instead of PR rushes. But then again, I've met plenty of people who dislike space invaders of all themes, so who knows? But I really do think we should at least give it a chance.

    Even if we feel it may not work, the channel won't like it, games are too long, that doesn't mean we should not at least attempt to make it work. If there's a problem we can come back and re-evaluate whether or not this theme is working. If there are no mechanical issues then I do not see why this theme should be rejected, although I am unaware of any such objective guideline that says what themes are accepted and what themes are rejected.
     
  36. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    Hm, it seems that I have allowed a certain charismatic character to take control of the daytime dynamic...interesting. One comment on that though:
    Well, this is the theme's thread, so you can hardly fault anyone for "bitching" if they're doing it here. Keep up the criticism, guys!

    Anyway, onto the people who want a decline:

    I agree with this point entirely, especially with (as of the current setup) at max 3 guys who can use it. Just give me a number I guess.

    Well, I still fail to see a refutation to my original response to this: balance is an issue that can be fixed with a couple tweaks to "roles1". If I put 1 mafia in the 5-man setup and never put in another, the town will win every game except maybe the really small ones. If we're going to talk about balance in a theme as simple as this one that's more a discussion that we should bring up over some tests (maybe over the upcoming holiday?) than just throw out there. It's a valid point that we may have to use special considerations, but there's a time and a place.
    Even if it "doesn't...work exactly the same way," that still isn't an argument against the theme, really, just against using the same setup as you would irl or in irc or on a forum.

    Well, as for game length as a larger issue: sure, maybe it will take a bit longer than games of comparable sizes of other themes, but it'll be awesome! I know it's a bit much to say that one little theme is going to go changing everything, but if you want a game full of skill once in a while where people really read each other's posts, think less like robots, and maybe get to know each other a bit better, this is the way to go. If people don't want to play a longer game they won't join, but for those who want the perks above, I hope that this will provide an option they haven't been getting.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2012
  37. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I felt that this would be a good thing to have at this moment in time. I have stayed out of this because there was to much to read. I read the code though and it does seem interesting. I think this would be a good teaching tool for new players. Start them out with this theme and then go on to default. That would be a good transition.

    Personally, I do enjoy being a villager sometimes. I actually feel I have to pay more attention because if I vote for the wrong person then I am out of luck and mess up the chance for the village to win.

    I am going to Approve [5] because i feel this will really add to the channel more so than some of the other themes.

    Approves: 5
    Rejects/Declines: 2

    This should allow the theme to be tested if there was any question about it before.
     
  38. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Just to make thing clear, I'm not exactly against this theme. When I talk about possibles IRL-Server differences, it's more of a case of me being worried that everything you guys hope this theme will accomplish couldn't work because of the different enviroment and script limitations. I'm not saying the theme should be rejected because of this, I'm pointing to possible flaws that will need to be verified by playing (and by that, I don't mean only those limited PO2 tests), but if those flaws happen to exist, I don't think any tweak on roles1 will be enough to fix them.

    Again, I was not using that argument to say the theme should be rejected. I was pointing to that specific argument (at least in the way it was made) being misleading in the current discussion. You made it sound as if "Time for game sessions is completely irrelevant because some games are popular regardless of the time needed", but that doesn't fit in this discussion's context. When some people said "Players don't want a theme taking that long", they didn't mean "games that take too long are bad". They meant "Players play this game expecting it to take X minutes, but if it will take more time than they are willing to spend they will ignore/leave the theme". This is not a matter of "having the choice or not", it's more about inconvenience, such as people who can't play one specific theme because it will take more time than usual or having to wait even more for the next game.
    I don't even disagree a theme shouldn't be accepted or rejected based on the time it takes to play it, but different from what you said, there's a theme currently disabled because it takes too much time (and players actually complained about that), so this is not an issue that can be solved by saying "LoL is popular and takes more time".
     
  39. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Here are my concerns:

    1. You listed on average, 1 person dies each minute... There needs to be at least 15 deaths to end a game at capacity. That's at least 15 minutes for a single game. If you die night 1, you could take a shower and come back to the same game being played. What about a scenario with 3 villagers vs 1 mafia? Standby ticks for 60 seconds. Lynching ticks for 30 seconds (nv@4), Night ticks for 30 seconds (1 villager dies), Standby ticks for 60 seconds, Lynch ticks for ~30 seconds. That took 3 minutes and 30 seconds to get rid of 2 people, above your estimate of 1 minute per person.

    2. Villager is boring. I wouldn't wish being a village for 15 minutes on anyone. There's nothing you can do to prove you are a villager, so all it turns into is a "oh, I don't like you" or "you killed me last game" and you essentially alienate players, new or old, because every single person is a potential rand... and we all know rands aren't really "random."

    3. Its like Space Invaders, except without the day-killing or self-protecting some people already groan at Space Invaders being started because its just a huge rand-fest. You say something. Killed. Don't say anything. Killed. Swearing your undying loyalty and transferring your entire bank account to the laser. Lynched.
     
  40. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    I am super busy but I will just respond to fuzzysqurl's concerns.

    1. I fail to see how you could take a shower in 15 minutes is relevant to the current discussion. With your scenario, you took a situation that happens once per game. At any other stage in the game there will be one death per minute. I will amend my statement to say that one person dies per minute, assuming the village lynches someone (which they should every time except in the scenario you brought up.) That situation also isn't possible in a setup with an odd amount of players (might be even too busy to count it out).

    2. Unfortunately this is incorrect, based on the generalization that villagers are boring in all other themes, therefore it must be boring in this theme. There's nothing you can do.. so you have to argue about who you believe is mafia. In one of my tl;dr I write about those ways. Anybody who feels alienated by a game of mafia probably needs to get off the computer, step outside, and reevaluate why they feel hurt over a simple game over the internet. It shouldn't turn into a game based on personal attacks, but it might in the beginning. As people play more, they will learn ways to find mafia. I mean, you can sit their doing nothing as if you don't make an effort you will probably be bored to death. If you try and talk to find mafia, it is a much more engaging experience then hanging around doing nothing.

    3. If this is how you play space invaders you are doing it wrong. There are plenty of ways to prove you are a bunker. If you truly believe that all you are doing is randing, then you have the wrong idea of how to play! You find mafia by discussion. If you get everyone to talk there are ways to find mafia, just read some forum NOC games. If people groan because they think it's boring, it's because they make it boring. Next time you get villager, try talking a lot. Argue with people. See what happens. You may not be right all the time, but I really do believe it is a lot more fun that not saying anything or spamming the chat with worthless words. Also you point out the exact difference between this and space invaders. SI has a central controlling figure that crushes any discussion; this theme will hopefully force players to think on their feet to find mafia.

    k i might make no sense since i wrote this super fast but i hope you get what i mean