That's ridiculous, the entire lc community is asking for a dst/clamperl suspect but one person doesn't want one so that's how it goes? I understand that tier leaders have the final say, but you should at least consider how the rest of lc community feels! Look at the countless posts agreeing on a dst suspect, weavile, you yourself even agreed that dst should have a suspect. How do you prepare for clamperl? By running a munchlax on every team? Sp.Def chinchou is 2hko'd by hp grass and scarfchou is ohko'd by hp grass (on the switch ofc). Even though Clamperl isn't running eviolite people tend to forgot how bulky it actually is. It has base 85 def and a decent hp stat (35 or 40?), so when it is at -2 def after a ss, still not many pokemon can ohko it. EX (priority and munchlax): 92 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. -2 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 16-21 (76.19 - 100%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO (very slim chance and factor in the mind games of sp) 36 Atk Munchlax Body Slam vs. -2 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 19-24 (90.47 - 114.28%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO That's it, the only two pokemon in the entire meta that can ohko clamperl after it sets up. And looking at the usage of both pokes: # 28 - Stunky (6.09 %), # 41 - Munchlax (4.49 %), they're not even used too often.
You are arguing using a factor that shouldn't be considered. Efficient doesn't mean broken especially when it comes to Mienfoo. You say blissey, cresselia, jynx, etc were all banned for being too good, but that isn't true at all. Blissey was banned due to being able to switch in on the majority of the tier (UU), Cresselia was on the boat, and Jynx had no counters in NU. Every broken pokemon has to have a reason other than it's to good. Staleness isn't a broken quality or a reason to ban which is the only reason you can actually come up it with other than the "it's too good" bullshit. You also have to accept the fact that teams are generic because they want to be competitive. People keep on thinking LC is just for fun, but the truth is LC is just as competitive as any other meta/tier. People run the best in any other tier/meta because it's pure common sense, why is LC excluded from this? Especially since you don't have any tiers in LC and it contains a lot of shit pokemon. @Pokemon United Get use to it lol Has happened most of the time and if it's like this, what's the point in having a community. Clamperl will tank a hit when it shell smashes, and in reality the only way you think it's not broken is if you run an Abra, Choice Scarfer, or a stunky in every team.
Guess I'll talk to him again! But that said a suspect is not a means of getting rid of what you think should go, a suspect is a means of determining for real if something is broken/unhealthy/whatever in the current meta. This subforum /really/ tends to treat them as the former. Anyway Pawniard has a stronger Sucker Punch than Stunky that takes it out. Sash Abra of course wins. Granted it's late game so one has to keep the sash in tact but that just requires some clever play, if you let your Clampearl checks die early game you're gonna lose to it later, same goes for Acrofloon, SD Drilbur, whatever sweeper you like. Munchlax 5.41631 94 Stunky 8.93114 155 Pawniard 10.7174 186 Also you have to consider that if you let Clampearl set up without it taking a single hit, you've played poorly against it, Ok if you get scarfed locked into Punishment on a Mankey or something and you have Scarf Missy too, you might want to switch so you can Tbolt it later (Rattled), but if your method is priority you should be doing as much damage as possible as it sets up, most Pokémon can muster 50-60% on Evioless Clam relatively easily. That or status it (paralysis mainly)
We do most of our suspects here Lol We would just be repeating information. I think we already established that it will take a hit, but that's not our problem, it's how you kill it after it smashes. I wouldn't call Missy / Abra a check since you can't switch into them at all so you are forced to revenge kill. To beat SD Drilbur / AcroFloon / etc there are other ways outside of beating it outside of revenge killing. Which is what sets it apart from everything else. Even though Wynaut is pretty good with any other sweeper, paired with Clamperl it's pretty much gg if you don't have a choice scarfer or Abra. Even without Wynaut there are a lot of situations where Clamperl is above 50%. Your opponent figured out you are Rest / Scald / Sleep talk / Heal Bell and sets up SS on you. Clamperl sets up on a Sleeping Pokemon. You have no priority so even if it took a hit you have no way of killing it. Stunky was burned while taking down Missy, and cannot KO with SP. There are probably a bunch more, but these are of the top of my head. Really it has no counters, only Revenge Killers and Priority. Priority needs to be buffed up by freeing Murkrow since it was on a lot of teams. It pretty much won't be broken after Murk is free. Oh yeh, Free Mienfoo and ban Yanma.
Ok I haven't been on PO in a long time... but... Why is DST Clamperl being suspected?? It should never get a free Shell Smash, and priority can easily kill -1 defenses Clamperl afterwards assuming you didn't give it a free SS. If you gave it a free Smash then you deserve the loss. Croagunk, Timburr, Stunky, Pawniard, Houndour, and Meowth all carry enough strong priority to deal with Clamperl. Abra and any fast scarfers can all easily revenge. If you give it free set up and let it sweep its your own damn fault, it's such an easy threat to deal with. "Clamperl gets easy set ups on RestTalk Chinchou", well don't use RestTalk if you can't deal with +2 Clamperl?? It's not that difficult, guys. If anything is broken right now it's Yanma it gets a free kill everytime you get a good switch in.
Croagunk doesn't carry strong enough priority, neither do timburr or meowth. The mind games of sp should be factored in, also many clamperl sets do carry sub to counter sp. And everyone keeps forgetting that the majority of the lc community is not asking for a clamperl suspect, but asking for a DST suspect.
Your forgetting that while at +2 it's going to have have less than 50% health and -1 defenses unless you find someone who's spamming stuff like scarf snovers ice shard. And I don't really like the idea of what a suspect discussion is going to do. People are already expressing opinions in here and they aren't convincing to me at all. You can post as many calcs as you want but clamperl needs very specific conditions to play out against people prepared for it to sweep. I'm not saying I can't be swayed to having a DST suspect, but right now it's a no from me.
Actually Mewoth can beat it 100% when its at -1, the problem is the sub set. The thing can OHKO everything and its really easy to set up when paired with Wynaut. shadow tag + charm + encore lets Clamperl smash so easily. The thing OHKOs almost everything. It has no checks when behind a sub and forces you to run two priority users just to break its sub. It isn't always going to have below 50% health which is what I think you are forgetting. When paired with Wynaut it becomes almost, if not completely unstoppable. All it needs to do is switch in on something like Bronzor or something locked into a fire or water move and smash. It isn't hard to set up. Imo DST needs to go suspect.
The only logical argument for not banning dst right now, would be that x and y come out in less than two weeks. And who knows, maybe gen6 can actually change how fucking broken dst is. I feel like the dst suspect should have happened a month ago, but at this point i guess it really doesn't matter. So yeah, I'm going to drop the ask for a suspect right now but if gen 6 comes along and clamperl is still steamrolling everything, a dst ban should happen. Also, when gen 6 does come along, will everything be unbanned and we'd pretty much just start all over? What's the plan for that?
This really shouldn't be in Gen 5 LC discussion thread but I'm going to quote weavile's post in a staff forum because I can see why you'd be interested and it's not super secret. Added onto that list is going to be any silly gen 6 pokemon.
Oh for God's sake stop going on about Mienfoo. It was banned, it was too good, get over it! There haven't been any significant changes in the tiering that would make it less overcentralising now. As for Yanma, I get where you're coming from but there are still a good number of checks to keep it in place, although you often have to sleep fodder something.
See what I did there? Of course if you pair a set up sweeper with Wynaut, it'll work much better, but does that make the sweeper broken? No it doesn't, otherwise Wobbuffet would be Ubers again, instead of being used only like 1% in OU. Fact is, without help from Wynaut, it's incredibly tough for Clamperl to smash safely, and have enough health left to survive one of the common priority attacks in LC. It's also revenged by fast revenge killers like Misdreavus, and then there's a couple of pokes that live a hit (Ferroseed, albeit it needs to be at full health, and Munchlax as well iirc). It sure is a great and powerful poke, but there's lots of ways to beat it.
Here are some priority move calculations Spoiler 156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 15-18 (71.42 - 85.71%) (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18) 92 Atk Stunky Sucker Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 12-15 (57.14 - 71.42%) (12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15) 236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 12-16 (57.14 - 76.19%) (12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16) 236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 9-13 (42.85 - 61.9%) (9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13) 196+ Atk Iron Fist Timburr Mach Punch vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 9-12 (42.85 - 57.14%) (9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12) 108 SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. -1 76 HP / 0 SpD Clamperl: 7-10 (33.33 - 47.61%) (7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10) 108 Atk Croagunk Fake Out vs. -1 76 HP / 0 Def Clamperl: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.57%) (5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6) Lol. Yeah, if Clamperl isn't in KO range of any of these moves by the time it's +2, it's your fault and you deserve to get swept. It's not that difficult to understand. Don't tell me "Sub counters Sucker" because then you cant deal with things like Chinchou, Frillish, Slowpoke, etc. I didn't even calculate for things that can 90% to death Clamperl with Rocks up like LO Croagunk, which is viable. Iron Fist Timburr is good too, capable of 2HKOing Foongus. Feint is great for revenging on Meowth. Get creative.
@Zoro I was actually hoping someone would say that. Pawniard is easily beaten by Gunk, Timburr and even Ponyta at +2. It isn't nearly that good. Clamperl has enough power to actually OHKO the entire meta game after rocks. It really isn't that hard to smash with it in my experience. While Wynaut is the easiest way to set it up, the more common and generally better way is to keep a solid team and late game the Clamperl. I honestly can't think of a single Pokémon in another tier that can OHKO every Pokémon in the tier after one set up move. It is stupid powerful. In most cases you will lose at least one Pokémon to Clamperl. In my experience running it, only on a very rare occasion did it not get a KO. I would imagine that if something forces as sac in all instances it would be considered broken. @Wobbyble your argument is that if it sets up u suck. And your calcs only show that Meowth is the only true check, which has already been established, even then it gets destroyed by the sub variant. Also I noticed that you aren't to familiar with the sub variant as it normally runs Surf + HP grass as ice beam/blizzard is only really needed for Foongus and Shroomish which aren't seen to much. You need to have two of these Pokémon on every team, and even then you aren't safe. We should probably let this die. With less than two weeks to gen 6 and the possibility of a new check to it, the time has pretty much passed for suspect discussions.
Im not gonna start a whole new thread for this but I do want to hear from you guys this. With gen 6 coming in a few days, I want to hear your final thoughts on 5th gen LC. Do you feel it is balanced etc. Did you like it? which meta was your favorite? Which pokemon do you feel influenced and shaped the lc meta into what it is today? etc. RIP GEN 5
LC BES TIER U SUK IF U NO TINK BES. In my opinion the meta is at its most balanced stage (ban DST Clamperl). Drilburr and Mienfoo were by far the most influential Pokémon introduced in gen 5. Both got banned/stuff banned. Misdreavus makes B/W 2 LC way different from HGSS. Also in gen 6 Missy gets borked a lot. I think it will probably get banned rather quickly.
So i put together a list of pokemon about to be introduced to lc. Looking at the list I honestly don't see too many threats just based off of abilities and typing. Hopefully that changes whenever ivs are all complete. It seems missy will most likely be a huge threat as rioku said. What also is quite nice is that there seems to be so many pokemon resistant to fighting types. 11 /27 pokemon resist, which could help balance the meta a bit more. http://pastebin.com/0jEv7BFY
I see some good potential from Inkay, Helioptile, Tyrunt, Amaura, and Goomy due to abilities and from what I've seen in game so far. I have no idea how the fairies will perform in LC since the thing there were introduced to un-break was never broken here.