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Discussion in 'Theme Development' started by Oh So Shoddy, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. Drapht

    Drapht Move on

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    Why is everyone trying to ruin default? it was fine how it was a year ago, then some people got it into their head that they should, nay were worthy, to change a classic theme that has been successful for years, online and IRL. Adding shit to mafia just because you can, will not leave your mark or whatever on mafia nor is it a good idea 90% of the time if you haven't discussed it and/or thought about it for a while to iron it out. Don't take this as insulting people, as I have also had stupid ideas about mafia that I put forth and had been shot down with the simplest logic that I had overlooked out of rashness/excitement/pride/whatever.

    Unless there's something actually wrong with default, don't add things for the sake of it, same principle for making themes and any other existing theme.
     
  2. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    Fool is an absolute terrible role that is probably even worse than conspirator. A fool's very existence harms the village way more than a conspirator, at least the conspirator can kill mafia and stuff. And it's super easy to win as... act super annoying and be really unhelpful (or selfvote!) and boom you die and win!

    I don't see the need to add more complex stuff; take the conspirator out and move on. Making it balanced shouldn't require overly-complex roles (add a mafia hooker, take out the samurai and you're done!). You pretty much have to add a hooker to keep it as default while having it balanced; even without the samurai, gathering PRs is way too easy, and any competent village should win 100% of the time with the inspector claiming.

    In that vein, I personally think the hooker is probably a stronger role than the inspector that should probably get protection over the inspector, but I guess that's me rambling on about irrelevant strategy.

    @Drapht: I'm just going to assume you aren't talking about flat out removing the conspirator.
     
  3. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    Default does NOT need more roles. Default does NOT need complex roles.

    I particularly agree with Drapht and Michu. If Conspirator is a role that can't be fixed in any manner, remove it. If Village is OP, just add more Mafias. Adding a Hooker to the Mafia side would prevent the defaultish inspector claim, perhaps if the Dons had an extra vote too...
     
  4. Vietpride

    Vietpride Member

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    I say remove the conspirator's kill, make the role only appear in the mid-late games, and adding more millers and mafia. I have seen where both Mafias killed their millers and the game was over quickly. If we are going to increase Dons' votes, then it must be at least between 1-2 or give it 2 and then increase the mayor's vote.
     
  5. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    I don't know if that's been said to everyone yet, so we're going to test some of those roles (don't worry, I don't think Fool will be included) and see what fits better to balance the games and for people to like the theme better too. Today, FCC and IC were added back. In this version, they gain a kill once their teammates die, and are able to win with their belonging Mafia faction as well as with the village. This won't take away the game-twisting nature of the modern Conspirator (which wasn't liked by many anyway), but instead add one more possibility for each of those roles, possibly giving the game variety without removing the simplicity air of it.

    That's what I thought at first. My opinion may change as I'm seeing the games go by though, but I need more time to see if it's not just bad luck from the other sides. Who knows, maybe after the tests I end up agreeing with Michu. I still hold this version isn't bad at all, though.
     
  6. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    Let me get this straight. You removed the Conspirator, then added in the French and Italian Conspirator, then as soon as a French Canadian mafia dies, lets say, then the French conspirator is able to kill? And after every FCM dies, the FCC can get an extra kill? So does that mean it can get like 3 kils?
     
  7. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    ... no

    FCC doesn't have a kill, but gets one after his team is dead.
     
  8. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    Oh yea, I know that, but it looks to me by the coding that conspirator gets like 3 different forms, which made me think that it gets 1 kill after every time a teammate dies, which means it could've killed 3 times, but now that I examine it better, it seems to me like it only kills once after its converted. What I don't get is why there are like "conspirator21" and "conspirator211" and stuff like that.
     
  9. Karp Karpity

    Karp Karpity Active Member

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    How about a godmother that can daykill or protect its partner the godfaTher? The godmother could daykill once, or protect its partner the godfather
     
  10. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    lol daykills

    also GreenWater, they are a way so that the kill conversion only reaches the player after their team is completely exterminated.
     
  11. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    /slay [FCM]
    With this, the FCC (or IC) can't get their kills. It's a big issue, in my opinion. It's not FCC's fault their partner must leave.
     
  12. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    I wish I could make this post longer, but I am using my phone.
    Anyway, what can be our approach to making the village less OP with games including the Samurai? It is an issue a few people have with the theme.
     
  13. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    Removing the Samurai would be a simple and lovely fix imo
     
  14. Drapht

    Drapht Move on

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    Or give a random mafia (maybe Don) extra votes as the vote stage is where mafia generally get "killed". This change is simple and elegant, not changing much and giving the mafia some advantage over the numbers of the village
     
  15. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    I do agree, the Don Role needs a little buff anyway, and extra votes might be the best way about it.
     
  16. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    I think that fixing the Werewolf issue we get the Village power issue fixed, too.
     
  17. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    I agree with getting rid of the Samurai.

    I don't agree with giving Dons extra votes. It just complicates the mafia side a little, and default is supposed to be easy. Besides, isn't the mafia a little more stronger because of the addition of the FCC's kill once their partner dies and their ability to provide their side extra votes?
     
  18. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    ^ not really, the FCC simply substitutes one of the Mafia spots. Also, I'll make it so slays also trigger onDeath - I thought that'd already been fixed.
     
  19. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    Has that been implemented yet to the mafia scripts?
    Also, Arsonist/Firefighter to replace the WW in big games? Threatens the Village and it offers a new way to attack, without being OP.
     
  20. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    Before adding a new idea like an arsonist/firefighter, you may want to explain what they do, for discussion purposes. Also, why not make more mafia? Maybe the lower priority mafia should get 1 extra member?
     
  21. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    Actually, FCC and IC were overcomplicating - nearly everyone in the channel agreed that they were. They've been removed and the tests resumed with a Hated Conspirator only appearing after 20 players. Now to balance the village...
     
  22. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    It might be the case that the Village's opponents are too weak, as opposed to the Village being too strong.
    And I've already talked about Arsonist/Firefighter.
     
  23. Drapht

    Drapht Move on

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    My suggestion wasn't an addition with the other suggestions, it was instead of them.
     
  24. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    At most games, FCM has one more member than IM (only on reeeally big ones they get 4 members each)
     
  25. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    I guess my ideas are not good if the next 4 people can find a way to get around my ideas. GUYS DONT LISTEN TO ME!!! lol.

    Here's another (bad) idea: Call the Inspector the police. Since Pretty Lady has been changed to Hooker, change the Inspector to Police. I'm only joking.
     
  26. Mavs>Heat

    Mavs>Heat Member

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    The main reason that this happens is because IM does kill faster than the FCM, and have a slight advantage.

    lol what the fuck is this

    If we are talking about balancing the village and making it less overpowered, one possible solution is to in those large games, eliminate the second PL and spy. Those extra Power Roles make detecting mafias much easier, as Spy now has around a .38 chance to detect a mafia, and PL would be able to stall out both mafias, assuming that WW and GF are dead.
    With smaller games (with no samurai, but with the GF, and anything smaller), one solution would be to simply nerf power roles. That would probably mean nerfing the Vigilante, to the point where it can kill every x amount of nights. I personally do not like this idea too much, but nerfing the vigilante would result in the mafia dying slower. It would be difficult to nerf the Inspector and the Spy, since the Spy already has only a 0.1 chance to get hax, and would render the spy useless. Another solution might be to allow mafias to kill the PL if they are being stalled by it, but does not affect the theme that greatly.
     
  27. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    Oh yeah, Bomb and Consp removed in favour of Villagers.
     
  28. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    I could be wrong but I don't think this is how it is supposed to work:

    (23:40:20) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:40:20) Current Roles: Bodyguard, French Canadian Mafia, Hooker, Inspector, Italian Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:40:20) Current Players: Dark_Proto.new, Fuzzysqurl, Goten, Honey-senpai, Kraziub, Rkar6, Scizorfan1991, Soarin, crashnburn.
    (23:40:20) Current Team: Bodyguard, Hooker, Inspector, Miller, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager
    (23:40:20) Time: Day 5
    (23:40:20) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :
    (23:40:20) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:40:28) Kraziub: so who to hit?
    (23:40:28) ±Game:Rkar6 voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:37) Fuzzysqurl: not sure if i want to follow
    (23:40:38) ±Game:Goten voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:38) Scizorfan1991: wait has anyone claimed yet
    (23:40:39) ±Game:crashnburn voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:39) ±Game:Honey-senpai voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:40) ±Game:Kraziub voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:42) ±Game:Dark_Proto.new voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:43) ±Game:Scizorfan1991 voted for Soarin!
    (23:40:47) Kraziub: I'll go ahead an claim PL
    (23:40:49) Fuzzysqurl: Honey-senpai, how many bad guys are left
    (23:40:50) crashnburn: i have claimed villy/milly
    (23:40:50) Rkar6: soarin is italian mafia
    (23:40:51) ***************************************************************************************
    (23:40:51) Times Up! :
    (23:40:51) ±Game: Soarin (Italian Mafia) was removed from the game!
    (23:40:51) Current Roles: Bodyguard, Hooker, Inspector, Italian Mafia, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager.
    (23:40:51) Current Players: Dark_Proto.new, Fuzzysqurl, Goten, Honey-senpai, Kraziub, Rkar6, Scizorfan1991, crashnburn.
    (23:40:51) Current Team: Bodyguard, Hooker, Inspector, Villager, Villager, Villager, Villager
    (23:40:51) Time: Night 6
    (23:40:51) Make your moves, you only have 30 seconds! :
    (23:40:51) ***************************************************************************************
     
  29. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    FCM millers show up as IM onLynch, and vice-versa. That's how they were a while ago, at least.
     
  30. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    That seems rather odd and rather useless.
     
  31. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    I guess it helps the actual mafias know that it was only a miller.
     
  32. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Then why not just have it lynch as a Miller? It only serves to confuse villagers then thinking it was a mafia. It can trip up players while serving no real benefit.


    Maybe I'm just picky.
     
  33. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I am pretty sure that is the point of it. I might be wrong though.
     
  34. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    If the point is to confuse villagers, then having each miller showing on list as the same mafia it reveal as would be more effective.
     
  35. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    Exactly, but the IM/FCM mashup is probably to help the Mafia know it was a miller, while still confusing the villagers somewhat. It doesn't change a lot in the game anyway.
     
  36. Hey Day

    Hey Day Argumentum ad ignorantium

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    Not to be a drag, but why have the default overhauls stopped?

    Seriously, it's pretty damn townsided.

    Town has a lot of power that can easily connect, the terrible "Follow the Inspector/Samurai" strategy that I feel should be discouraged in general, and the mafias have no power (no, Roleblock Immunity is NOT power). Hell, even the indies lack power, but they aren't as lacking as the mafia are.

    Pretty much what I want is a buff to the mafia, and possibly the indies, or a nerf to the town.

    EDIT: Also, while I'm thinking about it, it's pretty discouraging to draw Hooker at this point; you're pretty much Werewolf/Godfather bait, and you can't even distract Dons. It makes the Hooker itself pretty weak, and I feel the whole idea of "power is in roleblock immunity" should be moved away from.
     
  37. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    Good thing someone reminded me of this.

    What I'm going to say is that I've been thinking about what I said before - Samurai being a stupidly broken asset and Werewolf being an obvious filler in bigger games - and I think the remedy to these could be

    • a. Remove Samurai completely from the game;
    • b. Open a discussion and suggestion box for new (simple and default-ish) roles to substitute the WereWolf.
    • c. Remove the second capital from Werewolf because I'm a crying grammar freak.
    • d. Regarding the Mafia's apparent weakness, give it about a week without Samurai and see how the games flow.

    Also do not forget default is supposed to be basic and easy to learn, play and not overcomplicate things.
     
  38. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    most default games don't even reach amount of players for a samu to come in, unless it's a really busy weekend. and tbh it's a super fun role to get, so removing it would be I think having it be unrevealing would make things a lot harder for the villager.

    there's no problem with the ww being there, but it needs to be strengthened for larger games; idk if this is possible with the code yet, but a 1-time kill evade would be pretty helpful

    bebbz and I were discussing on the server the other day some changes that could be made, but it was really late at night and I forgot most of them. bebbz help
     
  39. Roild

    Roild Member

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    Not too tough. There aren't a lot of killing roles in default anyway. Just give each killer aside from WW a kill+convert (not able to do that for Samurai's daykill), and then he can essentially have "two" lives. (First one evading 100% and then being converted to second form, which doesn't evade.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  40. Kurapika

    Kurapika Born to be a Troll

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    I personally think that you should not center your attention about balancing village in default and think more about this question: "What do we want the default theme to teach new players?"
    As much as I hate Samurai and find it too OP (and boring ...) I still think it should not be totally removed, because it lets players be aware that there are actions that can be taken during the day too. I even think there should be a role that can expose during the day... (it is basic!)
    Since I love Werewolf and find it very weak, too, how about giving it the expose power? How about giving it a one-single-use poison/convert? (It might refrain Samurai/Inspector from claiming without fearing any danger, but it is probably a bit too complicated for default...)