[Retired] Pikmin 2

Discussion in 'Theme Development' started by Trosh, Sep 27, 2012.

  1. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Here are what some people thought. In bold means that there was more agreement.
    Non revealing olimar should appear later.
    Pikmin should have evade chance and not complete immunity.
    Dweevil are too weak in small games
    Blowhogs are up
    BG/samurai reveal is too op.
    ---
    It keeps going back and forth whether blowhogs are powerful enough or not... I'll leave them as they are, given that the village gets weakened severely with the upcoming changes.
    Giving the Pikmin evade chance instead of complete immunity, especially with the good majority of the kills, seems unnecessary after this amount of games.

    BG getting reveal on the main prs is OP, and so is the non-revealing Olimar early on. Those changes are going to alter the balance heavily anyway, so the aforementioned complaints don't have to be listened to, at least not right now.
    And those sad little Dweevils need a buff. Badly. Time to rework the entire balance!

    I do find it odd nobody complained about the Bulbmin, they might be OP too and giving THEM an evadechance wouldn't be such a bad idea because of the sheer amount of roles they get to ignore.

    ---

    Bugs that were discovered.

    Game: The The President
    (15:46:39) ~Self~, the Blue Pikmin, has been lynched, and everyone watches its spirit rise to the sky...

    (15:50:12) The spirit of Man-At-Legs (Water) rises to the sky...
    (15:50:12) As he died, the Man-At-Legs woke up a teammate!
    (15:50:12) As he died, the Man-At-Legs woke up a teammate!

    ---
    "Game: The The President" really requires some context, so I'm not going to count that as a bug.
    For the first bug, I don't know how to fix it so I'll check out some other themes as a comparison, and for the second one, it's not a bug if there's three Men-at-Legs in the game. It's because daykills can't be shared through regular means... I'm going to remove the message to prevent this from happening in the future.

    Thanks for all the testing, I hope you guys enjoyed it!

    CHANGES TO BE MADE (a list for me, I put it here for my convenience):
    - Remove the startup-reveal for the bodyguard (DONE)
    - Rework the balance so that it takes longer for Olimar to not reveal. (DONE), not sure if 16+ (edit: 17+) players is enough though, needs moar testing
    - BUFF THE DWEEVILS DANG IT (DONE+IN PROGRESS), I made him appear more often and there's a change I've been waiting to do for a long time... I'm kind of glad the Dweevils are UP.
    - Remove the ondeathconvert message for the Men-At-Legs (DONE)
    - Change the Bulbmin and turn their ignores into evadechances? (DONE), I looked at it and decided not to do this for now, but I'll certainly keep it in mind if they prove to be OP in the future.
    - LOOK AT THE DWEEVILS AGAIN DANG IT (DONE), in larger games they now have their very unique extra role, the Titan Dweevil, whose idea seemed OP as hell to me when I thought of it for the first time!
    - Try to fix the first bug (DONE)

    The OP and pastebin will now be updated, enjoy!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  2. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    I was referring to the fact that the man-atl-legs message appeared twice.
     
  3. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Which is exactly why I removed it altogether, I don't see where this caused confusion...
     
  4. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Afaik, Pikmin hasn't been tested further, but the previous tests showed the Bulbmin were overpowered and the Titan Dweevil update only made them stronger. Therefore, I am unwillingly updating the theme. Bulbmin now evade all nightkills and poisons 70 percent of the time. This means targetting them with kills might still work, but it also means I lost the elemental gimmick for one group of bad guys. I'd rather have the version with the Bulbmin as it was, so I'll look at that and update the OP with two different versions of the theme, one with the evadeChance and one with the Bulbmin appearing less. I'm giving you guys something to choose here, so choose wisely.

    Edit: Both versions are up, and as you'd expect I'm leaning to the second version. Still, all for the sake of balance...
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2012
  5. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    I understand how you feel about the elemental balance as I am also very fond of the game. However sometimes you have to deviate a bit from the series in order to keep things balanced.
     
  6. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Which brings the question: Would the second version still be balanced? If that's balanced enough, the first one will go right into the trashcan, but that version solves the problem that made them overpowered, which will automatically mean balance... and balance is what it's all about. I'd appreciate it if everyone who sees this post looks at option two and decides whether the roleslist is changed enough to warrant at least some balance.

    tl;dr: HELP ME HELP PIKMIN (also balance)
     
  7. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    In roles 4, there is only a single dwarf bulbmin difference between the two. I don't think that will be enough of a difference to deop them.
     
  8. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    I thought I removed more... I'll take a look at it again because I really really really want to keep the elemental gimmick. Expect an update to the OP!

    EDIT: Yup, there was some more shaving I could do to their side, but keep in mind there is a Dwarf Bulbmin at the very end of the roleslist, aka 38 players, which I don't think we can even hope to reach. The relative difference is usually a lot larger than in a max game. I also made the second Dweevil appear earlier in roleslist 2, just an fyi. (version two, that is, but I could easily do the same for list one)
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012
  9. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    The Bulbmin side was decimated in the last few updates, so I feel like their side isn't OP anymore (not until it's tested further, I suppose), and I didn't get any commentary on that version so I think that's a justified point of view. I removed the version that was going to remove the elemental gimmick for them. The version that remains is the one where they are decimated in the roleslist. I also fixed a minor thing with "lynchmsg" being in the code twice.

    Still/again open for critique!
     
  10. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Guys, I find your lack of rates disturbing. This is in fact the theme you're looking for.
    (fancy reference? That can only mean I'm bumping!)
     
  11. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    You bump to quickly for my taste. But I will review anyway.

    I tried looking at both options and I have to say I like the first one. I don't know why I just like it better. It is going to be a while for you to decide which one I think so I can't really give you an approval or a reject since there is no definitive code.
     
  12. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    I bumped as late at night as I could, when it was on page two. The "bumps" before that were updates.

    I've already removed the first version, does that mean you looked at the original code and the last version?
    Because I had three versions of the code, the original (to measure progress), and version 1 and 2 of the same update. I already decided on version two, as I told everyone two posts ago:

    So it's really not going to take me a while to decide, the decision has already been made. It's all about spotting flaws for me to update the code. Of course there's no definitive code, everything and anything may be updated, but there's still a version to be reviewed and accepted/rejected/edited right there.

    Thanks for taking a look!
     
  13. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I don't know how but I completely read over that part.

    Why aren't there any roles in the villageCan'tLoseRoles? That is in the pastebin.
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2012
  14. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    As I learned on page 1, it's totally unnecessary to keep it in, but it doesn't hurt the theme either (I thought it was a necessary part when I first coded the theme) so that's why I didn't remove it.
     
  15. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    But you have a village so why not use it? As of right now at a 2v2 situation village always loses if the opposing team has a killer. I think that is right at least.
     
  16. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    That's a valid point. I am going to edit the OP right now with a roleslist that uses villageCantLoseRoles.
     
  17. Oh So Shoddy

    Oh So Shoddy Devil's Advocate

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    Trosh you are an.... eccentric fellow. But in a good way, I think. As for your theme, it too is eccentric. And in a very good way. I loved the original premise and it's fortunate that you didn't have to deviate too much from that idea for the sake of balance.

    I've grown tired of seeing skins of other themes and I think you did a good job making this one unique, simply by adding the elemental aspect. I haven't gotten a chance to test the theme along with the other QC but I'll try to do that as soon as possible so I can make a final decision. I'm definitely leaning towards approval though.

    Excellent job on providing detail. Your confidence is welcomed but I think some people are detecting a tone of arrogance. Don't worry, no response is required. And barring updates or commentary from others, there's no need to bump further, I've just done so for you.
     
  18. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Looking through your theme I couldn't find any grammatic mistakes annd no serious imbalance either. Loving what you've done to make the theme unique, I look forward to it being approved.
     
  19. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Witht he latest summary updates, we can expect to have shorter and more informative summaries, or none at all. I'd like to be prepared for both. Right now the text is:

    That's neither short nor informative, so I wanted to update it to this:

    Which, while being more informative, made it longer too.
    Skipping all the bad guys left me with:


    Would this be enough information for the summary? Please leave your opinion!
     
  20. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Of the 3 you suggested #1 is my favorite, and it's not horribly long either :o
     
  21. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    I think I now have enough time between this post and my last one. TSO, thanks for the reply! I'll keep it like this for now, but the mods know there to find me if it needs a change, I have them ready. Now for even more waiting...
     
  22. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I think you are missing the hax for Louie in the first Yellow Pikmin or forgot to take it out of the second Yellow one.
    Hocotate Spaceship says it gets reveal on Olimar but that isn't in the code.
    InitialRecharge for Whistle needs to be 2 because 1 doesn't do anything if I remember correctly.
    Volitile Dweevil gives off the impression it should die the next night but that isn't in the code anywhere. I think you meant to give them an initialPoison condition.

    I still feel it is missing something I just can't put my finger on it.
    Decline [1]
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  23. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Now this just purely pisses me off, thank you very much. On this thread at least you never even gave me a single bit of useful cricicism, most of it was vague, often was it irrellevant and sometimes blatantly wrong. Now I feel like you're just declining just so you have something to say about this theme, a quick glance at it because I was making a passive-agressive note in the channel. This latest post is no different. If you don't have any notable criticism, then don't give it. Think it over for crying out loud, there's no need to rush!

    I know you are able to give great criticism because you've had a lot of time to practice (you are one of if not the most active QC member out there, I have to give props there) but I only see it in other threads. Well, there's the VillageCantLoseRoles but that's more of a nitpick, really. What extra factor does this need? Original take on Kuja? Check. Entirely new take on the mafia killing concept? Check. Totally original roles like the Volatile Dweevil, Captain Louie, the President and heck, even the Puffy Blowhog as a bad exposer? Checked so often it broke my pen! I don't think you even so much as glanced at the code because the theme IS called Pikmin!

    This probably came across a lot harsher than I meant to (so far I've tried to keep up a welcoming attitude, saying thanks to pretty much everyone), I've been watching a bit too much Zero Punctuation lately. The point is, give me actual criticism or just leave me alone, or (this will sound crazy) leave an approve because there's no more notable flaws!

    EDIT: I didn't see any edits even though I checked back, so this reply is kind of late. I still feel it's bad to say it's missing something while you don't know what's missing, but I'll look at the points you brought up. When you do realise what 'it' is, please let me know so I can alter it. A decline remains harsh though. I do need to thank you for being the only QC in a long time to give criticism on the theme. Weeks and weeks are passing, so I do appreciate the effort.
    EDIT1: The Spaceship getting reveal on Olimar was removed after playtesting, so I removed that from the code. Still doubt if it needed to be removed in the first place (Ike is acceptable, dang it) but it's gone now so everything is congruent. Looking at the other complaints as I speak/type.
    EDIT2: InitialRecharge fixed.
    EDIT3: Yellow2 getting hax on Louie seemed kind of redundant, so I thought I removed that. Instead, I removed the hax from Yellow1! My bad, fixed.
    EDIT4: InitialPoison set.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  24. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    hi

    I'm bumping this because I actually read through it for the first time today (!) and it actually looks rather interesting. Trosh, which version are you leaning toward working with more, six or seven?
     
  25. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Checked so often it broke my pen, lmfao.
     
  26. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Glad to see a new person taking a peek at this theme (QC should do that more often imo). I think I didn't make it clear enough, so here's an explanation of my Version system:
    I show the original version so people know where the theme came from. I then have enough room for two more version, one the latest and current (seven) and one the version that's chronologically the one before that. Version six is basically there for a comparison (so people know the latest updates).

    Tl;dr: It's version seven. (Which is basically version six with a VillageCantLoseRoles implemented although I find it hard to believe the village needs more buffs)

    Still, it should be irrelevant as version eight (which is the current version with an altered, less comedic summary and the alterations BeastCharizard asked for) is done and uploaded.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  27. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    We need the link on the OP, if we need to test the theme.

    EDIT: didn't see it, sorry.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2012
  28. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    But it is...? Under the "The Theme" hide tag. It's the raw link too.
     
  29. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    After the re-test, I guess it still needs some more balance. We have suggested you some things, and, since you are going to update it till it is properly balanced, I guess it is fine for me to approve [1] it.
     
  30. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Today has been a very eventful day for Pikmin. That sort of thing hasn't happened for weeks now, and it became even better with some playtesting. I was able to draw the following conclusions:

    1 There were a lot of tiny updates to make (which is now a new post. Two updates in such a short period of time? Awesome!)
    2 Balance is still hard to determine.

    Still, there's an entirely new, refurbished version of Pikmin waiting for a glance!

    EDIT: Li Q Assir, you ninja. Thanks for the approve!
    EDIT2: Replies: 69. Juuuuust saying.
     
  31. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    Cool theme, I'm really liking it so far.

    From reading the theme summary my first thoughts were, "oh God there are way too many sides." However, it seems from playtesting that this is not an issue at all; rather the problem is balancing the sides more than anything else! My views (note that I have not playtested this theme) is that the Bulbmin family is too weak. They don't have anything that allows them to take control of the game. I also dislike giving mafia ++ votes. For me, at least, it defeats the purpose of having a village since the village is supposed to have a majority. Other than that, it's hard for me to really find anything wrong with the theme; at this point I think there is nothing I can really say that will help this theme without further testing.

    I won't go ahead and approve just yet, I would like to see/play in some test games before making my decision.
     
  32. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    So far, we're only been able to test small-ish games, but the Mature Bulbmin was pretty powerful there, a real threat. Those +2 votes also come in handy even if it 'defeats the concept' a little bit. I guess I had better not bring up the Kujamayor then...
    Glad you liked this theme so far!
     
  33. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    I want to move this along and I believe that any further mistakes and/or gameplay issues will be minor enough that a quick update is all that will be needed. At this point there are only small things that need fixing so I will approve this

    Approved (2)

    Good stuff!
     
  34. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    I am more surprised by the fact that anyone even bothered to post in this thread. It's usually (no exception right now, guys) a two week wait in between posts since I was told not to bump. Thanks so much for the approval and the support! I'm really wishing for a miracle to occur so we get to play this theme live before the world ends at the- wait, that Mayan calendar thing has already occurred? Time sure flies, guise.
     
  35. Sky Sentinel

    Sky Sentinel You see?

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    so like why isn't this approved yet
     
  36. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Short version: lack of effort.

    Long version: my bad reputation as a mafia player and the sheer amount of themes leads to people reviewing themes that are already posted in (approvals usually come by the bandwagon) and the amount of posts the thread currently has also discourages people to look again. In addition, there's people who said they would look at it again and then flat-out didn't and ignored it because of the star that now indicates they've posted in the thread. Also, lack of effort.
     
  37. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    You don't have that bad a reputation, brother.
     
  38. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    going through some backlog and realized I forgot about this, soz

    Yeah, I'm basically gonna just parrot Li and say that balance needs to be worked on, but honestly the theme itself is quite inventive and would be an excellent addition to the channel.

    Approved [3]
     
  39. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    Tried to refrain from bumping the thread, so I'll start this post off by saying: Thanks, Meow!

    This theme is jack daniels closer to being accepted but there is some newsworthy... news. There was a large game of Pikmin played on PO2, and it was awesome!
    ...except everyone in the village sucked. I was the double BG spaceship who didnt successfully protect anyone before dying #2 while the village randed off it's prs (Olimar #1) because it wasn't connected. I think the Purple Pikmin is hard to counterclaim so that might be the most valuable role in future connecting. Also, Louie killed the Mature Bulbmin #1; what are the odds...
    The Bulborbs ended up pwning in comparison and won the game. It certainly was fun, especially during the days, and seemed to be balanced!
     
  40. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    Maaan, if I only had the code this sure would be confusing. You did a great summary, very objective yet thorough. I just wish I could have implemented elemental immunities in a theme before anyone else, but it seems I couldn't, haha. For the ceremoniality, I have to mention that this may be confusing until people get used to the theme. That apart, I will also approve [4] and look forward into playing it. Nice work!