Ok. Now, we have Advance mode on PO, a ladder and we can play it any time we want, why not starting a thread to talk about the metagame? Well, I think the first thing we should talk about is : The tappers ; Dugtrio and Magneton. I think they should be banned. Cheap and anti-metagame, they ruin all the Stall strategies. What do you think about it? Discuss.
Those two pokemon are frail and easily taken care of. If you want to stall, try scouting for them and picking them off before trying to stall them out, or using pokemon that can easily take their hits. To ban them would be ridiculous I think.
You think it's easy to take them out. When you're trying to use spikes with your Skarmory, you can't. Why? Magneton. After taking Skarmory or Forretress out, nothing can stop a physical sweeper like Ursaring, Marowak ect.. Dugtrio is lame. He trapps your pokemon and you can't switch, so you can say ''bye'' yo your pokemon. Even if it's weak and frail, the item Choice Band exists and the priotiry moves help him a lot. Banning them seems ridiculous, but there's good reasons.
Intimidate users, faster special/physical attackers, Steelix, Bulky Waters. It's embarrassing if you get swept by an Ursaring/Marowak.
Banning anything in RSE is ridiculous. I played Netbattle for a good 3-4 years, and found almost no single strategy to be unbeatable. I think stall is fun. My first RSE match was 142 turns, about 3/4 of which was 6-4 for the other guy. The mindgames involved in stall are more fun, to me, than those in hyperoffense.
I don't think Magneton cares about Intimidate and Bulky Waters. For Steelix, Switch powa, who's stupid to let Magneton vs. Steelix? You dunno what can a well- played Dugtrio do, as it seems. You never saw a Marowak, Ursaring sweeping after Skarmory/Forry are down?
I'm sure I have. But the loser either has a team that is designed poorly for OU or they don't know how to use it effectively.
Pokemon with levitate or flying type can switch on Dugtrio. As for Magneton there are some options... 1. Specially defensive train your steels. 2. (Less Likely) give them HP ground. 3. SCOUT FOR MAGNETON, switch in Skarmory and switch out into a magneton counter if you feel your opponent may have one. 4. Have pokemon that counter both trappers (going back to dugtrio), IE swampert. (barring HP grass) 5. Don't rely on full stall, used a balance team, if you take away trappers you overpower stall.
1= Even Specially defensif Skarmory is KOed by Thunderbolt. Same for Forretress, it's KOed by HP Fire. Look at Magneton's Special Attack. ._. 2= Don't be stupid. What can a Drill Peck/HP Ground/Roar-Spikes/Rest do? Nothing. By giving only Roar, your Skarmory is useless (Skarmory's job is spiking). By giving Spikes...Clam Minders are destroying your team. 3= It's the only viable solution. Switch in Skarmory then re-switch or just use Roar/Whirlwind. But not all the players are stupid ; They don't switch in Magneton early. 4= Like I said, a well- played trapper is just difficult to take down. You're gonna destroy your strategy if you try to do it. 5= RSE is all Stall and you can't oblige persons to play Balanced teams. Everyone plays what he wants. EDIT : HP Ground is not even an OHKO on Magneton. -,- (80 Atk Evs)
With Skarm, you can just WW if you think some noob maggy is coming in, and then go to Dugtrio when you think they're going to bring it back in. If Marowak or Ursaring are sweeping, you need a more regular dose of water types/intimidate users. Just about every OU water outspeeds Marowak, and Ursaring doesn't have STAB Rock Slide to bother Gyarados/Salamence with.
Juggy, Marowak/Ursaring are good as unisweepers, so they have a entiere team to support them ; You can't check them with a simple Bulky Water or wathever. Well, I think this needs some tests (battles) on Beta. I'll do it later. :<
You are talking about them like if they were normal sweepers, the problem is not to find pokemon that can counter them, the problem is that even if you do have one you can't send him to save your skarm/bliss, and stop saying you should anticipate there coming. For exemple, you send a skarmory to spikes, and just to make sure there is no magneton around you immediately call him back, your opponent doesn't send him just to make you feel safe, if he does that like 3/4 times there is NO WAY you can predicte that he is going to send a you don't even know if he has one, and suddently, here he is ! Ok you will be able to kill him latter but not before doing his job which is taking out your physical wall, something that is VITAL to every stall team. @Lutra Oh RLY ? so you can beat an Ursaring just with Intimidate users, faster special/physical attackers or bulky water ? well why don't you try a team with NO physical wall(I said no one, not just skarm) against an Ursaring and we'll see what you think about Ursaring. And Steelix yes he wall Ursaring, but what if you want skarm in your team not steelix ? we should just put a steelix in every team ?
1. I'm not only talking about Forry and Skarm. 2. I wasn't talking about only Forry/Skarm, once again. 3. Don't switch in Magneton early? They want to get rid of steels as fast as possible so their Salamences/Dragonites can sweep. 4. A skilled staller should be able to counter trappers. 5. Exactly my point, don't use stall if you can't counter trappers. There is nothing broken about Magneton and Dugtrio, their stats are pretty middling, all they have going for them is stall, to make them uber would be ridiculous. And Jirachier, most stall teams have more than one physical wall, and there are plenty of them that don't have to be steel. IE: Regirock, Dusclops, Donphan, Weezing, Bold Suicune.
Here is the thing, in order to COUNTER something, you need to switch, it's like tying someone to a tree and asking them to defend themselves against someone else ._.
Skarmory becomes absurdly broken without Magneton, and no, you don't need to switch necessarily. Blissey can ice beam Dugtrio since it won't be KO'd by an EQ and if you think your opponent cannot do anything to Skarmory and will switch, whirlwind immediately to see what they switch into, then put up your spikes if it wasn't a threat.
>Skarmory is broken ; That's because you're too lazy to think for a plan to check Skarmory in the party, you just wan't to send in Magneton and finish the game. Btw, this is Advance, you need to think a little.
For your information I don't make use of Dugtrio or Magneton. 4/6 pokemon on my team can take care of Skarmory, but that's because I have an offensive team. It comes down to that there is no need to make stall harder to break when it's already used so much. If trappers were really that broken, wouldn't reputable sources have been them back when ADV was played more?
With all due respect Lady Umb, your complaints are very similar to those who just started playing ADV. Complaints about Skarmbliss and Magtrio were quite commonplace, with people going as far as you clause those pokemon in their information bar. One should not just be able to effortless implement their strategy and win matches, it requires a bit of work. If a Magneton is coming in on your Skarmory, you could easily WW on your first turn, to check if your foe has a Magneton or not. If you are using Forry, use EQ on the first turn (it'll always OHKO Magneton). If you are still having trouble with having your main spiker trapped use Cloyster. Unlike in DP, Cloyster is a perfectly viable spiker and my personal spiker of choice. As for Dugtrio, it requires prediction to utilize, otherwise one good attack will KO it. The move substitute is an excellent move. It protects you from status and critical hits, also if you are behind a substitute, more than likely Dugtrio will switch out. I'm an ADV veteran player, I'm aware of the metagame, aware of the complaints and if you or anyone else needs help, just drop me a PM on pokemon online, I'd be happy to help.
Sorry, It's not the first time I play ADV. Did I complain about Skarmbliss? No, I didn't. Read another time and try again. :/
The problem with Magneton and Dugtrio is that they don't let any chance. When Magneton got a free (and absolutely anti-tactic) kill every fight, Dugtrio finishs every low-hp pokemon. You're talking about specialised counter .. We don't care about that. Fact is that Magneton and Dugtrio, as some other combo, ruins the metagame. We don't need more clue !
@evolutia Players who make use of diggy/maggy are those who are not skilled enought to beat them without completely blocking switch. Let's imagine that every pokemon had an ability to trap the opponent, the moment you send a pokemon in battle he cannot be called back, there will be almost no strategy, you just hope that your opponent send something weak against your pokemon and vice versa.
We do plan for Skarmory. We get a MAGNETON. or a RAIKOU. Or a BLAZIKEN. This is utter bs. You're saying that the opponent has better prediction skills. That is why he won, not because he had a direct counter that, on even footing, you can avoid. You have to assume both players are at an even ability level, otherwise any comparison made is just not reliable.
Thank you sincerely for ignoring other parts of my posts. If you did have prior experience with ADV play, then you should be quite knowledgeable and adept with commonplace strategies and how to counter them. I've suggested ways to handle both Magneton and Dugtrio in my post. I disagree. If Magneton is ruining your spiker and you are having trouble checking it. WW'ing with Skarmory or EQ'ing with Forry. Or if you still cannot adapt and are continuing to lose your spiker, you have the option of using Cloyster. With some caution, I've found that you can utilize your spiker, even if Magneton is coming in on it. Also, if it's so commonplace, you could very easily switch to Dugtrio (ironically) and trap Magneton. Then your spiker will able to do it's job without worry. I disagree wholeheartedly with your first statement. I find that many who have your sentiments simply aren't as cautious as they should be when implementing their strategy. I don't have to imagine the hypothetical...it merely speaks to what type of player you are. You should not just be able to effortlessly execute a strategy and hope to win. Every play style has a weakness.
1- I'm using Forry/skarm mainly as a wall not a spikes so cloyster can't replace them 2- EQUAKE on Forry = Nothing against Gengar 3-Diggy/Maggy ARE the ultimate effortless strategy
Uh...just because they don't require ultimate thinking doesn't mean that they're effortless. With Dugtrio, you have to think about how many EVs you will invest in Sp. Def to survive Raikou, or possibly Blissey, while still outspeeding many threats; with Magneton, you have to support it well, because it honestly has mediocre-low stats for OU. And if your opponent has no Skarmory, it's basically a wasted slot.
I mean, copying anything from anyone is effortless strategy. You could argue the same for stalling in general.
I would definately not say that Magneton or Dugtrio are broken. While they definately don't require much prediction on your part they are also very niche in their uses and can be played around by, as others have noted, whirlwinding or earthquaking. This is why you SCOUT, people. Do you whine as much in regular OU when something pursuit-traps you?
No changes should be done in the ADV tier, for the same logic that snorlax is not banned in GSC. Its an old metagame, and its like "remember those old times". In ADV, they have been discussed a lot, and we decided to keep them in OU, and we are not here to change old metagames. In particular, banning the trappers is simply ridiculous. What's doing magneton besides of killing skarm and maybe forry or other slow weak steel? Nothing, its dead weight. I can understand discussions about Celebi, Suicune, Zapdos, etc, but seriously, pretending to ban things like Skarmbliss, or the trappers makes no sense. If you cannot beat them, maybe its your fault, or your team's fault. In ADV, your skill is much more important than in DP, and the metagame is much more balanced
1. Perhaps Metagross or even Registeel would be a better option then. 2. Yes, it does nothing to Gengar but it does deter Magneton....but Forry can't handle Gengar anyway so that point is moot. 3. Hardly. All in all and I'm doing my best to try to remain respectful, but it doesn't seem like you've considered what I've said at all. That your mind is made up. EDIT: Thank you M Dragon. ADV is a very skill based metagame, you cannot just power your way through in DP.
Mhm. This discussion is close. But I still think trappers are cheap and annoying and we should ban them. :d You guys just were than us. :p Talking about Celebi and Jirachi would cool, now, nah?
Dugtrio and Magneton have never been banned in the past and I doubt they will be at this point. Learn to play around them. This is not DP where we will ban everything that seems to be troubling.
On the subject of Jirachi, I don't have half as much of a problem with the calm mind sweeper that most people seem to use in Advance as the incredibly annoying flinchhaxer he is in Platinum, and while it is a bit harder to revenge kill then say Raikou, I really don't think there needs to be any kind of "suspect" warning for it, if I got Umb's post right.
Well, I already played HP ground Skarm with enough speed to outspeed the regular Magneton, and it's LOL. Dugtrio is probably the worst Trapper ever, because of its pro bulk and Gengars, Gyarados, and other levitating/flying guys. And Jirachi is nice in 3rd gen, cause Iron Head doesn't exist. EDIT : I had pro Magneton counter, too. It is called Magneton. LOL
This. I cannot see how you are thinking that Magneton and Dugtrio are worthy of being banned. Wobbuffet is the other trapper, so we'll use him as an example. He prevents ALL Pokemon from being switched out, and he can KO them, possibly give a teammate the ability to set up, and do that multiple times. Neither Magneton nor Dugtrio have the bulk to take many hits... hell, Dugtrio can barely take one hit. They are usually only used on a team to get rid of one or two certain Pokemon. You use one of them, you've only got 5 Pokemon with which to make an actual strategy. Use both and you have 4. That's a lot harder to do than it is in DPP, where many teams throw away their lead after they've set up Stealth Rock, because of the many more Pokemon with better typings and stats that are available. ADV is definately a lot more skill based than DPP, and you need to remember that losing one Pokemon does not ruin a well built team. If a Magneton takes out a Skarmory, it has 5 other Pokemon that can easily stop it. If a Dugtrio revenge kills are Tyranitar or Jirachi, it gets locked onto a move that many Pokemon can set up on, or it will lack the power to face off against other Pokemon. How on earth can they be classed as Uber? Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is just frankly stupid. We will not be testing Magneton or Dugtrio officially, nor will we do so at all. Stop complaining. Change the subject.
And Oak forgets to hit Refresh before posting, just like I did. Jirachi is, frankly, disappointing. As a CM Sweeper, its only novelty is that it is part Steel type, but that just opens it up to SE Earthquake from the likes of DDtar. However, Celebi can be quite the nuisance, and I'd go so far as to say that it is the best Grass type in the original 386. With Swords Dance BP, Perishtrapping, CMsweep/passing and even subseeding available, you really have to scout this one. My favourite way of beating it was CB Flygon's HP Bug, or Dugtrio if the opportunity arose.
Yeah, I think Jirachi is really annoying and hard to beat, especially Reflect Mind versions. It can make a great sweeper/staller in any case. Celebi is less dangerous, because it doen't get any Grass STAB in RSE (Barring HP Grass) and has an awesome typing. But, since it has great bulk, it can take some hits easly. It's played a lot as Baton Passer (SD, CM), I must say.
Reflect/Psychic/CM/Wish set is blocked by Blissey/Metagross/Any Dark type, and by Skarmory + Screen. The SubCM set is THE problem