[BW2] LC General Discussion

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Weavile, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Its not like I don't know the basics of VoltTurn, I'm just saying that Foo made VoltTurn by far the easiest thing to use in LC, and the most powerful in my opinion. Why would Porygon ever be a Problem on VoltTurn anyways? I would imagine that people would run water absorb just for Porygon and Scarf Mienfoo can OHKO Porygon: 236+ Atk Mienfoo Hi Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 24-30 (92.3 - 115.38%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

    Mienfoo was deadly, and while it made VoltTurn successful in LC, it overcentralised the meta because of its 70% usage. That can't be healthy for any meta game. I honestly don't know why you are defending the Pokémon that was so good and used so much that it had around twice as much use as the current most used Pokémon, Misdreavus. In my opinion if anything reaches that high usage it really should be looked at and put to suspect.
     
  2. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    If you know the basics then you know how much prediction plays apart of VoltTurn. This stereotypical idea that you just press Volt Turn and U-turn and no other moves is wrong. I'm also glad you can calc a Fighting type vs a Normal type! I don't take a skilled player to figure out most of the time the fighting type will win vs a normal type especially if the match up is Mienfoo vs Porygon. Another thing is why would you stay in with Porygon vs a fucking Mienfoo !?!?!!? especially one with max attack. The switching button is there for a reason, and if you are locked in to HJK than Foongus, Larvesta, Misdreavus, Frillish, Croagunk, etc etc will just switch in and grasp that momentum you got. You are talking about this in theory, try using in-game examples on what actually happens.

    This is why I talk about the usage stats, Snorlax was the face of GSC and was the most used pokemon because there wasn't any reason to not use Snorlax. Mienfoo is in the same boat. You can't overcentralize in a METAGAME that isn't based on USAGE, you have horrible pokemon, mixed with mediocre pokemon, mixed with good pokemon, mixed with excellent pokemon. You will to use most excellent pokemon to make a good team because they are extremely good. Notice how I didn't say it's impossible to make good teams with mediocre pokemon or good pokemon, it is extremely possible to do that and few people actually do that. You don't have to ban something to make people use other pokemon, it's up to the player and it's wrong that you are forcing them. Even now people will use the best pokemon in the meta because they want a solid team, it's all common sense.
     
  3. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Even though the topic of Mienfoo being unbanned is relevant right now (with a month left to g6), i feel like we still have problems with DST Clamperl. It seems to me that everyone has agreed that it is indeed broken, yet nothing has been done. Now iirc there was a suspect on DST back when Mienfoo and Murk were still ALLOWED. The two strongest priority users were still in the meta, and seeing as how weak priority has become since the unbanning of the aforementioned pokemon, that just goes to show how broken DST is. I by no means am asking for a Clamperl ban, but a suspect/ban on DST. By banning DST, Clamperl will be forced to run either LO, Eviolite etc. either weakening it each turn or making it less powerful. By doing this, Clamperl becomes less of a threat and the meta becomes a bit more balanced.
     
  4. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Show me the link please, where it was suspected when Murk and Mienfoo were in the meta.
     
  5. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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  6. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Slam my attempts to prove a point why don't you. Of course VoltTurn requires prediction, but its extremely easy to rack up residual damage even off of NFE attacks. Mienfoo FORCED you to run something like Foongus, Gunk,an 18 speed scarfer, or priority spam. The only thing that made Mienfoo worse was that it would go and heal off a bunch of the damage done to it. And you're right about theory, yes I'm using theory, because I don't like smogon LC and its HO spamfest. I like being able to use creative sets to break through the major threats of the tier. You want to know how I got into LC? It was because Mienfoo was banned. When I first played here, I was told all you need to do to win at LC is run VoltTurn with Mienfoo, and it worked. Don't go saying that I was some idiot who thought all that you could run was VoltTurn, its just that it was so much better and easier to run than everything else that there was no point. After the ban you could run just about everything except stall, you didn't need hazards to help curb regenerator, and you could actually be creative. That's my experience. By no means am I an expert on Mienfoo, but I don't like it.
     
  7. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Of course you have to run something to beat Mienfoo, it's a threat like any other thing. I can tell by how you describe Mienfoo that you haven't had much experience with it. Foongus does other things than just counter Mienfoo, Foongus also walls water types, ground types, and fighting types. Not to mention it has great status moves and a great ability. Please don't say the only reason that foongus was ran was because of Mienfoo. Same with Gunk, a pokemon with a bunch of priority resist water and can stop most shell smashers in the tier. I don't even see how priority stops Mienfoo since it's either neutral to it or resist it. Why would you need 18+ choice scarfers to beat mienfoo, defensive pokemon do a better job since you can switch into it instead of sending the scarfer out to revenge kill.

    YOU DON'T NEED TO BAN SOMETHING TO BE CREATIVE, it's up to the players choice if they want to be creative. Instead of banning Mienfoo why don't YOU TRY TO BE CREATIVE and inspire people to be creative. Make threads about unique pokemon or go into detail with some underused pokemon, don't blame a pokemon for the lack of creativity when it's not even the source of the staleness of LC.
     
  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    We did tell people to be creative. We had threads like this one about being creative. Got few posts and 2 of those posts were about VoltTurn or Mienfoo Regen Cores. You want to know why? There is no reason to use anything else, it was by far and away the easiest and most effective team structure to use, as I said, there is 0 risk in using Mienfoo, absolutely none. The vast majority of Pokémon offer a trade off when used, you use Foongus you trade off the ground resist that something like Shroomish might have for additional bulk, regen and Clear Smog. Shroomish is worse overall but it has that advantage on Foongus. Mienfoo literally has no trade-off besides the tiny niche of Copycat that Riolu has, in Smogon's meta Mienfoo and Scraggy don't tend to compete for team space, they're both weak to flying which is present on Murkrow more often than not, if they did it'd have a trade-off in the form of "you don't get DD", otherwise Mienfoo completely outclasses any fighting type you might want to use, and the team structures built around Mienfoo (VT HO and Balance with regen cores) outclass and eclipse all other team structures bar Sand (in Smogon's meta, in ours that's not there to compete).

    As for the mighty Clam I don't think a suspect could hurt. Gonna talk to Fitzy when he's not afk.
     
  9. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    You because a pokemon is brainless you ban it. ?_? It's not like impossible to take down or destroys your team so bad, if it does it's your team that is bad not the pokemon. If your only argument is that it's easy and effective that's why it's broken, I don't get that. It is not overpowering at all and is manageable, it's just effective. Tbh I don't think any team is built around mienfoo, the best Mienfoo in general is the supporter set and I don't think you can build a team around a supporter. A team with Mienfoo doesn't outclass a team without it ?!?! A team without Mienfoo probably has a mon to counter it so I don't see why it would be a problem. Really you could use Grimer, Foongus, Slowpoke, Frillish, Larvesta, Shelmet, Missy, etc etc to beat Mienfoo or atleast wall it so it won't be that much of a problem.

    Just like there isn't a reason to no use Mienfoo, there isn't a reason to not use Snorlax in GSC. Snorlax is so effective in the tier and there probably isn't that much risk to using Snorlax (I'm not sure since I don't play GSC, but the way the tier is structured is similar to the metagame). If you ban Mienfoo, you really don't care about the balance of the game, you just want to make a metagame you want to see without factoring in the balance. Manipulating to make the meta more fun is wrong.
     
  10. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    I love how similar your argument on why Mienfoo isn't broken is to your argument on why Yanma is. js

    You say that Mienfoo has all these checks that can beat it, Yanma does to. You say there are multiple pokes that can tank Mienfoo's hits. Yanma has the same. I see very little difference in your arguments for Mienfoo and against Yanma.
     
  11. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    You don't need to run a SR setter and Sleep talker for Mienfoo, on the support set Mienfoo only runs HJK/Drain Punch and U-turn for damage which is Mienfoo's best set. Yanma has a boosted hypnosis, and really good coverage on it's offensive sets which is it's best set so it's pretty hard to switch in unless you are a bulky rest talker. Mienfoo has 17 speed but requires a minimum of 14 or 13 so it can spread it's evs to HP and defense, Yanma just needs Max speed and it outspeeds all the 19 pokemon which only 3 pokemon do. ?!? You can say things like Vullaby can switch, but there is a chance it can fall to sleep and then you take another hit with a stab bug buzz. Same with any other special wall switch in.

    You only need 1 check for Mienfoo, but for Yanma you need an SR pokemon and a sleep talker. I've seen offensive teams with Sleep talk Munchlax.... that makes no sense since you are losing your offensive pressure by using a pokemon that saps that momentum from your own team and helps your opponent gain it back forcing which is bad for you since you are offensive and most likely have no switch ins for pokemon.

    Very different pokemon that do different roles.
     
  12. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    You need two checks for Yanma since when? In all my experience one will do be it Drilbur with rocks (don't you dare say Drilbur is good for nothing but rocks this little guy is one of the tiers best) or a Priority user or any scarfer. So much stuff checks Yanma. It's two main draw backs are 1) It's frail, and 2) It is fairly limited, forced to rely on hidden power or gigadrain to cover what its stabs do not. Not to mention that every viable scarfer out speeds it, and many OHKO. It is so easy to revenge, and you don't even need a sleep talker, you can just fodder off something almost dead, a defensive poke that can wall a threat on their team so hard it has time to wake up, a shed skin user, or, albeit rarely, something with lum berry. Yanma like to revenge kill/sleep, but after that it isn't hard to kill in any way.

    List of some scarfers that OHKO it, and other pokemon that can revenge kill it:

    252 Atk Hustle Darumaka (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 286.96% - 339.13% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 SpAtk Magnemite Volt Switch vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yanma: 113.04% - 139.13% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 SpAtk Chinchou (+SpAtk) Volt Switch vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yanma: 104.35% - 130.43% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 Atk Hustle Deino Outrage vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 117.39% - 143.48% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 SpAtk Gastly (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yanma: 104.35% - 130.43% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 SpAtk Misdreavus Thunderbolt vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yanma: 95.65% - 121.74% (93.75% chance to OHKO)
    252 Atk Life Orb Meowth Feint vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 39.13% - 56.52% (2-3 hits to KO) + 252 Atk Life Orb Meowth Fake Out vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 39.13% - 52.17% (2-3 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Snover Blizzard vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yanma: 156.52% - 191.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    255 Atk Taillow (+Atk) Brave Bird vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 156.52% - 191.3% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 Atk Larvesta (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 191.3% - 234.78% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 Atk Cranidos Head Smash vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 573.91% - 678.26% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 Atk Archen Pluck vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 104.35% - 130.43% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    255 Atk Sandile Stone Edge vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 191.3% - 226.09% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    255 Atk Anorith Rock Blast vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 104.35% - 121.74% (Guaranteed OHKO)[/HIDE]
    Now for stuff that takes one turn of set-up, so Yanma can't sleep or revenge them:

    255 +1 Atk Dratini (+Atk) Outrage vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 121.74% - 147.83% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 +2 Atk Shellder Rock Blast vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 86.96% - 121.74% (93.75% chance to OHKO)
    255 +2 Atk Dwebble (+Atk) Rock Blast vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 156.52% - 208.7% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    255 +2 Atk Tirtouga (+Atk) Waterfall vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 117.39% - 143.48% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    Clamperl is broken, no need for calc here
    252 +1 Atk Axew Outrage vs 0 HP/0 Def Yanma: 134.78% - 160.87% (Guaranteed OHKO)
    252 +2 SpAtk Omanyte (+SpAtk) Surf vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Yanma: 147.83% - 182.61% (Guaranteed OHKO)[/HIDE]
    They are all max/max b/c lazy
     
  13. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Rioku you do realise you're listing revengers, not checks right.... like Yanma is forced out by scarfers that hit it with SE moves, duh (if Sub isn't up) but all of those have to have something die just so they can come in. And Yanma has 3 switch ins, assuming SR is up.
     
  14. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    You tell me what Drilbur does on most teams without being a stubborn.

    Tell me what type doesn't Bug / Flying / Hidden Power [Ground] cover.

    It is hard if you don't have a scarfer or rocks, which both aren't mandatory. Sure sometimes are beneficial, but sometimes the pokemon aren't that good. They shouldn't be that game changing at all, it should still be manageable without needing a Revenge Killer aswell.
     
  15. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Drilbur is an incredibly useful mon, with mold breaker SR beating any Natu that try and stop it, the ability to spin, which is very important in supporting mons like Larvesta, Yanma, Ponyta, Houndour, etc. And it's not just sitting there while doing it, it has powerful earthquakes and rock slide to cover that which eq doesn't hit.

    Also, rocks have been all but mandatory for a long time, especially with sturdy getting its boost this gen. It is definitely possible to run teams without SR, but you are losing a lot of passive damage, and leaving yourself vulnerable to sashes and sturdy.
     
  16. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    I know Aurist. I'm listing revengers and Pokémon that it can't touch. It can have a hard time coming in is what I'm trying to get at. There are so many Pokémon that it can't touch 1v1. I would say that there are more than just three switch ins to Yanma though, like Archen or something else, to lazy to do calcs, those took almost two hours...
    Bug/Flying/Hp ground hits NFE on Archen.

    In my experience, I find a revenger necessary on almost every offensive team. And it really isn't hard to fit a rock or electric move onto just about any scarfer. Yanma is an extremely powerful Pokémon, but it falls under the same traps as Darkrai, whose role is probably the closest out of the other tiers: post sleep revenge.

    First take a look at the viability ranking thread, second use it. That thing is almost as easy to use and as useful as Misdreavus. It can run great offensive and support sets with swords dance and sr/rapid spin. It 2HKOs so many Pokémon. It OHKO's Magnemite, SD beats Porygon, beats scarf Misdreavus, beats Gastly, beats all the fire types in the tier, beats Natu, beats Croagunk, I believe it beats a smashed Dwebble, beats Pawniard, and it beats almost all the flying types. I know you want me to say stealth rocks, and yes it does set and spin on most team, but that's jut its supportive side. It does so much so easily.
     
  17. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I said what does it do on most teams, NOT what it CAN do. I'm pretty sure a lot of pokemon can do a lot of stuff, BUT is it present in the tier? Why prepare or be scared of something that hasn't been created ir attempted. Tbh when it could use SD extremely effective was in Sand, but it was still manageable.

    If your argument is sashes and sturdy will give you trouble if don't run rocks is not true. Sashes is only run by a very few amount of pokemon, the only one I can think of is Abra that is immune to Hazards and any other form of residual damage. Everything else is either choiced, eviolite, or LO nothing else really. Croagunk is really effective in stopping most Shell Smashers + with eviolite many others can take a hit and status it or clear it's stats. You do not need that extra residual bit of damage that only affects a few pokemon very harsh.

    I found this comment which was written by another user about LC and about the staleness/overcentralization. This is really worth the read.

    "A lot of people have been complaining about overcentralization, but I think they need to rethink some things. People use Pokemon like Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow because they are good. Philosophically speaking, there should, at any given time, be 6 best Pokemon in the meta. Granted, they may not synergize super well, and those 6 may sometimes change, but there should be an objective way to define this based on number of available sets, % of the meta said Pokemon can beat, and ability to work with other common Pokemon. We haven't found a way to objectively identify these 6 Pokemon ever, in any metagame, nor is it likely that we ever will.

    A competitive metagame is one in which people are using the best Pokemon in the meta. What you need to understand is that people using inferior choices for style points are not playing competitively. People trying out new things as a potential counter to something commonly used are metagaming, but not if their potential counter is objectively inferior to another Pokemon in the meta. A "competitive" Pokemon needs some sort of niche: and that niche may allow it to rise into prominency or be too insignificant to matter in the long run.

    Again, and this is mostly philosophical: there is a clear cut distinction between a competitive metagame and a diverse metagame. They are not always mutually exclusive, but whether or not they are mutually exclusive IS NOT UP TO US, IT'S AN INHERENT ASPECT OF GAME FREAK'S CREATION OF THE POKEMON IN A GIVEN TIER THAT WE HAVE ESTABLISHED.

    I believe LC is currently a competitive tier. It is overcentralized, but I believe taking more attempts to decentralize it at this point in the metagame to add diversity are wrong. The reason is that the commonly used Pokemon (people often point to Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow - likely 3 of our hypothetical 6) are good, but not imbalanced. Usage does not justify any degree of overpowered-ness. Only stats, movepool, typing, and other components can do that. A Pokemon's effectiveness in a metagame should not be qualifications for being banned. This leads to people not learning to adapt to a meta, ever. Competitively speaking, the best Pokemon that are not inherently overpowered (and most people seem to agree Mienfoo, Missy, and Murkrow are not) should be used as much as possible in order to create the most competitive atmosphere possible.

    Eventually, you might counter, people would be fighting the same teams of 6 v 6 Pokemon. The great thing about Pokemon is that even in those circumstances, move choices, who they lead with, EVs, and moves on individual turns would still differ. However, a metagame in which everyone is using the same 6 mons would never last as people would learn to adapt to that exceedingly predictable. In turn, a new 6 Pokemon would rise (perhaps including some of the previous "elite 6") allowing a just as competitive metagame.

    If you're worried about diversity, I don't think competitive Pokemon is necessarily for you. What you want is a bunch of different choices where all Pokemon are created equal and games would mostly if not entirely be won merely in teambuilding. To call that healthy for a competitive environment is, in a word, foolish."[/HIDE]
     
  18. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Oh my jesus Arte. Can you get off the usage/diversity tip for a minute. I can't believe all it took was one minor mention of "you have more choice in teambuilding, which is one piece of evidence banning Mienfoo had a positive effect on the tier" for you to go on THIS long saying the same thing. This whole bullshit about "it's just better" is going on wayyyyyyyyyy too long. Please, head to the OU thread and tell everyone about how Thundurus, Excadrill and Blaziken aren't broken, they're just "better", or something, because LC has truly heard enough.

    Disclaimers because you're gonna be a pedantic fuck: Thundurus, Excadrill and Blaziken aren't comparable to Mienfoo or other broken LC mons. Having more choice in teambuilding does not imply a better meta, having less broken pokemon (like Mienfoo and Murkrow) does. Having more choice in teambuilding than when broken pokemon were in a tier, is a natural progression towards having as balanced a meta as one can have with whichever meta one may be working with.
     
  19. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    You are still dumb as fuck you get swept by Mienfoo if you think it's broken.

    The only reason I keep on mentioning Team Building is because that's the piece of evidence you have againts it which isn't even evidence. It's just an excuse that people that don't even know the meta use, like you o: Mienfoo doesn't hit so hard it's overpowering it all, you don't have to run a lot of checks for it, so why is it broken. Just because you don't see Mankey or Machop being used instead of it, it's like you didn't even read the comment at all. It's probably because you can't accept that as the truth, so my recommendation is like he says, competitive pokemon is not for you so instead of fucking it up with your poorly viewed beliefs leave them out so we can actually make the meta a better one. Really you are the one that needs to get out of the LC threads because you have the wrong ideas on how the meta works. Now my response to the "Head to OU thread" Why should I listen to a person that wanted to keep an illegal Hustle Rufflet to make the tier "funner"? :\ That is so funny jajaja

    I suggest you read the comment, take notes on it, and learn from it because it's really clear that you did not. ^_^
     
  20. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Atre cut the personal stuff. Just thought I'd way in on Mienfoo's power, it is the only LC fighter able to OHKO Porygon un-boosted. So, fastest, pseudo bulk, strongest... Typically those are great qualities on a Pokémon in any tier, but when they put it leagues above the other Pokémon in the tier, it shouldn't be there. Again this is in my opinion. So yeah...

    On the topic of a Clamperl suspect, after using it some more than I already have its hard to deny its power, but people have found numerous ways of stopping it. I'm iffy on it. It feels kind of like Moltres in LU, while extremely strong in the tier its not nearly unstoppable, although Clamperl is stronger. It's half broken in my opinion. It has great power and speed, but that's where it ends. It that OP one trick pony. So yeah... go Clamperl suspect.
     
  21. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    He insults me I insult him. ^_^ You should pay more attention instead of telling me to stop.

    Are you really doing this? "Mienfoo the only fighting type to 1hko porygon" ....
    That is such a shit reason, Porygon shouldn't stay in on any fighting type regardless? All these useless calcs you use on Pokemon that will for sure lose based on the match up. Fastest fighting type, but not the fastest pokemon in the tier, do you forget that Missy can switch in and Wisp it o: even Frillish. You just don't like it because it's boring, which is still a shit reason to ban something. Mienfoo is not overpowering at all anyone can see that, if you don't want to use top level pokemon then why bother playing competitive. LC isn't just about "having fun" some people take it seriously and actually try to make solid teams using top pokes in the meta and do not give a fuck if it's stale or boring. If your only argument on Mienfoo is that it is brainless or boring or anything relating to team building, you do not have a case at all.

    Unban Mienfoo along with the rest of the mons.
     
  22. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Stable and boring are not the same in any way. A stable meta needs little to no change, has a wide variety of options, and does not have any truly overpowering Pokémon, a good example would be Ubers. A boring meta is over-centralized, has one or two viable play styles and, and is just boring to play, a good example is GSC OU. My question for you is this: What should we ban a Pokémon for if it cant be that its overpowered, overused, hurts teambuilding, destroys creativity, and forces you to run a check?

    And I do pay attention to the way the insults have been going. You started on page 10 quite a few posts back Aurist finally threw a real insult your way after being insulted several times.
     
  23. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    Yanma?
     
  24. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    So you were not paying attention it seems. ^_^

    To me it started when he told me to shut up and said I ran a style I don't.

    "What should we ban a Pokémon for if it cant be that its overpowered, overused, hurts teambuilding, destroys creativity, and forces you to run a check?"

    I had to get people to decipher that shit, Mienfoo is not overpowering at all which is the only reason for a ban in LC. OMG OMG OMG OMG It forces you to run a check for it! Oooooh no.

    Ban Yanma. That shit is broken especially the LO set, it turns the match into a "if you dont have rocks then you are likely fucked" and it's hard to switch in to it's attacks because of LO and it's good coverage. Ponyta can get fucked over by a combination of Air Slash and HP ground since it will outspeed, and if it isn't asleep then it has a chance to put it to sleep with Hypnosis. Even if you have rocks on your team it still won't guarantee you beating Yanma. It's overpowering as fuck.
     
  25. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Summary of these past couple pages: we're "not listening/paying attention" until we agree with everything Arte says. And we just have to put up with their shitty attitude, for some reason, instead of having a problem with it. lol.

    But yes, I'd like to see Yanma gone. It has like 1 check in the entire tier, the rest of the tier has to rely on Yanma to miss or else it'll take out 2-3 of your team. It's pretty broken.
     
  26. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Hi, so far we have been doing the opposite of what I have been saying for like about a whole Pokemon Year (x: this is a thing), so really you can't use that shit againts me. Even then you still haven't found a reason why Mienfoo is broken except it makes team building fun or some shit which is a stupid reason. Unless it hits hard and has no switch ins at all, it's broken in LC.
     
  27. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Here are some reasons:
    A. Strongest fighter B. Fastest fighter C. 70% usage D. Forces you to run a fight absorber E. Breaks VoltTurn F. Over-centralizes VoltTurn
    You are also only using one of Mienfoo's sets to justify that it isn't broken. What about LO or Bulky?
    From what I've gathered of this topic it's Arte is right and we must all do what Arte says even if Arte isn't right.
     
  28. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    LC was HORRIBLE when Mienfoo was in the tier. Virtually every team you ever faced was:

    Mienfoo
    Murkrow
    Misdreavus
    Chichou
    Filler
    Filler
     
  29. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    oo I was talking about Bulky Mienfoo.

    Even now that Mienfoo isn't in the meta, you still have to have a fighting absorber. Timburr. Gunk, and Riolu are still in the game so quit using that point because it's stupid. The same shit you use to cover those fighting types you can use for Mienfoo.

    FUCK USAGE, this is a metagame not a tier, are you not capable of understanding that. People use it because it's good and you can't blame them for actually trying to play comepetitive and using the best there is.

    Dr. Doom there is nothing wrong with that list. If you want to play competitive you will use shit like that, if you don't care for the metagame and want to have fun go ahead and use extremely horrible shit. LC is just as competitive as any other tier/meta, if you want to have fun go play LC UU or some other metameta. Stop ruining LC by trying to make a COMPETITIVE META fun.
     
  30. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Mienfoo was broken because it had no reliable checks, was free momentum on any team with minimal prediction or even vaguely intelligent play because risk was significantly lowered by good bulk/typing, coverage, regenerator and u-turn. It had a tonne of different sets and was simultaneously a wallbreaker and team supporter. It was also broken because running Mienfoo on a team was an immediate advantage over a team without Mienfoo regardless of skill. Besides which it made LC a boring trash tier to play where you had to run Mienfoo HO. It will never ever be unbanned in BW2 because it was broken as shit and made the tier awful to play.

    And I'd say "stop bringing up usage because it just gives Arte ammo" but that would mean we'd have to change how we talk just because of an annoying person who literally will never stop regardless, and lol at the idea of doing that.

    Arte truly you should take your argument to OU/UU/LU/NU/whatever and talk about how Excadrill/Drought/Cresselia/Jynx/whatever clearly weren't broken, they were just better than everything else. The only reason you're getting away with this bs logic in the first place is because there's no actual developed LC community or discussion. In any other tier you'd have been infracted multiple times in this conversation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  31. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Hi its a trash tier now,

    Wtf "no reliable checks" do you even here yourself. You always assume Mienfoo will u-turn on an incomming Misdreavus or Foongus or Grimer or any other checks and fucking counters, that's not true at all. Use Drain Punch on a switch in from Missy you can get wisped and will not hit as hard, use Drain Punch on Foongus then Foongus has a chance to spore something, Slowpoke can spread status if it switches in on a Fighting move. Why the hell are you even using prediction as an argument at all. Even if it the level of prediction is easier, that can all change depending on the player.

    Lol? What good coverage Fake out / Knock Off / Drain Punch (or HJK for scraggy) / U-turn omg omg omg you cover most of the meta with those moves that hit hard omg omg omg omg. That is the bulky set which is the best Mienfoo set due to its ability to tank some hits and use regenerator. It isn't used to hit hard and that set is slow compared to it's offensive sets, and does not hit as hard.

    The LO set isn't even used as much, because it can't switch in due to it's shit bulk. It takes about 71% from Shadow Ball unboosted from a Missy, you would have to either fodder something or double switch just to use it. Lets go deeper.

    Mienfoo (LO): Max speed and atk 18 atk / 17 speed -- Fake out / Hjk / U-turn / Stone Edge. Pretty good moves, however it still gets fucked by common switch ins like Missy, Frillish, Foongus, Croagunk, Hippopotas, even Grimer (which is it's niche). Kept under pressure with Abra, has to rely on speed ties with Drifloon / Archen / Drilbur. It doesn't even reach the magic number 19 which is like the best in the tier.

    I lol at the fact that a person that supported Illegal mons in the meta actually thinks he knows knows how the meta runs. I might be annoying, but I'm not stupid ^_^. I wouldn't want a person like that in my community :[

    Except that OU/UU/LU are nothing like LC, where you are filled with like 50% shit mons and the rest fall in the category between Decent / Good / Really good / No reason to not have it in a team. Mienfoo happens to be on a "No reason to not have it in a team". So of course there will be things that are better than the rest, they aren't broken, but they seem that way because of the comparison like Duskull and Misdreavus, why the hell would you use Duskull when Misdreavus in the tier. !?!?! You keep on bringing up shit from OU/LU/UU w/e which is where your head is when you are talking in the LC threads.

    This meta is exactly the same, as the volt turn one before the unbans, except with Mienfoo rofl. How the hell is this better, the only difference is more DW abilities and people from Smogon LC community that discovered new sets which is where basically most analysis come from in the LC section. Go check for yourself. I'm not in a deluded LC meta where everything is colorful as fuck, and you see all these new pokemon and everyone is happy. That's not going to happen because this is a competitive meta where you use the best to win even if it makes the meta stale.

    You still have the option to use a couple of sub decent pokemon in your team, but it will never be good unless you have a couple of top tier mons. Using things that are completely outclassed by other things like Mankey/Machop and Mienfoo is just stupid. Same with Missy, Krow, Drilbur, Foongus, Chinchou, etc etc.
     
  32. Rioku

    Rioku Not again.

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    Arte=Only person in LC who likes Mienfoo
    I somehow find this hard to believe. While I didn't play before all the bans, I did play in the VoltTurn era, and this meta is NOTHING like that one. Take for example how you see teams that don't have 3/6 the same as every other team you've seen while laddering that day. Now you can run so many more styles of teams that AREN'T outclassed by one. Now there is diversity in the meta, and no overpowered broken play style.
    Ok THIS makes me very angry. Have you ever written an analysis? no. So why don't you come back to me when you have. These analyses take a lot of time and are very difficult to write at times. They take several hours of testing and toying to try and create original builds or describe the most popular ones. Just because some of the builds analyzed are the same as smogon ones doesn't mean they were copied. Go write and analysis before you insult those of us who actually bothered to try.

    Mienfoo has moves it can abuse in poison, dark, fighting rock, normal, flying, and dragon types. That's actually really good coverage. Just because one move set is used the most doesn't mean there aren't others, you said so yourself. You are right about the LO set being the worst in most cases, but can 2HKO Foongus with acrobatics, so that doesn't really make Foongus a safe switch in, and Flying Gem Mienfoo, which did exist, can OHKO Foongus and always does after any hazards. Mienfoo was quite unpredictable outside of HJK and U-turn. Go to NU then and talk about Jynx. NU half sucks the same as LC.
    I found this while reading through the entire discussion. Meinfoo=Strongest fighter=never hit anything hard? Yeah no. Mienfoo has a pretty high attack reaching 19 on a boosting nature, not that anyone uses adamant foo. It also has a STAB move with 130 base power and 90% accuracy. So you have a reliable STAB with absurd power and a high attack, yet it can't hit hard?

    @ Aurist: I agree with you completely.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  33. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    @ Arte
    [​IMG]
    [/HIDE]

    Enough now Arte, seriously. You have made your point numerous times, others in this thread have proven you wrong numerous times, and yet you still keep at it. Mienfoo was banned because it did too much too well, had way too high usage and was overcentralising. Overcentralisation is a legit reason for a Pokémon to be banned. I can't think of any other tier/metagame that had a Pokémon with 70% usage. Even all the Arceus formes combined had less usage. That is not healthy. The goal of every metagame is to be competitive, diverse and entertaining. Having the same 3 or 4 pokes on every team completely defeats that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  34. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Well, not exactly good to see this conversation still going on...

    Anyways, lets break down mienfoo....

    -Speed, it has enough to outspeed every support poke, most of which stay at ten, and the occasional one like bulky chinchou.
    -Survivability, it is the only fighting type with recovery, no drain punch doesnt count because it heals no where near as much damage as will be taken, and can be blocked by the ever so common ghost.
    -Utility. Bam, a big one here, other fighting types are all offensive, sure different variations off offensive; choice, bulk up, copycat sweeper. Mienfoo can be offensive, it can scout which no other fighting type, it can support with taunt and knock off and more. Burn mienfoo? no problem, regenerator covers any damage taken and is still useful for knock off and taunt when burned. Lets face it, even timburr hates status which can severely cut it's lifespan, 1/8 of its HP is nothing small, especially since there is no passive recover in LC.

    But yeah, arte, mienfoo was never banned or discussed for being lethal and uncheckable, it was banned for over centralizing the metagame. Mienfoo's movepool and stats are ideally distributed, its too centralizing because of it, though i would still go for the regenerator ban. Then again, even foongus' usage is pretty dead.
     
  35. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I Trak I know, it's just Rioku just assumed it was overpowered and uncheckable and thought was a reason it was. I never got to make my argument on the overcentralization part due to constant bs from him. I'll talk about Dr. Doom at the bottom of my shit.

    First off, I will talk about it's ev spread. Due to all the things Mienfoo does, it's ev spread has to be flexible, it can't be so fast that you run out of evs to put in hp and defense, and it can't be so bulky it has no speed or some attack. Due to all of this it's offensive capabilities are limited and walls will tank hits and recover from them. Things like Larvesta can easily switch in an threaten to hurt it hard with a stab Flare Blitz and it's ability Flame Body can burn Mienfoo simply by making contact. Slowpoke can abuse it's regenerator and constantly switch in while threatening an incomming pokemon with scald / toxic / thunder wave / etc. Foongus can do the same thing, as can Frillish and many other pokes. etc etc

    The survivability isn't as good as you make it seem. Mienfoo tends to switch in on a lot of moves and things it doesn't resist (takes neutral do over 33%) which is more than the regen it gets. If you factor status along with this it slowly decreases the hp until it cannot switch without being KO'd by a strong neutral attack. Also since Mienfoo was on every team when you face someone, most of the time they Mienfoo as Knock off Fodder (Mienfoo knocks off another Mienfoo). When you take away Eviolite, you take the "bulk" it has and you will see that it isn't so effective without it. I'm not saying this happens in every game, I'm just saying that this happened often.

    Utility, the main one being Knock Off due to how good eviolite is, the other stuff is good, but we all know the selling point of Mienfoo. Mienfoo will not knock off your whole team, most of the time it only knocks one thing because your opponent constantly switches in that counter/check for Mienfoo. It doesn't need the whole team to get involved just to stop Mienfoo, all you need is one pokemon that even knocked off can wall Mienfoo to death. Grimer / Foongus / Larvesta / Slowpoke / Frillish / Shelmet / Vullaby (sometimes) / Budew (Wobby likes that shit) / Croagunk (Croagunk can knock it off or even set up on it with BU) / Koffing / Tentacool / Bulbasaur (Trak you are fond of that). I'm pretty sure there is more, but I don't want to use any shitty pokes like Zubat / Nidoran-F etc etc.

    Now overcentralization: "A lot of people have been complaining about overcentralization, but I think they need to rethink some things. People use Pokemon like Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow because they are good. Philosophically speaking, there should, at any given time, be 6 best Pokemon in the meta. Granted, they may not synergize super well, and those 6 may sometimes change, but there should be an objective way to define this based on number of available sets, % of the meta said Pokemon can beat, and ability to work with other common Pokemon. We haven't found a way to objectively identify these 6 Pokemon ever, in any metagame, nor is it likely that we ever will.

    "A competitive metagame is one in which people are using the best Pokemon in the meta. What you need to understand is that people using inferior choices for style points are not playing competitively. People trying out new things as a potential counter to something commonly used are metagaming, but not if their potential counter is objectively inferior to another Pokemon in the meta. A "competitive" Pokemon needs some sort of niche: and that niche may allow it to rise into prominency or be too insignificant to matter in the long run."

    "Again, and this is mostly philosophical: there is a clear cut distinction between a competitive metagame and a diverse metagame. They are not always mutually exclusive, but whether or not they are mutually exclusive IS NOT UP TO US, IT'S AN INHERENT ASPECT OF GAME FREAK'S CREATION OF THE POKEMON IN A GIVEN TIER THAT WE HAVE ESTABLISHED."

    "I believe LC is currently a competitive tier. It is overcentralized, but I believe taking more attempts to decentralize it at this point in the metagame to add diversity are wrong. The reason is that the commonly used Pokemon (people often point to Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow - likely 3 of our hypothetical 6) are good, but not imbalanced. Usage does not justify any degree of overpowered-ness. Only stats, movepool, typing, and other components can do that. A Pokemon's effectiveness in a metagame should not be qualifications for being banned. This leads to people not learning to adapt to a meta, ever. Competitively speaking, the best Pokemon that are not inherently overpowered (and most people seem to agree Mienfoo, Missy, and Murkrow are not) should be used as much as possible in order to create the most competitive atmosphere possible."

    Dr. Doom
    Where is your credibility? I know for a fact you have no LC knowledge about how the meta is structured. Your ideals for what a metagame should be are wrong. Diversity comes from the player, not the meta, A player chooses to run what it runs. Forcing someone to pick something else is wrong because you are taking away the freedom of a player to be competitive. Really how can you be competitive and diverse, those to mixed up don't make sense at all. Please get of this discussion and stay in your lane, or gain some knowledge instead of piggy backing other peoples opinions just for the sake or arguing. I argue because I care about this meta and I actually want to see it balance. Not in terms of overcentralization, but in terms of nothing is overpowered. I played this meta since 4th gen and I love it, so I don't want the faith of the meta to be decided by a person that doesn't even play the tier and has no knowledge about the meta at all. Ty ^^[/HIDE]
     
  36. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Actually I play quite a bit of LC. I play much more now than I used to, since it was crap when Mienfoo was there. I often ladder on different alts because of the various forum challenges. Mienfoo was banned because it was just too good. What has changed since then?

    I have used Clamperl quite often lately, and it does come close to being broken. It is one of the best late game sweepers in the tier. However I found that it needs an awful lot of support to pull off a successful sweep, and due to the defence drops from Shell Smash most priority moves will 2HKO. Ferroseed only has a tiny chance (think it's something like 6% but not 100% sure) and OHKO back with Seed Bomb; Scarf Misdreavus and Gastly outrun even at +2 and can OHKO with Thunderbolt.

    Yanma's in a similar boat IMO: it can be tough to deal with, but most specially defensive Pokémon (Porygon, Munchlax, Chinchou etc.) can check it well enough. I can see why the people who believe it's broken believe what they do, and I think it and Clamperl do still warrant a suspect discussion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  37. Pokemon United

    Pokemon United Member

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    The main argument with Clamperl is not that it itself is broken, but DST is broken. It does not need an awful lot of support, it only needs chance to set up ss which it can do quite easily. Ferroseed is not a check, as it does need to be at full health to survive a +2 ice beam, although it can still be ohko'd

    +2 248 SpA DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 164 HP / 148 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 18-22 (78.26 - 95.65%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    And eviolite chinchou can not take a +2 hp grass lol what are you talking about.

    +2 248 SpA DeepSeaTooth Clamperl Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 228 SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 32-38 (128 - 152%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    Scarf Misdreavus and Gastly could be considered as a check, but they see such low usage so I wouldn't consider them as a solid check.
     
  38. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Retracted about Chinchou. I should've used a damage calculator. Derp moment...

    A DeepSeaTooth suspect discussion could be interesting. No question it gives Clamperl an insane amount of power, and there's very little it can't OHKO after a Shell Smash. It also gives it the power with no drawbacks. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it makes Clamperl broken though. Would a suspect discussion be worth it with 2 weeks to go before X and Y's release? Then we're going to have a whole load of other shit to worry about.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  39. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I discussed this with Fitzy. He doesn't believe a suspect of DST or Clam should really happen. He believes it's fine in the meta, providing you prepare for it it's no more "broken" a threat than most. Personally I don't mind either way so it's 1-0 in favour of no suspect between us. That said DST is not without drawback, it sacrifices Eviolite. Which is actually p big.
     
  40. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    What I meant was that the power it brings doesn't have any drawbacks - like a Life Orb has recoil and Choice Band/Specs lock you into one move, the Plates only power up one move type etc.