The problems I have with Mafia and Mafia review.

Discussion in 'Mafia' started by Mr.Anonymous, Sep 23, 2012.

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  1. Elements

    Elements BOOMER SOONER Forum Moderator Server Staff Forum Moderator Server Staff

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    You guys assume that just because a theme gets approved really fast that there is bias involved. FF is a pretty popular theme among many of the mafia users and many Mafia Admins and even staff comment on how they think it is unique and that the overall system is very well thought out. In my opinion, there doesn't have to be much "reviewing" going on just for the sake of reviewing. There are some themes that don't really need too many important decisions. I just think this whole comparing FF to other themes shows a little bias on the thememakers who have yet to get their themes approved. But hey that's just my opinion. However, this back and forth between how FF got auto accepted and other themes didn't will not help improve Mafia Review.

    The Mafia Leaders and the QC are aware of the problem already now.
     
  2. Mr.Anonymous

    Mr.Anonymous Member

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    Well If you want my opinion, it kind of does in a way, it helps because it shows that ALL themes should be reviewed the SAME way regardless of status/popularity.
     
  3. Elements

    Elements BOOMER SOONER Forum Moderator Server Staff Forum Moderator Server Staff

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    I understand that, but there is no need to constantly bring it up. There will be some themes that review will be pretty scarce if it is recognized as one of the greater themes on the channel. This is just fact. People will not review for the sake of making sure that review has been made if they 100% believe it should be accepted.
     
  4. Mr.Anonymous

    Mr.Anonymous Member

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    I'm glad you understand. That in my eyes just seems biased. But that's just me.
     
  5. DatXFire

    DatXFire Never gonna use an avatar

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    These posts are confusing me so much, when they clearly contradict Crystal Moogle's original post on the New Mafia Forum and the New Review System.. CM states that "I am hoping through this, theme makers can get constructive feedback about their themes and be able to improve them constantly and hopefully the quality of the themes will rise by a lot.". If we can give feedback on themes before they're finished, wouldn't that save time when the theme is actually submitted for review since the problems would have been previously ironed out? QC members wouldn't necessarily have to give feedback, but it would be useful to themers imho.
     
  6. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~ Administrator Administrator

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    Not really, sarcasm by itself is a poor man's strawman, there's no point given there at all
    Nowhere in that thread does it state that there's nothing wrong with FF, in fact I see some posts even showing some flaws of it or improvements that could be given to it. Just because the theme was approved quickly, does not mean anyone thinks it was perfect. If you believe there are flaws with the theme, then feel free to post them in the thread; assuming I haven't messed something up again, you should be able to post there. They remain unlocked and available for posting for a reason; so they can be still given feedback even after approval. If you have problems, post it.

    Now the biggest problem I see with this thread, is that people seem to assume FF is the one thread that's been accepted and keep trying to use that in their arguments. I would strongly suggest you actually look at the list of approved themes and realise they are actually quite diverse. Space Invaders for instance, is quite a basic theme that's not perfect, yet it managed to get through fine. Perhaps your theme just simply isn't as good as you thought it was, I'm not trying to attack anyone here, this addresses everyone, but if your theme isn't getting approvals, did you not think there might be a reason behind it? I see two main things that could be going on. It's either A, you're getting the feedback, but choosing to ignore it for whatever reason, I hope that's not the case with anyone, but if it is, well tough, if you refuse to listen to any advice given to you, then that's your problem. Or B, perhaps you're not getting the feedback, if this is the case, then this is a problem with the Mafia Review at the moment, themes need to be given feedback, otherwise they'll just lie there at the bottom of the pile, never been given attention.

    If lack of feedback is the issue here, then I hope it can be addressed quickly, but if it's still not helping, trying PM-ing one of the QC members and seeing it that helps. Just remember, they are people too, if you're pestering people constantly, then yeah, they're likely to ignore you. Also remember the whole manner in which you PM them, if you're somewhat demanding in you're PM, then don't expect anything soon, try not asking for Approvals either, try asking for feedback instead, asking for an approval makes it seem like you think your theme is ready to be accepted, even if 5 people have already accepted, that one person may think differently. Lastly, now this may just be me, but I think where you PM is a factor too. If I get PM'd through the server, I feel as if there's a sense of urgency about it and I'll tend to somewhat rush through whatever it is, because I feel as if they are sitting there waiting for me, with forum PMs, I feel much more relaxed and willing to take my time over something because that whole urgency is suddenly gone.

    Now I think this thread did bring up some good points that should be looked into fairly soon-ish, but some of the posting has been dreadful here. TUO, I suggest you refrain from posting here unless you actually bring up somewhat decent points, Mr Anon, you have brought up some good points with this thread, but your last couple of posts have dropped somewhat in quality, I would suggest you try keeping to valid points so your argument is clear. I'm not trying to take sides here, since I'm not actually part of the QC and I actually have my own theme in waiting(!), but I'm trying to make sure the thread stays somewhat civil and the points being brought forward are valid.

    I probably missed somethings out, but it's late here and I'm ill so sorry!
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  7. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I see nothing wrong with the review process honestly. Personally, all of my themes have been reviewed and people are specific on what they did and did not like. I believe even Steel said more than reject. Granted I am still scared to see Steel's name on any of my threads but that isn't the point.

    Someone said FF wasn't the first theme to be submitted but was first to be accepted. If the second theme submitted would have been accepted then it would probably not ever be played because it straight up sucked at that point. Why am I allowed to say this you ask? Because I submitted the second theme for review. My theme is much better now.

    As for not getting reviewed fast enough. There are 3 pages of themes and the QC people are just humans and they have lives. I wait 3 or 4 days and then bump my thread. While I want my themes to be accepted I understand that it takes time. For the focusing on 1 or 2 threads at a time I don't see this as a good idea because those themes will not have time to make actual improvements until it is rejected. I think we should keep it how it is now. Review what you feel like reviewing and if people actually care about their theme they will bump it or bring it to a QC members attention.

    From my experience the QC members are really nice and all they want to do is help to better the themes. I honestly feel like when they are reviewing they are trying to better the mafia channel.

    The End.
     
  8. Mr.Anonymous

    Mr.Anonymous Member

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    I posted my Space theme on September 12th, 2012 12:27 and didn't get reply so I bumped it on September 13th, 2012 10:18 and I didn't get a post on it until you posted at September 13th, 2012 11:46
    Likewise with my Ozma theme, I posted that on September 12th, 2012 12:02 and Steel didn't reply until September 13th, 2012 12:31.
     
  9. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I've mentioned this in staff topics / staff server channels a few times, and I'll air my thoughts here now as well.

    I'd personally be happy with people posting complete themes and then asking for approval. That is what happens now. In this, themes with a good idea to them should get reviewed properly and have it formed into a good theme that people will enjoy. That way, we get another good theme to play in the Mafia Channel.

    If people are posting largely incomplete themes or other items, then it will be immediately rejected without attempts to help it out. There are many places and people that can help with fixing a theme - Mafia Tutoring houses a lot of knowledgable users, for example - before it comes under review.



    Anyway, there are notable problems with Mafia Review, and they are currently being worked on.
     
  10. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    I have on numerous occasion actually look at someones code and given them suggestions on what to do before they even posted a theme up for review. If you just want feedback then ask someone to look at it. I was just asked on the mafia channel to look at it. If someone asks for their theme to be looked at, i just look at it.

    To anon,
    I actually try to go back to the other pages and look for themes that have almost no attention given to them and then post my opinion so that the QC members might post in it. I want all themes to be reviewed so that we have more things on the channel to be played. I would hope that if this happens to one of my themes and I don't notice that someone would be kind enough to do the same. I am not gonna lie though, I ask non-QC people to go comment on my threads if I don't feel like bumping it myself. Maybe try that.
     
  11. DatXFire

    DatXFire Never gonna use an avatar

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    I wasn't suggesting that people post incomplete themes for approval, merely posting them to get feedback from the QC and other members to help with the direction of the theme. Posting a largely incomplete theme to get approved would be extremely silly and just show ignorance in general. I was suggesting the ability for people to post an incomplete theme to get feedback, advice, and other things as Mr. Anon had done for one of his themes, before Steel had locked his thread.
     
  12. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    What would explain the difference on the times took by FF and Windows to be approved? Windows had minor changes that (I think that) weren't the differential for it to wait to be approved or at least getting a feedback (look at the updates on the thread - updates 3 to 6 happened after it getting released). And they both were submitted to be reviewed with a difference of 2 hours. I just took FF as an example, you can compare it to any other approved theme: some of them were recieving feedback and were being fixed simultaneously, while others got their approvals without the need to be major changed. Windows was an exception: many other themes are forgotten with a couple of approvals/rejections.

    Yes. Probably it was the issue and it'd explain what I just asked. (If someone wants, make a better explanation.) And the solution for this problem is explained there - or at least it was basically what I did for it to get reviews. But I think it shouldn't had been necessary, if everything were working properly.
     
  13. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    Here to add that BebbZ and I have been trying to revive the #Project Mafia channel which turned into a random private chat instead of a place to discuss Mafia theming/developing and suggestions on those things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  14. Altaria

    Altaria (':

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    Everything else I've wanted to say has been, well, said. But I'd just like to add it's better that players instead of just MAs or whatever with more 'experience' get to review because they are the ones enjoying the game, the channel, the themes, and their feedback is what is most important. If you sell a product on the market and your boss gives it the OK but your costumers don't like it's useless, too.

    There's no point getting all enraged about everything either.
     
  15. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    If the players had the power then how would that work? People could just go ask other players to vote for their theme or something like that. Also, the theme reviewing process could be a popularity contest. There has to be some sort of order in the process. I think the players do have a say by stating their opinions. If these opinions are taken into consideration I have no clue about that.
     
  16. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    @ Yuna
    I suggested it here when I said:
    But this idea was rejected (by one person, but still rejected) :x
    I really don't think it's a bad idea (there are some pros and cons, already pointed), but the rule makers should approve/reject this thought.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2012
  17. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    It's not necessary to give power to all users, it would be fine if our voices were not simply ignored regarding some issues.
    Also, we still have some relevancy to the Review process, as any user can check a theme in Mafia Review, post commentaries and "influence" the official reviewers.
     
  18. SteelEdges

    SteelEdges The Poll Dancer

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    Why do you feel ignored? Can you state something specific?
     
  19. Vietpride

    Vietpride Member

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  20. Mr.Anonymous

    Mr.Anonymous Member

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    When I said :

    I intended it in NO WAY to be sarcastic, it was a serious post. I'm sorry for the confusion.
     
  21. Vietpride

    Vietpride Member

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    I know it was not sarcastic. I am just wondering what is your reason behind saying there is something wrong with FF. We all played FF, and we know how well balance it is. If there is bias then it because its basically the number 1 theme played before the theme clean out.
     
  22. Mr.Anonymous

    Mr.Anonymous Member

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    This might not be a good enough reason and it's probably just about personal preference, but I don't like how Kefka doesn't know Kuja right from the beginning and vice versa, I mean, Sure, it was made so that Kuja couldn't be killed, but I'm not going to spam /kill just to find Kuja also what happens if Kuja doesn't know Kefka, and Kuja votes out Kefka ?
     
  23. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    That is part of the fun of the FF theme in my opinion. I don't spam kill if I am Kefka i just kill who i want when i want and if i happen to get the you can't kill message it makes me happy.

    Concern:
    I am really worried that this thread is going to force the QCers to approve threads before they are actually ready or they are just going to rush through the threads. I want good feed back and for every theme to deserve to be on the channel.
    [/HIDE]
     
  24. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    Themes approved per day: 1.06

    There are plenty of themes with potential which have not been approved yet. Why?
     
  25. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    The themes are probably not good enough to go up on the channel yet. That is a reasonable assumption. Since this thread was put up I believe that 4 themes have been approved. Hence my concern in my last post.
     
  26. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    Hi all, due to my limitless narcissism I have the ability to sense when my name is being thrown around and would like to weigh in here.

    First of all, to whoever said that my UU QC/forum mafia experience doesn't carry over to server mafia and was probably implying I shouldn't be Mafia QC: fuck you.

    Now, Mr. Anonymous brings up some valid concerns; we all have some bias when it comes to certain people making themes. If I see that Rice or Deria or someone similar has made a theme, I'll probably more inclined to check it than if xRaNdoM669x has made a theme. However, this is only because I know these themers often put out interesting, unique, well balanced themes. To be completely honest, I've looked through almost every thread in Mafia Review but haven't really posted in many of them, mainly because a lot of them are the same tired formula with a new coat of paint. They're boilerplate; I could comment on how to fix balance and improve flavour and honestly there's nothing wrong with them as far as mafia themes go so I can't really reject them, but they aren't really special, which is personally what I'm looking for in a theme and so I won't really approve them either. Certain users such as the aforementioned ones have a history of creating such themes (Deria made FF for god's sake) and of course I might be a bit biased towards them, but only because I know that they can create the kinds of themes that I personally would like to see on the channel.

    About QC not commenting on themes and the speed at which things are reviewed: again, can't speak for the rest of QC, but if you want me to seriously look at a theme, bother the hell out of me on the server. Angel Flonne's been PMing me asking for a check on Garden for days and I'm more than happy to oblige since I like the looks of it. As for the speed, it's probably for the better that we're taking things slowly, as this gives us more time to looks at themes and ensure they're the best they can be before they can be put on the channel. People might be annoyed that there are only 16 or so themes on the channel right now, but I'd rather see 16 strong themes that are all cycled through relatively evenly than what we had before: upwards of 40 or 50, half of which were never even played and quickly faded into obscurity.
     
  27. Altaria

    Altaria (':

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    Of course they don't just plain vote in the elections or some shit; they'll obviously have to provide a logical explanation. And not just things like, I like this theme, I like the Meta Knight, I like the Poke Ball, yes SSBB+ should be approved. Some good explanations and reasoning should be used to support their views.

    What MeowMix said is completely right. Like what CM said, the QC members are humans too. They probably have a lot of other stuff to do, on PO and in real life, other than approving themes all day. Which therefore brings me back to Li Q. Assir's point of having a say or a vote in some reviews of themes, albeit not as significant as QC members', but nevertheless still some say. Most of the time, the non-QC members' approvals are either not taken into account or shunned, at least from my experience. (Correct me if I'm wrong. And yes I'm obviously open to feedback unlike some thememakers *cough*)
     
  28. Angel Flonne

    Angel Flonne Guest

    Here's my say on what's going on.
    Firstly, I agree with Rice (and Yuna, for that matter) that players are the heart of Mafia.
    Players are gone, Mafia's gone.
    Also, with reference to Li Q. Assir's post, I don't really think Mafia players should get a vote. Remember, if players just randomly go onto the Mafia Review, and bring their gang along, and approve not so balanced themes, what happens? On the other hand, Mafia Admins should not be given full control of Mafia. I think so, mainly because we ordinary players should not be immediately ignored when we post on Mafia Review.

    And now, I come to this FF debate. I don't get what this commotion is about. Biasness? Well, Mafia Admins don't post on a theme not because it's bad. Maybe they're busy. Also, as MeowMix has said, they look at better coders' themes first, because they think they have a higher chance if being good and not such a pain to read. Has anyone truly considered looking from the perspective of the currently stressed out due to all these arguments Mafia Admins? They have a whole lot of stuff to do, and yet they have to bother with this kind of stuff. We're being immature, aren't we?

    Let's not be so solemn, and let's think of the good things in life!
    I learnt a new awesome word besides jellyfish and unicorns -- Crayons!
    Let's live in harmony like the beautiful crayons of the rainbow.

    #Ultimate Irony
     
  29. Altaria

    Altaria (':

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    I wonder why nobody else bothered about them too...

    Also back to the point of the FF debacle. Well, it's like publishing a book. If you're J.K. Rowling and you have another fantasy series coming up of course publishers would look at your script first rather than a John Smith's albeit fantastic new story with a smashing plot and everything.
     
  30. Dark Phoenix

    Dark Phoenix Multidimensional Hero

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    Okay so i'm going to rattle off each of your problems in a list so we can keep it slightly organized.

    Try to make sure all feedback you give is somewhat constructive. Being harsh is encouraged, but saying something is bad without offering any help is not. People will not know where they are going wrong without proper feedback.

    OK, on this I slightly agree with you; I do notice that there are some QC members that will offer "reject + one sentence" explanations if at all. However, it's not hard to picture together why their post(s) were so short. In all instances (except one) there was already an explanation on why another QC member disapproved the theme and another QC member just reiterated what they said albeit in a shorter form. There is no need to go to Camp Redundancy of redundancies. If someone has listed an adequate explanation another QC member doesn't have to come up a new reason to agree that it should be rejected. If a theme has too many kills; it's too many kills. Clear cut.

    - Do not accept a theme without at least some discussion. While some themes may seem like they should be able to zoom through, there may be something overlooked.

    Disagree, because that's concluding that we did not overlook the theme ourselves and in itself you are subliminally calling QC incompetent. Whether that may or may not be your intention that's how it can be interpreted. We do not act together as a group so regardless one QC might approve while another may have questions; we will not always disagree (there are several themes in which I've disagreed with another QC member about approve/disapprove); so if a theme requires debate - debate will ensue.

    Another problem I have is that last time I checked, Mafia Review was used to post your themes to get feedback on it. This was done with my space theme, but it was locked because apparently "That's not the purpose of review" even if I did say that I didn't want to get accepted, I was looking for feedback so that when I made changes to the theme it would be right for submitting a second time.

    I believe you misinterpreted what CM meant. I do believe [in my interpretation] that you CAN upload your theme for APPROVAL, not solely for feedback. This is called Mafia Review - we are reviewing themes to be uploaded, not to help guide and forge a theme together. That is your job as themers - not ours. Some of us will offer guidance sure, but this is not the time nor place to be asking us to help you build a theme that's incomplete and/or not even functional yet. We have a lot of themes that are already commanding our attention which would bring me to a later point.

    ... biases

    I have no response to this because it is really absurd. There are a lot of themes that QC/Mod's have pending and they aren't accepted. If we were really partial to such staff they would have gone through with a land-slide - would it not? The themes approved now were approved not because of the author but because it's innovation/originality/play ability/creativity separates it from others. Nothing else influenced the argument and there are several themes to back up my claim.

    there are NON MA AND NON AUTH on qc. Just so you know. QC is comprised of MAs because we handled the mafia reviews so we are already familiar with some of the themes. Non-staff were added for that very same reason so if any more were needed I'm 100% positive the sMAs would add more.

    my last point to argue

    ... SLOW

    I cannot speak for all QC because I don't know that all of them are human (lol) - but just like you we have lives too! Just like you go to school, or go to work, some of us have jobs too you know. So we unfortunately cannot spend 24/7 365 reviewing your themes because there are other priorities we have. I do try to dedicate time on themes (as you see I'm writing this very early in the morning before anything is required of my attention) but sometimes that isn't guaranteed. Theme review takes a lot of time because some of the times when we post, we aren't delivering a decision but rather a suggestion or a desire to see something changed/balance/improved rather than saying 'accepted pending these changes' or 'declined until this happens' etc;. We do want discussion on themes not just clear cut cookie cutters. We currently have 3 pages of themes up for review - that's about 20 per page iirc, so anywhere from 41+ to 60 themes in the queue right now. Again, this goes back to my earlier statement on why we have don't allow themes that aren't up for review to be posted in this section. How can we accept these themes that you want us to - when there are themes that can be taking up our time until we realize it's not even up for review but just wants feedback? It's time consuming for both parties. We will not rush to satisfy your demands because that jeopardizes the success of this process. Sure it's flawed but at the moment it's what we have and both parties are dealing with it as we go on. I'm sure there are improvements being thought-up but until then this is the system that's being worked with.

    FF

    This theme was not accepted because Deria is auth. It was accepted because it has ranked consistently within the top 3 (it's top 1 iirc?) and is legitimately a solid theme. The game works at all sizes and it literally was a trend starter with the kefka role as many themes have tried to bank on the success of kefka (I believe Kronos came before Kuja so I can't bank on him as well) however this game has evolved a long way since it was first approved. Several users (non auth) also was excited to see themes back and there was a lot of demand for FF - not to mention I do believe it was one of the first themes to be uploaded onto the server (9/11 @ 17:58) - so it's not a wonder as to how it was uploaded so quickly. Since then, there has been a bountiful amount of additions to the queue so it's not a wonder as to why there's a stand-still to uploading as we don't have a "theme of the day" - we comment on what we see.

    I do believe I've addressed a lot of your problems - if not all of them. I hope I was able to clear anything up to you or any of the users. We really do have lives y'know.
     
  31. Mr.Anonymous

    Mr.Anonymous Member

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    It's funny because every time I check, it's always the themes that have been posted on page 1 that get looked at first heck I would even say the first probably 5 or so themes on page 1, it seems to me as though the QC never bother looking past page 1 for some unknown reason, probably because they're lazy or they just can't be bothered reviewing anything on page 2 or 3. And even when they're looked it, it's always like 3 or 4 days later.
     
  32. Altaria

    Altaria (':

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    best post of this thread award goes to dark phoenix

    i agree with everything that's been said except for this
    in one or two cases not a clear reason was provided for the rejection (well, again, correct me if i'm wrong). maybe there should be this criteria for approving/rejecting a theme or the explanations so maybe the thememakers will have a better, easier time correcting their themes therefore leading to more games in the channel and everyone being happy :D
     
  33. Dark Phoenix

    Dark Phoenix Multidimensional Hero

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    Again I wanted to say a majority of the time - not always has that been the case and I did agree that it could be a lot better. This is a new process so we are getting used to publicly showing our opinions and sometimes we may be a little bashful at gushing out what we yonder about themes. Again - there are times where there is a reject + a sentence; not real clear but for the most part another QC member will interject so just be patient with the reviews and don't be afraid to demand a question or two from those who reject your themes. It is your responsibility as a themer to always question others decisions and BE FLEXIBLE. The more you bend the more we'll bend. If you don't help us help you - then there will be others who will be less likely to want to work with you.
     
  34. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    /offended
    Anyway, I was implying that wiki QC is not like mafia QC (and should thus not decide if you have more chance of mafia QC). More QC is good unless if they suck, which you don't.

    People do "bend", but they are being ignored.



    Who's next?
     
  35. Dark Phoenix

    Dark Phoenix Multidimensional Hero

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    Not sure if srs. You mistook my "Theme of the day". I meant - we don't post what theme we will be reviewing collectively - or what themes to target. It's pick and choose - so there will be a lot of dysfunction going on as to what theme will be the next to be approved etc;. Also, I never said that will get them to go quicker, it's a long, process. This will not take days, it can take weeks. And that's how it was in mafia review - it could take some time. The acceptance bar has been raised (from 3 to 6) and there are negative counts as well (declines) so it's plausibly almost 600% times longer than what it used to be (if it takes 12 accepts and 6 declines).

    Also - fun killfest or not, it's a killfest. We are trying to improve the standards of the game, whether you see it or not is unfortunate but that's the direction it's heading. Take for example - burger king. BK had the most delicious chicken fries - yet they scrapped them for a newer menu. They say because it's healthier - they want to improve the food you would eat if you go there. Were people pissed? Yes - but that's the decision that want to go with and they stuck with it. Much like BK, we want to improve the quality of the games. We're trying to set standards of the themes that are accepted - if we allow themes like Vepix/Castle etc; - we're sending a message that it's OK to continue to build themes like these, when in reality it's not. Mafia deserves to be played at the higher level that's possible - much like playing video games, wouldn't you want to play the nice updated and improved game over the outdated and severely dull version that was released in 95? It's going to be a rough transition however if you will brave the wait the rewards will be grand.
     
  36. Shiny Rayquaza

    Shiny Rayquaza Your nightmare!

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    Vepix is a killfest, and it seems to get approved, while Castle, another killfest theme got rejected, now tell me why one killfest theme gets approved when another doesn't?
     
  37. Dark Phoenix

    Dark Phoenix Multidimensional Hero

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    I did not approve Vepix nor will I. I disagree with having either of them because it's just sending the message that those themes are acceptable. There's nothing over the top about them. I've shown my displeasure about having those themes there and I won't comment on why they're considered because it's beyond me.
     
  38. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    To be completely honest I actually like Rotom and understand why it's so popular. Same with Daypix and Vepix and Castle and similar themes; the problem is these themes are considered anti mafia due to their natures as being complete killfests and so they will never see the light of day on the channel, despite the playerbase's (and my personal) love for them.
     
  39. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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  40. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    Fun is an important factor of mafia, but actually being a mafia game is a slightly more important part of mafia.
     
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