Default

Discussion in 'Theme Development' started by Oh So Shoddy, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    From the reactions in this topic, having the role win with any side other than WW but have no role does not work, as all non-village teams know their teammates, and thus it would just be another Villager role, or just be completely useless.

    Additionally, almost everyone has stated that the Conspirator in its current form is overpowered, so bumping it up the spawn list does not help.

    So I bolded the two options that should be skipped, should this suggestion go through.

    As for the recharge, I'd say it would probably be better being 1 kill every 3 nights, but that's just me.

    Otherwise, I think this could work.
     
  2. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    I agree that simply moving the role in the spawn list is not the best solution, but I suggested it anyway so the change could be gradual. In this case, it could solve at least the issue of the number of deaths in small games.
    But that's not the most important step, so skipping it wouldn't be a problem.
     
  3. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    283
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    I disagree with whoever said that the FCM needs something more to make up for their lower priority; there are situations where having lower priority is helpful (such as 3 players, being IM, FCM, and Mayor/Vigi/Samurai). In that situation (and there are other possibilities) the IM would never be able to win if they decide to kill and the other players play rationally. FCM does not need a buff; they are fine the way they are since they do get their Don a significant amount of players before the IM does.

    About the Conspirator: I think the first action that should be taken is to make it appear later. This would be the quickest and simplest to do (which is important, considering how slow people are with fixing/updating things) and could temporarily make the Conspirator less OP. It currently appears before the IM/FCM split which I believe is way too early; I remember jalmont posted a log of a game where Conspirator allowed mafia to win extremely quickly in a 10-ish person game. Of course, this wouldn't completely fix it, but I think it should be done until a more definitive decision is made.

    Also, a point that I haven't really see brought up is why the IM Miller appears on the role list as FCM and the FCM Miller appears on the role list as IM. Does anyone know if this was intentional? If so, I'm interesting in the reasoning behind it. (this is especially noticeable when a Miller is lynched; it says a certain mafia died while the other disappears from the role list)
     
  4. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2011
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    59
    The PL has been test-renamed to the Hooker.
     
  5. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    I still like the stalking conspirator bomb idea.

    And I don't know about the rename. On one hand, it was stupid for people to censor Hooker in the first place; on the other, Pretty Lady has been ingrained into our minds already and it would be a disorienting change. Maybe it's because I don't really like the word hooker in the first place. Courtesan has such a nice ring to it.
     
  6. Hey Day

    Hey Day Argumentum ad ignorantium

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    So, something recently came to my attention when I was watching a game (which was ironically not default): Kingmaker scenarios. These come up way more often than they should.

    For those that don't know what a Kingmaker scenario is, it goes like this. You have one player who cannot win no matter what he does. However, there are also two other players of differing factions remaining. This one player who is going to lose effectively chooses who wins. The most classic example in default is of course FCM vs. IM vs. Villager, since villager either chooses to hammer one of the mafs and let the other win, villager gets himself lynched and IM wins, or he chooses not to hammer and IM wins.

    Here is a list of all FCM vs. IM vs. Town Player scenarios, although there are 3 non-Kingmaker scenarios:

    FCM vs. IM vs. Millager/Spy/Inspector: Classic example. If Villager votes with IM, IM wins. If Villager votes with FCM, FCM wins. If Villager doesn't vote, IM wins from priority. If Villager gets himself lynched, IM still wins from priority.

    FCM vs. IM vs. BG: Same voting situation as above except for the last part. If BG doesn't vote, he can protect FCM for an FCM win.

    FCM vs. IM vs. Hooker: Same as villager, but if Hooker doesn't vote, she can choose to distract IM for an FCM win. Obviously same as regular villager if remaining IM is Don.

    FCM vs. IM vs. Vigilante: Not Kingmaker. All 3 factions have a chance of winning in this case.

    FCM vs. IM vs. Mayor: Not Kingmaker. IM loses unless he joint kills the Mayor with FCM.

    FCM vs. IM vs. Samurai: Not Kingmaker. Same situation as Mayor.

    I'm not sure if this can be fixed, but it would be really cool if it could, because to be honest, Kingmaker situations really do ruin the game for those on the receiving end and brings who wins down to a decision by one person who's already lost. If this could actually be fixed somehow, I'd be really happy.
     
  7. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    The only way to prevent a Kingmaker situation is to restrict the theme to 2 sides.
    Kingmaker is not something from Mafia or from some themes: it's a situation that can happen to any kind of game that features 3 or more sides that need to take each other down (games where the goal is not to eliminate the other teams can avoid those situations, but this is not the case for Mafia).
     
  8. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    53
    PO Trainer Name:
    Fegelein
    The Bomb has returned to default at 26 players.
     
  9. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kingmaker is bullshit but I always choose the player who has done more work to win. People who will choose, say, WARIO OVER MK BULLSHIT, give me OCD fits.
     
  10. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2011
    Messages:
    530
    Likes Received:
    0
    OMG
    Awww.

    I always thought the bomb was way better implemented than the conspirator ever was.

    It would be cool if it was a miller of sorts too, and wouldn't know it was a bomb until boom, takes a mafia with him.
     
  11. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    0
    Test-renamed... when will this test end?

    Is it just me who preferred Pretty Lady much more than Hooker?
     
  12. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    People still call it PL. And Hooker is harder to abbreviate... PL is short and sweet.
    I'd vote for change back to PL
     
  13. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Zzyzx Road
    Conspirator

    As it has been discussed both here and many times in the server, the current Conspirator design seems to mess up many games. In addition to that, the extra kill makes the games quicker and much more random than before. Lastly, playing as Conspirator is much less challenging than any other role.

    Adding Bomb back, while making Conspirator need to be more careful, wasn't enough. People just don't quit killing because of Bomb (I do when I'm a third party, but it's apparently just me).

    I've called some people that were online to discuss possible changes to the role, whether to remove it completely, add other things into the theme, etc. Some of the suggestions that've been brought up were shot down due to overcomplication or unbalancement of the game in general. The rest of them were all good, and each of them has its supporters:

    [|quote=Project Mafia users|]

    1. Have French Canadian and Italian Conspirators be back
    They were taken off because late games would drag on too long if these were kept alive after their Mafia, but kept into the code. Two solutions were suggested:
    1.1. Each Conspirator, in addition to winning with their belonging faction, would be able to win with the village, keeping the essence of the "modern" Conspirator but fixing the extra kill issue, as well as making the game challenging for those roles. They would not have their own kill, nor gain one upon the wiping of their Mafia partners.
    1.2. They become actual Mafia killers when their team is wiped. If all (Italian or French Canadian) Mafia die, a living Conspirator would become a Mafioso of their respective faction, possibly nerfed, but maybe just a normal one. They would naturally gain a kill so they'll be able to win alone.

    2. Full removal of the Conspirator role.
    Some people just don't enjoy it at all, and would rather have his spot taken by another Villager, and perhaps lately another role.

    3. The Conspirator still wins with everyone, but doesn't get a kill, and instead a better vote capacity.
    This is plausible, but does not help the ease with which a Conspirator wins.

    4. The Conspirator wins with both Mafia but only the Mafia, in addition to being hated.
    A Hated role is one that is lynched whenever a single vote is cast against them.

    5. The Conspirator shifts places with a Village Hated.
    Much like the above, but he would have only one side, the Town, to win with. This would be an useful connector and would probably make the village overpowered, but this can be helped if another suggestion I'll post here later is embraced.

    6. The Conspirator shifts places with a Fool.
    This would probably balance the village-mafia issue out, as lynches would have to be much more careful. Mafia would also look for claiming Fool late-game in order to avoid votes. This, however, leads to random one-round games.

    7. Add an Arsonist - Firefighter scheme.
    The Arsonist would be a third-party role, possibly replacing the underpowered Werewolf, that has a kill that can't be saved by the Bodyguard. The Firefighter would save the targeted person instead, but would only save that person and not work as a common Bodyguard. This is a good solution, however it may be overkill when Default is supposed to be the simplest theme. The bright side is that Guard-piercing is a common feature in many themes, and would get newer players used to those; as well as making the village weaker and giving the other roles a better shot at winning.

    [|/quote|]

    If you have more suggestions, please mention them and what would be the pros and cons. I'd also like opinions on what are your favourite solutions and what could be changed in the suggestions already given.

    These suggestions have been given and polished by Mr.Anonymous, kyucumber, Fegelein, Kurapika, Rosina, Sky Sentinel, Mavs>Heat, MeowMix and others, including myself.

    Removed quotation tags for further quoting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  14. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    1
    The conspirator role, is and has always been, a backstabbing role. It throws a wrench in the plans of the people involved. It's a role with freedom of choice, with multiple paths it can go down, instead of being bogged down to one singular path as many roles are.

    How does it do this?

    Why on earth is this a bad thing? Also default games are actually running in similar time to themes of similar playercounts.

    Some people don't like the PL. Some people don't enjoy having 5 different distracts in one turn in a game of FF. The majority of players are fine with it, and have been fine with it.

    I don't understand why you think that removing the kill will suddenly make the game "more challenging" for them.

    And this ends up being potentially gamebreaking unless you label them to be revealed as "FCC" or "ICC" to the Inspector. Otherwise, every single person that the PL and Inspector have cleaned is going to be a potential target again.

    Some people don't like the PL. Some people don't enjoy having 5 different distracts in one turn in a game of FF. The majority of players are fine with it, and have been fine with it.

    A mayor, I think, ends up being far more gamebreaking near the end of the game than a kill.

    This would balance out to be intensely in the mafia's favor

    Like you said, overpowered as hell for the Village. How would this even work?

    Yep. One round games ahoy.

    I honestly feel that this is just an adaption of a poison/safeguard method into default.
     
  15. kyucumber

    kyucumber DNA Pin FTW

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like the idea of the Arsonist and the Firefighter, personally I would like to see someone that can kill crucial Power Roles to the village and others can't just pull some sucky BG me because I am the inspector and not pay for any consequences. This would make the whole game more susceptible to a quick change, and would prevent people from claiming in larger games. I believe that this would make the Spy & Vigilante combination more important than, say, Inspector and Bodyguard, because they are able to connect undercover through PMs and kill spamming. IF we were to put the Arsonist and the Firefighter into default, it would be after role 20 where the vigilante pops up.

    Though, i wouldn't be opposed to the idea of taking away the Conspirator's kill and giving it a larger vote amount. Perhaps you could make it 4 to be better than the mayor but have a voteshield of +2 or 3 so that it can be easily eliminated during the voting phase, which would make them not want to start a vote for fear of being countered and make them want to stay more low key. With the higher vote, they would make the decision in a somewhat tie between two players that do not include the Conspirator its self, but they could not defend themselves if it was between them and someone else.

    Summary

    -Arsonist and Firefighter is a good idea in my opinion and take out the conspirator

    -Take away the Conspirators kill and give it a larger vote (larger than a mayor's) and then give them a voteshield against them to make it not too OP
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2013
  16. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    The whole point is that the role itself is unbalanced as it punishes the mafia or the village for good play due to its ability to randomly kill whoever they want. This isn't a case of people not liking the role, it's a case of a role that has a lot of power over the game even though it's supposed to be a "harmless" neutral.
     
  17. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    *grits teeth* no we're not putting a kefka, or a fucking poisoner, in default
     
  18. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Zzyzx Road
    I can read this as easy win role, basically. He can also pick the troll path and kill everyone he gain trust on. And honestly, surviving when you have everyone's trust - or fuck-offs - is not a big deal.

    see trolling comment above; the kill also fastens up the game - even if not more than other themes, default should indeed be the simpler theme.

    the bad part is much more random too. People need to think less and rely on the luck of Conspirator hitting their opponents.

    And people still change themes to make people enjoy them! So absurd, huh?

    A bit more, if anything. But my problem is with his winning with everyone.

    Good idea. We should consider this.

    repeat

    Hmmm, good point.

    Isn't village already strong with Samurai?

    I'm going to promote a talk about Samurai's stance that'd sort this out hopefully.

    Safeguard stops Inspections and Distractions, though. It can be played around without further harming of the village.

    Edit, @TheSexiOne: It won't work like poison. More like Kefka though, but it will have a specific BG.
     
  19. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    988
    Likes Received:
    3
    ^this, please
     
  20. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    1
    Then tell me why WW isn't IMBA? Because it's the same thing, regarding kills. WW can kill whomever they want. That's not the point.

    You guys keep saying it's an easy win role. But it's really not. Try playing a Conspirator and surviving to the end to win. It's hard. Sometimes the mafia wants to get rid of you before you can harm them, sometimes the village wants to oust the conspirator. Gaining people's trust as a conspirator is hard to begin with.

    Default was getting stagnant. Everyone at the time acknowledged that.

    You need to split up your two issues and focus on one of them for me, instead of trying to blend your arguments to work together. You're saying two things
    1) It's too easy to win if you win with all sides
    2) The kill is random and ruins games.

    I addressed the "ease" of winning as conspirator above. Not many people trust a conspirator.

    Secondly, addressing the random kill part, if the vigilante does not get connected with PRs, he's just as much of a conspirator in the killing sense. Same with the WW. And the Godfather.
    It's not a bad thing. Risks happen in games. Without the conspirator, Default ends up being: Here's an inspector claim, now Inspector goes to find the mafia while the mafia kills the villagers and possibly each other. The conspirator adds a kill to differentiate the sides a bit. Especially near endgame, the conspirator becomes the deciding vote on whether he wants the village to win or the mafia to win. It gives both sides in mafia a chance to win.


    Hmmm a kill that can go through regular bodyguards but can only be blocked by a special bodyguard that only protects that kind of kill? Sounds kindaaaaaaaa like poison/safeguard.
     
  21. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Zzyzx Road
    The fact is not that random kills don't occur: it's that the Werewolf and Godfather's are more than enough; you're saying as though one more kill didn't matter in the end. The other two concerns I was going to mention here go even further in the changing of default - Samurai makes the village too strong and the Werewolf is underpowered. These things should be taken separately, and not as an example of why the Conspirator is no worse than others.
     
  22. Serpentine

    Serpentine Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2011
    Messages:
    156
    Likes Received:
    1
    In smaller games, ie 13-20something, there are only the FCM, IM and Conspirator. 90% of default games are in that range of players. We do not have WW and GF games often, at all. Yes, the WW is underpowered in higher games. I will give you that.

    I'm not saying that the one kill doesn't matter. I'm saying quite the opposite infact: It's quite important IMO. It's not /just/ a random kill. It's potentially a backstab, potentially a mafia kill. It's a flexible role that can potentially decide the balance between village and mafia.
     
  23. Hey Day

    Hey Day Argumentum ad ignorantium

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2012
    Messages:
    138
    Likes Received:
    0
    My personal opinion? Just make it a regular Survivor like on Mafiascum: no kill, wins if they survive until any faction meets their win condition.
     
  24. ostrich

    ostrich New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    ostrich
    I really enjoy the 1.2 idea for the Conspirator.

    1.2. They become actual Mafia killers when their team is wiped. If all (Italian or French Canadian) Mafia die, a living Conspirator would become a Mafioso of their respective faction, possibly nerfed, but maybe just a normal one. They would naturally gain a kill so they'll be able to win alone.


    I just feel like this will add a cooler dynamic to the role of Conspirator. For instance, as stated above, if the mafia teammates are eliminated, the now "empowered" Conspirator can choose to use his newly gained kill to wipe out opposing Mafia, the Villagers, or both in an attempt to win for his team. It would give the user the ability to choose if they want to stay true to their teammates and take the risk of trying to win alone, or come clean and help the Villagers win.

    This idea stays true to the original concept of the Conspirator, with the addition of knowing one's Mafia teammates (eliminating the chance of accidentally killing Mafia when one wishes to in fact win with them). In addition, this will lessen the kill count each night, eliminating the idea that the games are finishing too quickly.

    If this is implemented however, I'm not sure if they user should be inspected as "Villager" or "FCC/IC". There are pros and cons to being revealed as both, unfortunately. The Inspector will most likely lead a rand on the "FCC/IC" reveal, and if they are inspected as "Villager" then when their new kill ability is activated, all Villagers become suspects again. I am torn.

    I think I explained my ideas clearly enough, if not, just ask me to explain something further.
     
  25. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2012
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    106
    (20:03:14) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:03:14) Times Up! :
    (20:03:14) The Roles have been Decided! :
    (20:03:14) ±Game: You are a Inspector!
    (20:03:14) ±Game: Type /Inspect [name] to find his/her identity!
    (20:03:14) Current Roles: Bodyguard, Inspector, Mafia, Mafia, Mafia, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager, Villager, WereWolf.
    (20:03:14) Current Players: Alula the Rose, Hellfire Bowsa, Kikkoman, Li Q. Assir, NightmareSlash, Odin, Rehx, ScorchedSwords, YuuchyHongroy, jalmontafk.
    (20:03:14) Current Team: Bodyguard, Inspector, Miller, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager
    (20:03:14) Time: Night
    (20:03:14) Make your moves, you only have 30 seconds! :
    (20:03:14) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:03:14) Kikkoman: ooo yeeeeah
    (20:03:14) Alula the Rose: XD
    (20:03:18) NightmareSlash: Villlllllly
    (20:03:19) Hellfire Bowsa: Villy? Really?
    (20:03:21) NightmareSlash: Ugh.
    (20:03:21) ScorchedSwords: awooo
    (20:03:22) ScorchedSwords: WW here
    (20:03:22) NightmareSlash: gtg.
    (20:03:25) Kikkoman: villy
    (20:03:25) Hellfire Bowsa: Btw, keep in mind we have a Miller.
    (20:03:25) ScorchedSwords: BG on me
    (20:03:25) NightmareSlash: li q slay me
    (20:03:26) ScorchedSwords: prs pm
    (20:03:26) jalmontafk: im inspect
    (20:03:29) ScorchedSwords: etc
    (20:03:29) ±Game: You have chosen to inspect ScorchedSwords!
    (20:03:29) Li Q. Assir: BGhere, prs pm
    (20:03:33) t3 the third: >jalmontafk
    (20:03:34) jalmontafk: .btw
    (20:03:35) t3 the third: >plays
    (20:03:35) NightmareSlash: li q slay me i got to go
    (20:03:36) t3 the third: :v
    (20:03:36) ±Kill: NightmareSlash (Villager) was slain by Li Q. Assir!
    (20:03:40) t3 the third: hi jalmont :o
    (20:03:46) jalmontafk: ^_^
    (20:03:46) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:03:46) Times Up! :
    (20:03:46) ±Kill: Hellfire Bowsa (Miller) died!
    (20:03:46) ±Kill: Odin (Bodyguard) died!
    (20:03:46) ±Info: ScorchedSwords is the WereWolf!!
    (20:03:46) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:03:46) Current Roles: Inspector, Mafia, Mafia, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager, WereWolf.
    (20:03:46) Current Players: Alula the Rose, Kikkoman, Li Q. Assir, Rehx, ScorchedSwords, YuuchyHongroy, jalmontafk.
    (20:03:46) Current Team: Inspector, Pretty Lady, Villager
    (20:03:46) Time: Day
    (20:03:46) You have 30 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :
    (20:03:47) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:03:51) ScorchedSwords: awooo
    (20:03:55) jalmontafk: we should probably
    (20:03:55) ScorchedSwords: got BG
    (20:03:57) YuuchyHongroy: Oh dang.
    (20:03:58) Alula the Rose: BG down
    (20:03:59) Alula the Rose: D:
    (20:04:02) jalmontafk: rand scorchedswords
    (20:04:04) ScorchedSwords: ^
    (20:04:05) jalmontafk: for claiming ww
    (20:04:07) ScorchedSwords: as always
    (20:04:14) jalmontafk: we are actaully randing ScorchedSwords
    (20:04:16) Alula the Rose: why would someone rationally claim WW
    (20:04:18) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:04:18) Current Roles: Inspector, Mafia, Mafia, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager, WereWolf.
    (20:04:18) Current Players: Alula the Rose, Kikkoman, Li Q. Assir, Rehx, ScorchedSwords, YuuchyHongroy, jalmontafk.
    (20:04:18) Current Team: Inspector, Pretty Lady, Villager
    (20:04:18) Time: Day
    (20:04:18) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :
    (20:04:18) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:04:18) jalmontafk: don't get confused
    (20:04:22) Alula the Rose: i think it is a joke
    (20:04:22) ±Game:jalmontafk voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:25) jalmontafk: nope it isn't
    (20:04:27) ±Game:ScorchedSwords voted for jalmontafk!
    (20:04:29) ScorchedSwords: ...
    (20:04:30) jalmontafk: i inspected him
    (20:04:31) ±Game:YuuchyHongroy voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:32) ±Game:Alula the Rose voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:33) jalmontafk: vote him
    (20:04:37) ±Game:Kikkoman voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:40) Kikkoman: ...
    (20:04:41) ScorchedSwords: ;-;
    (20:04:43) ±Game:Li Q. Assir voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:44) Kikkoman: i think we're making a mistake
    (20:04:48) ScorchedSwords: nah
    (20:04:50) jalmontafk: you'd be wrong
    (20:04:51) Kikkoman: he always says he's ww
    (20:04:52) ************************************************** *************************************
    (20:04:52) Times Up! :
    (20:04:52) ±Game: ScorchedSwords (WereWolf) was removed from the game!
    (20:04:52) ±Game: The Mafia (YuuchyHongroy, Kikkoman and Alula the Rose) wins!
    (20:04:52) ±Game: The Good people (jalmontafk, Li Q. Assir and Rehx) lose!
    (20:04:52) ************************************************** *************************************

    How is something like this good at all? This game shows the difference between the conspirator and the werewolf, or even an unconnected vigilante. There are better ways to balance default than a conspirator.

    I'll respond thoroughly later.
     
  26. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2012
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    2
    PO Trainer Name:
    Zzyzx Road
    ^my point. Thanks for colored logs
     
  27. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    If the WW is underpowered in larger games (30+), have you considered having a second Werewolf, that shares their kill?

    As for the conspirator, I still feel as if it is an unsalvageable role. Having a Mafia-sided conspirator (FCC / IC) be shown as such on inspection prior to their death leads the to be easily beaten once they have gained their kill. Likewise, has as already been mentioned, having them be inspected as a villager casts suspicion on all cleaned villagers, resulting in the game being balanced in the conspirator's favour.

    Unless someone can suggest a very good solution to this problem, I recommend the removal of the role completely.

    With regards to adding more new roles to the default theme - we're trying to keep it as default as possible, not make it more complex. That's part of the reason the conspirator needs to go (imo).
     
  28. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2010
    Messages:
    3,205
    Likes Received:
    531
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hanako
    I honestly cannot understand how Conspirator is still in Default :x. I've looked through this thread, and maybe I've missed someone, but there's not a single person outside of Serpentine who is defending its current incarnation. It could have at least been removed or one of the many ideas in this thread been tested for a few games, but outside of the adding the Bomb (which has proved to do almost nothing it seems), nothing has been changed about it. I vote it gets removed, at least until a way to salvage it comes about, FCC and IC maybe good ideas, but I'm not entirely sure if they're needed quite yet.

    Also I agree that Samurai is somewhat overpowered when its in play. The village has basically a free way to link every PR up and unless the mafia somehow gets lucky or plays really smart, then Village can usually get a pretty easy win :x
     
  29. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    A point we should discuss is that Mafia cannot easily link with Mafia, so that specific argument doesn't really work.
     
  30. Oh So Shoddy

    Oh So Shoddy Devil's Advocate

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    0
    What are you talking about? Mafia knows their teammates... and they're not even allowed to kill each other in most games
     
  31. Elements

    Elements BOOMER SOONER Forum Moderator Server Staff Forum Moderator Server Staff

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,195
    Likes Received:
    48
    PO Trainer Name:
    Elements
    Are you talking about FCC and Italian mafia can't link with each other? I don't see why there needs to be any discussion since those are two separate mafia entities.
     
  32. ostrich

    ostrich New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    ostrich
    I am just rattling off ideas here, but do you think a Conspirator (same as the current one we have) could be implemented with a kill on the even nights and a self protect on the odd nights? Maybe that's getting too complicated; but I am trying to think of a way to lessen the amount of kills each night, while also increasing the survivability of the Conspirator. Do you think this idea could be tested or is it further complicating the already complicated 'Default'.

    If you all believe that is too complicated, then I honestly do not see another way to rectify the current Conspirator's role and will then agree to have it removed completely.
     
  33. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    53
    PO Trainer Name:
    Fegelein
    Replying on my phone at half five in the morning, but hear me out.
    The Arsonist would not work like any typical poisoner. The count for the poison would be -1, the priority number would be very high, so it would have the effect of a kill that is always last, but it can go through BG. The Firefighter's safeguard would not interfere with any distracts or inspects either. It's to offer the bad guys an alternative route to rid of Insp/Sam
     
  34. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    498
    Likes Received:
    0
    Darn, I had made a better post, but my shitty internet connection didn't allow me to post it, so be happy with this one :'([/HIDE]

    Yes, it did. It empowered the village even more. In an ideal situation, the PRs are easily connected, which means the Vigilante won't kill the Bomb, so, for sure, the Mafias/GF/WW will do it.

    ...Wait weren't we talking about the Conspirator? *!* Make the Conspirator a bomb role and remove the current Bomb role. This way, the Conspbomb can help whoever they want, and village won't be extremely powerful, without the conspirator being a "broken" role, because the mafias won't necessarely have to kill one more PR and get decimated when they do it.

    Right. But the mafias get more members and the Dons and there must be a Godfather for there to be a Samurai. So, if village is still OP (hmmm yes, it is OP), make the WW to appear earlier, replacing one of the Villagers.

    EDIT: I disagree with the Arsonist and Firething idea. This way default won't... be default!
     
  35. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2012
    Messages:
    1,445
    Likes Received:
    1,059
    PO Trainer Name:
    MeowMix
    arsonist / firefighter makes things too clusterfucky for default

    even if we can't agree on anything else right now, I'm pretty sure nobody would object to having the consp removed entirely from "roles1" since it skews things to the point of unbalance in small games; in the same vein, it probably shouldn't appear in "roles2" until somewhere between 14-16 (could be even later just to be safe, but w/e). in larger games than that (20+) it's less of an issue since kills are flying around everywhere and there's a much higher chance of it being hit by a stray potshot.

    so yeah, if someone with default pastebin access could fix that while we all figure out what to actually do with the role, it would help immensely in the short term.
     
  36. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    Apologies, I meant Mafia and Consp *headdesk*
     
  37. ostrich

    ostrich New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2011
    Messages:
    26
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    ostrich
    I agree with the notion that the Arsenist and Firefighter would complicate "Default" far too much. Jury is still out on Conspirator, however. And to address the previous comment about Werewolf being underpowered, I have a few ideas that may work to balance the role a bit, but perhaps we should stick with Conspirator's fix for the moment.
     
  38. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Werewolf is only underpowered at big games, and that's because it's a role designed for small games. For larger games, Godfather is meant to replace Werewolf, so I see no point in discussing "how to make Werewolf balanced in large games" instead of simply removing at role that wasn't made for those games.

    This basically means that, no matter how well you play, nothing matters if you don't have the conspirator on your side. Mafia Staff is often saying that Mafia should be about skill (or as some say, "strategy"), but this statement clearly contradicts that, since Conspirator, as you said, make strategy impossible in this theme.

    IMO, the only way to keep Conspirator in the current form is by moving it up in the spawn lists. Considering default's setup, having 3 killers at 10 players games is totally detrimental to the theme.
    And even if Conspirator only appeared at larger games (20+ players), it would still be a role that goes against the concept of Mafia that we always hear the Mafia QC talk about, but at least those effects wouldn't be so game-breaking as it is now.
     
  39. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    1
    Boooo change the pretty lady back into a pretty lady boo! who agrees with me?
     
  40. A Moon Gust

    A Moon Gust dot

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2012
    Messages:
    140
    Likes Received:
    4
    PO Trainer Name:
    amg
    I think that the consp should play as a fool role or just shouldn't be allowed in the game. The Fool makes the game more competitive. Also, doesn't fool appear villager to inspectors meaning that mafia can't claim fool. Anyways with the fool being added, there will be mafia joints and maybe WW joints. Having different bad roles can make a game confusing. Fool can win by either a random lynch or jointing with a mafia, but also autowins if town wins. tbh, just removing consp as a whole will make mafia games better but some people like having the choice to do anything they want.
    Fool Jointing(If you don't know what it is):
    For example. there are 2 villagers, 2 mafias and 1 fool.
    Both the fool and mafia vote the fool totaling 3 votes which is the majority
    The fool gets voted out making him win but once he is voted out there is 2 mafia and 2 villagers making mafia win as well.