The problems I have with Mafia and Mafia review.

Discussion in 'Mafia' started by Mr.Anonymous, Sep 23, 2012.

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  1. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    MeowMix is a good UU player is totally unrelated to this. As is him "playing Forum Mafia lots." I do that. Plenty of people do it. Archerknight does it.

    Irma is a coder and an MA. You are a Mod and MA. CM is an Owner. Tesla and Zzyzx are coders. Oak is an owner. Katia is an MA. Noticing a trend yet?
    I don't mean to be offensive, but I have never, ever seen Professor Oak play Mafia, or CM. And seeing as I am the same timezone as them...
    EDIT: They're not reviewers. I suck hard.
    And respected coders by the community ARE in. Veterans aren't. Shiny Rayquaza? No. Black Mage? No. waehofen? No. Kogent? No. Me? No. Cake? No.
    I do not even know who Samphire is.
    This isn't meant to attack specific people. Heck, I think Tesla is an excellent reviewer. But I don't think it was done fairly because they were handpicked. =/
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  2. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Not that important, but I'm not a QC member, just saying!
    And on a side note, I normally play under alts.[/HIDE]
     
  3. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    You aren't? ._.
    Well, while this makes me look stupid, apologies Oak/CM... :[
     
  4. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    People complaining about the QC members. How would you propose that we FAIRLY choose who gets to review the themes? We can't just give everyone a vote because then it would a popularity contest and themes would get through before they were ready. I feel the people who are the QCers are doing a great job. It probably has to be boring commenting the same thing on every thread like: To many kills, read your helps to make sure they are accurate, balance the roles list. Those are the main problems pointed out to me and what I am normally finding.
     
  5. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    So you think it is 100% fair that the whole group bar 1 or 2 is made up of auth and coders?
     
  6. Shiny Rayquaza

    Shiny Rayquaza Your nightmare!

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    There are some themes which doesn't even get rewieved, even after being on for 2 weeks.
     
  7. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I used to have one of those themes that didn't get reviewed. Heck, I submitted the second theme and I believe I only have 1 Reject. Most of the posts are either me or some non-QC person.

    I don't know how the people for QC were chosen so I can only believe that they are there for a reason. I am assuming that each person was chosen for a reason that makes them qualified. Also, if they are in charge of everything else why shouldn't they be in charge of this? I know mafia is for the people and stuff but there still has to be leaders to weed out the bad things. Every country in the world has leaders to tell them what they can and can't do and what is right and what is wrong. Why should this be any different? They were not voted into power like a democracy but they are still the power and we have no choice but to listen or leave.

    Fair is also a relative term. Who gets to decide what is fair and what isn't fair? What i think is fair you could think is unfair. I think it is unfair that many people break rules on the channel but don't get punished but the punishment is not up to me and that is not what this thread is about. It is all in the eye of the person responding. I am but a single person and if my opinion matters or not has yet to be determined.
     
  8. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    It's hard for me to take this post seriously.
    You can believe whatever you want, that doesn't make it true or false, but you dont give any actual reasoning as to WHY they are qualified. And they are NOT in charge of everything else. You can only compare actual governments with moderators on a forum to a small degree. The fact that they weren't voted for gives them less (yet they still retain) legitimacy. As long as they do their job, that's fine, but (comparison! like real governments), they have to be addressed with mistakes, flaws and worries too.

    Fair being a relative term doesnt mean our relative is bad, and neither does yours, but using such vague statements to gain an advantage in a very practical discussion isn't the way to go. Breaking the rules on the channel is also not really too relevant to the discussion either.

    Let's get this straight once and for all, because several posts seem to be confused by this:

    Several people feel like there have been problems that arose by the implementation of the new system. QC's (NOT MA's, there's a difference) are being addressed for seemingly being biased (a claim I partially support), being slow (which isn't even arguable, what's arguable is whether slow=bad), didn't review according to their guidelines (which, again, isn't really arguable, the point to be made here is how frequent it is), and that the control team is not a fair representation of mafia players (which is up to debate). Let's focus on that, and if all has been said on the subject (according to me, we're almost, if not already, at that point), we can get to the actual changes, if enough people think those are needed/wanted.
     
  9. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    Well, I saw my name, so that means I have to post!
    w o w

    So first of all the reason why I'm not one of the QC people is all me and none them. My approach to new themes in general is very critical; when I look at a thread, if I'm not presented with the sort of thought process I think leads to good themes (ie starting with an original idea about how the theme should play, picking roles to advance that game mechanic, some reasonable analysis of the balance, flavor coming in at some point in the process because the author likes that topic or whatever but it's not obscure/confusing) then I'm probably more likely than not to view it in a bad light already. If that's not "bias" I don't know what is, although not toward authors exactly. But I view myself like that English teacher you've probably had at some point (or will have, or maybe should have) who hands back a paper and tells you that after the first paragraph he had no motivation to read the rest. Now imagine that English teacher actually does have some subtle bias that he doesn't even realize and you get someone to whom you probably don't want to submit your next paper.

    Also, I haven't even written a single casual review iirc; do you really want me to sit around on a QC team and not do any work?
    I'm not going to name any names but as far as the rest of the people you mentioned...well, not all, but some of them would probably not be any more cut out for the job due to reasons I think you can figure out. Or maybe all lol

    (Oh and Samphire is a TA, and maybe other things, who is cool.)

    Not to speak for the "official" view here since really only a couple owners, Steel, and BebbZ can do that, but if you think about it it makes sense that the QC team would basically start off as the MA team, plus or minus a couple people with exceptional enthusiasm or lack thereof. After all, the old review process was run by MAs, and it only makes sense that you would use the same people immediately after updating the system as before, just for convenience's sake. The two groups are clearly more distinct now, but you can't expect that two weeks later it would be like two completely separate bodies.

    Again not to blah blah blah blah, but PO functions like a fairly typical site in that positions of power are not elected by the users at large. It's not true for server auth, forum auth, MA, TA, MU, Wiki positions, really anything at all except for team captains in some forum tournaments I guess. I'm not really sure where you're going with the "handpicked" argument because that's how every part of the site works. Generally higher levels of authority pick people they think are the most qualified for lower levels of authority in the typical sort of forum bureaucracy.

    ---

    Not to anyone in particular, but I think I've seen a problematic attitude in certain parts of this thread; it looks like nobody wants their theme rejected flat-out because it's highly derivative of another theme and wouldn't add much to the channel, but nobody wants their theme thread not to be posted in. So if you do post something like that and you do have that attitude, you'll be upset with the results no matter what.
     
  10. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I've been playing Mafia since before it was even added on the PO server, by playing using the script it is based on NetBattle. Even then, I played Mafia for a long time with my main name or some version of it. Most recently, I've been playing under alts, as people tend to target me a lot nowadays.

    Finally, I am a Mafia Reviewer.

    Just wanted to throw that out there lol


    However, this whole "I'M NOT A REVIEWER BUT THEY ARE, WHAT THE HELL???" attitude is exactly why you aren't a Mafia Reviewer.
     
  11. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    Honestly, this thread has turned into "I didn't get QC so I'm going bitch and moan about bias and how the system is terrible and blah blah blah." If you think the process if going too slow do something about it; review themes on the second and third page. If you care enough to whine about it, than I'm sure anyone can manage to review a couple of themes on the latter pages. If you're theme isn't being reviewed then go bug someone about it. PM the QC members, talk to them and bug them constantly about reviewing your theme. If you come to the point where nobody is reviewing your theme you may want to go check your theme, as there's probably a good reason why nobody is posting (hint: maybe your theme isn't very good and needs to be reworked.)

    There is no "bias" involved. People are more likely to want to help / post on themes that show a lot of potential but may need slight tweaking. Ever looked at a RMT forum? The teams that get rated the most are usually good teams that only need slight fixes. Presentation is key; nobody wants to spend hours on end looking through code trying to figure out the point of the theme. Make it clear, add comments on why you did certain things. You can even add what your concerns are if you feel like it!

    If you don't like who is on the QC team; suck it up. Deal with it. Don't give silly exuses on why they are biased. If we want to bring out the "QC team does not represent the mafia community," card then what do you propose? People who were selected for QC were picked because they know their shit. That's why they are also MAs, auth, whatever. If you think you belong on QC, then go out and review themes. You will be noticed. I might as well say that a bunch of forum mafia players should be QC because "they aren't represented in the QC list." What???? That doesn't make sense. The point of QC is that the people who are most knowledgeable about mafia accept / reject themes because they know what comprises a "good" theme and a "bad." Experience does not and should not make you an auto QC pick.

    Final point: Insulting QC members / the process / whoever is in the wrong here is generally not a good way to gain support. Support your argument with reasoning instead of bullshit conspiracy theories that the MAs are "out to ruin mafia." You will not and should not gain any support by in general being offensive.

    No disrespect meant towards anyone, I'm just trying to put across my feelings. Call me out if you think I said something that's not true. I might very well have made a mistake.
     
  12. BebbZ

    BebbZ Member

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    I'd just like to put it out there that I'm very approachable on the server and by forum PM. If you want to discuss selection policy of QC members, have a problem with particular ones, or feel someone has made significant and relevant contributions in the Mafia Review forum and deserves QC, hit me up. I'd love to hear people's suggestions in a civilised discussion, rather than raving about it here.

    I'm not saying I'll agree with you if you do, but my PM window is always open.
     
  13. Shiny Rayquaza

    Shiny Rayquaza Your nightmare!

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    QC Members is supposed to look at a theme and say approved/reject. If they say reject, they has to come up with a reason to why they mean so. Nevertless any QC member whom got some spare time should really consider taking a look at ALL those themes which haven't gotten a single approve/reject.

    Also LI. Q Assir, I would like to hear which QC Member was so rude to you.
     
  14. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    I never said OMG I WANT TO BE A REVIEWER !111!!11! I disagree with the system and how it is being done at the moment eg. imo there are people who should be on it who aren't, who I see more on the Mafia Channel, than others. My problem with this is more than half of themes regularly played by players who liked them are binned. Gone. Dead. Not being played anymore. I just "connect the PR's theme" it's being called a killfest and rejected. That's why I was questioning the people on it, as I think all their views are too similar.

    "Thepoint of QC is that the people who are most knowledgeable about mafia accept / reject themes because they know what comprises a "good" theme and a "bad." Experience does not and should not make you an auto QC pick." ~Jalmont

    Why would experience not make you more knowledgable? I just don't see it.

    PS. I appreciate I set myself up for attacks as including myself as a veteran - sorry about that.
    And on me being on the QC team, I actually think people wouldn't like me on it, as I can be exceptionally irritable.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  15. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    How was the QC team picked anyway?
     
  16. Shiny Rayquaza

    Shiny Rayquaza Your nightmare!

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    After what i can read, by experience ( I think)
     
  17. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    We selected people we knew were capable. Any MA who wants to be QC can be - this is why waehofen isn't, as he has little interest in it.
     
  18. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    This doesn't stop non-QC people from bumping old threads. Sounds to me like people are making excuses why only QC members actually happen to review themes and actually put a lot of thought into reviewing.

    Experience neither doesn't necessarily make you good. I can practice swimming all my life and still never make the Olympics. The teams were picked for a reason; Steel and Bebbz know what they are doing.
     
  19. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    I'll talk to Steel first. If he sees no problem on me telling you or whoever PMs me, I'll tell. But I think this wouldn't be a nice thing to reveal that person name now and here.
     
  20. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    This is the kind of review I think only harms Mafia. People need to take off the nostalgia goggles and look at each theme individually, as if they were just added.

    For example: Super Mario Bros. is one of the greatest games of all time, as it essentially kickstarted the home console market, is a fun game to play, and has a few secrets in it as well. However, compared to Super Mario Galaxy 2, it has poor graphics, relatively sloppy controls, it's far too short - only 32 levels - and it doesn't have Yoshi!

    That's like saying E.T. on the Atari was a good game because it's hella old, despite it being one of the worst video games of all time (opinion of both professional reviewers and consumers alike).

    History and nostalgia are the only 2 reasons people prefer some older things to newer things, especially when one is far superior to the other.


    People need to stop comparing themes to other themes. We should be judging each individual theme as its own entity, and judging the gameplay, balance and fun of the game itself instead of comparing it to one of the other themes, or saying it is good because it has been there for a long time.
     
  21. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    I try to refrain from using reject and instead offer critiques. I mostly use reject when a theme needs a lot of work. As for FF. FF isn't perfect, but it is a good theme and was approved quickly. While on yours there has been a lot of changes and I see you have some plans for some more changes. So I want to wait to see those changes before I give it a full review. Hence the higher post count and lack of rejects/approvals.

    As for speed. Yes it is slow. I am not going to deny that. However you have to remember, we have a LOT of themes to look at. Also we are slow to approve/reject a theme because we want to help improve them when it is possible. The vast majority of my posts in Mafia review are not to reject or approve. Instead the majority offer mistakes I noticed and critiques. I am sure you guys would prefer it that way. Personally I have also been trying to pay more attention to themes with fewer posts.

    One more thing you guys need to remember. This version of mafia review is new. Give it some time for us to fine tune it. There has already been some ideas to help improve the process in the channel staff forum.

    Lastly feel free to pm me about your theme. I don't bite! *hides dragon teeth from dragon avatar* JK But serious, feel 100% free to pm me about your theme and ask me to review it. I have been pmed twice and both times I proceeded to post on said theme.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  22. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I can say that is true since I am one of the people to PM them. They are very helpful too so I would suggest anyone PMing them.
     
  23. Sandusky

    Sandusky My body is ready!

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    I find the whole reviewing thing a bunch of bullshit.
     
  24. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    Why?
     
  25. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    csb

    you seem like a very upset fellow, care to tell us why?
     
  26. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    That's pretty much the message of this thread for those who haven't realized yet.
     
  27. Altaria

    Altaria (':

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  28. Shiny Rayquaza

    Shiny Rayquaza Your nightmare!

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    Perhaps the long waiting and some themes getting denied?
     
  29. Sandusky

    Sandusky My body is ready!

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    The themes that are posted by coders who had a really sucessful theme, their themes get passed, but when someone new does it, the reply from everyone is usually, OMG THIS SUKS!!1!!1!!1 DENIED!
     
  30. Shiny Rayquaza

    Shiny Rayquaza Your nightmare!

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    Li.Q.Assir and Cat Fart made new themes, and both of them got approved. You point is invalid.
     
  31. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    This is why Castle was accepted.

    This is why Space Invaders, Ocean, Garden, and Pixar were all declined.

    Oh wait.
     
  32. Sandusky

    Sandusky My body is ready!

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    They just got lucky...
     
  33. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    I'm not sure if you're serious - I hope you aren't - but I'd prefer you make legitimate points rather than shrill whining.
     
  34. Narshen

    Narshen Dragon Lord

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  35. Nainil

    Nainil The International of PO

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    BAHAHAHAHA LOL OKAY. Code Lyoko doesn't seem to have a chance in hell of being passed.

    As for new themes, we base them on originality. We don't want 25 copies of Default in Mafia now, do we?
     
  36. Sandusky

    Sandusky My body is ready!

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    True. But still, it puts too much pressure on the new people to scripting, who won't have a snowball's chance in hell of having their theme passed.

    EDIT: Since alot of the new scripters in mafia make their first theme usually off of another theme, they play similar and then turn into a reskin of a previous theme, which makes it rejected.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  37. waehofen

    waehofen Peace, love, & understanding

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    I don't understand.

    You made a point, several posters provided several counterexamples, and you found another explanation for the phenomena in question. What is the problem?

    If people who have never written a lot of code write what is essentially a reskin as their first exercise, yeah, it's going to get rejected (I hope). I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong. A lot of famous artists started out as students copying old masters' paintings for practice, and I bet the same thing happens with covering in music. That sort of thing is helpful but you have to use it to develop skills, not try to pass it off as your original work.
     
  38. Nainil

    Nainil The International of PO

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    So let them make an original theme??????

    Easy as that! They don't need to completely use one theme's roles in their own. There's plenty of room for originality.
     
  39. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    I have never made a theme, yet I think I have a fairly original idea if I can ever get someone to code it for me. *can't code her way out of a paper bag*
     
  40. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    Do you need to write a novel to know that a novel is good? No, you need experience in reading.

    It's similar with coding Mafia themes. If you play Mafia, have great analytical skills, and know what a good theme, you should make good posts in review and try for QC.
     
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